Results & Analysis of @SOJ_PMDT 's PM 3.6b Stagelist Survey

[Kulprit]

As many of you know, SOJ made a survey to help with establishing a universal stagelist for PM going into the future. The results of the survey are right here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VqlK66koir6-VKooQ3Pw30jl6UoPBaJjLAZaDtT3eao/edit#gid=0
Ialso went a step further and analyzed the numbers myself and here's the complicated picture of it: https://twitter.com/TheOnlyKulprit/status/626657753432489984

So with the broken down stats of the survey, the stagelist would be as follows:

Starters:
Green Hill Zone
Smashville
Battlefield
Pokemon Stadium 2
Dreamland

Counterpicks:
WarioWare
Yoshi's Story (Melee)
Fountain of Dreams
Final Destination
Delfino's Secret

Oddly enough, my local scene (that I'm a TO in) has been running this exact stagelist with 3 bans about a month prior to the results of his survey, so that's an interesting thing to note.

What are your guys' opinions on the stagelist and other interpretations of the statistics provided by SOJ and myself? Hopefully this starts the discussion for having a consistent PM stagelist at future events sometime down the road.

- HSC|Kulprit

EDIT: I put the right link in regards to SOJ's original stats.

 

[ECHOnce]

Spoiler: original post

And...how exactly did you come up with those 10? I've barely even looked at your own chart (which you linked twice), and Yoshi's Island (Brawl) is still pretty far up there with CP votes, but not included.

EDIT: GHZ and DL were also voted to be CPs, not starters. I know that they had the next highest % votes for starters out of the remaining stages, but that doesn't mean they should be just to accommodate the 10 stage ruleset. GHZ was basically a tie so that's fine, but DL was definitely not voted as one.

EDIT2: OK, I retract my former opinion lol. But I still feel like it should be pointed out that DL...even though it was the 5th highest voted for starter, it had way too many CP votes to justify it (proportionately), in the same way that votes for banned stages should outweigh those of the other votes. There's still also a siginificant drop in support stages being starters after PS2; GHZ is still pretty up in the air.

By votes for Starter:
63.8% -- Battlefield
60.1% -- Smashville
52.9% -- Pokemon Stadium 2
20.0% -- Green Hill Zone
18.3% -- Dreamland
15.0% -- Yoshi's Story
11.3% -- Final Destination
8.4% -- Delfino's Secret
8.3% -- Fountain of Dreams
4.6% -- Yoshi's Island
4.4% -- Distant Planet
4.0% -- Norfair
3.1% -- WarioWare
2.2% -- Lylat Cruise
2.0% -- Castle Siege
1.6% -- Skyworld

By votes for CP:
70.7% -- WarioWare
57.8% -- Norfair
54.0% -- Yoshi's Island
52.1% -- Castle Siege
51.7% -- Distant Planet
50.0% -- Fountain of Dreams
48.1% -- Final Destination
44.6% -- Lylat Cruise
44.5% -- Delfino's Secret
32.0% -- Skyworld
29.3% -- Dreamland
26.1% -- Yoshi's Story
23.7% -- Green Hill Zone
1.6% -- Smashville
0.8% -- Pokemon Stadium 2
0.7% -- Battlefield

By votes for Banned:
58.7% -- Skyworld
42.0% -- Lylat Cruise
34.4% -- Castle Siege
15.5% -- Norfair
14.9% -- Yoshi's Island
14.6% -- Distant Planet
10.9% -- Delfino's Secret
5.2% -- WarioWare
5.0% -- Yoshi's Story
3.1% -- Dreamland
3.1% -- Fountain of Dreams
2.6% -- Green Hill Zone
0.7% -- Final Destination
0.6% -- Pokemon Stadium 2
0.5% -- Smashville
0.3% -- Battlefield​

 

[Kulprit]

The main reason why I included Dreamland in the Starters was because to have 5 starters, I like to run 1 small, 3 medium, 1 large; and Dreamland was the best stage to have as the small stage. Besides. I would never run Yoshi's Story WITH Green Hill Zone to have 2 small and 3 medium stages as a starter list. I was just imagining the top5 for starters by the numbers, as well as in the TO perspective.

