Requesting Feedback - A Potential Alternate Rule Set

[ShroudedOne]

Stupid things like....a joke sentence? I don't understand how you respond to me in that fashion over something that was CLEARLY a joke, and yet you don't take the time to evaluate your own posts. =\ In any case, I'm not discussing this here. Have fun.

 

[Acryte]

2 stocks too extreme 3 with 5 mins sounds legit though.

 

[Citizen Snips]

(which is to take the total number of stock and subtract one: 2 + 2 - 1 = 3; and I'm pretty sure that's true because I have a degree in math).

As a person who does math, I think you are correct.

Melee is liked, its mainly brawl that is hated


Also, LMFAO at people who think low tiers would do good on more stages >__<.

Ness's infinite wall reset is an example. Speaking of walls, why the hell is Peach's Castle banned? Is it not possible to smash di out of Fox's waveshines? Are we that bad still?

 

[Cactuar]

Playtest it before you propose changes to things like stock/time. Seriously. Part of making it two stock is to remove two stock deficits. There was an explanation on this. Not that people actual read everything.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Four minutes is too much, IMHO.

 

[Citizen Snips]

Edit: Nevermind ignore this it was removed

 

[da K.I.D.]

Stupid things like....a joke sentence? I don't understand how you respond to me in that fashion over something that was CLEARLY a joke, and yet you don't take the time to evaluate your own posts. =\ In any case, I'm not discussing this here. Have fun.

You are bad at internet tone.

I agree with CS about peach castle but I can admit that that's because I play ganon and I really like that stage.

Some stages just can't be made playable.

Smash in general (all 3 games) need to take less time to finish games and sets anyway. Need to reduce stocks and time. But don't give exorbitant amounts of games to compensate. If you go with 3 stocks in melee, keep it at best of 3

War of attrition.... That's a good way to put it

 

[Kal]

Maybe you're just bad at reading internet subtext?

 

[JPOBS]

cactuar, if you could answer my previous post on the topic, i'd appreciate it.

assuming you aren't

 

[da K.I.D.]

Maybe you're just bad at reading internet subtext?

Maybe its both? Maybe its neither.... Who knows...?

 

[Kal]

I know. You suck at subtext.

 

[Niko45]

With a very low timer floaty/low tier/******** stage matches would turn into one stock matches as you could take a lead and then run out the remaining clock really really easily.

And buffing time outs and crappy stages simultaneously sounds like a whole bunch of fox fox fox to me...

 

[Cactuar]

Your first point is not a full point. That is only brought up as an side effect. It isn't the primary objective of the change.

Your second point has varying degrees of impact. More than a minute is too long for that kind of decision. Factoring this in, in a best of 7, played out fully, you get a 27 minute set, plus a minute for anything before the first match. Realistically, playing out 14 stock should not take you anywhere close to the full 21 minutes, so it is not the average time spent, but rather an extreme scenario.

Pools sets should likely be less than best of 7.

@Niko: Use examples, not hypotheticals.

 

[Acryte]

Snips I thought forbidden smash di wont allow you to do that...

 

[Fernandez]

You are thinking in terms of how those matches play on neutrals. And the intent is not that matches have to finish. You guys are under the assumption that matches should always finish because of how long our matches can potentially take vs how we actually play with 4 stock. Matches time out far more often in other fighters than they do in smash. Ours just take way longer to get there.


This is actually based around Killer Instinct, not any other fighter that comes to mind. Killer Instinct gave the players two 100% life bars, but your bar carried over when you took the first 100% from the opponent. The most you could ever do was a 50% combo in that sense.

This opens up playing to the timer as a legitimate strategy on many stages. You are used to thinking about it as a terrible terrible thing. View the match count and the timer combination. In a standard best of 3, which has now become a best of 7, the maximum match time for 3 timed out matches was 24 minutes. In this, with a full count of 7, it is only 21 minutes.

You have to let go of your hold on a lot of the way current melee plays to fully grasp this. Finishing the match is not as important as you think it is.

What does it matter that time outs are more common in other games? and you're saying that the reason you choose 3 minutes is so that time outs will be a strategy people can use more often? are you kidding? in the OP you said: - Make the game fast paced and fun again. thats so contradicting

There is a reason that people think time outs are a terrible thing, because time outs require camping and no one wants to see that/ likes playing against it. Sure it would make melee more like killer instinct or w/e but who cares?

