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Fire Fox covers much more distance than Fire Bird, while Fox Illusion's distance is as same as Falco Phantasm, but Falco Phantasm soft spikes. Although, the distance difference may be a big deal, since the safety of those two aren't really much different anyway (Falco has his flinching laser, but that's about it).
Can confirm on Falco's recovery being consistently dunked by DK quite easily. His second jump's height isn't very good either, so not much help lended there.
Pretty much this, in that Fox's greater up B distance not only gives him better vertical and diagonal recovery, but it allows him a bit more safety by merit of being able to fox fire from farther away than Falco can fire bird. That said, I'm not 100% on his placement either-- a step below Fox always feels a bit 'closer' to right, since it's just the one main facet different.
True, and those are the core reasons for his current placement, but, honestly, horizontal recovery is feeling a bit more important in general than vertical, so I'm considering weighing it in more heavily across the board. It's always been enough for, say, DK to be better than Ganondorf, but horizontal powerhouses like Luigi are really breaking new ground. I think that Falco is potentially a bit past Samus and co-- particularly since I'm recently finding more and more instances of gimping Samus despite screw attack's far-improved hitboxes.
I've been watching a lot more games lately (rather than just testing), and seeing even really good Lucarios get screwed up by the occasional up B flub has been rather enlightening... I think I might agree with the idea of Lucario being lower-- albeit I still think he's at least S- material, given that his recovery's minor flaws are still quite situational ones. He's no worse off than Jiggly, who can actually be feasibly gimped out of jumps. 'If you land on stage', 'if you angle it wrong' and such are not massively relevant in 99% of cases, however, as we're trying to minimize the influence of ID:147 errors on ratings. We're trying to assume a sweetspotted ledge and a mastery of the recovery. Now, Lucario's recovery does feel to be 'practically unmasterable', at present, because of memorization of % ranges, the speed, the fluid angling, the lip-bouncing, and the simple difficulty of sweetspotting when you have to aim from a magnifying glass... but none of those are frequent enough issues that Lucario isn't all but ideal in 'a majority of situations', from what I've seen thus far.
Vertical, Horizontal, and Diagonal Distances - With all his options Doc slightly wins out vertically and diagonally. Otherwise Ganon wins. Ganon always wins Horizontally. A very slight edge to Ganon.Air Speed - Doc is ten rankings higher than GanonHitboxes - Ganon's the larger character, easier to targetVulnerability to gimps/spikes - Both are highly vulnerable to a well timed gimp or spike. The lower Doc is, the worse his chances than Ganon, but his changes strongly improve the higher he is while Ganon is pretty straightforward.Flexibility/Predictability/Options - Doc easily wins this as initially described aboveReliability - Probably depends on the opposing character. I suppose Ganon edges this out by a sliver if only 'cause sweetspotting the ledge is more straightforward and is done from a lower point. Again, Doc's wall jump is stage dependent.Defensive Aerials, Actions Out of Up B, Ledge Sweetspots... - Doc doesn't sacrifice as much by defending himself in the air. On the ledge Ganon has leggier hitboxes but AFAIK has to decide between defending the ledge or getting off of it safely while Doc can get back on the stage with a double jump aerial. Ganon does threaten with Side B, but that's a suicide maneuver. I'm less sure on this, but I'd give the edge to the Doc
I love detailed, thoughtful posts like this-- always lead to some great new insights. DK's placement is an artifact from 1.0, and he's moved very little for one main reason: he feels to be similar to Bowser, just with worse vertical recovery. My first question, then, becomes whether you think that perspective is off, or whether you're saying Bowser deserves to rise as well. My perspective on how easily DK can be spiked is, of course, based on my singular experiences more than anything, but his resilience to horizontal gimping is certainly outstanding. For the sake of clarity, we'll use 'behind Brawler **22' as an absolute maximum (as brawler 2 is similarly all-horizontal, but with more mixups and such), and we'll discuss how far below that point DK should be placed. Most importantly, though, we also need to figure where that puts Bowser, whose recovery is so similar. Still, I can certainly see somewhere in the B tiers or higher C being possible, if we can figure out how Bowser factors in to all of that.
