Reconciliation of Evil, the Ganondorf match-up Discussion

[JUGGERNAUT043]

LETS HEAR SOME THOUGHTS

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Most Melee High tier MUs are largely unchanged.

Falco is still a *****, Flame Choke makes it a bit better than Melee but it's still very hard, probably our hardest MU now that...

Sheik has lost her ability to get a guaranteed CG on us! Ganons rejoice! This MU is still bad, but not as bad as Melee Sheik or Falco lol

Fox is largely the same, maybe a bit easier cuz of flamechoke

I think we beat Jigglypuff slightly now, maybe 55-45

Marth. I personally hate this MU, but it's probably close to even

Falcon is mostly the same, Flame Choke makes it easier (lol I'm starting to sound like a broken record) but it's still definitely a losing MU

Peach. idk what to think about Peach, I've always liked this MU (and Puff too, I like floaty MUs) but it definitely isn't a winning MU

I don't have much of an opinion on the new characters, though I think we beat Ivysaur pretty bad.

tl;dr - Flame Choke makes Melee High Tier MUs easier, and Sheik is no longer unwinnable

 

[Forlorn Penguin]

I think we beat Ivysaur pretty bad.

As Ganondorf, I completely destroy a friend of mine when he uses Ivysaur. The match will usually end in just a few minutes and I'll have only been KOd once, if at all. Neither he, nor myself are great at the game though, but I definitely agree with your opinion on the Ivysaur MU.

 

[JUGGERNAUT043]

iv went against my friend whos very diverse in his characters but mains luigi and some falcon while i main ganondorf and bowser, when i went against him i seen that it was very easy for him to finish me at low precentages, 1 being that ivysaur can c stick an up smash and kill ganondorf at around 60 with the best di i could crank while at the same time charging his beam cause the sweetspot is very hard to miss, secondly he has an almost guranteed setup on ganon with a down throw to solar beam when charged, which again is very easy to do, and it useually killed around 45, i wouldnt say its a complete whomping in ganons favor but ill say that ganon with his power can end ivysaur almost as easy, id call it maybe a 50 45.

 

[Zeros]

Most Melee High tier MUs are largely unchanged.

Falco is still a *****, Flame Choke makes it a bit better than Melee but it's still very hard, probably our hardest MU now that...

Sheik has lost her ability to get a guaranteed CG on us! Ganons rejoice! This MU is still bad, but not as bad as Melee Sheik or Falco lol

Fox is largely the same, maybe a bit easier cuz of flamechoke

I think we beat Jigglypuff slightly now, maybe 55-45

Marth. I personally hate this MU, but it's probably close to even

Falcon is mostly the same, Flame Choke makes it easier (lol I'm starting to sound like a broken record) but it's still definitely a losing MU

Peach. idk what to think about Peach, I've always liked this MU (and Puff too, I like floaty MUs) but it definitely isn't a winning MU

I don't have much of an opinion on the new characters, though I think we beat Ivysaur pretty bad.

tl;dr - Flame Choke makes Melee High Tier MUs easier, and Sheik is no longer unwinnable

I pretty much have the same opinions as Shiny Mewtwo, Projectile Heavy characters give me a lot of trouble when I play Ganon. Compact platform stages give me a movement speed edge to help dodge those annoying attacks, still wont work too well against the slow projectile spammers tho because the actual projectile stays in play for a long time. they force me to have to get into a very awkward position to get around them which causes some very ugly issues.

I'm pretty good against most PM Characters (so far, not everyone uses everything where I'm at) but the matchups I have a problem with at the moment are:

Wolf -- I can combo wolf but Wolf can combo Ganon much worse with an unavoidable wave combo (N-Air > Shine > N-Air > Shine > Repeat to 60~ Damage > Shine or U-Air > Over-B/Falcon's Knee somehow granted to a Space Animal?) and to make it worse, Wolf can stack those green lasers making a very awkward green wall of death that I have to get into a supremely awkward position to get around which will almost certainly result in my death against a good Wolf. And the Green Laser cannot be broken through with the Smoot Boot (Wizard Foot), any and all attempts result in a Clank wich leaves me stunned for a short moment and the wolf freely mobile which will probably result in death :/

Zelda -- OMG Zelda is super strong now. There was one Zelda player I encountered at the Xanadu Monthly Tourney (February, M2K and Dr.PP showed up) I think his name was Ryuuko? or something like that? (My Opologies, I am very bad with names) and this guy was teleporting between the ground and the platform in rapid succession, using the teleport as a sort of Luigi Wave Dash and even used it to Edge-Guard me (Teleport's Non-Shortened landing has a pretty large hit box). And worst of all, those damn Din's Fires! The guy was deliberately off shooting them to let them charge up and reshooting them onto the stage with very good aim. This created a wall of huge Din-Fires that I had to somehow work around and even tho I was able to avoid getting combo'd into those pocket-quazars, I still got beat pretty bad for the effort xD

Snake -- Overall I did not have many problems fighting Snake since I dabble with him and know how to memorize his movements... But then people started mastering Snake and now I believe snake needs a nerf lol. There are two major problems with Snake:

A) TOO MANY of his projectiles are super fast. This is *ONLY* my personal opinion however and I believe the speed that he does his moves currently is fair and pretty well balanced. I didn't find Snake to be a near impossible matchup until people started learning B...