 

[Kulprit]

I forgot to include these other notes that I wrote down to analyze my chart so here they are:

Other Notes:

- If they reasked opinions on Delfino, it would be closer to 5% than 15% since it's become a staple CP in most Singles lists & sometimes even a starter for Dubs.
- Conservative TOs, use 10 stages:
Starters;
GHZ, SV, PS2, BF, DL
CPs:
FoD, WW, YS, FD, DS
- If TO is more lenient, use 13 stages
Starters;
same
CPs;
same + DP, YI, Norfair
- If more than 10 stages would be on the list;
#11 stage added would be DP
#12 stage added would be YI
#13 stage added would be Norfair

-Defintite bans;
Siege: 1 in 3 voted Banned
Lylat: 2 in 5 voted Banned
Skyworld: 3 IN 5 VOTED BANNED

GHZ had smallest Starter Only vs CP only gap: 3.7%

All stagelists should now have AT LEAST those 10 core stages. Depending on the TO, the application of those 3 other controversial stages will vary a little.

 

[Narpas_sword]

I worry that opinions for stages aren't based on the new 3.6 boundaries for some of them (Distant Planet mainly) and people not understanding the size of Delfino Secrets.

I see no reason to include Dreamland in my list.

Middle 5 on bottom and centre rows works fine for me.

 

[Kulprit]

There's no reason to have Delfino on the list while Dreamland being off it. A stage that has moving platforms, big blastzones, and walls (subtly important) should not be a starter, it should be a counterpick. And I'm not the only one with this opinion, if you look at the survey stats, 99 votes for starter VS 525 for CP for Delfino is drastically different from 257 votes for starter VS 411 for CP for Dreamland.

 

[Narpas_sword]

So walls:

With GHZ/BF/SV/PS2/DS

That's 2 with walls, 3 without. one is large, the other is small. Sounds like a good mix.
yes walls make a difference. so, there should really be a decent balance of them, right?

Moving Platforms:
SV has one and GHZ has one, so it's obviously not that much of an issue.

BlastZones:

Dreamland Wall Blastzones: -255 and 255
Delfino Wall BlastZones: -235 and 235
(FD is -246 and 246)

Dreamland Ceiling: 250
Delfino Ceiling: 211

So it's shorter and thinner. It's not nearly as 'big' as DL64.

I think the ceiling could be a little lower.
It's certainly much more interesting than "lets take battlefield, and make it a bit bigger and stick that on the starter list too"

The other thing is Distant planet, which is now quite a lot different to Ps2. Definitely deserves to be a counterpick over DL64 which again, is just BFXL

 

[Kulprit]

You can't really compare the moving platforms of Delfino (three) to Smashville or Green Hill Zone (both only have one). Fountain has 2 moving platforms and it's a counterpick. And the fact that Delfino also has the middle platform vanish for part of of the time baffles me that it could be a starter since the platforms aren't consistently in the same spots. Now, I know you'll say "Well GHZ and SV platform move as well, so they're not technically in the same spot either!" To attest to that argument, those platforms have 1 motion (half circle for GHZ, straight for SV). Delfino's change angles, heights, positioning relative to the ledge.
It doesn't matter if you personally think DL isn't "as interesting" shouldn't be a starter because it's just a "bigger Battlefield." Dreamland is by definition a more neutral stage since it's more static than Delfino is. And if you wanna get technical, Dreamland DOES have walls, just not to the bottom of the stage. So that balance of 2 w/ walls & 3 w/o is still met.

 

[Narpas_sword]

Dreamland is by definition a more neutral stage since it's more static than Delfino is.

This is entirely false and seems to be what you're basing the rest of your post on.

