Recovery Rankings

[One Tilt]

How about SS Tier? If you wanna quote it something like "Uncommon SS Tier", then maybe that fits, heh idk, it seems like it would be less effort than the 'move everyone down' thing.

Moving things down would keep some

I disagree with Luigi's placement here...

His Cyclone rises him crazy height and nice horizontal distance by itself. His air speed isn't really a problem since Green Missile covers most of horizontal distance Luigi need, and the point of Luigi Cyclone is to rise. The extra horizontal distance is pretty nifty too. So his recovery goes like this. Green Missile (Charge it) -> Double jumped Luigi Cyclone (If you aren't getting roughly 1.33x to 1.5x height of SJP, then I believe you are doing something wrong) -> SJP. He is also hard to gimp. Unless you gimp Luigi Cyclone, he will come back. And gimping Luigi Cyclone itself is a problem. Considering on how high and fast it rises, and it has quite huge hitbox.

He also has Fireballs for safety, and his SJP provides him invunerability when rising, making it perfect to grab ledges from below. His vertical, horizontal, and diagonal all above average IMO. I don't see why Luigi is placed in C tier: Where clear flaws often hinders one's recovery. He can also go high or low if he want to, and he is still not helpless unless he does his SJP. His mixups can also get him away from stagespikes or whatnot.

I doubt if he is below Marth/Lucina, as he has options to defend himself. You get caught in the Cyclone and it can potentially soft spike you. You get caught in Green Missile and you'll be send flying. Plus, he can choose to not to use his Cyclone, going for a SJP right below the ledge, which I'd say helps for his safety. That is all complaint I have. Argue with me if you find something off, but I believe this is true. Oh, and lol to tier below LM. There is somebody who has worse recovery than LM himself! Never knew about this, thanks!

I know, right? Worse than LM... just insane that such is a thing...

I actually agree with all your points on Luigi-- I've been testing him so extensively that now I'm actually picking him up as my secondary over Yoshi (because my secondary apparently must change weekly...), and his recovery feels quite a bit more decent than I'd gotten from just testing in a vacuum. My current mental placement feels somewhere between B- and C+. Horizontal recovery is worse than Brawler **22, but vertical surpasses. Still not feeling to rival Falco, though, who also has great horizontal, but with better vertical and similar safety (Luigi's side B is vulnerable, while Falco's vulnerable in his up B, so they're 'even-ish'). B- or C+ seem a much better fit... I'm leaning towards B- with Ness in C+, but it's hard to judge which of them belongs where when I've not played enough of Ness to get a sense of his recovery's intricacies firsthand.

I've said all this.

Also I'd like to appeal for Little Mac being better at recovering than Doctor Mario. Crazy, I know. But hear me out. From almost any point near the side blast zones, if Little Mac is sent diagonally, his jump + side B can usually recover. He's also got a walljump, and his up B is realy hard to edguard, as it goes through the stage's edges. If he's high up and just needs to land on the stage, he can neutral B to put himself in super armor, and most aerials don't have the power to break through that, especially at later stages. His best mixup though, is the counter. The counter not only boosts Little Mac forward, but also stops any gimping attempt. The best part is, no matter what, if your opponent tries to gimp you, even if you miss after the counter, Little Mac WILL still move forward. Horizontally, Little Mac can recover much better than Doc, since Doc only has pills and up B (as well as down B, but his isn't nearly as good as Luigi's)

Doc's down B is, at best, enough to bring his vertical reach up to about Mario's. Both have wall jumps, which has me considering them worth ignoring. That said... I'm finding it hard to argue for Doc, tbh... The strongest points I've got to cite are that LM can't drift any distance after up B and that his side B's nerf is very painful... as is his air presence in general. I'm pondering putting them in the same tier to show that the distance between them is minimal, though LM passing DMMD entirely still feels a bit... iffy. With LM no longer being the worst, though, I can't even stick with the 'of course LM deserves a tier dedicated to his suck' reasoning, now...

 

[TriTails]

Actually, unless you're Shulk or Marth/Lucina, Green Missile is quite hard to gimp. Plus, even if you gimp, Luigi Cyclone he says. But yeah, Luigi should be moved up.

About Doc...... God, it's unbelieveable (But not unreasonable) to put him in the same tier as LM, but I think they covers about same distance, Doc being farther, but not much.

So..... LM and Dox in the same tier now?

 

[san.]

Not so sure why Miis are getting split up. Are you planning on splitting up every character once you involve customs, or every weight/height Mii ratio?


