Reconciliation of Evil, the Ganondorf match-up Discussion

[Spralwers]

Forgot about this thread. Posting revised thoughts on the DK match up.

It's basically a matter of DK being equal to or better than us at just about everything. He has the big hit boxes and power just like we do, but he has the better recovery, a decent OoS option (up B), the grab reach we wish we had, and most importantly, much better mobility and speed. His punish game is way better unless we still have huge untapped potential. The only real advantage we have is side B, and in the match up, DK's tech roll doesn't go far enough (unlike say Link or Zelda) for side B tech chasing to be a risky option. Dash dance away + side B makes Ganon go back far enough to avoid pretty much any attack DK will do in neutral, and create a huge opportunity for a great punish. Other than that though, DK is pretty much a better Ganondorf lol.

Edge guarding can be a little tricky. If he recovers high, the default options are uair or sometimes fair, but a really good one is ledge jump bair. If he goes horizontally to the ledge, reverse uair, fair, and dair are pretty good. If he tries to sweetspot from below, I'm thinking either dair or double jump wizkick.

With both a superior neutral and punish game, I don't think a good Ganon player should ever beat a good DK, but hopefully I'm wrong.

Stages are tricky, I'm not really sure if Ganon has any favorable stages. While you would want a small stage to limit DK's mobility, it makes it that much easier for DK to hit you and kill you early as well. Platforms are nice for escaping DK combos, but platforms can also be nice for some well spaced cargo throw combos. Stage list legality varies depending on location, but definitely have these in your ban list: skyworld, norfair, skyloft, and fd. The platforms in skyworld, norfair, and skyloft are just the right height for DK to do crazy cargo throw combos. FD gives you maximum mileage out of your chaingrab (which you can do to 40-50%), but DK gets way more mileage out of the lack of platforms than you do.

 

[teluoborg]

Dk's Bair rhymes with Nightmare. Coincidence ?

 

[Yanoss1313]

Dk's Bair rhymes with Nightmare. Coincidence ?

i guess the only thing we have going for us is how huge DK is. Slightly better chances on double hit on Dacus >.>... *shrugs*

 

[Scuba Steve]

Edgeguarding DK is super easy too. Fair and Bair both beat out his swinging arms and he's super susceptible to dairs from above.

 

[Yanoss1313]

Edgeguarding DK is super easy too. Fair and Bair both beat out his swinging arms and he's super susceptible to dairs from above.

while that's true, i think DK has just as easy a time edge guarding us too.

 

[Scuba Steve]

while that's true, i think DK has just as easy a time edge guarding us too.

Who doesn't? Ganon's recovery sucks lol

 

[shwickid222]

Can we get a mewtwo mu??

 

[Scuba Steve]

Can we get a mewtwo mu??

I think somebody went over it briefly somewhere on the Ganon boards. Short answer is that it kinda sucks.

 

[Yanoss1313]

yeah, pretty much what Steve said.... only manlier =D

 

[shwickid222]

U guys are a riot lol.

 

[ImpossiblyRood]

I personally have a lot of trouble with Marth and a 50/50 problem with ROB.

I personally just hate fighting Marths. They have such irritating combo strings that Ganon is perfectly heavy enough to fall into consistently. Not to mention his tipper edgeguards kicking my ass. This is the one I really need help with. Sometimes I can kick the snot out of a Marth, if my bait/punish game is going well, but I feel like there are other things I can do to crush the bones of Princess Marth.

ROB isn't a huge problem when on stage. His size makes him eat my dunks and upairs real easy, and I generally don't have a huge problem with tops/beams. Granted I haven't played a hell of a lot of ROBs, but that's how I see it. My problem is his laughably easy gimps on me. Grab at the edge sends me offstage, downair my recovery, dead. Every time. It's infuriating, because I can rip open his chassis and eat his computer chips for breakfast when we're both on stage, or if I need to edgeguard I can get really easy dunk-guards... but he has such an easy time forcing me to recover that I end up having an inferiority complex to that under-selling robot. Aside from not getting grabbed, what else can I do to help my matchup?

 

[Spralwers]

I personally have a lot of trouble with Marth and a 50/50 problem with ROB.

