Re: Question about Brawl's future.

[Fatmanonice]

Yea reading is overrated

What you said was fantastic and I completely agree. The only people who are truly threatened by Brawl are the professional Melee players who actually made a living off of tournaments (which probably consists of no more than 5-10 people worldwide). As I said in another thread, Melee will only die out if people let it. Brawl can't kill Melee. Smash, however, may die out if people keep acting the way they do. You all know what I'm talking about. There seems to be a mentality that Brawl players are inferior to Melee players and any newcomers to Smash are instantly labeled as "party game lovers who are not real gamers." With that being said, a lot of people are being snobs about this issue and acting like Smash is an exclusive club. Seriously, the Melee board now mainly consists of topics whining about Brawl or trying to find ways to drive people away from it. What's up with that? This is one of the reasons why I PM'd Samuraipanda this message in the first place. I feel like the community is segregating itself into camps and unintentionally killing itself.

 

[hippochinfat!!]

Well why did you send in to him?

I went to his house once and all he did was talk about Pandas in Swahili. WTF.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Well why did you send in to him?

I went to his house once and all he did was talk about Pandas in Swahili. WTF.

Guh? Also, I've explained in not one but two posts why I sent the message.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Essentially, it was because almost the entire community shifted to SC3, but SC3 was full of glitches that ended up breaking the game for competitive play. And, instead of going back to SC2, they pretty much decided to just stop playing Soul Calibur altogether.

Well, it's obvious that we're not having the same problem with Brawl because there are still a decent number of people who either play both or just Melee. Also, the people who are ultimately in charge of this community are still deeply involved with Melee. Like Samuraipanda said, Brawl doesn't have any leading authority figures yet because it's still a relatively young game but they are sure to emerge in time.

 

[Monshou_no_Nazo]

I was watching some Japanese Brawl videos, and it seems like they have a better developed metagame than we do right now. The players I watched have a bigger focus on spacing and finding openings without playing incredibly sloppy like some of us do sometimes, and they were actually fun matches to watch too.

I think Brawl has a competitive future in some way. We just have to capitalize it.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I was watching some Japanese Brawl videos, and it seems like they have a better developed metagame than we do right now. The players I watched have a bigger focus on spacing and finding openings without playing incredibly sloppy like some of us do sometimes, and they were actually fun matches to watch too.

I think Brawl has a competitive future in some way. We just have to capitalize it.

Agreed. The videos on this channel are proof that Brawl has a decent amount of competitive potential.

http://www.youtube.com/user/godSSbb

The Yoshi vs Metaknight and Peach vs Ness videos are especially impressive.

 

[Vaul]

With the exception of FatManOnIce, who actually ADDRESSED my middle-ground type argument (along with Yukiwarashi, who pretty much shares my same claims, and I guess RDK, who apparently doesn't like reading very much), I'm going to assume that the bulk of you are not professional smashers and thus this whole debate doesn't really apply to you.


*tries to provoke members to reply to my post 2 pages back*

 

[Zodiac]

Agreed. The videos on this channel are proof that Brawl has a decent amount of competitive potential.

http://www.youtube.com/user/godSSbb

The Yoshi vs Metaknight and Peach vs Ness videos are especially impressive.

No, no its not proof, that yoshi and that meta knight would have had a much harder time if either of them just used the tried and true spam-a-lot of "Insert strat here" to win. While those were exciting to watch, its only because both players really didnt want to be boring and play that way.

They both chose to play it a lot more in-your-face like. which makes brawl matches decently fun. but the second someone prioritizes winning over having fun (Which happens a lot) they can just spam a strategy until they win. And if both players do this the match is boring. really boring. thats what a lot of matches are outside of japan.

 

[Fatmanonice]

No, no its not proof, that yoshi and that meta knight would have had a much harder time if either of them just used the tried and true spam-a-lot of "Insert strat here" to win. While those were exciting to watch, its only because both players really didnt want to be boring and play that way.

They both chose to play it a lot more in-your-face like. which makes brawl matches decently fun. but the second someone prioritizes winning over having fun (Which happens a lot) they can just spam a strategy until they win. And if both players do this the match is boring. really boring. thats what a lot of matches are outside of japan.

And if the other player can't counter the strategy, then it's their own fault. It was the same in Melee. If something doesn't work, you try something else. Watch this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAnc4qLHaQ4

From the beginning, it's fairly obvious what each characters strategy is from the beginning. Samus's goal is obvious to keep the Ice Climbers apart as to greatly hinder their ability to chain grab and also to make them easier to KO. The Ice Climbers goal is to rush in with chain grabs and quickly finish Samus off. Notice through out the fight how Samus uses different methods to achieve her goal while the Ice Climbers end up changing their strategies altogether.