Anyways, even if Gunner 2 has terrible distance on the upB, air and double jump distance isn't that bad, you can increase your air speed with fair, and you can actually cover yourself pretty easily as you return. It also goes up a decent amount, similar to Mario's upB, snaps to the ledge, follows your horizontal momentum, spikes opponents below, and has a powerful hitbox above. Definitely not worse than Mac's. Gunner's upB3 is at least as good of a recovery as upB1. It's fast and you can choose the direction, while 1 puts you in freefall after using it, making it not so great in situations where you can't snap very easily. Not to mention that 1 is likely to save the opponent unless there is a spiking hitbox I'm not aware of. The distance is also better for 3 for all situations bar a specific angle well below and slightly in front of the edge.

UpBs 1 and 3 are vulnerable from the top. You can usually get around this pretty easily, but it's an inherent weakness of the move that may show itself in such situations such as an offstage throw combo.

 

[Darklink401]

I'd say so.

I mean, Little Mac actually has interesting air options. His specials actually do good damage and knockback in the air, such as side B and up B, and if he KO punches in the air while recovering, it won't kill the opponent, but will get them the heck outta the way.

And to be fair, Little Mac actually drifts in the air rather well after a healthy jump.

 

[TriTails]

KO Punch has bad, I mean BAD, end lag in the air. So it's not gonna be very useful as a defensive options.

 

[Rakurai]

I'm a little confused as to how Wario is only in A tier when his recovery lets him go so deep that almost no characters other then Villager can actually try to follow and intercept him, not to mention the Bike and Waft both don't send you into a helpless state afterward.

His up B also has a surprising amount of disjoint on it, which makes it difficult to spike him.

 

[Darklink401]

KO Punch has bad, I mean BAD, end lag in the air. So it's not gonna be very useful as a defensive options.

It's good if you're high up, but I see your point

 

[One Tilt]

Actually, unless you're Shulk or Marth/Lucina, Green Missile is quite hard to gimp. Plus, even if you gimp, Luigi Cyclone he says. But yeah, Luigi should be moved up.

About Doc...... God, it's unbelieveable (But not unreasonable) to put him in the same tier as LM, but I think they covers about same distance, Doc being farther, but not much.

So..... LM and Dox in the same tier now?

That... very well could be the case. I'm struggling to find much reason for them to stay much different in the ranks.

Not so sure why Miis are getting split up. Are you planning on splitting up every character once you involve customs, or every weight/height Mii ratio?

Anyways, even if Gunner 2 has terrible distance on the upB, air and double jump distance isn't that bad, you can increase your air speed with fair, and you can actually cover yourself pretty easily as you return. It also goes up a decent amount, similar to Mario's upB, snaps to the ledge, follows your horizontal momentum, spikes opponents below, and has a powerful hitbox above. Definitely not worse than Mac's. Gunner's upB3 is at least as good of a recovery as upB1. It's fast and you can choose the direction, while 1 puts you in freefall after using it, making it not so great in situations where you can't snap very easily. Not to mention that 1 is likely to save the opponent unless there is a spiking hitbox I'm not aware of. The distance is also better for 3 for all situations bar a specific angle well below and slightly in front of the edge.

UpBs 1 and 3 are vulnerable from the top. You can usually get around this pretty easily, but it's an inherent weakness of the move that may show itself in such situations such as an offstage throw combo.

All very interesting points. Was not aware of the difference in ledge sweetspotting between the gunner 1 and 3, which certainly does make up for the differences to have them resolved as equal-- will consolidate them in the next update. The distance on Gunner 2's up B felt lower than LM's, as did their triple jump, but it was the lack of horizontal tools at all that really had me feeling it to be underwhelming, as even LM has such. That all said, if it's comperable to Doc's up B, then the main issue I see is the lack of horizontal/mixup counter to compete with LM or the lack of tornado making up for some range to compete with Doc... could be behind them in a tier for the three, if that's more palatable-- if the range isn't so crippling as my impression, though, I can always retest in more actual fights making use of it to get more of a feel for it, though.

I'm not certain of how significant the Mii height/weight statistics are when it comes to recovery. I know that weight is only a few points apart and figured I'd start by disregarding it. Miis are used with customs first specifically because no game mode with Miis enabled disallows the choosing of their custom moves. But yes, I do think that including relevant custom moves for other characters will be helpful for giving more information-- though, I may divide it up into three lists by that point: one for 'for glory' format (no miis or customs), one just without customs (save for the Miis), and one with all of the above... or perhaps I'll just do one with and without miis+customs altogether. I'm all for any formatting ideas! But yeah, the hitboxes on Gunner's upB 2 definitely sound quite nice, if nothing else-- my cursory testing of the Miis was a it frenetic.