3 minutes is sooooooo short, camping would be so much more common because making a mistake can cost you 50% of the match, so approaching would be more risky and alot of people wil probably stop approaching all together.
This ruleset should never be used imo =/ also I agree with what JPOBS said

 

[Cactuar]

Camping is not a legitimate argument imo. That is completely on the player, not the ruleset. Even when presented a clear choice where camping would probably be the best option, very few of our players do it. Even though we know a planking Jigglypuff beats... pretty much anything... how many jiggs are willing to do it?

Again, play test it. I didn't have a single match go beyond 2 minutes, even on Hyrule. As a player, I'm aggressive. This varies based on player.

 

[Kal]

In my opinion, the time and stock won't affect camping (assuming the "medium" match-duration I've mentioned before, relative to the number of stock). If the game is campy, the game is campy. It's not going to change based on how we scale the number of stock.

 

[Citizen Snips]

Every time any thread concerning rulesets comes up, I get a little image of a Jiggs song-camping the ledge and I get a giant feeling of dread. There's nothing we can really do about guaranteed ledgestalls except ban them. For non-guaranteed camping (AKA run away), I feel like this rule set actually helps. The camper is still going to have to run away, but now players can counterpick smaller stages more often to prevent it.

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

yo this idea sucks

I don't think 2 stocks gives you enought time to adapt.

The more that I read this, the more it sounds like a troll ruleset....

i do not like the idea of 2 stock matches. i feel like momentum is hard to win back after a single stock

I agree with all of you.
2 stock matches will not give players ample time to adapt.
Plus I feel like a timer this low would only encourage some people to try and time others out.

 

[Kal]

Every time any thread concerning rulesets comes up, I get a little image of a Jiggs song-camping the ledge and I get a giant feeling of dread. There's nothing we can really do about guaranteed ledgestalls except ban them. For non-guaranteed camping (AKA run away), I feel like this rule set actually helps. The camper is still going to have to run away, but now players can counterpick smaller stages more often to prevent it.

Or counterpick Fox on Corneria and be summon the **** out of your friends!

 

[Citizen Snips]

2 stock matches will not give players ample time to adapt.
Plus I feel like a timer this low would only encourage some people to try and time others out.

We have addressed both of these issues in detail.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

What does it matter that time outs are more common in other games? and you're saying that the reason you choose 3 minutes is so that time outs will be a strategy people can use more often? are you kidding? in the OP you said: - Make the game fast paced and fun again. thats so contradicting

There is a reason that people think time outs are a terrible thing, because time outs require camping and no one wants to see that/ likes playing against it. Sure it would make melee more like killer instinct or w/e but who cares?

3 minutes is sooooooo short, camping would be so much more common because making a mistake can cost you 50% of the match, so approaching would be more risky and alot of people wil probably stop approaching all together.
This ruleset should never be used imo =/ also I agree with what JPOBS said

Have you played any other game competitively?

Restrictive timers encourage AGGRESSION not camping.

In my opinion, the time and stock won't affect camping (assuming the "medium" match-duration I've mentioned before, relative to the number of stock). If the game is campy, the game is campy. It's not going to change based on how we scale the number of stock.

It'd basically just be like the first and last minute and a half of Armada/Hbox with all the middle stuff cut out.

In other words, much, much, much more entertaining.

 

[Niko45]

Plus just because time outs happen in other games doesn't mean we need to buff them in Melee. Time out strategies are pretty amazing in melee considering the access to more flexible movement and ledge invincibility compared to the confined linear space and movement that other fighting games have. The timer should be relatively high like it is now in order to combat this.

 

[Kal]

Yeah. I think you'll be testing mostly the same skills, but it will be more entertaining and hopefully more fun for most players.

 

[Citizen Snips]

Plus just because time outs happen in other games doesn't mean we need to buff them in Melee. Time out strategies are pretty amazing in melee considering the access to more flexible movement and ledge invincibility compared to the confined linear space and movement that other fighting games have. The timer should be relatively high like it is now in order to combat this.

Or you could just ban ledge stalling. Which I think will be a perfect solution if it ever somehow gets to be too much of an issue.

 

[Cactuar]

Playtest.

Playtestplaytestplaytest. Then let me know how much you hate it.

@Niko: The timer is up for discussion. I'd like to see a PC fest try it out with a variety of different timers. I doubt you would even notice the timer for the most part.

The timer actually prevents scenarios like... both players being at one stock on a walk off stage and the dude who is at high percent just sits in the magnifier waiting to get a grab, even though the other guy has 5%.

 

[Kal]

Some Austinites are planning on trying it out for their next local, and I'm trying to get one going here in Houston.

 

[Citizen Snips]

Playtest.

Playtestplaytestplaytest. Then let me know how much you hate it.