...And like this. ^^ I think your first sentence was meant to say 'higher' than Ganon? The fact that Doc's tornado's mashing is able to take one higher than I can physically replicate is a key factor. Doc's mostly below Ganon at-present because he's one of the only characters bar LM who can SD from a shorthopped action off the stage-- it quite heavily colored my perspective, as Doc so often seems to find himself unable to even attempt recovery due to range issues. The idea was that, while Ganon may be gimped when recovering, at least he can actually reach the ledge when not hassled.I have to argue for *GASP* Dr. Mario being ranked lower than Ganondorf. I actually argued this with somebody else. Aside from some highly questionable reasoning from them (using a factor nobody else in this topic is using), they seemed content with ignoring some of Doc's options and attributes and practically giving Ganon a free pass.
So I have to ask: Why does Doc, who has statistically better air movement and a slower fall speed, the options to mix up his recovery timing, a projectile to cover the area slightly below him, the Tornado which, while not gaining as much height as it should, does regain some height AND can respectably challenge some direct gimp attempts, and finally an Up B that does bring a threat to challenge... Gets ranked lower than Ganon who effectively has Up B, Side B, and little else but a prayer?
Yes I know Up B's distance is paltry and Tornado does little to improve it and Wall Jump is stage specific and doesn't always add much to his recovery. Meanwhile for all that Ganon doesn't have, Up B does have decent height to it. But we're supposed to consider these factors:
Yeah her up b insn't really bad but it is just ok at recovering and thank god you will never have to really use it.
As far as Gunner is concerned, I would rank at least rank **2* a tad lower than the other two by virtue of distance lost. It protects itself better than the other 2 and is more capable as an offensive move, but the reduced distance makes it a little less flexible/predictable. The other 2 specials are preference based mostly imo. I like 1 better than 3, but I haven't really explored 3 much.
Keep in mind, predictability is mainly relevant for what holes it pokes in one's safety-- Palutena is hardly going to be surprising anyone, but her safety makes that predictability only marginally relevant, as she's invulnerable from the start of up B 'till she's already on the ledge. 1 and 3 feel quite similar for up B on Gunner, in any case, but have you given 2 a try? Play it in a couple of games against some people, ideally, to get a sense of how much safer it is as gimp after gimp fails to connect. For that matter, you get a surprisingly healthy amount of drift out of it-- not that Gunners really need the help recovering horizontally, thinking of it... It has less range, sure, but that feels like a tradeoff, given that the other two all but lack useful protection hitboxes (as a Robin main, I can assure you that the hitbox on 1 as an up B is something I'd trade for something that protects from attacks from above in a heartbeat). Honestly, 2 might be just behind 1/3, but if it's going to be gunner 1/3 right next to gunner 2, I don't really see the point in cluttering the list further-- Brawler certainly deserves it for having such extremes of recovery available within their options, of course, and I'd almost fuse Swordfighter if not for the fact that **3* manages to be more usable than anything with 1/2 by a fair margin... It's the same character, after all, with the only different factors for gunner (as only up B is relevant) being range and safety... which, for the purposes of this list, should be treated as roughly equivalent. Safety is what has Diddy down by Mario, after all. Air speed, coverage moves, even horizontal distance is pretty similar between all Gunenrs (as they all have Fair, good air speed, etc.). Also, for the record, I've been testing Miis of differing sizes and such, and their main differences feel to be in attack speed and attack range... even their weight feels to be very strictly consistent, and the differences between even a short/thin Mii and a tall/wide Mii feels pretty minimal in terms of recovery thus far-- I think we can consider it to be a negligible factor.
Appreciate the efforts. Given the comparisons and information presented earlier, I'm fine with Doc being a touch above Ganondorf, even if it requires a handspeed that I flatly can't manage for it to reach its full potential (my play's entirely prediction and mindgames, dammit-- how does one manage to be bad at button mashing!?). But yeah, I can just baaarely get lift out of Doc's tornado, and certainly only from a jump. But yeah, Luigi very much feels to fit within A-. He has some clear issues (like Rosalina's lack of hitboxes, Palutena's range, and Falco's gimpability), but they don't really manage to inhibit his recovery overly much in a typical game. Fireballs to cover him and tornado-to-stage-from-ledge options are what really clinch it, though-- it's a tier for the new emphasis on horizontal recovery, a tier for the jumpless tornado, and a tier for stage covering options, invulnerability during up B, et cetera... If Doc has better horizontal, in any case, we can call them 'even' in distance, with Ganon a touch lower for his Falcon-but-worse gimpability. Falcon himself will likely remain above doc, however, for lacking the same problems of being quite so massive an air-slow hitbox and such.