I'm a little confused as to how Wario is only in A tier when his recovery lets him go so deep that almost no characters other then Villager can actually try to follow and intercept him, not to mention the Bike and Waft both don't send you into a helpless state afterward.

His up B also has a surprising amount of disjoint on it, which makes it difficult to spike him.

Honestly? There's no reason for him not to be higher, save that I don't know how much higher to put him. In at G&W's spot? I was thinking G&W might hop down a touch to the top of A+, actually...

 

[Rakurai]

I think that would be appropriate.

G&W's recovery is awesome between the sheer vertical height and generous invincibility frames, but it's still not as flexible as Wario's. Anyone who's easily able to go under Final Destination and make to the other side should be an automatic S minimum, IMO.

 

[TriTails]

I think that would be appropriate.

G&W's recovery is awesome between the sheer vertical height and generous invincibility frames, but it's still not as flexible as Wario's. Anyone who's easily able to go under Final Destination and make to the other side should be an automatic S minimum, IMO.

Nah, it depends on safety.

Plus, 'easily' is a bit hard to determine. People may say Luigi's FD Jump is hard, but for Luigi mains, at least for me, I find it quite easy.

FD Jump simply means a character's recovery is above average, I think. But 'best' recovery isn't all about distance. Safety matters, too.

 

[Lavani]

Luigi's FD jump actually has a ton of leniency. If you mash well you don't even need the upB.

I agree though, while a good measure of distance, FD crossunder does nothing to describe a character's recovery's safety or versatility (unless it's like, say, Villager/Jiggs/Olimar where they can actually cross under during a standard recovery). And at any rate, 31/51 characters can cross under FD so we'd have over half the cast in S rank by that measurement.

EDIT: 36/51 actually, I forgot to update my txt on this.

 

[TriTails]

You CAN do FD JUMP with LUIGI without SJP!?

This means my mashing skills are still below average.

Back on.... I think FD Jumpers should not be lower than C. Distance also matters, and FD Jumpers just proved their recovery's distances are no slouches. So I guess -> You can do FD Jump = Automatic no lower than C.

 

[Lavani]

My bad, I mixed up Battlefield and FD when I typed that bit. It wouldn't surprise me if Luigi can make the FD jump without upB though, I can nearly get him to the ledge and I'm far from being the best masher.

Anyway, I posted the FD list once earlier in the thread but I guess it's more relevant (and complete) now, so repost:

Spoiler

Luigi
Peach
Rosalina
Koopalings
Wario
Diddy
Link
Zelda
Sheik
Toon Link
Samus
ZSS
Pit
Kirby
Dedede
Meta Knight
Fox
Falco
Pikachu
Lucario
Jigglypuff
Greninja
Duck Hunt
R.O.B.
Ness
Villager
Olimar
WFT
Dark Pit
Shulk
Pac-Man
Sonic
Mii Brawler: xxx2
Mii Gunner

With customs:
Bowser: x2xx or x3xx
Ganondorf: xx33
Palutena: x2xx or x3xx or xxx2
Marth/Lucina: 3x3x
Mega Man: xx3x

EDIT: Okay I edited this thing several times now, so quick changelog:
- Removed x33x Charizard because he can cross under every omega except FD
- Added Greninja
- Added 3x3x Marth/Lucina
- Added Mii Gunner (any set)
- Unfortunately Added Dark Pit

 

[TriTails]

That's a lot.... But I assume some characters struggle? Like Link, who I assume has to depend on his bomb recovery?

Off-topic, but seriously, Link's Bombs take forever to blow up. You have to pull it out before you get launched, or else you'll most likely has to depend on your Spin Attack. Even if it blows up, most cases I have been, it usually blows up so far below that another Up-b is pointless.

Oh, and you forgot Pittoo.

 

[Lavani]

Yeah, it isn't free for some of those characters by any means (like Link/Samus, or Charizard who I had to edit out because he can cross under every omega except FD with customs on).

Oh, and you forgot Pittoo.

And I liked it more that way, thank you very much.

 

[Rakurai]

I didn't realize over half those characters could even make the jump.

In any case, Wario's recovery feels really safe, largely because of how flexible it is. Being able to take out the bike before or after you double jump offers you a lot of freedom to maneuver around/away from your opponent. The bike also offers him a good deal of protection while it's tilted backwards, and I almost never see Wario players actually get knocked off the bike unless they make the mistake of trying to take it out while their opponent is close by, letting them hit him before the hitbox on the bike becomes active.