If 'technically' dreamland does have walls, then you are countering your own argument for excluding DS due to walls.
Your own sentence of "A stage that has moving platforms, big blastzones, and walls (subtly important) should not be a starter, it should be a counterpick." can't possibly be used to support DL64 as a starter.


My main reasoning for excluding DL is that it is far too giant to be on a starter. it's clearly a counter pick material.
We don't have a tiny stage in starters, so why would we have a giant?

the starters have 3 medium, a 'small medium' and a 'large medium'.

If you have DL64 you need to go back to having something like YS on the other end of the scale.

 

[JOE!]

Delphino is also new, scary and not in muh maylay so ofc its not gonna be voted as a starter by the general public yeh

 

[moonfolk]

I wish they'd make Delfino's actually more stastic. The platforms are really dumb. They move and change way too much for a starter. Dreamland also sucks as a big starter because of whispy. I think the best bet would be a Delfino's with static platforms, a reskinned Norfair (see Theytah's Metroid Lab texture) with static platforms (lowered a little too), or a whispy-free DL (iirc is impossible). Otherwise, I see no better "large" stage than PS2, and they could easily, EASILY make one. I think the PMDT has chosen not to, and we'll just have to live with it.

 

[Narpas_sword]

Distant planet is a pretty great big stage.

 

[TreK]

I'm an Ivysaur, my CPs are Castle Siege, Lylat and Skyworld, and I find this list offensive.

 

[skellitorman]

I wish they'd make Delfino's actually more stastic. The platforms are really dumb. They move and change way too much for a starter. Dreamland also sucks as a big starter because of whispy. I think the best bet would be a Delfino's with static platforms, a reskinned Norfair (see Theytah's Metroid Lab texture) with static platforms (lowered a little too), or a whispy-free DL (iirc is impossible).

Delfino’s Secret has a unique platform layout among all the starters and even the counterpicks. It would definitely be a great starter stage (replacing Dreamland) if the platforms were static, and I believe it is likely to see more approval, should this change occur.

 

[Narpas_sword]

i still dont understand why a stage needs to have static platforms to be a starter.

 

[MegaMissingno]

Delfino's should be the starter and Dream Land should be the counterpick. Please, explain how moving platforms is a bigger impact on matchups than DL's Ridley-sized blast zones.

 

[Poilu]

i still dont understand why a stage needs to have static platforms to be a starter.

Because many see a neutral stage as a stage that is static, has near average blastzones has not weird platforms placement and maximum 3 of them so they don't advantage certain characters.
I'm part of this group.
The stage being static make it so it doesn't favor one of the player's character because of some setup it may bring. For Delfino Plazza, there is a setup where two plateforms join together and make one big plateform which is relatively high. This is a great deal for the Lucario Vs Charz MU since Chard can combos Lucario way easier and it becomes harder for Lucario to approach him while he has more option to flee.
To be honest, there are other setups in this stage that advantages Lucario over Chard but my point is that some characters may find only setups they like or many that disadventage them thus preventing the stage from being neutral.

I don't want to have only BF and PS2 as a starter though and I feel like there should be 3 averages, one tiny and one big stage as starters and DL is the closest to a neutral stage that is big for me. If there were a non moving version of Delfino Plazza or a static little larger (and shorter) version of FoD that would have been perfect.

Concerning the stage list, I tottaly agree with it. In fact, that would have been my stagelist for 3.6. Perhaps Norfair has a right to be in it as a CP. I'm not OK with the fireemblem stage because of its really weird interractions and strange main plateform and I don't like the StarFox one because it is too much of a CP for some characters and was glitchy on 3.5 (don't know if it still is on 3.6b though), futhermore, this attrocious background prevents me from focusing on the game, but it is easily removable I'd hear.