As far as we know, it's based on the knockback of the move that hit him. Seems like if the attack doesn't have enough knockback to cause knockdown, he doesn't get the clown car back.
Well, for the time being BowJow will remain tentatively around Samus and co., and I'll see about looking into what else might disrupt his up B recovery-- I imagine that a move that doesn't cause knockdown would be rather hard pressed to really gimp him, so it's a rather curious state of affairs, I suppose.
Hmm... For the record, Olimar is listed already as above 'most of the cast', (18th place, if just counting defaults). That said, being able to scoot to the far ledge that quickly is rather unheard of, which significantly buffs his potential recovery... on select stages. Walled Omegas are what immediately strike me, making this feel rather like an inverse wall-jump in terms of potential. Still, it's certainly better recovery than Kirby gets. For that matter, I'm apt to swap Olimar's place with Kirby's and move Kirby's copy forms down a bit... if not even put Kirby lower. Kirby's up B is unsafe, his jumps aren't exactly quick, and he has minimal air coverage to protect him from stage spikes, footstools, traditional spikes, et cetera... I can imagine seeing Kirby down by Rosalina or so, really.
You'd be surprised. At lower percents, many aerials don't cause knockdown (characters with sex kicks can use the weak hit at essentially any percent), and moves such as Bowser's or Charizard's neutralB prevent him from ever recovering low. I think he's fine where he currently is though, just because his recovery's distance is stellar and he retains the ability to attack and airdodge after upB.
Appreciate the clarification. Also? I never imagined that the term 'sex kick' would ever evoke freaking nostalgia, but, well, there it is. I'm so used to terms like wave dancing seeing such constant use despite being defunct that I entirely forgot that old snippet of melee lingo. How have I not heard that in so long?
Also B-reverse shadow ball acts like Marth's shieldbreaker, but if he has it charged, helps recovery on command
I think Pikachu has a rival best for non Kribynado recovery
I wouldn't rank Mewtwo as a rival to Pika. He's good, but his telly lacks any hitboxes, and doesn't have QA's finesse. Also, he doesn't have a move like Skull Bash, which assist's Pika's horizontal recovery as well
Well his teleport is completely unsnipable outside of the universal 1 frame from grabbing the ledge. Confusion aids his horizontal recovery along with b reversed Shadow ball
. could be S tier material but I dunno. A Mewtwo that would recover acts similarly to a Yoshi recovering in a manner that they never want to get footstooled, & that's by using a doublejump + airdodge's invincibility for almost all of the Doublejump. Teleport is a mini version of this not to mention that his Disable had a stall-then-fall effect? Maybe I wasn't analyzing his movement clearly, but yeah.
The fact that Mewtwo can Walljump alone amazes me.
Hm... all true. MK's recover is certainly one of the game's best, and I feel like this is a case of my just not testing the S tiers too rigorously of-late. His only real weakness is that the recover angles on some of his moves are predictable, and that, as with and multiple jumper, he can get into trouble if missing his jumps. So that's a bit different from Olimar (who can be hit out of his up B, but can reuse it ad infinitum from basically any range), and from G&W (who simply has one of the game's quickest and safest rising up B frames), and a bit different from Zelda and Lucario's similarly solid up B's... Actually, I'll say more on all this below, as I have a few other suspects to wonder about now...
Right, that's what's keeping him on similar pacing with Kirby, at the moment-- both are vulnerable to having jumps eaten, and their recovery becomes extremely limited without their ability to jump. It's the main weakness to M2's otherwise stellar recovery, as that startup on his double jump means that projectiles and quick air hits can gimp his 2nd jump easier than most (just as Kirby's reliance on multiple jumps means that he's got some real problems offstage if he ends up out of jumps). Still, neither seem too terribly common just yet, and I've been testing Mewtwo extensively now-- if you're patient and extremely cautious with his double jump, and his his side B to mitigate predictability and overreliance on it, it's not too debilitating. Mewtwo's ability to trick people with teleports to ledge or stage, to side B projectiles or potential edgeguarders (more risky), and various coverage moves like Bair, Uair, and Nair make for a pretty flexible offstage game in general, and he feels like 'if you're offstage, you're generally not too worried'.