B) THAT $%#$ing GRENADE SAVE!! The Grenades by themselves are actually ******** for how strong they are making most attempts to kill Snake off stage difficult simply because he can nearly insta-chuck them at you while hes flying out, forcing you to either move or take the explosion while he safely floats back to safety. But WORSE is the Grenade Save... The Grenade Save is where the Snake player gets into the habit of pulling a Grenade every time he jumps. This creates a problem: Snake is Near IMPOSSIBLE to kill while he has a Grenade in his hand because of the stacking hit lag system. Every time I land a Kill Shot on Snake, he is saved by the grenade exploding a split second after the attack hits. I have landed D-Airs, F-Airs, Warlock Punch (asked the guy to let it happen just to prove my point) Not even Bowser's F-Smash can get around that Save. It's not Fair that I have to kill Snake 8-14 times a match when he only has to kill me 4 lol. That Grenade either needs to be FURTHER slowed down to equal Link's Bomb Time or have some effect that makes it blow up at a time where it cant interrupt a kill shot somehow or they can just replace his Grenades with an Uzi Burst or something <.<; lol The man honestly doesn't need that much explosive power lol.

Charizard -- At the Xanadu Tourney there was a Charizard player that I was pounding until the the 2nd and 3rd matches where the guy started Fire Camping me and it got really ugly after that xD Again, Ganon's got some projectile problems.

Falco -- Obviously Falco will present some problems but I'm a Falco main and know how he works better than most so I can avoid his lasers on a compact platform stage. Its still an up-hill battle, mind you but its still very doable. Falco dies in 3 hits from Ganon lol

Edit:: Had a Cool pic to show but could not get the spoiler tags to work for some unknown reason :/ I'll repost it when I figure it out Sorry Guys

:::Edit #2:::
Figured it out! (This forum uses collaps tags instead of spoiler tags)
Ganon Fan Art! A Tribute to the lord of darkness

Spoiler

 

[leelue]

"The nikita is pretty bad. We should replace it guys."
-PMBR, long ago

"So, uh, guys, how about that nikita replacement? Guys?"
-Ganon, offstage

 

[Airrider]

Link, Tink and Snake feels like hard match-ups because of all the projectiles. Ganon is just such a large target. The links can spam a lot of projectiles and Snake has insane stage control.

 

[Shin_Mazinkaiser]

Link, Tink and Snake feels like hard match-ups because of all the projectiles. Ganon is just such a large target. The links can spam a lot of projectiles and Snake has insane stage control.

For me, I feel as though going against Link can go either way.

He'll either get his projectile game started, making it extremely difficult for Ganon to get in on him, or Ganon gets in and Link will have a hard time getting him off.

Link's rather long and fast normals can also make it tough to land hits.

As far as Toon Link goes, his normals are rather small, (although faster) giving Ganon a much easier time of pegging him with Bair and Fair.

His projectiles are really his only advantage in this matchup. (In my experience)

Now Snake. I did have trouble with this for a while. Even super simple play with Snake can be difficult for Ganon to deal with.

The only real answer I have to the Snake matchup is to try and overwhelm him before/while he sets up and get him off the stage.

Snake off the stage against Ganon is good as dead. You can also use his yellow mines against him.

 

[Shin_Mazinkaiser]

It seems as though Zelda doesn't have to do much to win against Ganon.

I have a really hard time spacing against foward air/tilt mashing. It seems to be longer/faster than Ganon's main approach tools.

Does anyone have any suggestions/tips on how to play this matchup?

 

[Lyric]

Lucas can be dealt with once you get a hit in, but before that, you are at a risk of getting bounced around easily. His dacus is really scary, and he can combo you into it. Although, this match-up isn't too hard, it's just annoying.

 

[Shin_Mazinkaiser]

I have a new worst enemy.

Diddy Kong.

I know a SUPER nutty Diddy player who is CONSTANTLY pressing buttons, and I can barely ever get an attack in.

The main problem with this is, this character allows for the person playing him to just go ham w/o any real intent or purpose.

Even when I steal momentum, d-tilt mash and other various nutty button presses let him escape any sort of pressure situation.