 

[TriTails]

I didn't realize over half those characters could even make the jump.

In any case, Wario's recovery feels really safe, largely because of how flexible it is. Being able to take out the bike before or after you double jump offers you a lot of freedom to maneuver around/away from your opponent. The bike also offers him a good deal of protection while it's tilted backwards, and I almost never see Wario players actually get knocked off the bike unless they make the mistake of trying to take it out while their opponent is close by, letting them hit him before the hitbox on the bike becomes active.

Dunno... People say it's gimpable. I think they are refering to the part where Wario jumps outta his Bike, but I'm not sure myself.

 

[One Tilt]

Hm... my main question before updating, now, is: what do people think of B- through C? Luigi and Ness must move up, while the Mii Gunners are apt to be fused for being overly similar (likely keeping the lower ranking of the two), but I'm at a loss as to who to move where... they could both go in B-, I suppose, but that feels needlessly crowded... Speed Shulk feels so subtly different that it's hard to justify moving him further up, while WTF feels similar to Swordfighter *33*, even if I'm not 100% on either's placement... is WFT more gimpable, and thus better next to Marth? Who's better at recovery, Luigi, or Ness? Are they nearly equal? Luigi feels a bit better, but by what margin? Could be just the difference between who's first in the order. Gunner 1/3 feel identical to Robin if not slightly worse, considering the new information, though I can see them being at Gunner 1's old spot... What about base Shulk? Or ROB? I know my other changes, for the most part, but the B- to C area is feeling very confusing for me now...

B-
(**22)(*33*) (Speed)
C+
(**1*)
C
(**3*)

Edit: For the record, other changes include Wario, Game & Watch, Doctor Mario/Little Mac/ Gunner **2*, and Sheik/Pikachu moving down into S (along with Lucario passing ZSS), to accurately reflect just how distant Jump Art Kirby is in terms of recovery.

 

[TriTails]

I only know about Luigi vs Ness. So....

I'd say Luigi's faster and reach a little farther, and it's a little safer and less gimpable (As situational as it may be). Ness has his PKT2, yes, but he cannot recover right near a wall unless he is gud enough. His double jump is also slow in my opinion, I think I have B-aired Ness a few times during his double jump.

I think it's by a small margin, though. So I think they would be next to each other with Luigi being better.

About WFT..... she IS more gimpable, but she still has her Side-b for safety. But.... I don't really know.....

 

[One Tilt]

Updated to 3.1! And happy new year, to those applicable and all that.

I added a new, pink 'best' tier for Jump Art Kirby, using S+ to distinguish Pikachu/Shiek/Lucario slightly, just to keep S from having six (or from needing to move a bunch of tiers up in some sloppy migration-- I'd prefer to keep those to full-number updates if possible). Also removed E and F tiers to throw Mac/Gunner 2 up by Doc, since they're minimally different in the end. Wario is up to S-, taking G&W's old spot for having Kirby's range with none of the problems... which is fitting for a place just beside Jiggly. G&W, meanwhile, just slides down to just before Dedede, for now-- what he lacks in multi-jumps, he makes up for in airspeed and invulnerability over D3's super armor.

Shifted MM down past Charizard slightly, for 'zard's bit of superior flexibility. Fox never ceases to surprise me, as he's moved into A- while Rosalina shifts down to his old tier, though their places within those tiers are different. Rosie's recovery was simply similar distance with no hitboxes, in the end... honestly, Fox's distance might've been strictly better as well-- I've yet to see a Fox fail to recover due to distance, at least. Luigi and Ness are up to B-, given that Weegee's proved to be Falco-similar while Ness has proven to be infinitely less gimpable with PK Thunder tail trickery at higher levels of play (i.e. what matters in the end).

Brawler **22 is up a bit for my underestimating feint kick's diagonal/vertical range as a sweetspotting tool, while swordfighters *13* and *33* are down a tier each, for the spin attack feeling only slightly superior to Shulk's air slash. Gunners 1 and 3 were combined after that input on their being on far more equal footing than my limited testing had surmised, while Diddy's down a bit to behind them and Robin, because rocketbarrel pack is so gimpable that all the range in the world won't stop it from falling and falling and falling... D- is now the lowest tier, holding DMMD/LM/Gunner2, but their order remains the same for now... mostly because which is the 'best at being the worst' just seems a bit irrelevant for me to dissect just yet.

 

[Lavani]

I'm confused as to the placement of Gunner...well, specifically Gunner2. Why so low?