 

[Narpas_sword]

The stage being static make it so it doesn't favor one of the player's character because of some setup it may bring. For Delfino Plazza, there is a setup where two plateforms join together and make one big plateform which is relatively high. This is a great deal for the Lucario Vs Charz MU since Chard can combos Lucario way easier and it becomes harder for Lucario to approach him while he has more option to flee.
To be honest, there are other setups in this stage that advantages Lucario over Chard but my point is that some characters may find only setups they like or many that disadventage them thus preventing the stage from being neutral.

Your reasoning doesnt make sense though.

"The stage being static make it so it doesn't favor one of the player's character because of some setup it may bring."
but inversely a static stage may favour a different character.

Hell, the changing would eliminate any more skewed patters because they arent there long.

And there's no such thing as neutral, we're looking at it being a starter. Not trying to pick stages that are "neutral"

 

[Poilu]

I think that starters should be neutral to prevent the one winning rock paper scisors having a huge advantage over his opponent.
And I think 3 platforms in a "classic" formation, or the one on PS2 keep the stage neutral compared to none at all or moving ones.

 

[skellitorman]

i still dont understand why a stage needs to have static platforms to be a starter.

Please, explain how moving platforms is a bigger impact on matchups than DL's Ridley-sized blast zones.

You are both looking at this from the wrong perspectives.

It’s not why moving platforms are bad (or worse than "x"), but (from the player perspective) why have Delfino's Secret over Dreamland? Most players are used to Dreamland by now and Delfino’s Secret was supposed to be its replacement. Yet players would rather deal with larger blastzones on a “bigger Battlefield,” than deal with frequently awkward and unintuitive platform placements.

Every other starter stage and counterpick have intuitive platform placements whether they are static or not (FoD, GHZ, SV). Delfino’s Secret is a perfectly viable starter stage that could easily replace Dreamland with its already unique platform placements being static. The movement of the platforms are both unwarranted (due to its already unique but solid platform placements) and unwanted (by at least a significant number of players).

I have actually already modded Delfino's Secret (for research purposes) to have static platforms. If anyone would like to try it out and give feedback, then please let me know.

 

[Poilu]

That's kinda the point I wanted to make, but better said.

 

[Narpas_sword]

Exactly, people want dreamland because of tradition. Not because it's a good starter.

Our rules shouldn't be chosen on tradition. There are better stages available.

I'd even say distant planet is a better starter than dl64. But people see it as too similar to ps2. Ps2 has a shorter stage width and smaller blast zones and different platforms though.

 

[Poilu]

I don't think that DL is similar to PS2 whatsoever. And I don't chose DL64 for "tradition" but for the lack of another good neutral big stage.

 

[Narpas_sword]

I don't think that DL is similar to PS2 whatsoever. And I don't chose DL64 for "tradition" but for the lack of another good neutral big stage.

People say that Distant Planet is too similar to PS2.

1. Stop saying neutral. The term is starter. No stage is neutral.

2. There is another good big stage, Delfino. Which was purpose built to take the slot of DL64.

 

[moonfolk]

People say that Distant Planet is too similar to PS2.

1. Stop saying neutral. The term is starter. No stage is neutral.

Well, yeah, it's a starter, but the starters should be more neutral than not. I think a clearer definition would be "less variable and more well-rounded than counterpicks" but that's a mouthful that "neutral" sums up nicely.

The layout and design of Delfino's is still too dynamic to be a starter in my opinion. I'm not saying that starters shouldn't have moving platforms, just that the platforms should never combine or move vertically, which is what I think most people have issues with.

I think a reverse-battlefield style 3 platform setup would be cool and good. It would leave a lot of the stage open, which would mean you couldn't platform juggle from below people on the two side platforms.

I too think that DL isn't a good idea for a starter. If anything, the best for a big starter as is would probably be Distant Planet.

 

[Narpas_sword]

i think most people have issues with it because they havent taken time to watch the layout.
It's a new stage and people are scared of new things.

But its great as a starter, has no transformations that are totally whack. and has good blastzones for a large stage.

