Realistic Specific Changes to Yoshi for a Future Patch

[sunshine93]

Alright, I wanted to make this post to gauge what changes some of us would like to see in Yoshi to help him against the rest of the cast. Most of the consensus between top players and others is that although Yoshi has potential that has not been fully tapped yet, he still has limiting problems that prevent him from being "perfect".

So lets discuss what changes to make. Lets pretend that 1.1.6 patch is coming and that 1.1.5 was not the last patch of the game. What are specific changes to Yoshi do you want to see? And when I say specific, I want frame data changes, I want hitbox lengthened or shortened changes, I want KBG or BKB changes, I want you to think about what would make Yoshi better. But like the title says, be realistic. Don't say you want upSmash to kill at 60% or that you want Yoshi to have a chain grab.

Some examples:
1) I want uptilt to hit on the lower platform of Dreamland. I can't for the life of me understand why uptilt won't hit. The little white trail that signifies where the attack hits is up on the platform when you are below it, and yet it will never hit. So I want the hitbox on uptilt to be lengthened just a little bit so that uptilt will hit someone above me on the lower platform of Dreamland. I don't want it to cover the whole platform, just the tiny bit that the white trail says it covers.

2) I want Yoshi's grab to have less lag and less problems. Again to be specific, I want Standing Grab to go from FAF at 56 to 50, Dashing grab to go from FAF 68 to 60, and Pivot Grab FAF 65 to 55. Now this would put us in the range of about how fast Lucas' grab speed is, but I honestly think we could even go a little lower in FAF and still be reasonable and here is why. All other tether grabs in the the game have slow ending lag, but are justified because they help with recovery, extend further than the normal grab and have longer lasting hitboxes. Yoshi however has a different kind of "tether" grab. I say "tether" because although it extends further than a normal grab and has longer lasting hitboxes, it doesn't help in recovery at all. And thats the point. ZSS has a high FAF on her grabs, but the high FAF are completely balanced because she has a mix-up to her returning to the stage because of the tether, and her grab, if landed, could result in a 0 to death or a long string of combos. It is the same for the rest of the characters with tether grabs (albeit no 0 to death combos but they have follow ups on their throws, and/or have kill throws). Yoshi has NONE of those things. His dthrow doesn't even combo into upair half the time. I think having faster grabs is justified for these reasons. Now to kind of talk about the "problems" with his grab. I don't like how there is a part of his tongue that has no hitbox. In Yoshis' Hitbox Visualization, there is a gap between the 2nd and 3rd hitboxes that could potential result in a missed grab. I want that gap filled in. Also I want the duration for the hitboxes on the grabs to be a bit longer. I know they all have 10 frames, which is a long bit of time, but asking for 12 or 13 frames I think is reasonable.

3) Either dthrow or upthrow to combo into an ariel, or for fthrow to have a bit less distance when thrown. The first two are self explanatory because they would help with damage racking up or possibly a kill setup, but the fthrow having less distance in the throw I think could be interesting. There have been a handfull of times that I have fthrown and thought, "if only they were a bit closer, I could string something together". I'm not sure if it would work, but I would want to try it out, also I want bthrow and fthrow to be different in at least some way.

4) Upair to have a bigger hitbox around his body, not his tail. This one might sound a bit starnge but hear me out. So YoHeKing found an upair combo that is great and could be used to kill early, but is quite difficult to land because the body hitbox of Yoshi is a bit too small. Make that hitbox a bit larger, and I think that would be a reliable setup to use.

The reason I was wanting to do this is that Yoshi has been ignored in the patches for awhile. If there is another patch possibly coming, then I want us to be specific about what we want changed and make a stink about it, cause then maybe if we are loud enough, then someone will see and hear us and might even make a change. But if we are too broad with our statements, then I think either the wrong thing might get changed or nothing at all.

Those are some suggestions I have and want. Tell me yours and be specific.

 

[ImBlob]

Not sure if this is realistic or not, but an egg lay buff would be amazing. The 10 frames of invinicibility you get upon release are unecessary imo. Some form of consistancy in egg lay would be greatly appreciated.

Another thing is our single hit egg toss. More random inconsistancies here. Makes the pika mu annoying at times because of how often he's given the single hit. Couldn't count how many times I've landed an egg toss that would confirm into up air for game, but my egg just ends up flubbing super hard lol.

I'd trade some nerfs for buffs honestly. If they wanted to make our dair do ~25% instead of 33% I'd take it.