 

[Antonykun]

Soooooo.... now that you opened the can of worms that is Kirby, lets talk about all the moves he can use to recover or at least place speed and shield Kirby somewhere.

 

[One Tilt]

I'm confused as to the placement of Gunner...well, specifically Gunner2. Why so low?

Gunner 2's recovery seemed like it was comperable to Dr. Mario's, sans the tornado. Between double-jump and tricks like wall jump and Fair, I could see gunner 2 being at more like D+, for having safety and coverage despite the lack of distance... But it's quite difficult for me to tell how much safer it might be than Doc or LM's recoveries. I'm all for moving gunner 2, I just can't figure out the 'where'-- so, for now, I'd just bumped it up out of some isolated tier. Counting double-jump, LM still has better reach, and neither feel to be particularly gimpable during the course of their up B... Again, could go quite a bit higher, it's just a bit new to me to have to actually consider the differences between someone's kit and LM's...

Soooooo.... now that you opened the can of worms that is Kirby, lets talk about all the moves he can use to recover or at least place speed and shield Kirby somewhere.

Speed Kirby feels even less distinct from Kirby than Speed Shulk does from Shulk. While Defense form has the jumps feeling more sluggish, I was expecting more like metal AIs (i.e. guaranteed SDs), but it's actually not too drastic a change. Certainly enough of a change to drop Kirby a good few places in Defense form, mind you, but not so extreme as Shulk's... particularly given that Kirby's slow fall speed and multiple jumps means that he can change out of Defense quite a bit more easily. Of the other specials, I can honestly only see rollout as being significantly important, yet, even that, I'm a bit undecided on its merits as a recovery versus Kirby's other tools...

 

[Masonomace]

After messing around with Speed Kirby & Shield Kirby, I think Shield Kirby is. . .best suited to be in D Tier, to be above or below DK. Shield mode takes all the bad aspects about Kirby in the air & just makes it 10x more worse for poor Kirby to the point 3 mid-air jumps mean nothing & is practically the same as a DoubleJump to DK, while the Final Cutter's horizontal movement is shot being a poor recovery option despite having the height retained.

As for Speed Kirby. . .it's a weird twist because the Jump Height in all of Kirby's mid-air jumps are bad, except that the air speed is so fluid it makes up for the bad jump height & it increases the horizontal distance of the Final Cutter when moving sideways completely. Speed Kirby by far recovers horizontally greater than vanilla Kirby, but it would be a huge stretch to say Speed Kirby is amazing like Jump Kirby. I'd put Speed Kirby in A+ Tier as really the main flaw to Speed Kirby is how high he recovers.


As for the Copy abilities worth the most for recovery purposes, it's these:

 

[TriTails]

I don't see why Bowser Jr. is as same tier as Mario. I do recall his Side-b can give quite a horizontal distance, and Up-b is pretty risky, but you can try to grab ledge with it and dat hammer attack.

 

[Lavani]

Gunner 2's recovery seemed like it was comperable to Dr. Mario's, sans the tornado. Between double-jump and tricks like wall jump and Fair, I could see gunner 2 being at more like D+, for having safety and coverage despite the lack of distance... But it's quite difficult for me to tell how much safer it might be than Doc or LM's recoveries. I'm all for moving gunner 2, I just can't figure out the 'where'-- so, for now, I'd just bumped it up out of some isolated tier. Counting double-jump, LM still has better reach, and neither feel to be particularly gimpable during the course of their up B... Again, could go quite a bit higher, it's just a bit new to me to have to actually consider the differences between someone's kit and LM's...

Gunner's vertical with upB 2 might be bad, but the character has great air speed for solid horizontal recovery (even before fair abuse) and projectiles to help cover its recovery. I have essentially no experience with the character myself, but considering this is possible even with upB 2 it's rather insulting to put the character on the same level as Mac and Doc.

I don't see why Bowser Jr. is as same tier as Mario. I do recall his Side-b can give quite a horizontal distance, and Up-b is pretty risky, but you can try to grab ledge with it and dat hammer attack.

story time

yesterday i 0-deathed a bowser jr with fthrow>bair and then daired his upB

the end

His recovery's distance is great, but the fact that getting hit by light hits during upB means death doesn't make it very safe and can lead to low percent deaths.