 

[Deleted member]

in the most intellectual way i can say this, dreamland is ****ing ******** and needs to die

 

[Kulprit]

http://imgur.com/a/uFk75 Here's my rough sketches of how the platforms change on Delfino. I'll be referring to the # next to each transformation when I'm talking about this.

There are most definitely "whack" formations of the platforms, like on 5 (where the platforms are never constant for 20 seconds, which defeats the purpose of relying on using those platforms during that time), 7 (which gives players offstage another place to recover; the reason why this one is whack is because it only occurs once throughout the entire cycle), 11/12 (2 platforms combine into 1 and never stops moving for 20 seconds; also makes it easier to escape tech chases [depends on the MU a little], which makes those characters weaker), and 17 (2 platforms stacked on top of each other for a little bit, and then the red platform disappears completely 20 seconds later, which doesn't make sense for consistency as a starter).

Overall, players pick the stage because the blast zones favor them and the main stage is of similar size to DL/FD. They don'T pick the stage because they like a certain formation of the the ration of platforms. Which is why this stage should stay as a CP. There are still numerous stagelist that have DL as starter while Delfino is banned. Just keep that in mind.

 

[GP&B]

in the most intellectual way i can say this, dreamland is ****ing ******** and needs to die

Gonna second this and also question why in the world Melee changed the blast zones to be ****in massive.

 

[Narpas_sword]

There are still numerous stagelist that have DL as starter while Delfino is banned. Just keep that in mind.

This is the appeal to tradition I mentioned.


As for the other platform arrangements:
Constatly moving: not really a problem, seeing as we can deal with that in GHZ and SV
Offstage platform: see SV (and not that most people opt for the platform as a 'mixup' so it's actually fairly easy to predict)
Combine to 1: again, Smashville


The patterns really aren't that bad.

 

[Kulprit]

This is the appeal to tradition I mentioned.

As for the other platform arrangements:
Constatly moving: not really a problem, seeing as we can deal with that in GHZ and SV
Offstage platform: see SV (and not that most people opt for the platform as a 'mixup' so it's actually fairly easy to predict)
Combine to 1: again, Smashville

The patterns really aren't that bad.

GHZ and SV's platforms are in a SET pattern. Meaning it is easy for players to know where the platform will be going at any point of the match. The platforms of Delfino are hardly ever moving in the same direction. In fact, the platforms never have a consistent pattern of how they move.

Fact of the matter is, the majority of players would like Dreamland as starter as opposed to Delfino because consistency is key so starters don't give one player more advantage than the other. This is shown by the results of the survey.

 

[mimgrim]

in the most intellectual way i can say this, dreamland is ****ing ******** and needs to die

I feel the same way about Distant Planet.

 

[Narpas_sword]

GHZ and SV's platforms are in a SET pattern. Meaning it is easy for players to know where the platform will be going at any point of the match. The platforms of Delfino are hardly ever moving in the same direction. In fact, the platforms never have a consistent pattern of how they move.

Fact of the matter is, the majority of players would like Dreamland as starter as opposed to Delfino because consistency is key so starters don't give one player more advantage than the other. This is shown by the results of the survey.

And I still say the results are skewed due to appeal to tradition.

 

[Poilu]

