Release infnites... Do tournies generally ban them?

[Yuna]

No, they are not (a few tourneys here and there and some/many Canadian tournies =/= generally banned). And they shouldn't be.

Infinites, im fine with. Grab release infinites are a no-no. They are:

low risk, high reward.

Uttter manure. How are infinites not "low risk, high reward"? What are you possibly risking while infiniting someone? Whiffing?

Not really. They're hard to do as hell.

Hard to do =/= High risk

 

[Fatmanonice]

Some of them are easy, some of them are hard. All of Wario's are hard to do.

The 8 people are Yoshi, ZSS, Bowser, Ganondorf, Falcon, Ike, Zelda, and Peach

I know you were the one that discovered them but I'll explain them a little bit more to save you the trouble. Yoshi and ZSS can do it from standing, Ike, Peach, Captain Falcon, and Zelda can only do it if they catch Wario in the air and he has already used his second jump, and Bowser and Ganondorf can be done both on the ground and in the air but is so retardedly slow that it could probably be classified as stalling.

 

[Ace55]

Not really. They're hard to do as hell.

Which infinites are hard as hell? Dedede's is tricky but very very doable. The IC is indeed very tricky but nothing a little practise won't fix (I've been working on them lately). I actually think the Wario infinites are harder then the IC . The IC are way more complex, but you only have a one frame window on the grab release if he still has his second jump, so the timing is pretty freaking hard.
The Ness/Lucas grab release, that's indeed ******** (just keep pressing grab to **** him).

And if I could say something about the whole infinites were allowed in Melee so why not here thing (I don't really support a ban for infinites but I just don't like the argument beeing made).
In Melee there was kind of a balance between grabs and attacks. Attacks could lead into long combos, even 0 to death combos, grabs could lead into chaingrabs/techchasing/combos (0 to death infinites for the IC). Both options were very powerfull and could easily do lots of damage to your opponent. In Brawl there is only one attack that can lead to an 0 to death as far as I know (Sheiks F-tilt), all others come from grabs. The balance between landing an attack or landing a grab has gone totally out of the window for some matchups. If I land a grab, you're dead. But if you land an attack, there are no real followups so the situation resets.

What I'm saying is that in Melee characters could counter infinites (or 0 to death chaingrabs) by doing some heavy comboing of their own, in Brawl, not so much.

 

[PKNintendo]

Which infinites are hard as hell? Dedede's is tricky but very very doable. The IC is indeed very tricky but nothing a little practise won't fix (I've been working on them lately). I actually think the Wario infinites are harder then the IC . The IC are way more complex, but you only have a one frame window on the grab release if he still has his second jump, so the timing is pretty freaking hard.
The Ness/Lucas grab release, that's indeed ******** (just keep pressing grab to **** him).

And if I could say something about the whole infinites were allowed in Melee so why not here thing (I don't really support a ban for infinites but I just don't like the argument beeing made).
In Melee there was kind of a balance between grabs and attacks. Attacks could lead into long combos, even 0 to death combos, grabs could lead into chaingrabs/techchasing/combos (0 to death infinites for the IC). Both options were very powerfull and could easily do lots of damage to your opponent. In Brawl there is only one attack that can lead to an 0 to death as far as I know (Sheiks F-tilt), all others come from grabs. The balance between landing an attack or landing a grab has gone totally out of the window for some matchups. If I land a grab, you're dead. But if you land an attack, there are no real followups so the situation resets.

What I'm saying is that in Melee characters could counter infinites (or 0 to death chaingrabs) by doing some heavy comboing of their own, in Brawl, not so much.

I guess. Yuna does have a point.

 

[Yuna]

<snip>

What I'm saying is that in Melee characters could counter infinites (or 0 to death chaingrabs) by doing some heavy comboing of their own, in Brawl, not so much.

First, there were almost no 0-death combos in Melee. None. Unless the victim is a fastfaller and even then they were either strings or situational. Second, in Melee, there were a few chaingrabs that went from 0 or almost 0 to death... if the victim was a fastfaller.

Second: "It gimps people more than in Melee! Noes!"

So what? It's just another 10-0 matchup. We didn't ban Sheik for 10-0:ing or close to 10:0ing characters in NTSC. Also, DeDeDe isn't even the hardest matchup for some of the characters he can infinite from what I hear!

I guess. Yuna does have a point.

I usually do.

 

[Tien2500]

I don't get the whole, it was allowed in Melee argument. Just because it was allowed in Melee doesn't mean it should have been and these things generally should still be open to discussion. Plus Melee had different physics and the chaingrabs here are pretty different. But anyways can anyone describe the Squirtle release infinites to me? I've been unable to find much info on them and haven't actually encountered them in battle.

