Results & Analysis of @SOJ_PMDT 's PM 3.6b Stagelist Survey

[Rawkobo]

You're also very flip-floppy with your opinions. You don't want Dreamland to be a starter since you deem it as a "Battlefield Xtra Large", but including Yoshi's Story on the starters is contradictary of your opinion since you wouldn't want it either since it could be considered "Battfield Xtra Small".

not to butt in or anything but it's also contradictory to the whole "static is better" thing to run yoshi's story or green hill zone as starters, and for that matter, smashville, but i'm sure you'd come to those stages' defense more quickly because they've "always been this way"

pretty sure platforms being static has been considered a weak argument for a long time and what we should be more concerned about are boundaries and platform layouts

i generally agree that there are problems with delfino but it and fountain are a hell of a lot more neutral than dreamland

 

[Kulprit]

not to butt in or anything but it's also contradictory to the whole "static is better" thing to run yoshi's story or green hill zone as starters, and for that matter, smashville

I never said static was better. I said consistency is better. For starters, knowing where the platforms will be at any given moment in the match for survivability, comboing, etc. are absolutely crucial. SV and GHZ's platforms move in a consistent and obvious path to trace. Delfino has the problem that nearly every formation is different from the last, which is the exact opposite of consistency. Delfino fits better as a CP since it would be picked when the loser likes higher & more variable platforms, but doesn't rely on them for tech chases, combos, etc.

With that being said...

i generally agree that there are problems with delfino but it and fountain are a hell of a lot more neutral than dreamland

tl;dr If a stage isn't consistent with its patterns, then it shouldn't be a starter. This is the category I would put Delfino down as: inconsistent & unworthy as a starter. And if you're realistically thinking, you have to have a large stage as a starter, so I don't know why FoD was brought up in the first place (as no TO would run 1S-3M-1L and have the lone starter small stage be FoD > GHZ or YS).

 

[Rawkobo]

I never said static was better. I said consistency is better. For starters, knowing where the platforms will be at any given moment in the match for survivability, comboing, etc. are absolutely crucial. SV and GHZ's platforms move in a consistent and obvious path to trace. Delfino has the problem that nearly every formation is different from the last, which is the exact opposite of consistency. Delfino fits better as a CP since it would be picked when the loser likes higher & more variable platforms, but doesn't rely on them for tech chases, combos, etc.

With that being said...



tl;dr If a stage isn't consistent with its patterns, then it shouldn't be a starter. This is the category I would put Delfino down as: inconsistent & unworthy as a starter. And if you're realistically thinking, you have to have a large stage as a starter, so I don't know why FoD was brought up in the first place (as no TO would run 1S-3M-1L and have the lone starter small stage be FoD > GHZ or YS).

then that would make norfair more consistent as a starter because its platforms would be following set rotations assuming they're lowered to reasonable levels (which should more than likely be done), would it not? it would fit the large stage demographic and not have an inconsistent platform rotation.

dreamland doesn't fit the neutral demographic as a large stage in the way ps2 does. ask around about camping.

edit: i also noticed you didn't go into anything regarding randall. i'm glad you didn't, it's a hassle to discuss.

 

[Narpas_sword]

You're also very flip-floppy with your opinions. You don't want Dreamland to be a starter since you deem it as a "Battlefield Xtra Large", but including Yoshi's Story on the starters is contradictary of your opinion since you wouldn't want it either since it could be considered "Battfield Xtra Small".

I don't have YI on my starters...

GHZ, BF, SV, PS2, DS

 

[mimgrim]

The main problem with Norfair is that it's FD 75+% of the time w/ 2 FD-esque platforms, while 25-% of the time it's a conditional PS2, but the platforms are still long enough to tech chase on as if it's FD. The main problem with this is that the platforms are unintuitive and many times out of reach to be of any use. I just don't see the point of running the stage when FD and PS2 are both legal, which is every PM stagelist ever.

Lol.

And Smashville and Green Hill Zone are FD 90+% of the time but they are fine?

And lol at Nofair being a conditional PS2 at any moment in the stage. Distant Planet is more of a PS2 clone then Nofair will ever be.

The platforms are far from intuitive and a good amount of character can still reach the platforms at their max height without the need of Up Special.

 

[Kulprit]

Lol.
And lol at Nofair being a conditional PS2 at any moment in the stage. Distant Planet is more of a PS2 clone then Nofair will ever be.

The main problem with Norfair is that it's FD 75+% of the time w/ 2 FD-esque platforms, while 25-% of the time it's a conditional PS2, but the platforms are still long enough to tech chase on as if it's FD. The main problem with this is that the platforms are unintuitive and many times out of reach to be of any use. I just don't see the point of running the stage when FD and PS2 are both legal, which is every PM stagelist ever.

Good job for misreading it, buddy. I didn't say "at any moment of the stage" for PS2 lol

Lol.

And Smashville and Green Hill Zone are FD 90+% of the time but they are fine?