I personally just hate fighting Marths. They have such irritating combo strings that Ganon is perfectly heavy enough to fall into consistently. Not to mention his tipper edgeguards kicking my ***. This is the one I really need help with. Sometimes I can kick the snot out of a Marth, if my bait/punish game is going well, but I feel like there are other things I can do to crush the bones of Princess Marth.

I highly recommend reading the melee guides, then adding PM Ganon material where applicable. If you need ideas on where to add PM Ganon material I'd be willing to help you out. There's a lot of good Marths in MA so I have decent practice in the match up. I'd say my ideas but I really want you to read that material first. if you haven't already. Mainly because it'll give you such a solid base on how to handle the MU.

 

[CORY]

Can we get a mewtwo mu??

i don't have much experience against mewtwo, but from what i can tell, it's just terrible.

his shadowball is fast enough that if mewtwo REALLY wants to, he can just run away with it all day and there's not much you can do to deal with it on reaction. it's also strong enough to clank wizkicks once it's been charged a bit, so you can't even really use that to burst up into his face reliably.

beyond that, his tilts are also miserable to deal with, especially once he's got you having to deal with shadowball spam. if mewtwo can keep his spacing up, more sad times for ganon.

and then, when you do get a hit, ganon isn't about fast guaranteed comboes, he usually gets two hits, then chases you and forces you to get hit by a meaty hitbox as you're falling. mewtwo can give no ****s and just teleport away, out of extended combos, and ganon is too slow to feint an attack then go for the teleport destination reliably and attempt a preemptive punish. to add to this, his rolls are also pretty long, meaning it's hard to get good punishes out of techs/shield situations, since he can go past wizkick distance (i could be wrong on this, but that's definitely what it felt like with his rolls. don't remember tech rolls too well...).

on mewtwo's side, once he gets you offstage, he should almost be guaranteed the stock, with hover-bair chains and a dair spike he can go really deep with.

 

[Scuba Steve]

his shadowball is fast enough that if mewtwo REALLY wants to, he can just run away with it all day and there's not much you can do to deal with it on reaction. it's also strong enough to clank wizkicks once it's been charged a bit, so you can't even really use that to burst up into his face reliably.

to add to this, his rolls are also pretty long, meaning it's hard to get good punishes out of techs/shield situations, since he can go past wizkick distance (i could be wrong on this, but that's definitely what it felt like with his rolls. don't remember tech rolls too well...).

I play a mewtwo player fairly often. I think you give the shadowballs too much credit. They don't move too quickly and if they're just mostly throwing out quick ones without charging, you can usually pick up on their spam patterns and just plow through it with a wizard's foot and that will usually be enough to scare them from throwing it out too much. They're also one of the easier projectiles to powershield.

Mewtwo's tech rolls are pretty redonkulous, though. Wizkicks are ill advised for tech chasing because you have to cover so much distance whenever he rolls that they can usually put their shield up before you reach them. When following one of Mewtwo's techs, you are pretty much always having to go for a hard read.

 

[Spralwers]

I had the pleasure of fighting M2K's M2 with Ganon. That was not fun at all lol.

With regards to shadowball, if you see it coming, PS it, jab it, or FTilt it. That and Lucario's shadowball are projectiles that Ganon can definitely deal with to the point where it's not much of a disadvantage in the MU, as opposed to say lasers, rang, stun shot, and razor leaf.

 

[CORY]

ah, cool. i only played that mewtwo (and mewtwo in general...) a few times at a tourney, and what was catching me was how fast the shadowballs moved, mostly.

now that i think back on it, most of the matches were on fd (post tourney free play...), so once i picked off of that it helped a bit.

 

[Krusty Kid]

How does Ganon do against Luigi and Zard as PM currently stands?

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

How does Ganon do against Luigi and Zard as PM currently stands?

Pretty sure that both match-ups are slightly in Ganon's favor.

He outranges Luigi pretty hard, and Luigi's recovery is linear enough to edgeguard effectively. He's pretty mobile though, and hard to combo, so it certainly isn't a cakewalk by any means.

As for Zard, it's a little trickier. I believe that once you learn how to out-space his bonkers nair, punishing Zard is brutal. He's a good combo weight for Ganon as well (though Ganon gets comboed crazy hard as well). The match-up is likely even, but it might be slightly in Ganon's favor.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

Pretty sure that both match-ups are slightly in Ganon's favor.