 

[Megavitamins]

Some tounies in Canada have the Ness/Lucas infinites banned.

They do allow a marth to Grab release > Fsmash though.

Sometimes it's not truly, officially banned, more of a respect thing. You can't expect this everywhere you go though...

Exactly. Thats how its here. It's really looked down upon, and people start booing if they see you do it haha. I've seen an amazing ness get like 2-stocked by a marth in tourney because double blinds werent in place, and after the nub saw his opponent pick ness, he just picked marth and spammed z the whole time.

 

[The Real Inferno]

I like how the characters that have infinites on Wario aren't exceedingly popular, thus Wario mains aren't always going to run into those chars who can infinite him. Meanwhile poor Ness and Lucas get infinited by Marth one of the most popular ones meaning they are almost guarenteed to always run into someone who can infinite them in every tournament.

 

[Manic_1]

It seems like grab releases would be considered stalling because they take so long to rack up damage.

 

[kainsword]

Then if they aren't banned, everyone should very well abuse grab release infinites. Hooray for royally screwing Ness and Lucas mains.

 

[Ace55]

First, there were almost no 0-death combos in Melee. None. Unless the victim is a fastfaller and even then they were either strings or situational. Second, in Melee, there were a few chaingrabs that went from 0 or almost 0 to death... if the victim was a fastfaller.

In the part you snipped I was very clear about there being long combo's (not to mention edgegaurding was much (!) more reliable) and a few 0 to death combo's. But I apreciate you wanting to school me in Melee.

Second: "It gimps people more than in Melee! Noes!"

So what? It's just another 10-0 matchup. We didn't ban Sheik for 10-0:ing or close to 10:0ing characters in NTSC. Also, DeDeDe isn't even the hardest matchup for some of the characters he can infinite from what I hear!

Thanks to the d*mn grab release to uptilt Wario's Dedede matchup is now pretty hopeless, so I'm guessing DK, Mario, Luigi, Samus are gonna have a pretty bad time (Dedede meets IC). So what do I do against Dedede? I pick someone who can handle him because I don't see any way (or reason even) to ban this. It's just a huge f*ckup from the programmers. Thank god the Wario infinites take so long that they will probably be considered stalling.
My point was that infinites (of which there are way more then in Melee) unbalance this game way more then they did in Melee. So saying "they were allowed in Melee so why not" doesn't seem like the best argument to me, especially since we have already started banning techniques in Brawl.

I usually do.

Yes you do. But sometimes you need to take a chill pill.

 

[BEES]

You can use the instant grab break to get out of grab release infinities. DeDeDe's chainthrows are still a problem for several characters though.

 

[DMG]

You can use the instant grab break to get out of grab release infinities. DeDeDe's chainthrows are still a problem for several characters though.

We have tried very hard to figure out what causes an instant grab break... We haven't had much success

 

[Sosuke]

We have tried very hard to figure out what causes an instant grab break... We haven't had much success

Isn't it just pressing a button as soon as your grabbed?
I do it successfully now and then.

 

[DMG]

Isn't it just pressing a button as soon as your grabbed?
I do it successfully now and then.

We've tested that but there might be some rules for grab releases that we don't know about (Maybe it's impossible to grab break if you are grabbed in the air?) IDK but we have really tried a lot of stuff, with little success for any method.

 

[Lex Crunch]

'Tis preposterous to ban anything other than items, and in some cases stages. How can you govern every last thing people do? If you could, then why was Wavedashing legal in SSBM? Because you can't!

 

[uremog]

That's about right. Oops, I accidentally air dodged too low to the ground, I guess you're gonna have to DQ me. What kind of BS is that? Ban grab releases? How many times can I grab release? None? Then the best strat for Ness is to get grabbed and mash escape so the opponent gets DQ'd -> insta-win. Wow, that's smart. Once in a row? Grab-release, jab, grab or other mixup since after being released, Ness can now shield with no fear of being grabbed next. It's not pretty to regulate things like this. It's pretty ridiculous, but the best way to handle this is to learn to live with it.

 

[Talvi]

Some ******** people shouldn't post around here. If some TO decides to ban stuff, then don't go to that tourney. It doesn't mean that the SBR decided that, but that TO. So stop talking bull****.

 

[chewyy]

My point was that infinites (of which there are way more then in Melee) unbalance this game way more then they did in Melee.

Melee was super unbalanced. Brawl is still in the works.