I wasn't only referring to the main stage. Norfair has VERY similar blastzones to FD. And in regards to SV, the platform comes into play more than 10% of the time lmao. And GHZ is flat, but it's different enough from FD by having the medium blastzones on a small stage and the wals that go straight down.

 

[Narpas_sword]

Good job for misreading it, buddy. I didn't say "at any moment of the stage" for PS2 lol
.

I think you handed in you "I can be snarky when people misread my posts' card when you misinterpreted mine =p

@Star ☆ (god it's difficult to tag you)
You had some thoughts on delfino and DL when i was talking to you last night?

 

[Kulprit]

With the full 3.6 build released, here are some added thoughts:

Wario Land on & Wario Ware now banned (lmao)

The slight changes to Delfino's platforms make me happy

The alternate layout to Bowser's Castle makes me want to start a discussion on its legality. Thoughts?

 

[MegaMissingno]

The Bowser's Castle alt would be nice if we didn't already have a dozen other Battlefields. We don't need another one. Plus, I think it's better to just stay away from alts in general since they can make striking and random messy.

Also, I just want to point out since you were harping on about consistency a bit ago, Delfino and Norfair are consistent. The platforms cycle through the exact same patterns in order.

 

[Poilu]

With the full 3.6 build released, here are some added thoughts:

Wario Land on & Wario Ware now banned (lmao)

The slight changes to Delfino's platforms make me happy

Why ? I have only played the netplay build so far and WW was the same as before. Didn't the stage change just aestheticaly on the official release ?

Delfino's seems better like that, I have yet to play a lot on it though.

 

[Narpas_sword]

he's meaning 'WarioLand' On, and "wario ware" (which is the alt) banned.

 

[Poilu]

Oh, I missread that, thank you.
I don't see the mist they talked about on Delfino's, have i *mist* something ? (Sorry ...)

 

[Narpas_sword]

the background elements are darker.

 

[Kulprit]

The Bowser's Castle alt would be nice if we didn't already have a dozen other Battlefields. We don't need another one. Plus, I think it's better to just stay away from alts in general since they can make striking and random messy.

Also, I just want to point out since you were harping on about consistency a bit ago, Delfino and Norfair are consistent. The platforms cycle through the exact same patterns in order.

Good points about Bowser's Castle.

And for Delfino, the platform transformations (in 3.6b) were never in the same order, as I proved by this (which was linked on Page 1 of this thread) : http://imgur.com/a/uFk75

I haven't drawn out the formations for 3.6 full, but when I looked at them again, it didn't seem to follow a consistent pattern. I may be wrong though once I go back and draw it out again.

 

[wiiztec]

GHZ and SV's platforms are in a SET pattern. Meaning it is easy for players to know where the platform will be going at any point of the match. The platforms of Delfino are hardly ever moving in the same direction. In fact, the platforms never have a consistent pattern of how they move.

DS platforms are on a set cycle. it's long but you can learn it if you put in the effort

 

[Boondocker]

1) Neither Delfinos or Dream land should be starters people. DS is in fact too dynamic. Maybe the PMDT can make it so there are only 3 different transformations. As of now there are a lot that arent appealing to me at alI. I would also like to see more time in between transformations, like maybe 1 minute between each.

2) Distant planet should replace Ps2 in the starters. They are very similar but Ps2 has a very small ceiling and should be a counterpick because of that.

3) Rumble falls is long but it has small side blast zones, making it a rather average stage. I dont see much of anything wrong with it. If this stage is hated for some reason, please explain why.

Here is my list:

Starters:
Distant Planet (long)
Rumble Falls (long with close blast zones, effectively average)
Smashville (average)
Bf (average)
Ghz (thin)

Counterpicks:
Dreamland
Delfinos
Yoshi's Island
Ps2
Final D
FoD
Wario land
Yoshis story

Another option is to ban Rumble falls and just make Yoshi's island a starter. This removes the bias twards long stages, but it adds jank to the starters.

 

[Juken]

At the risk of sounding incompetent, I had hoped for Bowser's castle to get an alt stage that is was a little more than just a "battlefield clone," as some would say. It's was a bit disappointing to see that the stage wasn't something more creative like the Vs. Bowser map I brought up before, since you guys went through all the trouble of giving Bowser his own logo and theme for some reason. The current BC alt is just redundant, even competitively.

And a bit off of the subject, but the tracks are kind of all over the place now, with there being 4 or so Mario Kart and racing related tracks on Bowser's castle, which is just awkward, old sounding bob-omb battlefield playing on delfino, and Pokemon Stadium Melee music playing on Saffron City instead of going over a couple of the underwhelming PKMN Stadium 2 tracks and having the old saffron music back for Saffron.

Oh, and the lack of brawl FD when you guys brought back melee BF was pretty strange. Did you guys not want to have Brawl FD as the main stage showing up on the SSS like Brawl BF has it?

 

[MegaMissingno]

1) Neither Delfinos or Dream land should be starters people. DS is in fact too dynamic. Maybe the PMDT can make it so there are only 3 different transformations. As of now there are a lot that arent appealing to me at alI. I would also like to see more time in between transformations, like maybe 1 minute between each.