 

[muddykips]

i wish bair had swordlike hitboxes, instead of that weird weird bubble thing (i.e. please give us a reliable disjoint). also, that move would become WAY more useful if they took off like 3 frames FAF so that we could shorthop it without falling on our butts.

i doubt they're gonna give our grab much utility, since that's supposed to be covered by our [frame 21-24 active] command grab. mostly, i just want them to decrease endlag on it, or even better, have yoshi's tongue animation play faster at the start, so that it would reach the enemy more quickly.

then it'd come down to little treats, like allowing us to shield drop, or decreasing our jumpsquat. reducing jumpsquat from 6 to 5 or 4 doesn't look like much, but i feel like it would make a difference to a character as aerial as yoshi...

 

[Sinister Slush]

To be honest, I didn't think it was possible to disagree with all those points in the OP but it somehow happened.
Let's try to tackle all 4 points and change em a bit.

1. Instead of buffing Utilt, which is fine as is. It combos at early percents two/three times into one or so Uairs and sometimes on fast fallers or people who're slow to react, Utilt to Uair kills people at 80-110+% Utilt already hits behind it so again it's gucci.

As for tilt that needs to be touched, that should be Ftilt if there's a tilt that needs fixing. The amount of ending lag added to it from the move to Brawl and Smash 4 is atrocious. For absolutely no reason they gave it 10 more frames of endlag. If anything fix that and possibly mess with the KBG of Dtilt so we can have a way to gimp people that isn't us spamming Dsmash or running offstage using Dair hoping it'll stage spike or we get only one hit off to get an early gimp.


2. Let's take your 3 examples for tether grab

Spoiler: Lucas

For how short it is and some of the aerials/reward he gets for landing a grab this is a reasonable tether excluding offstage where he can recover.

Spoiler: ZSS

With the range, how it can still catch people even if they spotdodge and the reward she gets still even after the nerfs from grabs, I'd say these FAF being insanely high and punishing is pretty good.

Spoiler: Yoshi

Outside of his standing grab losing to Lucas's standing grab by two frames, his grabs all pretty much come out really fast and even with only two hitboxes on his tongue we never really had problems of missing grabs, what the problem was is that standing grab from OoS got us punished more often cause of him taking 13 frames to rear his head back then finally attempt to grab. Which anyone who's shielding next to you can easily drop shield (7 frames) and do their fastest option.

Only thing I half agree on is with his grabs having this much lag with no reward, there really should be some kind of change, but really it's only pivot grab that needs the huge change and maybe 2 or 3 frames on standing grab shaved off. (when it comes out)

Yoshi spamming Pivot grab (36 frames FAF) in brawl was because we had no shield and no good neutral game to deal with most characters. Smash 4 we have a shield but our neutral is still lacking a bit. 36 would be insane in this game so if they tried to fix any FAF, it wouldn't hurt to bring it from 65 to 45 at the very least.


3. Honestly, at this point I much rather have high damaging throws or F/Bthrow to kill. Not Fthrow to have less BKG/KBG or for Dthrow/Uthrow to combo into Uair.
A kill throw would be much more satisfying and feel rewarding when Yoshi gets a grab after 500 attempts in a match only to lose from jab/nair options from people or no grab armor hitting him before they're retracted in his mouth.


4. Uair is fine. No change needed, if it really did need to be changed add 1 more % to its damage or a bit more KBG scaling.
Revert nerf to Dair lag and change Bair damage and lag too instead. Bair Ftilt our grab game and Eggtoss 0/.5% are all design flaws for Yoshi that needs to be fixed over Uair.

Otherwise the hitbubble for this move has been insane the past two games. Just look at this thing

Smash 4

Brawl

 

[sunshine93]

To be honest, I didn't think it was possible to disagree with all those points in the OP but it somehow happened.
Let's try to tackle all 4 points and change em a bit.

1. Instead of buffing Utilt, which is fine as is. It combos at early percents two/three times into one or so Uairs and sometimes on fast fallers or people who're slow to react, Utilt to Uair kills people at 80-110+% Utilt already hits behind it so again it's gucci.

As for tilt that needs to be touched, that should be Ftilt if there's a tilt that needs fixing. The amount of ending lag added to it from the move to Brawl and Smash 4 is atrocious. For absolutely no reason they gave it 10 more frames of endlag. If anything fix that and possibly mess with the KBG of Dtilt so we can have a way to gimp people that isn't us spamming Dsmash or running offstage using Dair hoping it'll stage spike or we get only one hit off to get an early gimp.