Here's another one that I like (especially the ending to the second match):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gN1Ot0t49hU

Notice what happens to Fox in the first match. He falls for the same trick twice and it costs him two of his stock (in the exact same spot too). Now watch the second match. The Snake player uses the exact same strategy but the Ice Climbers are able to counter and even turn the tables on him on a maneuver (approaching the ledge with his fair) that messed up Fox in the first round. Again, it's very obvious that it's a mind over matter and using the same strategy over and over again does not guarentee you'll win.

Also, if matches are boring outside of Japan then its cultural problem more than anything else. The Japanese seem to be putting more thought in their fighting and able to pull of multiple strategies with the same characters.

 

[hippochinfat!!]

Guh? Also, I've explained in not one but two posts why I sent the message.

Raiden, turn the game console off right now. The mission is a failure. I NEED SCISSORS! 61!

 

[SamuraiPanda]

This. Thread. Is. Not. A. Debate. Thread.

If you truly want to continue this, then take it into AZ's thread or something.

 

[Zodiac]

And if the other player can't counter the strategy, then it's their own fault. It was the same in Melee. If something doesn't work, you try something else. Watch this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAnc4qLHaQ4

From the beginning, it's fairly obvious what each characters strategy is from the beginning. Samus's goal is obvious to keep the Ice Climbers apart as to greatly hinder their ability to chain grab and also to make them easier to KO. The Ice Climbers goal is to rush in with chain grabs and quickly finish Samus off. Notice through out the fight how Samus uses different methods to achieve her goal while the Ice Climbers end up changing their strategies altogether.

first off if you wanted to defend brawl in any capacity that was a terrible video to do so, second both of the players, just as you kindly pointed out, SPAMMED one strategy the whole time.

No its not the same in melee, not even close. opposed to that last match having nothing but one strategy being spammed the whole time with no diversity whatsoever, in melee matches you have a large amount of strategies going in one 3 minute match of melee, you had the same **** thing going the entire time in a 6 minute match of brawl. And that samus wasn't even trying to separate them until their spammed grapple beam did it once and then they started trying to do it.

Here's another one that I like (especially the ending to the second match):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gN1Ot0t49hU

Notice what happens to Fox in the first match. He falls for the same trick twice and it costs him two of his stock (in the exact same spot too). Now watch the second match. The Snake player uses the exact same strategy but the Ice Climbers are able to counter and even turn the tables on him on a maneuver (approaching the ledge with his fair) that messed up Fox in the first round. Again, it's very obvious that it's a mind over matter and using the same strategy over and over again does not guarentee you'll win.

I never said it guarantees a win. But guess what the ice climbers did, SPAMMED THE SAME STRATEGY OVER AND OVER AGAIN UNTIL THEY WON. And snake still almost beat them from spamming his strategy. these two videos you posted are only hurting the brawl 's "future", not helping it.

Watch this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ErKCoWO49k

KDJ and M2K had literally dozens of good options to use every half a second that past during that match. their strategies and mind games varied and changed to fit the situation so much during the match that its not even funny. You cant, you cant do that in brawl, you either stick with your one, maybe two good strategies you have and you spam the hell out of them, or you lose.

Well, it's obvious that we're not having the same problem with Brawl because there are still a decent number of people who either play both or just Melee. Also, the people who are ultimately in charge of this community are still deeply involved with Melee. Like Samuraipanda said, Brawl doesn't have any leading authority figures yet because it's still a relatively young game but they are sure to emerge in time.

Please dont think that we're not going to have that problem, its either going to split into two communities(Which is the direction its heading now) or its going merge into a kingdom divided and destroy itself from the inside out.

And to at least steer this thing back on topic, that is another one of the many reasons brawl's future is not secure. Another reason that it cant be used as a applicable competitive fighting game. theres not enough diversity, there just isnt!

 

[Fatmanonice]

This. Thread. Is. Not. A. Debate. Thread.

If you truly want to continue this, then take it into AZ's thread or something.

I'm sorry but I don't like to roll over in debates and that's exactly what this guy expects me to do. You can tell that people just LIKING Brawl offends him which is why this has pretty much become a debate. He's one of the people I was talking about in the Melee board who were discussing ways to drive people away from Brawl the other day. The thread he highlights in his sig provides even more evidence to what I stated. Anyways, this will be my last post especially since Vaul's was completely ignored and (like most debates) this is a complete dead-end.

first off if you wanted to defend brawl in any capacity that was a terrible video to do so, second both of the players, just as you kindly pointed out, SPAMMED one strategy the whole time.