That's about right. Oops, I accidentally air dodged too low to the ground, I guess you're gonna have to DQ me. What kind of BS is that? Ban grab releases? How many times can I grab release? None? Then the best strat for Ness is to get grabbed and mash escape so the opponent gets DQ'd -> insta-win. Wow, that's smart. Once in a row? Grab-release, jab, grab or other mixup since after being released, Ness can now shield with no fear of being grabbed next. It's not pretty to regulate things like this. It's pretty ridiculous, but the best way to handle this is to learn to live with it.

Agreed.

 

[PKNintendo]

That's about right. Oops, I accidentally air dodged too low to the ground, I guess you're gonna have to DQ me. What kind of BS is that? Ban grab releases? How many times can I grab release? None? Then the best strat for Ness is to get grabbed and mash escape so the opponent gets DQ'd -> insta-win. Wow, that's smart. Once in a row? Grab-release, jab, grab or other mixup since after being released, Ness can now shield with no fear of being grabbed next. It's not pretty to regulate things like this. It's pretty ridiculous, but the best way to handle this is to learn to live with it.

Are you serious? DQ? No idea what that mean's. Anyway, your assuming Ness is only affected by this? No. Ness, Lucas and Wario have this problem too.

Going by your logic, I can run towards to the opponent (hoping I get grabbed) escape and HOPEFULLY, that character can infinite Ness (only 2/38) and then I win? The opponent will usually throw me, since if this was banned, the opponent would know about it.

Not only is that idiotic, it sounds like your downing on Ness for having this problem! Seriously, when I mean by no grab releases, I mean no regrabs. Try to grab release Mario. He will usually escape. Now with Ness/Lucas/Wario, when they are grabbed by a certain character, they can get infinited or smashed out of a grab release. Sure getting smashed out of a grab is unfair. It can mean a free KO. But it's better than getting infinited.

So in a tourney match, the best Ness can do is try to not to get grabbed, because it means a free smash, not an infinite.

PS: I am living with it, using counterpicks.

 

[BEES]

We have tried very hard to figure out what causes an instant grab break... We haven't had much success

We haven't fully found out how to make this consistent, but we'll get it eventually.

 

[Popertop]

Melee was super unbalanced. Brawl is still in the works.



Agreed.

Melee was way more balanced than this peice of ****.

 

[Yuna]

Thanks to the d*mn grab release to uptilt Wario's Dedede matchup is now pretty hopeless, so I'm guessing DK, Mario, Luigi, Samus are gonna have a pretty bad time (Dedede meets IC). So what do I do against Dedede? I pick someone who can handle him because I don't see any way (or reason even) to ban this. It's just a huge f*ckup from the programmers. Thank god the Wario infinites take so long that they will probably be considered stalling.

Don't play Wario in certain matchups.

My point was that infinites (of which there are way more then in Melee) unbalance this game way more then they did in Melee. So saying "they were allowed in Melee so why not" doesn't seem like the best argument to me, especially since we have already started banning techniques in Brawl.

We only ban things when it limits the number of viable characters to a small number of characters, not when they gimp a small number of characters.

Also, which techniques have been universally banned in Brawl?

 

[Ripple]

We only ban things when it limits the number of viable characters to a small number of characters, not when they gimp a small number of characters.

the ICs can gimp every character in the game with 1 grab except of another IC.

so then going by what you said we should ban the ICs infinite chain grab somehow because it limits the number of VIABLE characters you can choose to beat them to not even 10. right

lets see who can beat ICs (a.k.a. not landing long enough to be grabbed)
G&W
Meta
ROB
Toon link
luigi? (IDK for sure)
Snake?
Jiggs
Kirby
1 maybe 2 more

other characters are not viable because they stay on the ground too long or have a aerials with too much lag.

 

[Scala]

IC's are good but you're trying to read too much into this. Any character can fight against the ICs and do well, it all boils down to not getting grabbed. Hell, lets not get into this discussion though.

I am a proponent of limiting grabs to 3 in a row, and I choose not to do the wario infinite with yoshi, I usually do 2 or 3 grabs and take the free upsmash

 

[betterthanbonds9]

I am a proponent of limiting grabs to 3 in a row, and I choose not to do the wario infinite with yoshi, I usually do 2 or 3 grabs and take the free upsmash

play2win....if it's in friendlies, sure i wont infinite them to death, but if i have money on the line i could care less about them if i have an insane advantage on them.

People, it's called counterpicking, your opponent WILL do it to you. You should do it to them or you're fighting with a disadvatage AND a handicap, good luck with that.