(Jump): Certainly a clearly absurd recovery, so my main question here is 'should this just be noted as above Pikachu, rather than take up some full tier'. Simply renaming S+ to S++ or the like sort've gets the point across, and, past the point where you're all but guaranteed to recover, (which is my running definition for S+), there's really nothing gained from being able to recover from distances that will never exist. Though, just dropping him into S+ to get rid of the 'best' tier might be more appropriate.Can recover from just about any range, quick attack is one of the game's safest up B's, and overall Pikachu has no real weakness when recovering.Slightly less range than Pikachu, but otherwise pretty much the same: all of the safety and range with no tangible downside.Perhaps the game's best range, along with some pretty solid safety in a majority of situations thanks to the maneuverability and balloon-hitting mechanics. If hit out without balloons popped, can even reuse up B.Quite similar to Shiek in range, with Pikachu's angles, but the tinest bit of vulnerability in the fact that it's technically not invincible during up B. That's... pretty much it. 'Not totally invincible' is the main knock against hydro pump, and there's some interesting mixups regardless.Extremely solid recover all-around, with the only limitations being that side B isn't has a range limit (even if a huge range) and that up B is all but useless for recovery. That said, up B isn't really needed for recovery, either, so she still sits within the 'guaranteed' range outside of some user error in most scenarios. Up B is sometimes inconsistent, between the requirement for aura and the problem with bouncing off stages rather than ledge snapping. It happens a bit too often to dismiss as only user error, so it keeps that otherwise incredible speed/safety/range from netting higher placement... in fact, it's a notable enough flaw to perhaps have Lucario set at the bottom of S, or top of S-, depending.So very safe, with some extreme range to boot. Predictability is the only slight flaw in Zelda's recovery, and that can lead to the rare ledge trump or gimp from someone going deep, but any standard situation still all but guarantees her recovery.Up B as safe as Zeldas vertically, and offers more range horizontally, as well as being a relatively safe 'to stage' recover thanks to the ability to act out of the parachute. A bit below Zelda for lacking a bit of diagonal range, but recovering from stage spikes isn't exactly anyone's forte, so I can't quite call that a huge blow to G&W's recovery game. That said, up B's horizontal recover isn't really a guarantee, so he may still be a better fit for high S-, perhaps...Every B move can be used for recovery, multiple jumps, extreme speed and safety on up B... MK's got everything he needs to recover, really, with only the slight issue like G&W where he may have limited diagonal recovery atop MK's reliance on midair jumps (which, in theory, means he may be gimped out of them, but I've never seen it happen as I have with Kirby, so I'm assuming he's just safer on that front). Flexibility goes a long way, and so he and Zelda may just lead S tier (or perhaps be raised to S+, if Pikachu is set above the rest by Monado Kirby, or if there's otherwise some gap between S+ ranks to emphasize... maybe a top 3 of Monado Kirby/Pikachu/Shiek? But Villager's gimpability is reeeeeeally a non-issue in practice, and... ugh... why does it always boil down to Villager!? So hard to place. ;-Laughs at those who need to jump at all to recover. Predictable, but that ends up largely irrelevant when his speed and absurd range let him just relentlessly recover from all but a direct KO. His only real flaw is that the non-hitting up B may set up a spike and technically 'fail' in that way, but the airspeed tends to remove that problem. Skirting under non-walled stages is just icing on the cake by turning his recovery into a guessing game before others even have a chance at stopping it.Can be footstooled easier than most due to iffy Uair and recovery's extreme reliance on jumps. It's not terribly common in my playtime, but it's always possible, and Jiggly's lack up an up B doesn't really help much, even if side B and neutral B combine to grant a fantastic horizontal recovery game.Super armor up B, multiple jumps, great range on both... D3 is pretty hard to stop from recovering, and is a case of 'knowing that a train is coming doesn't mean you can stop it', as his slow airspeed and predictability make for free damage, if nothing else, through that super armor. That all said, taking free damage when recovering isn't quite ideal, even if being hit out of recovery requires foes to dive offstage before up B ranges, so D3 is probably top S- or so-- higher