 

[LogicallyHank]

Can anyone help me with Diddy Kong's recovery? I feel like once you're below the map you can't recover because it takes too long for your rocket barrels to charge

 

[One Tilt]

After messing around with Speed Kirby & Shield Kirby, I think Shield Kirby is. . .best suited to be in D Tier, to be above or below DK. Shield mode takes all the bad aspects about Kirby in the air & just makes it 10x more worse for poor Kirby to the point 3 mid-air jumps mean nothing & is practically the same as a DoubleJump to DK, while the Final Cutter's horizontal movement is shot being a poor recovery option despite having the height retained.

As for Speed Kirby. . .it's a weird twist because the Jump Height in all of Kirby's mid-air jumps are bad, except that the air speed is so fluid it makes up for the bad jump height & it increases the horizontal distance of the Final Cutter when moving sideways completely. Speed Kirby by far recovers horizontally greater than vanilla Kirby, but it would be a huge stretch to say Speed Kirby is amazing like Jump Kirby. I'd put Speed Kirby in A+ Tier as really the main flaw to Speed Kirby is how high he recovers.


As for the Copy abilities worth the most for recovery purposes, it's these:

I get that they add to his recovery, but my question is more of whether they add enough to Kirby's recovery to be relevant-- slowly as he falls, tools that require charging to get some horizontal distance feel a bit underwhelming. I can agree with Kirby being at A+ with Speed form, though-- its differences are minor, but likely on-par with the Sonic copy ability.

I can certainly see the problems with Defense Kirby that'd place him near to DK/Ganon levels, I'm just wondering how relevant Kirby's Defense form heights are when switching out has so much more leeway... actually, in testing, while it's more relevant than Shulk, it's still pretty terrible.

I don't see why Bowser Jr. is as same tier as Mario. I do recall his Side-b can give quite a horizontal distance, and Up-b is pretty risky, but you can try to grab ledge with it and dat hammer attack.

He might be bumped up to the same tier as Diddy in the next update, thinking of it. He has no safety issues so crippling that he could be called worse at recovery than Diddy. Still, as Lavani said, it's far from a safe recovery, as the clown car typically doesn't respawn until you get to the stage... preventing you from reusing it if hit.

Gunner's vertical with upB 2 might be bad, but the character has great air speed for solid horizontal recovery (even before fair abuse) and projectiles to help cover its recovery. I have essentially no experience with the character myself, but considering this is possible even with upB 2 it's rather insulting to put the character on the same level as Mac and Doc.

Hm... okay, it actually has a fair bit more horizontal drift than expected, and, despite the visual height differences, LM's sweetspot on up B is incredibly limited by comparison. Add to that the fact that Mii Gunner has massively improved airspeed to Swordfighter, and you have solid argument. Comparing air speed between Mii styles hadn't occurred to me, so I'd been basing them off of Swordfighter and Brawler without even noticing. Considering all this, I'd say Gunner 2 is... honestly? Perhaps the same as 1 and 3. The added safety is significant, but the Gunner's recovery feels pretty solid regardless of the up B. They seem to be direct tradeoffs rather than better/worse than each other, and the Gunner's air speed, projectiles, and double jump all make up for those minor differences. That all said, coming to this conclusion had me gleam some... startling information. After so many hours' practice with Weegee, I can actually pull of DMMD's tornado rather easily now, and he's feeling... surprisingly useful. LM may indeed need to drop down to a tier of his own once more, though, Doc won't be lonely, given that Defense Shulk feels a bit worse, given that truly, truly abysmal horizontal recovery... particularly given Doc's own horizontal recovery. Still, DMMD's up B is so piddly that a single missed B on his tornado can leave him falling past his up B range... that, added to the fact that Ganon outranges him has me thinking Doc won't rise, but distinguishing him from LM is still a good call. As for LM Himself, a nice little 'Worst' tier, a la Jump Kirby's 'Best', will do.

Can anyone help me with Diddy Kong's recovery? I feel like once you're below the map you can't recover because it takes too long for your rocket barrels to charge

Unfortunately, that's rather the nature of Diddy's recovery. If you can double jump to get extra air time for the charge, it's not quite so stifling-- or if you can wall jump instead. The rocketbarrel pack is pretty much a last resort for Diddy's recovery, and, even as that, it's pretty bad. Poor control, stalling startup that doesn't prevent falling, instantly killing one who's hit out of it, et cetera... Even if I'm unsure of Diddy's exact placement, there are certainly plenty of reasons for his staying in the lower side of things.

 

[One Tilt]

Updated to 3.2!