He outranges Luigi pretty hard, and Luigi's recovery is linear enough to edgeguard effectively. He's pretty mobile though, and hard to combo, so it certainly isn't a cakewalk by any means.

As for Zard, it's a little trickier. I believe that once you learn how to out-space his bonkers nair, punishing Zard is brutal. He's a good combo weight for Ganon as well (though Ganon gets comboed crazy hard as well). The match-up is likely even, but it might be slightly in Ganon's favor.

My younger bother mains Zard and while overall I'm a better player than him and usually win it's really hard to out space Zard. His Nair, side B and even fair (which comes out super quick) is very difficult to deal with. And since we play a lot together he knows full well Ganon's limitations (which are quite a few) mainly Ganon's "nipple" grab (our nickname for it cause it sooooo short) which he uses for his advantage, cause he knows even if I do a forward tilt and he blocks it he can grab me (cause Zard has a long grab range) and if he does pretty much any move I can't grab him back unless he doesn't space well and is literally on my shield...

Also once I'm in the air with Ganon an he does a grounded down B to chase after me he is pretty safe and Ganon's Dair can do so much, if air down B's hitbox was fixed to be the whole leg and foot Ganon would have a great option to combat an aerial assault.

Also once I'm at 115%- 125% if Zard grabs me and does an Up throw I'm most likely dead. That's due to him spacing well and grabbing me but still Ganon's moves don't extend far from his body while Zard's grab is longer than a lot of Ganon's moves. And if I stand dodge it's usually to slow and he grabs me anyway....

To summarize although it fairly even it's more in Zard's favor imo. Like a 65/50ish to Zard.

 

[Krusty Kid]

Thanks guys

 

[Scuba Steve]

To summarize although it fairly even it's more in Zard's favor imo. Like a 65/50ish to Zard.

Please don't be so quick to make judgements on match-ups based on such a small sample size, especially when match-ups are supposed to be based on the highest possible level of play.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

Please don't be so quick to make judgements on match-ups based on such a small sample size, especially when match-ups are supposed to be based on the highest possible level of play.

I'm sorry if it seemed that way, what I wrote was just my experience with the match-up, I still think that Zard has a minor advantage though mostly due to his "rangey" moves and grab.

 

[Spralwers]

I believe Ganon has the advantage but slight in the Luigi MU, for the reasons Headcrab stated. Zard is a tough MU to evaluate. They both play the same game of outreaching each other, but Zard is overall faster, while Ganon's reach is enhanced somewhat by how big Zard is.

 

[teluoborg]

One thing I learnt in the Samus matchup today : If she Zair grabs the ledge and you can force a ledge jump, you can punish it with Fair.

Also Ganon's life is way easier when people can't shieldgrab you.

 

[Bazkip]

One thing I learnt in the Samus matchup today : If she Zair grabs the ledge and you can force a ledge jump, you can punish it with Fair.

Also Ganon's life is way easier when people can't shieldgrab you.

From my experience it's pretty easy to get ledgedrop bairs when she's recovering, but I haven't played many Samus players.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

From my experience it's pretty easy to get ledgedrop bairs when she's recovering, but I haven't played many Samus players.

Any good Samus player should know that they have the tools to avoid that.

Samus can cancel her tether into a Screw Attack or even another tether, time the air dodge to go through whatever you've got (assuming she's that close or you're that deep), or just time the reel-in to avoid you. Canceling into a Screw Attack makes a forced ledge jump from tether hard to achieve as well, and can actually end in a hard punish for you if you're hit by it.

Ideally, you can just hit her off stage, but that can be very difficult against a good player. Where you get real results in edge guarding Samus is by taking advantage of her fairly lackluster ledge game. Just prepare yourself to punish whatever option she takes off the ledge, and Samus will have a very hard time making it back.

 

[Bazkip]

Any good Samus player should know that they have the tools to avoid that.

Samus can cancel her tether into a Screw Attack or even another tether, time the air dodge to go through whatever you've got (assuming she's that close or you're that deep), or just time the reel-in to avoid you. Canceling into a Screw Attack makes a forced ledge jump from tether hard to achieve as well, and can actually end in a hard punish for you if you're hit by it.