Anyone have anything for this MU?

I need tips not only for Diddy, but nutty players overall.

 

[| Kailex |]

I

It seems as though Zelda doesn't have to do much to win against Ganon.

I have a really hard time spacing against foward air/tilt mashing. It seems to be longer/faster than Ganon's main approach tools.

Does anyone have any suggestions/tips on how to play this matchup?

I think you just have to punish or fake out or something, because my brother plays as zelda and he spams way too much

 

[Shin_Mazinkaiser]

I
I think you just have to punish or fake out or something, because my brother plays as zelda and he spams way too much

I just hate spacing against her Magneto-ass jab/F.Tilt

 

[| Kailex |]

I don't get to play anyone other than my friends and cpu's so I don't know anything about these matchups

 

[Windstar120025]

Most Melee High tier MUs are largely unchanged.

Falco is still a *****, Flame Choke makes it a bit better than Melee but it's still very hard, probably our hardest MU now that...

Sheik has lost her ability to get a guaranteed CG on us! Ganons rejoice! This MU is still bad, but not as bad as Melee Sheik or Falco lol

Fox is largely the same, maybe a bit easier cuz of flamechoke

I think we beat Jigglypuff slightly now, maybe 55-45

Marth. I personally hate this MU, but it's probably close to even

Falcon is mostly the same, Flame Choke makes it easier (lol I'm starting to sound like a broken record) but it's still definitely a losing MU

Peach. idk what to think about Peach, I've always liked this MU (and Puff too, I like floaty MUs) but it definitely isn't a winning MU

I don't have much of an opinion on the new characters, though I think we beat Ivysaur pretty bad.

tl;dr - Flame Choke makes Melee High Tier MUs easier, and Sheik is no longer unwinnable

most of these spound like they could be true but i have to disagree, with his new change which might every one know is a huge buff MU now lean towards ganondorfs Side seeing as the UNGODLY flamechoke. however the best way to fight Ganon at the current time is of many reasons Snake who has allways had his ability to control the field with persicion and deadlyness as well as Zelda for feild control making Flamechoke and down B harder to use as well as Slowing down approach methods

 

[| Kailex |]

I hate projectiles... Love them at the same time; dammit

 

[Reshi123]

I need some help trying to deal with characters like ness with ganon cause every times i try this match up, i will usually get caught due to fair to grab which will usually send me to death.

 

[| Kailex |]

Hmm, im not used to mu's yet.. Ill try that with my friend

 

[lukifer]

I need some help trying to deal with characters like ness with ganon cause every times i try this match up, i will usually get caught due to fair to grab which will usually send me to death.

You're getting killed by Ness' back throw, I assume? Are you DI-ing it correctly? Someone more experienced can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that against an attack like this you'll want to DI in the "north-east" direction if you're being thrown left, and DI in the NW direction when being thrown to the right. If you don't DI at all then you'll probably get killed by it around 110-120% depending on the stage, but in my experience you can often live until 140-150% if you do DI correctly.

To avoid getting grabbed in the first place jab is probably your best option (assuming you've been hit by the fair already). I'm not sure if fair -> grab is a frame trap situation, but if it isn't then jab will probably be the quickest and safest way to try and break the chain. Ness has a pretty short grab range so I doubt that the jab would get outranged by a grab.

I play this matchup fairly regularly so I can write some more if you want. The guy I play against isn't very technically advanced though - he's just learning to L-cancel and can't wavedash - so I don't know how useful my matchup experience would be.

 

[Reshi123]

You're getting killed by Ness' back throw, I assume? Are you DI-ing it correctly? Someone more experienced can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that against an attack like this you'll want to DI in the "north-east" direction if you're being thrown left, and DI in the NW direction when being thrown to the right. If you don't DI at all then you'll probably get killed by it around 110-120% depending on the stage, but in my experience you can often live until 140-150% if you do DI correctly.

To avoid getting grabbed in the first place jab is probably your best option (assuming you've been hit by the fair already). I'm not sure if fair -> grab is a frame trap situation, but if it isn't then jab will probably be the quickest and safest way to try and break the chain. Ness has a pretty short grab range so I doubt that the jab would get outranged by a grab.

I play this matchup fairly regularly so I can write some more if you want. The guy I play against isn't very technically advanced though - he's just learning to L-cancel and can't wavedash - so I don't know how useful my matchup experience would be.

Thanks for the replay and i see what you are going there but the throw i was usually talking about is the dthrow and that will usually end up as a frame trap when i'm at low to mid percentage but i do see where you are going and i will try your suggest so thanks.

 

[Urielhelix]

Has any one ever had trouble with pit?

 

[| Kailex |]

I hate pit in brawl and in pm, he always just lands random moves and use arrows 24/7

 

[Urielhelix]

I don't mind him, but when your getting arrows up your ***. i mind.