What does being "too dynamic" have to do with starter/counterpick? Unless you can explain how dynamic elements inherently skew matchups always, and do so more than the stage you propose switch with it, that's irrelevant. "I don't like it" is not a good rationale for deciding which are starters and which are counterpicks.

 

[Boondocker]

What does being "too dynamic" have to do with starter/counterpick? Unless you can explain how dynamic elements inherently skew matchups always, and do so more than the stage you propose switch with it, that's irrelevant. "I don't like it" is not a good rationale for deciding which are starters and which are counterpicks.

Because the other starters arent dynamic. If you want a stage that changes so much, it is probably to throw your opponents combo's off and should be a counterpick. Im not the best at explaining it so ill just leave it at that. However, I also believe that delfino's is too big to be a starter as well, having the second highest ceiling this side of dreamland.

 

[Narpas_sword]

However, I also believe that delfino's is too big to be a starter as well, having the second highest ceiling this side of dreamland.

Delfinos ceiling is 211

compared to

DL64: 250
GHZ: 205
BF: 200
SV: 194
PS2: 180

It's much closer in line with other stages than DL64 was.

 

[Boondocker]

Delfinos ceiling is 211

compared to

DL64: 250
GHZ: 205
BF: 200
SV: 194
PS2: 180

It's much closer in line with other stages than DL64 was.

Right, but if someone wants to counterpick to a high ceiling stage, they have nowhere to go but dreamland. Ps2 is by far the lowest of the long stages. Do you think Distant planet should replace it in the starters?

 

[Narpas_sword]

If someone (like myself as samus) wants a high ceiling, I can go to DP, Fod, GHZ or DS.
No, I don't think DP should be a starter.

When I'm TO, DL64 isn't on my list at all.

I go for

Starters:

Green Hill
Battlefield
Smashville
Pokemon Stadium 2
Delfino Secrets

CounterPicks:

Warioland
Fountain of Dreams
Final Destination
Yoshi Island B
Distant Planet

 

[MegaMissingno]

Because the other starters arent dynamic. If you want a stage that changes so much, it is probably to throw your opponents combo's off and should be a counterpick. Im not the best at explaining it so ill just leave it at that. However, I also believe that delfino's is too big to be a starter as well, having the second highest ceiling this side of dreamland.

So? Why does that matter? Surely it should be the other way around, since the rest aren't dynamic we should have at least one that is.

 

[Boondocker]

If someone (like myself as samus) wants a high ceiling, I can go to DP, Fod, GHZ or DS.
No, I don't think DP should be a starter.

When I'm TO, DL64 isn't on my list at all.

I go for

Starters:

Green Hill
Battlefield
Smashville
Pokemon Stadium 2
Delfino Secrets

CounterPicks:

Warioland
Fountain of Dreams
Final Destination
Yoshi Island B
Distant Planet

If someone (like myself as samus) wants a high ceiling, I can go to DP, Fod, GHZ or DS.
No, I don't think DP should be a starter.

When I'm TO, DL64 isn't on my list at all.

I go for

Starters:

Green Hill
Battlefield
Smashville
Pokemon Stadium 2
Delfino Secrets

CounterPicks:

Warioland
Fountain of Dreams
Final Destination
Yoshi Island B
Distant Planet

This is a pretty good list, but surely it wouldnt hurt having dreamland and yoshi's story as counterpicks. And why dont you think distant planet should be a starter? You might as well get rid of it if its not, since its pretty redundant and the only character that I know of that cps there is Samus.

FoD, Ghz, and Distant planet dont really have "high ceilings". They are slightly above average, being less than .5 standard deviations higher than average. To put that into perspective, Ps2 is 1.8 standard deviations longer than average. Final D and Distant planet are also much longer than Delfinos is high, which is a problem in my eyes. Delfinos is less than 1 standard deviation higher than average so there is a clear bias against high stages without dreamland on your list.

This problem could be solved by making Delfino's have a ceiling that is ~1.8 sds above average, but even then there would be too many long stages in relation to the high ones without dreamland.

 

[Stryker]

To throw in my two sense as the only PM TO for my region, I don't like DS as it currently stands. Unpredictable and strange platform layouts are not conducive to a starter. Sometimes I can get chain throws center stage, sometimes I can't. Sometimes i can get combos, sometimes I can't. Yes, this is applicable to both players, but the randomness of the platforms just makes it awkward to play on and I've had players complain about "Janky platform layouts"
Similar to the survey, when asked about stages, my region and the nearby region have stated they'd mostly prefer DL, but I can see the logic for it being a counterpick.

After reading others opinions, I agree with this

1) Neither Delfinos or Dream land should be starters people. DS is in fact too dynamic. Maybe the PMDT can make it so there are only 3 different transformations. As of now there are a lot that arent appealing to me at alI. I would also like to see more time in between transformations, like maybe 1 minute between each.

Still looking around for a 5th stage, but yeah, Delphinos needs some normalization if it's ever going to be a starter.
One of the transformations is one plat on one side and two on top of each other on the other side. The junk is so strange. o.O