Ideally, you can just hit her off stage, but that can be very difficult against a good player. Where you get real results in edge guarding Samus is by taking advantage of her fairly lackluster ledge game. Just prepare yourself to punish whatever option she takes off the ledge, and Samus will have a very hard time making it back.

Ah, alright, guess the Samus' I've played against just weren't very experienced with her. Cheers for the advice.

 

[teluoborg]

Oh yea I'll definitely tell that to the Samus I played.

 

[TimeMuffinPhD]

I played in my first tournament today against a lot of Ganons, one which I beat and then one which I lost to in losers finals. I was playing Wolf and I found it easy enough to beat Ganon in neutral, however I couldn't manage to kill him. I wasn't sure how to edgeguard him and he was always over 100% and I feel that was a big impact in me losing the game. Any thoughts?

 

[Scuba Steve]

When edgeguarding Ganon, grab ledge. Ganon's recovery is pretty bad and when you grab ledge it takes away a lot of his options.

 

[CORY]

dr. drew put it this way: (after you've grabbed the ledge and forced ganon to start to recover)
"once i see him start to up b, i just put a bair in his way. there are a few bairs that don't work like that, but that's the general idea. make him upb, put a bair in his path."

you can use the same basic idea with his overb, as well, just make sure to space your attack a bit better, since he'll be flying directly towards you (albeit, with a negatively disjointed grab-box) and you can make magic happen.

also, if wolf has anything that can clip below the ledge, while you're still on the ledge, you basically win. i think i saw that his dsmash can go below the stage slightly?

 

[Electric Tuba]

I played a Zelda in local weeklies the other day and basically lost to fireball edgeguards. Once I was off stage, there were usually three din's fires on/around the ledge that i couldn't find a solid way to get around.

Anyone else have trouble with this or have ideas to get back onstage/past fireballs?

 

[TimeMuffinPhD]

dr. drew put it this way: (after you've grabbed the ledge and forced ganon to start to recover)
"once i see him start to up b, i just put a bair in his way. there are a few bairs that don't work like that, but that's the general idea. make him upb, put a bair in his path."

you can use the same basic idea with his overb, as well, just make sure to space your attack a bit better, since he'll be flying directly towards you (albeit, with a negatively disjointed grab-box) and you can make magic happen.

also, if wolf has anything that can clip below the ledge, while you're still on the ledge, you basically win. i think i saw that his dsmash can go below the stage slightly?

Yeah in the match I managed to dair him when he was recovering once, if I could that consistently that would really help. I should've camped the ledge a bit more, I really wasn't confident though - I'll practice it and next time I'll be able to do it

 

[Spralwers]

I played a Zelda in local weeklies the other day and basically lost to fireball edgeguards. Once I was off stage, there were usually three din's fires on/around the ledge that i couldn't find a solid way to get around.

Anyone else have trouble with this or have ideas to get back onstage/past fireballs?

Your choices will usually be:

take the hits and DI accordingly (will require either good DI intuition or trial and error to figure out optimal DI)
recover from below and use the "hand" part of up B to both cancel out the dins and grab the ledge
attack the dins with aerials like uair, assuming you are in a position to still reach the ledge afterwards

 

[Scuba Steve]

I played a Zelda in local weeklies the other day and basically lost to fireball edgeguards. Once I was off stage, there were usually three din's fires on/around the ledge that i couldn't find a solid way to get around.

Anyone else have trouble with this or have ideas to get back onstage/past fireballs?

I'm pretty sure that I play the same Zelda that you're talking about here pretty much every week at that weekly, so I think I can offer some advice lol.

As for getting back on stage, I usually just fair or upair them as I'm getting back to the ledge as long as I'm not leaving myself open.