I studied the blastzones, the movement of the platforms and the size of the stage itself and I concluded that Delfino wouldn't make a good starter. Not by tradition, not because I'm afraid of new stages.
To prove that, there is a simple example : There are some new stages I hate, and some I think are really good and well designed.
Personnaly, I hate the Lylat one, for being ridiculously tiny, with weird platforms an edge even thinner than Melee's BF and the Ganon glitch on it (sometime Ganon grabs the edge and release it automaticaly one frame later) and this obnoxious background (which is the only thing removable). I hate DP for its former glitch that killed many time in teams, for its stupidly ridiculous leaves-platforms which just makes advance technics harder for no reason, brings no strategy just for the sake of having a new mechanic (otherwise, I think the stage is a good ... CP, not a starter. The Blastzone aren't that big, but the main platform is huge making CG easier for many characters and clearly advantaging some other characters) and I hate Norfair for more personnal reasons (Its edge interaction with Lucario's up B is glitchy sometime) and I think its platforms are way too high making me feel that some victories (whether mines or my opponent's) were more about stage choice than skills overall making it unfair.
On another hand, I love SV, which is relativly neutral (Not perfectly neutral, I agree that there not perfectly neutral stage and never will), its new mechanic that reminds a little of the YS cloud but WAY better thought and its shape overall. I love GHZ because the platform is a nice tool to bring some new strategies for all characters even though at first I thought it would be a hindrance more than else. And I loved the new BF and thought it was way more neutral when it wasn't shaped as the melee one (which I feel was changed just for meleeifing a little more PM)

So no, it's not by tradition or because I'm a melee player too. I love some new stages, I hate others. I have looked into everyone of them and discussed it with many people so I am not limited by my own experience only. Not just because I don't want to change old habits.

 

[MegaMissingno]

The layout and design of Delfino's is still too dynamic to be a starter in my opinion. I'm not saying that starters shouldn't have moving platforms, just that the platforms should never combine or move vertically, which is what I think most people have issues with.

Why can't starters be dynamic? Just because?

 

[skellitorman]

I really dislike being redundant, but it seems that my previous post wasn’t clear enough to a few of you.

Exactly, people want dreamland because of tradition. Not because it's a good starter.

The information in my post does not imply that Dreamland was chosen over Delfino because of tradition.

The community have deemed Dreamland acceptable because they have played on it, and deemed it the best option as the last starter, regardless of whether or not their opinion is logical.

i think most people have issues with it because they havent taken time to watch the layout.

It's a new stage and people are scared of new things.

The community doesn’t want to play on a stage where platform placements are awkward and unintuitive to them. Every other stage (including counterpicks) that has dynamic platforms are not awkward and are intuitive (the movement is easily followable and predictable), so why would the community want to accept such a stage when there are other ones available that are better for them?

But its great as a starter, has no transformations that are totally whack. and has good blastzones for a large stage.

Your opinion on the transformations being not “totally whack” is an opinion that is not shared by a good portion of the community.

The patterns really aren't that bad.

Saying that the platform patterns “really aren't that bad” doesn’t mean that the rest of the community is suddenly going to become inclined to agree with you.

There are still numerous stagelist that have DL as starter while Delfino is banned. Just keep that in mind.

This is the appeal to tradition I mentioned.

Dreamland is a starter while Delfino is banned, not because of tradition, but because it is deemed as better. Even if it was chosen out of tradition, the goal here is to have Delfino replace Dreamland. Therefore Delfino needs to be good enough for the community to accept over Dreamland, and even more so if it’s also chosen because of tradition.

Why can't starters be dynamic? Just because?

The issue isn’t that dynamic stages can’t be starters, as we already have Green Hill Zone and Smashville as proof of that. It is that stages that are too dynamic (such as Delfino) shouldn’t be starters, hence the results. It is deemed as too dynamic by a significant amount of people, and any stage that is too dynamic is seen as a stage that shouldn’t be a starter (by the community), and that’s what counts. Logic is irrelevant here.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In short: Delfino over Dreamland isn’t going to happen because the community doesn’t like Delfino more than Dreamland.

It isn’t liked over Dreamland because Delfino’s platform placements are frequently awkward and unintuitive. Hence it is too dynamic.

The platform movement is a problem for most people whether you realize this or not.

If Delfino is to replace Dreamland, then it should be more appealing to the community. I propose keeping the already unique platform placements static.

I find no sufficient reasoning as to why it should be kept dynamic over the idea of it being static.

 

[moonfolk]

Why can't starters be dynamic? Just because?

With that logic, why aren't Fountain of Dreams or Yoshi's Brawl starters? Why not make Saffron City a starter?