would require him to have some super armor method of horizontal recovery, though gordos are a nice coverage move, at least.With bike and/or waft, some truly absurd recovery. Without either, he suffers greatly, and though the situations where you'd be missing both are few and far between, they're still enough of a factor to keep Wario out of higher tiers.Reliance on multiple jumps and a no damage up B means there's technically a safety issue, but, in practice, the angles and speed makes that rarely relevant. (Sonic/Jigglypuff/Speed) The addition of any recovery neutral B or speed mode solves some of Kirby's problems through keeping him from being too reliant on easily-gimped jumps, or by upping his mediocre airspeed.Side B can cover it to some extent, but the slow startup on his second jump and his helplessness without its range means that Mewtwo, despite incredible range and one of the game's quickest and safest up Bs, can have some real problems.(Jump) Reliant on a second jump, as with Mewtwo, but also only has a jump and an up B, limiting flexibility (despite extreme distance). If offstage with no double jump, up B alone just can't cut it that often, even with the extra range, and it's still vulnerable to certain projectiles as well (Villager's side smash or such), as its great hitboxes aren't a substitute for super armor or invulnerability.Has been said to death by now, but overly reliant on jumps and an up B that are quite easy to hit him out of. Even if up B is a bit quick, his airspeed isn't quick enough to really wiggle out of constantly gimp attempts. Still, his range is nothing to sneeze at when uncontested in recovering.Excellent up B speed/range, with neutral and side B as interesting mixups-- acting out of up B and its consistency even sans jumps gives Sonic a pretty solid recovery game, even if its occasional predictability and lack of innate up B hitboxes can lead to gimps. Horizontal range leaves a bit to be desired, though, regardless...Up B is a bit iffy in some ways, but range at all angles is pretty extreme, side B has super armor, and so on... Sonic and Pac Man are where my definitions start to fall apart, so for now I'll just focus on S+ through A+ ranges, first-- trying to tackle the full list at-once is apt to have me lacking focus.
This is a decently fine analysis of Jump Shulk, but you must consider that his air speed goes beyond that of Yoshi's air speed, who without Customs or Monado Arts involved is the character with the highest air speed. If Jump Shulk gets edge-guarded to the point he loses his Doublejump & only can rely on his Jump Art increasing the height of Air Slash's two-hitting attacks, then you must factor in his air speed / falling speed along with having good survival DI in order to make great usage of drifting to the stage.
Hm... you make some excellent points-- and I hadn't gotten the chance to retest Shulk in an edgeguarded scenario (organizing a duo for testing isn't always possible), so the amount of aerial control granted by (Jump) was underconsidered. Likewise, I'm not sure that this means he's much better off in terms of placement, but I'm considering if he'd skirt past M2 now, considering Mewtwo's extreme limitations in recovering sans double-jump.This is a decently fine analysis of Jump Shulk, but you must consider that his air speed goes beyond that of Yoshi's air speed, who without Customs or Monado Arts involved is the character with the highest air speed. If Jump Shulk gets edge-guarded to the point he loses his Doublejump & only can rely on his Jump Art increasing the height of Air Slash's two-hitting attacks, then you must factor in his air speed / falling speed along with having good survival DI in order to make great usage of drifting to the stage.
Drifting + airdodging when necessary can allow Jump Shulk to recover from such a low path pattern. As for the Villager Bowling Ball point, that can be arranged by not recovering directly underneath or even closely near the ledge. Air Slash's 2nd hit has huge range, & delaying the 2nd hit can easily bring Shulk much closer to the ledge horizontally. If the Villager were to start charging the bowling ball early from a read, he'll surely get hit & the bowling ball already dropped won't be in range to hit Shulk's hurtbox. Mainly you have to be smart recovering against the Bowling Ball. Although, in a scenario where Jump Shulk was ledge-trumped by Villager & decides to recover from low is his / her fault as imo, they should take advantage of their increased jump height & Doublejump outta there & go to the center of the stage.
Thank you for putting the time into your post btw.
EDIT: This isn't to say Jump Shulk should be higher or lower. I just wanted to address about his awesome air speed drifting ability that wasn't mentioned.