Some other noteworthy stuff about the Zelda match-up. I actually think this a good match-up for Ganon. If the Zelda player ever starts to set up Din's too close to you, you can just wizard foot straight through it and kick her straight in the face. The bonus is that this will also make them more hesitant to set up Din's traps. You should also try to stay in a sort of sweet spot distance from her that makes it so you are too close for them to set up Din's traps, but also too far away to get hit by Nayru's. Use spaced autocancelled nairs and ftilts a bunch because Zelda's range can't really challenge either of those moves too much. Another big thing, Zelda players seem to really like setting up Din's whenever they're recovering back to the stage. Usually, they get to do this for free because everyone is dumb and whines about "Zelda too stronk" rather than learning the match-up. However, you can just jump offstage and punch them right in the face while they try to set up their Din's like so. Lastly, be conservative with what followups you go for. Zelda's pretty floaty, so she will leave hitstun pretty quickly. You have to be careful for what followups you go for, or else you can eat a sweetspotted fair or bair from her. Learn when they like to them out, whether it be to cover their descent or to get out of a combo, and bait it out and punish appropriately.

Hope this helps with your Zelda troubles, fellow Austinite!

 

[ShadowGanon]

I'm pretty sure that I play the same Zelda that you're talking about here pretty much every week at that weekly, so I think I can offer some advice lol.

As for getting back on stage, I usually just fair or upair them as I'm getting back to the ledge as long as I'm not leaving myself open.

Some other noteworthy stuff about the Zelda match-up. I actually think this a good match-up for Ganon. If the Zelda player ever starts to set up Din's too close to you, you can just wizard foot straight through it and kick her straight in the face. The bonus is that this will also make them more hesitant to set up Din's traps. You should also try to stay in a sort of sweet spot distance from her that makes it so you are too close for them to set up Din's traps, but also too far away to get hit by Nayru's. Use spaced autocancelled nairs and ftilts a bunch because Zelda's range can't really challenge either of those moves too much. Another big thing, Zelda players seem to really like setting up Din's whenever they're recovering back to the stage. Usually, they get to do this for free because everyone is dumb and whines about "Zelda too stronk" rather than learning the match-up. However, you can just jump offstage and punch them right in the face while they try to set up their Din's like so. Lastly, be conservative with what followups you go for. Zelda's pretty floaty, so she will leave hitstun pretty quickly. You have to be careful for what followups you go for, or else you can eat a sweetspotted fair or bair from her. Learn when they like to them out, whether it be to cover their descent or to get out of a combo, and bait it out and punish appropriately.

Hope this helps with your Zelda troubles, fellow Austinite!

You can also grab her out of a successful aerial Flame Choke. And once she's at a high enough damage where you can't get many follow-ups off of d-throw, start using d-throw -> up-b. It wracks up good damage and can kill floaties at high enough percents.

High % = Aerial Flame Choke -> Grab -> D-throw -> Up-B.

 

[Spralwers]

If Zelda doesn't DI behind, you can get fairs off of dthrow as well. Refer to this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwhDOxNcIuc and start watching around 6:10. At high percentages, the Ganon does manage to get fairs off of dthrow whenever Zelda does not DI behind him. I think the key is to do full hop insta fairs. But when Zelda does go for the behind DI, up B probably would have connected.

Also, I agree that Zelda is a good MU for Ganon. I need to play KDJ's Zelda a bunch more times before I can really verify, but at mid levels, it's a very winnable match up.

 

[Electric Tuba]

Thanks, I'll try those for dealing with din's fire.

 

[Spralwers]

So against Peach, it seems like whenever she floats, nairs will either win or trade against all of her attacks as long as you're approaching her more horizontally than vertically. I was also playing against one of the best Peaches in New England and in general one of our better players, so I can verify that this tactic is viable even at higher levels. I don't know if it could actually be relied on as the go to method of beating Peach's float, but it's one tool to add into your repertoire that was not available in melee, thanks to the longer active frames which are still pretty strong. The angle of that second kick is actually pretty good in this situation with the proper spacing.

 

[Electric Tuba]

So against Peach, it seems like whenever she floats, nairs will either win or trade against all of her attacks as long as you're approaching her more horizontally than vertically. I was also playing against one of the best Peaches in New England and in general one of our better players, so I can verify that this tactic is viable even at higher levels. I don't know if it could actually be relied on as the go to method of beating Peach's float, but it's one tool to add into your repertoire that was not available in melee, thanks to the longer active frames which are still pretty strong. The angle of that second kick is actually pretty good in this situation with the proper spacing.

As long as it's auto canceled at low percents to an upwards ftilt or something, that sounds like it should work pretty well