 

[Big Red]

no johns

learn to cp

 

[PKNintendo]

the ICs can gimp every character in the game with 1 grab except of another IC.

so then going by what you said we should ban the ICs infinite chain grab somehow because it limits the number of VIABLE characters you can choose to beat them to not even 10. right

lets see who can beat ICs (a.k.a. not landing long enough to be grabbed)
G&W
Meta
ROB
Toon link
luigi? (IDK for sure)
Snake?
Jiggs
Kirby
1 maybe 2 more

other characters are not viable because they stay on the ground too long or have a aerials with too much lag.

IC are overrated. Lack of grab range and great spacing make don't make them a threat.

 

[The Real Inferno]

Don't play Wario in certain matchups.


We only ban things when it limits the number of viable characters to a small number of characters, not when they gimp a small number of characters.

Also, which techniques have been universally banned in Brawl?

I can only assume he meant Metaknight's Infinite Dimensional Cape Glitch getting banned.

 

[betterthanbonds9]

only techniques i know that have been banned are stalling techniques like the aforementioned MK vB glitch. There are others, but i dont know them off the top of my head.

 

[The Real Inferno]

only techniques i know that have been banned are stalling techniques like the aforementioned MK vB glitch. There are others, but i dont know them off the top of my head.

Well there are lots of ways to stall, the IDC is special in that it has other reasons thus it got its own mention. Other techniques you can stall with are Fox's Shine in the air, Jigglypuff's rising pound, Sonic's Homing attack under the stage....hitting the start button (it has the highest priority in the game)

 

[betterthanbonds9]

Well there are lots of ways to stall, the IDC is special in that it has other reasons thus it got its own mention. Other techniques you can stall with are Fox's Shine in the air, Jigglypuff's rising pound, Sonic's Homing attack under the stage....hitting the start button (it has the highest priority in the game)

yeah, but the only one of those that is banned iirc is the jiggs one because you're invulnerable. It's the ones that can literally stall out 8 minutes (or w/e the tourny uses) that get banned.

and hitting start during a match is just stupid, but it isn't a technique....

 

[Yuna]

BS

What part of "No grab range", "Too much shieldknockback received", "Too easy to separate and gimp" was too Canadian French for you to understand?

ICs do not limit the number of viable characters to just a few. Not on paper, not in practice. And that list of characters is BS. Toon Link virtually lagless? No Peach or Sheik? In what alternate universe?

I can only assume he meant Metaknight's Infinite Dimensional Cape Glitch getting banned.

Not yet universally banned and also one technique. He specifically said techniques. "All stalling tactics" aren't really techniques as most of them aren't even techniques but just abusing certain mechanics in certain ways.

 

[gojira345]

Yuna's sig and fame seem to have gone to his head a little.

 

[Ace55]

Don't play Wario in certain matchups.

Thank you captain obvious that's what I said.

Also, which techniques have been universally banned in Brawl?

I guess I should have said techniques without the s. I was indeed talking about the infinite cape.

Once again, I'm not saying that infinites should be banned.

 

[Yuna]

Thank you captain obvious that's what I said.

Only there was tons of unnecessary stuff cluttering your post.

I guess I should have said techniques without the s. I was indeed talking about the infinite cape.

And, as I said, you're wrong. The Infinite Cape is not yet universally banned.

 

[fkacyan]

Yuna's sig and fame seem to have gone to his head a little.

Yuna has always been like this. It's nothing new.

Also, the way he puts things doesn't make him any less right.

 

[betterthanbonds9]

As cocky as he seems, at least he's more right than listerine kills germs.

Spoiler

plus he's honest

 

[Dantarion]

I agree with Yuna on all acounts.

Also, I find it surprizing that people keep whining about these moves, and IC chaingrabs, when the characters that dominate tournaments, MK and Snake, are hardly mentioned in these threads.

If these techniques need to be banned because they are so useful, then why don't we see them in tournaments all over the place?

And not "One time I got infinited and I lost in a tourney", I mean whenever we see threads about how brawl is de-evolving into "don't get grabbed" and infinites are the obly viable technique, THEN, and only THEN, should we panic and start banning things.

We ban things that severly impact tournament play AFTER they impact play, not because we think they can/might/will.

For example, someone mentioned some Texas tournies banning the IC infinite/cg AFTER Hylian ***** with it. I don't agree with it, but they did it AFTER the ****. Perhaps they felt like future tournies would revolve around IC chaingrabs unless they killed the infinite/cg

 

[Ace55]

Only there was tons of unnecessary stuff cluttering your post.

Probably.

And, as I said, you're wrong. The Infinite Cape is not yet universally banned.

Does that mean 75M and Smashballs arn't universally banned yet either? I mean it's listed as banned in the SBR rule list (it's even listed under general rules).

Lovely at those bold words amirite?