While cute for 3.0, I think tier definitions will stick to full-number updates or the like-- they're massively high-maintenance for extremely little information. Needlessly complicated things, which was contrary to their purpose of creating some clarity (they were quite spammy and vague). Dark Pit's > Pit and Lucina's > Marth, for extremely tiny details ('better' side B and no-sourspot up B being 'safer', respectively). But that's tiny news, subtle like that Jigglypuff and Speed were added to Kirby's Sonic copy placement. Shulk's Speed form, actually, is up a tiny bit within his tier, after some extra practice showed off its perks a bit more.

Mii Gunner's custom moves have been removed, and the combined Gunner sans annotations has been placed in C+ for excellent air speed, coverage, and so on... I finally got the chance to test Gunner 2 in some real games, and it felt... remarkably well-rounded, really. Most of my notes on that are in my previous post, so I'll spare that redundancy and just mention that, since none felt clearly 'better', there was no reason not to trim Gunner down to a single spot. Speaking of airspeed, though, Swordfighter **3* was dropped down below Gunner for just that, while Swordfighter *13* was trimmed out for being so marginally different.

Bowser Jr. is up next to Diddy Kong, slightly ahead of him, actually, for having slightly better safety (at least reaching the ledge grants the up B back, and his side B/acting out of up B give him an edge, despite Diddy's walljumping). Kirby Defense has taken Shulk Defense's old spot, as the latter has moved down behind DMMD, after realizing how far superior Ganon's range is. And a new 'Worst' tier, similar to 'Best', has been added, this time tailor-made for Little Mac... whose boxing gloves apparently disallow him from grabbing ledges without them being within biting range adding to his exhaustive list of crippling flaws.

---

It's a bit less content than a typical update, granted, but the changes are a bit more technical than any I've done previously-- updates are as much a means of reflecting the discussion as anything, though, so I'd feel neglectful leaving the first post sans-update after having several new perspectives presented. It'd have me feeling like I was ignoring people, which is the last thing I intend to do with the listings. ^^

 

[G-Guy]

How come that G&W's horizontal recovery is criticized when Fire + Parachute let's him travel miles. Especially after he gets launched, immediate Fire&Float to help aproach the ledge -> Nair,Fair,Dair depending on pressure/own height -> 2nd jump seems really safe to do, imo

 

[One Tilt]

How come that G&W's horizontal recovery is criticized when Fire + Parachute let's him travel miles. Especially after he gets launched, immediate Fire&Float to help aproach the ledge -> Nair,Fair,Dair depending on pressure/own height -> 2nd jump seems really safe to do, imo

By using his up B early to make use of the parachute, G&W's horizontal recovery is a bit less safe than Zelda or such. The fact that he can act out of it is fantastic, but he lacks for mixups or flexibility. That said, him and Wario are a bit interchangable at the moment, and they could easily switch places (or G&W just head to S-). G&W is starting to feel like the new Villager as far as hopping about the high tiers, though.

 

[G-Guy]

By using his up B early to make use of the parachute, G&W's horizontal recovery is a bit less safe than Zelda or such. The fact that he can act out of it is fantastic, but he lacks for mixups or flexibility. That said, him and Wario are a bit interchangable at the moment, and they could easily switch places (or G&W just head to S-). G&W is starting to feel like the new Villager as far as hopping about the high tiers, though.

As a former Wa main, i gotta say that he relies too much on the Bike for recovery. This gets evident in the villager MU, who can just snag it away. G&W always felt really safe for me and it is important to note that he never enters a fall state while recovering.

Sausage spam can also hinder the opponent, while Dair can punish people chasing from below.

I agree with Zelda's teleport being safer than Gdub's recovery, but his flexibility, fall-state-less recovery and undependency on items (i.e. wario) are all things other characters would die for. Just my 2 cents though :-)

 

[One Tilt]

As a former Wa main, i gotta say that he relies too much on the Bike for recovery. This gets evident in the villager MU, who can just snag it away. G&W always felt really safe for me and it is important to note that he never enters a fall state while recovering.

Sausage spam can also hinder the opponent, while Dair can punish people chasing from below.

I agree with Zelda's teleport being safer than Gdub's recovery, but his flexibility, fall-state-less recovery and undependency on items (i.e. wario) are all things other characters would die for. Just my 2 cents though :-)

Hm... all fair points, particularly Wario's bike being nabbable and G&W's neutral B coverage. Alright, I'll do a quick swap for them within the current update, since it was only posted a few hours ago. Appreciate the input-- it's quite the handy coincidence to have someone who looks to play quite a bit of both chime in.

 

[Conradical]

Falco's recovery has to be higher on the list. I have proof here:

 

[Aalz]

Made an acc to chip in that you may want to consider taking a look at greninjas down b substitute. If used off stage it can be angled toward the stage and is quite fast and strong.