2. Let's take your 3 examples for tether grab

Spoiler: Lucas

For how short it is and some of the aerials/reward he gets for landing a grab this is a reasonable tether excluding offstage where he can recover.

Spoiler: ZSS

With the range, how it can still catch people even if they spotdodge and the reward she gets still even after the nerfs from grabs, I'd say these FAF being insanely high and punishing is pretty good.

Spoiler: Yoshi

Outside of his standing grab losing to Lucas's standing grab by two frames, his grabs all pretty much come out really fast and even with only two hitboxes on his tongue we never really had problems of missing grabs, what the problem was is that standing grab from OoS got us punished more often cause of him taking 13 frames to rear his head back then finally attempt to grab. Which anyone who's shielding next to you can easily drop shield (7 frames) and do their fastest option.

Only thing I half agree on is with his grabs having this much lag with no reward, there really should be some kind of change, but really it's only pivot grab that needs the huge change and maybe 2 or 3 frames on standing grab shaved off. (when it comes out)

Yoshi spamming Pivot grab (36 frames FAF) in brawl was because we had no shield and no good neutral game to deal with most characters. Smash 4 we have a shield but our neutral is still lacking a bit. 36 would be insane in this game so if they tried to fix any FAF, it wouldn't hurt to bring it from 65 to 45 at the very least.


3. Honestly, at this point I much rather have high damaging throws or F/Bthrow to kill. Not Fthrow to have less BKG/KBG or for Dthrow/Uthrow to combo into Uair.
A kill throw would be much more satisfying and feel rewarding when Yoshi gets a grab after 500 attempts in a match only to lose from jab/nair options from people or no grab armor hitting him before they're retracted in his mouth.


4. Uair is fine. No change needed, if it really did need to be changed add 1 more % to its damage or a bit more KBG scaling.
Revert nerf to Dair lag and change Bair damage and lag too instead. Bair Ftilt our grab game and Eggtoss 0/.5% are all design flaws for Yoshi that needs to be fixed over Uair.

Otherwise the hitbubble for this move has been insane the past two games. Just look at this thing

Smash 4

Brawl

Ok so I think I need to clarify on some of the things I put down.

1) I do not want to change Utilt in anyway other than making a bit longer. And when I say a bit I mean just enough to where the hitbox actually hits where it is suppose to. If you go to Dreamland and go underneath one of the platforms and use Utilt, the little white trail reaches above the platform, signifying that it will hit, but it doesn't. This is me griping at the fact that there is a visual indicator saying that this is where the move will hit and beyond it will miss, but still misses even when the white line touches. No where did I say Utilt is bad and needs to be remodeled. I'm not asking for more damage or knockback, I know and understand that Utilt combos into itself and can be stringed together with aerials like Uair. My only complaint is that it doesn't reach where it says it reaches. If they extend it by pixels I would be happy. I'm not asking for the move to be altered in any other way. I agree with you on the changes to Ftilt and Dtilt.

2) I don't really understand what you are talking about with the grab part of your reply. Like I said in my original argument, Lucas and ZSS both have reasonable grabs because of their risk/reward system. ZSS has long active frames on the grab to help with spot dodges but is countered by high FAFs. You risk the grab, you get rewarded with combos, you get punished with just about anything. Also again, it is one more mixup for her to have to return to the stage. Lucas, although his grab isn't as much as a risk reward, give him options in the neutral game, helps with recovery, and offers him follows up and combos from his grab. Yoshi doesn't have any real upside to his grab if caught. He can't use it to recover or use in the neutral game. He has no guaranteed combo or followup from his grab. Yeah his active frames for the grab are great, but it doesn't matter how good they are if you can't do anything after the throw. I like the idea of possibly speeding up his standing grab and I'm glad we can agree on the pivot grab.

3) So I originally thought of possibly having a kill throw, but I have categorized that as not realistic, and this is why. I think they specifically gave Yoshi no kill throws as a way to balance his grab. I honestly do not see them ever giving Yoshi a kill throw. I could see them upping the damage to the throws though. So as a way to help with the fact that Yoshi, imo, will never get a kill throw, I was possibly wanting a combo from either Dthrow or Uthrow at like ~70%. I think is is fair and reasonable and would help with Yoshi's game.

4) This is the only one that I confess, I was being greedy on. I saw that both hitboxes are generous to say the least and that I should shut up and be grateful, but I thought I would at least attempt to say to make it a tiny bit larger, to make YoHeking's combo easier.