Because they have unintuitive platform movement and other elements that create a more chaotic environment at best, a polarizing one at worst. They are too complex. A neutral stage (and I'm calling "starters" "neutrals" from now on because) doesn't have to be "static" in that things don't move, but it needs to have 1) few moving elements with easy-to-predict patterns, 2) few stage "sections" for lack of a better word (take Saffron for instance, with it's ~7 different stage parts), and 3) no interrupting bull**** (see Whispy or Randall or Thwomps or the fish on Infinite Glacier). Otherwise, you create scenarios where the stage gets in the way, which can be equated to Brawl's tripping mechanic; random or too-difficult-to-predict elements that inhibit optimal gameplay.

A counter-pick can have more of these elements, but still without being too drastic. I don't think Delfino's, Dreamland, Distant Planet, or Norfair are bad stages, I just think that without tweaks, they belong in the counter-picks. When it comes to doubles, I have no idea, since I never play doubles.

 

[Downdraft]

So walls:

With GHZ/BF/SV/PS2/DS

That's 2 with walls, 3 without. one is large, the other is small. Sounds like a good mix.
yes walls make a difference. so, there should really be a decent balance of them, right?

Moving Platforms:
SV has one and GHZ has one, so it's obviously not that much of an issue.

BlastZones:

Dreamland Wall Blastzones: -255 and 255
Delfino Wall BlastZones: -235 and 235
(FD is -246 and 246)

Dreamland Ceiling: 250
Delfino Ceiling: 211

So it's shorter and thinner. It's not nearly as 'big' as DL64.

I think the ceiling could be a little lower.
It's certainly much more interesting than "lets take battlefield, and make it a bit bigger and stick that on the starter list too"

The other thing is Distant planet, which is now quite a lot different to Ps2. Definitely deserves to be a counterpick over DL64 which again, is just BFXL

Isn't one of Dreamland's strengths that better recoveries help disadvantaged characters on that map, e.g. Zelda vs Falcon? Inner 5 of bottom two rows sounds nice since any list only needs 3 small stages rather than 4 or 5. Also, what's wrong with Norfair?

 

[Kulprit]

Isn't one of Dreamland's strengths that better recoveries help disadvantaged characters on that map, e.g. Zelda vs Falcon? Inner 5 of bottom two rows sounds nice since any list only needs 3 small stages rather than 4 or 5. Also, what's wrong with Norfair?

The main problem with Norfair is that it's FD 75+% of the time w/ 2 FD-esque platforms, while 25-% of the time it's a conditional PS2, but the platforms are still long enough to tech chase on as if it's FD. The main problem with this is that the platforms are unintuitive and many times out of reach to be of any use. I just don't see the point of running the stage when FD and PS2 are both legal, which is every PM stagelist ever.

 

[Kulprit]

My main reasoning for excluding DL is that it is far too giant to be on a starter. it's clearly a counter pick material.
We don't have a tiny stage in starters, so why would we have a giant?

the starters have 3 medium, a 'small medium' and a 'large medium'.

If you have DL64 you need to go back to having something like YS on the other end of the scale.

BlastZones:

Dreamland Wall Blastzones: -255 and 255
Delfino Wall BlastZones: -235 and 235
(FD is -246 and 246)

Dreamland Ceiling: 250
Delfino Ceiling: 211

So it's shorter and thinner. It's not nearly as 'big' as DL64.

I think the ceiling could be a little lower.
It's certainly much more interesting than "lets take battlefield, and make it a bit bigger and stick that on the starter list too"

The other thing is Distant planet, which is now quite a lot different to Ps2. Definitely deserves to be a counterpick over DL64 which again, is just BFXL

You're also very flip-floppy with your opinions. You don't want Dreamland to be a starter since you deem it as a "Battlefield Xtra Large", but including Yoshi's Story on the starters is contradictary of your opinion since you wouldn't want it either since it could be considered "Battfield Xtra Small".