 

[Gamr_8]

Only one thing to say (well I guess 2?)

 

[Lukingordex]

edit: ignore this post, wrong thread lol

 

[One Tilt]

Falco's recovery has to be higher on the list. I have proof here:

To clarify, posting a video of someone passing under an omega stage isn't a free pass for a character to hit higher tiers. It can certainly help to demonstrate something that's being overlooked, but I don't think anyone was questioning that Falco's horizontal recovery was great. Luigi and Mii Brawler can pull similar shenanigans, and they're placed fairly close by. With just a video, I'm not sure of what point, if any, you're aiming to make. Are you trying to say Falco's recovery is safe? That his range makes up for his lack of safety? I don't really know unless you give me more than 'he has to be higher'. Even just mentioning where you think he belongs gives me more to go on, as I can at least try to connect the dots from there. Links require context.

Made an acc to chip in that you may want to consider taking a look at greninjas down b substitute. If used off stage it can be angled toward the stage and is quite fast and strong.

Greninja is quite high on the list, and for good reason, but he's very slightly worse off then ZSS in terms of mixups, while them, along with Villager, feel the tiniest bit less consistent than Pikachu/Shiek/Lucario. The differences between them are extremely slight, and all are most certainly very much above and beyond what you'd ever practically 'need'-- just like those in S-, really. Those in S+ are even pretty resilient to user error, whereas those in S can be screwed by some very specific circumstances (multihits on Villager's balloons, someone taking the difficult shot at Greninja mid up B (or using a predictive projectile), ZSS getting caught offstage facing backwards out of up B range... It takes a slightly more notable set of minor circumstantial weaknesses to hit S- (Jiggs footstooling, MK jump-gimped, Zelda out-of-range, G&W hit out of parachute/range...), but, overall, S tiers in general are quite a cut about as a whole. That all said, I don't really understand the point you're trying to make-- Greninja's great mixup game with all his specials being so useful offstage is certainly fantastic for his recovery, but I don't know if you're requesting that he be higher or what. I do tend to forget that you can angle the specials with controller input rather than simply having them forced to dash in the wrong direction-- or do you mean some different 'angling'?

Only one thing to say (well I guess 2?)

I have never been so confused. Is there some in-joke of leading me in with new poses about various characters and then making no claims about them? Do you approve? Disapprove? Want them higher? Lower? What do you people want from me!?

Ah, but no, really, what is even going on? I need context! What are you trying to say!? I literally can't find something to draw discussion from given, like, any of these posts. In fact...

edit: ignore this post, wrong thread lol

Wait! Don't go! What're your thoughts on (wait let me look at the mains bar) Yoshi!? Agree? Disagree? Higher? Lower?

An input device is required.

...I hope everyone has enjoyed that. In all seriousness, I can't draw data from stray thoughts in a vacuum sans context and sans opinions, so I figured I'd just completely lose it for a moment (completely intentional ). If anyone needs me, I'll just be over here in the fetal position until I see a question mark.

(Warning: This post is comedy. It is written for comedic effect. Its purpose is comedic. This warning is redundant.)

 

[Conradical]

To clarify, posting a video of someone passing under an omega stage isn't a free pass for a character to hit higher tiers. It can certainly help to demonstrate something that's being overlooked, but I don't think anyone was questioning that Falco's horizontal recovery was great. Luigi and Mii Brawler can pull similar shenanigans, and they're placed fairly close by. With just a video, I'm not sure of what point, if any, you're aiming to make. Are you trying to say Falco's recovery is safe? That his range makes up for his lack of safety? I don't really know unless you give me more than 'he has to be higher'. Even just mentioning where you think he belongs gives me more to go on, as I can at least try to connect the dots from there. Links require context.

What I was tying to say is that Falco has great horizontal recovery AND its safe because even if you are being edgeguarded (or stageguarded), you can just move to the other side of the ledge. Sorry for my unclear previous post.

 

[Lavani]

It isn't really that safe though. UpB has a lot of startup, and while CPU Tink just fired projectiles uselessly toward center stage, there was enough time for a human player to run off the left edge and bair Falco for a stagespike. Falco doesn't have the recovery distance to cover this with a fakeout by turning around and going back to the original ledge either (see: Jiggs, Olimar, Villager).

The lengthy startup on upB makes Falco's recovery less safe than it otherwise could be.

Though I'm not sure what's up with the tier distance between him and Fox considering their recoveries are nearly identical.