@Niko: The timer is up for discussion. I'd like to see a PC fest try it out with a variety of different timers. I doubt you would even notice the timer for the most part.

I don't think friendlies are a good representation of timers. Hell, half the time I don't even turn it on in friendlies. I'd be more worried about it when money is on the line.

EDIT: Oh, tournament. Nevermind. Derp.

 

[Kal]

Also, when you're "playtesting" the assumption is that you will at least try and bring out flaws in the system. You hopefully wouldn't suddenly discover in tournament that there is a serious, glaring flaw.

 

[Fernandez]

Camping is not a legitimate argument imo. That is completely on the player, not the ruleset. Even when presented a clear choice where camping would probably be the best option, very few of our players do it. Even though we know a planking Jigglypuff beats... pretty much anything... how many jiggs are willing to do it?

Again, play test it. I didn't have a single match go beyond 2 minutes, even on Hyrule. As a player, I'm aggressive. This varies based on player.

How does it have nothing to do with the ruleset? Do you really think if Hyrule was the only legal stage people would playing anything but fox?

@ the jiggs thing You'll see how many people are willing to do it with money on the line if the timer was only 3 minutes.
Ruleset does influence how many people are willing to camp for the win, you proposed in the OP to make the game fun again, but you propose a ruleset that only motivates people to camp more.

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

i hate this ruleset

/close-minded

 

[Cactuar]

@Fernandez:

You only get camped out if you allow yourself to get camped out. So you lose the counterpicks due to camping. Pick. Smaller. Stages.

I've never cared when someone camps me. It's a legitimate strategy. A strong one too. Be better than that. Camping is a player skill, regardless of what you think. If someone chooses to do it, that's their call. Know how to beat it. If you can't beat it where they pick, know how to beat it somewhere else. The point of this is that it gives you more control in countering things you dislike.

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

Adding on to Fernandez:

Camping definitely has something to do with the ruleset.
I admit that camping/timing out is an effective strategy. Only reason I wont use it is because I dont wanna be a ***** for 8 minutes...

3 Minutes makes that feeling go away and Im pretty sure plenty of players would start trying to time out people

 

[Cactuar]

Play test it with 3 minutes and play test it with more if you feel a significant number of matches are timing out. This is why I need evidence, not hypothesis. Find what works for you and let me know.

 

[Kal]

3 Minutes makes that feeling go away and Im pretty sure plenty of players would start trying to time out people

Not at high levels of play. Maybe in scrubsville, people won't camp for eight minutes because they don't like being jerks, but in Playing to Win... town? They will camp regardless. Which is why I don't think the timer, scaled according to number of stocks, will have any impact on how much players camp. If the game is campy, the game is campy.

 

[Niko45]

@Niko: The timer is up for discussion. I'd like to see a PC fest try it out with a variety of different timers. I doubt you would even notice the timer for the most part.

I know just who I want to try this on

 

[Fernandez]

@Fernandez:

You only get camped out if you allow yourself to get camped out. So you lose the counterpicks due to camping. Pick. Smaller. Stages.

I've never cared when someone camps me. It's a legitimate strategy. A strong one too. Be better than that. Camping is a player skill, regardless of what you think. If someone chooses to do it, that's their call. Know how to beat it. If you can't beat it where they pick, know how to beat it somewhere else. The point of this is that it gives you more control in countering things you dislike.

Jiggs planking works on every stage, yes it is a legimate strategy, yes its a skill but thats not the point, you even said in the op you want to make the game FUN and FAST again, this ruleset does NOT help any of that.

You can host a small tourney with friends or something it may turn out good, but a national/international tourney with alot of money on the line will be a disaster.

 

[Cactuar]

Cool. More hypotheticals.

 

[Jonas]

Oh, and 3 minutes is too little
Having 1½ minute for each stocks... floaties vs floaties would rarely finish.

Sure they would. They would just last 3 minutes instead of 6-7-8 minutes.

 

[Bones0]

You're really half-assing this Cactuar. You need to just go balls deep and go with something similar to what New Jersey Brawlers are doing. 1 stock, 1 minute would keep games short in order to maximize the benefit low tiers get from their "burst" styles. There is very little accident forgiveness because any one mistake can lead to a loss. A lot of games would probably go to time, but whoever is losing would be doing their best to stay in their opponent's face and keep the action going. With just 1 stock per match, you can increase sets to at least best of 13s, which means 13 different stages. That means players will be required to adapt quickly to their opponent's 13 unique strategies, and players must also be prepared for the thousands(?) of character combinations that could be played at any given time based on who is counterpicking characters.