 

[| Kailex |]

Play patiently, I guess; sometimes outstyle him using platforms :3

 

[Urielhelix]

Anytime i use plaforms, it puts me above him and then i get punished with his Uair or his Up-b

 

[| Kailex |]

Full hop wavelands are awesome with ganon

 

[Urielhelix]

I am also kinda nubish, but i will give it a shot

 

[| Kailex |]

If you wana do it, i suggest smashville and battlefield, because I think you can do a full hop>air dodge horizantally; which will result in a perfect waveland

 

[Urielhelix]

I see what you mean. the platforms or close enough and then when you hit the platform you slide along it so when the come up you are right on the outside to attack. nice!

 

[Viceversa96]

"The nikita is pretty bad. We should replace it guys."
-PMBR, long ago

"So, uh, guys, how about that nikita replacement? Guys?"
-Ganon, offstage

I ****ING HATE NIKITA'S

 

[shwickid222]

I ****ING HATE NIKITA'S

Haha I agree. Im a snake hater. I like ganon abd lucas match up.

 

[ViewtifulHoe242]

"The nikita is pretty bad. We should replace it guys."
-PMBR, long ago

"So, uh, guys, how about that nikita replacement? Guys?"
-Ganon, offstage

word on the street is snake got a new side b. now its a tranq gun with 3 rounds that puts grounded foes to sleep for a bit. if you wanna go up against a decent snake as ganon...

 

[foshio]

Man Ganon has a lot of bad match ups. No one has mentioned this here yet but ROB is an awful matchup. We have a guy here who has stomped all the ganons with his ROB. He can overwhelm with projectiles and quick ins to grab combos. It sounds like Pit, Diddy, Falco and Snake can get off on him in the same way. When I play as Lucas vs Ganon I feel I should win every time, even on small stages bc lucas just out maneuvers Ganon. Fox and sheik are also still pretty bad. Poor Ganon

 

[teluoborg]

That's a lot of thoughts you have there, would be great if you could like back them with arguments or examples.

 

[| Kailex |]

Shiek is much worse than fox, fox is kinda acceptable if you were playing good in spacing and stuff

 

[Burning Boom]

I have trouble with the Lucas match up. I always have, regardless of the character I'm playing, but with all the other characters I'm playing right now, I get by with a game plan (usually zoning/camping). However, Ganon's my main, and I have no understanding on how I'm supposed to play this match up. I usually just have to wait for Lucas to make a mistake and punish, but I'd like a more consistent method of getting things done in this match up. Anyone got any ideas how to deal with Lucas? Do I just suck against Lucas (Well I do, but is that the whole point), or is he a hard matchup for Ganondorf.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Anyone who can put up as much pressure as Lucas, and so quickly/safely, is going to be a bad matchup for 'Dorf.

Aside from the standard Ganon advice of "practice good spacing and punish hard," I really don't have any advice to give. I usually get by in the matchup by just punching him a bunch. Eventually he dies, but it's real frustrating, difficult, and awkward looking in getting there.

 

[teluoborg]

Can you be more specific in what gives you trouble ?
Like what do you use to get in, which Lucas moves hit you the most or annoy you the most ?

Anyway, playing the punish game is one of the best ways to play Ganon, if you're tired of waiting for Lucas to make a mistake you can bait him into doing one. Change your spacing, vary your timings, approach like you're going to use one of your favorite moves but don't, etc.
A simple example of this would be repeating SHFFL Fairs but doing some while retreating and some by advancing, while not being obvious about which ones will connect if he doesn't move.

 

[Burning Boom]

Can you be more specific in what gives you trouble ?
Like what do you use to get in, which Lucas moves hit you the most or annoy you the most ?

Anyway, playing the punish game is one of the best ways to play Ganon, if you're tired of waiting for Lucas to make a mistake you can bait him into doing one. Change your spacing, vary your timings, approach like you're going to use one of your favorite moves but don't, etc.
A simple example of this would be repeating SHFFL Fairs but doing some while retreating and some by advancing, while not being obvious about which ones will connect if he doesn't move.

I pretty much just SHHFL Fairs all day, mixing in some Nairs for the sake of variety. If he above I Uair, and I may Dair if the offstage oppritunity presents himself. The problem is that Lucas puts up a lot of pressure. He's usually Nair, sometimes he'll Fair. After his approach I end up getting combo'd for a while, and then he KOs me with an Usmash in most cases.

 

[teluoborg]

If he's the one approaching you can try running away then side B back to him to either catch him in his endlag or stuff his Nair/Fair with grab armor.

Maybe you should try to use your ground game more, Ftilt is very very good for people that stay at ground level.