You know, despite me saying that the Samus player used different methods to do the same thing and the Ice Climbers changed theirs when they had trouble approaching for chain grabs...

No its not the same in melee, not even close. opposed to that last match having nothing but one strategy being spammed the whole time with no diversity whatsoever, in melee matches you have a large amount of strategies going in one 3 minute match of melee, you had the same **** thing going the entire time in a 6 minute match of brawl. And that samus wasn't even trying to separate them until their spammed grapple beam did it once and then they started trying to do it.

Now you're starting to contridict yourself. When you were talking about Yoshi vs Metaknight fight in your last post, you said that the fight was essentially "fake" because it more for fun instead of for the sake of competition. You noted that the players didn't "take the easy way out" by spamming attack combinations.

I never said it guarantees a win. But guess what the ice climbers did, SPAMMED THE SAME STRATEGY OVER AND OVER AGAIN UNTIL THEY WON. And snake still almost beat them from spamming his strategy. these two videos you posted are only hurting the brawl 's "future", not helping it.

Because that's always the case, isn't it? Whatever I say/post is automatically contradictry to my point? You complained that Brawl players outside of Japan were not on par with the Japanese. That automatically establishes a ladder to climb up. The Japanese had almost a 2 month headstart so it's understandable. You also have to keep in mind that this game is still young and new strategies are being developed as we speak. Remember when people thought that the Mach Tornado couldn't be countered? Remember when people thought that Ness and Lucas could be caught in infinities by almost half the cast? Remember when people thought Dedede could chain grab every character?

Watch this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ErKCoWO49k

KDJ and M2K had literally dozens of good options to use every half a second At least I love hyperboles. that past during that match. their strategies and mind games varied and changed to fit the situation so much during the match that its not even funny. You cant, you cant do that in brawl, you either stick with your one, maybe two good strategies you have and you spam the hell out of them, or you lose.

Despite the Shiek Player losing two of his four stock from the exact same method in the exact same spot: a Fsmash to the face upon coming back on the stage from the edge. I also noticed that all four of the stock that the Shiek player lost were on the right side of the screen. This shows a strategy that went on through the entire match: keep the opponent on the right side of the stage. With that being said, the strategies weren't changing every split second (or half split second as you insist). Yes, you respond to your situation but don't you do that in EVERY fighting game? Why is Brawl different? It has less options because of the removal of some ATs but you talk as if every match is like a Wolf player spamming the blaster when they're far away and Fsmash when they are up close. Camping can be countered. Spammed attacks can be countered. Excessive dodging can be countered.

Also, I find it hypocritical that you're showing me a video where Melee had 6 1/2 years of development and keep going on and on about how the community should just drop Brawl after only about 3 months. Remember how people insisted that Ike and Metaknight were God tier during the Nintendo Fall conference? People found ways to counter them (especially Ike) and the Japanese even now have Ike in the low tier.

Please dont think that we're not going to have that problem, its either going to split into two communities(Which is the direction its heading now) or its going merge into a kingdom divided and destroy itself from the inside out.

Why would it destroy itself from the inside out if people were "allowed" to play the games they want to play and not hound newcomers (which is basically what's been going on the past couple of weeks). Brawl and Melee players can co-exist. (Oh God, what a concept!) Why should people who love the same franchise ultimately be segregated? I still enjoy playing Melee from time to time and I seriously doubt I'm the only Brawl player who's like this.

And to at least steer this thing back on topic, that is another one of the many reasons brawl's future is not secure. Another reason that it cant be used as a applicable competitive fighting game. theres not enough diversity, there just isnt!

How can their be less diversity when Brawl has more variety in movesets, more stages that are tournament "legal", more match ups, etc? For example, you definately can't fight the same way as Ike on Final Destination and Skyworld or Olimar on Battlefield and Frigate Orpheon. Like I said before, don't kill Brawl's future before it even starts. Even heard of a self fulfilling prophecy? If not, you probably should...

 

[Vaul]

This. Thread. Is. Not. A. Debate. Thread.

Well, to be fair, what did you expect? I know you had good intentions when you started a thread that sought to reassure new players that playing Brawl competitively is going to be worth it in the long run, but of course there are a plethora of people who adamantly disagree with you. Would it be fair for anyone to start a thread with their opinion and then deny those who believe otherwise? Maybe you were expecting something along the lines of just 2008 join date members seeking to congratulate and thank you for keeping their dreams alive, but lets face it. The original post can be interpreted by many to be presenting an argument, and inevitably comparissons with Melee and Brawl were bound to pop up in response. I understand your intentions, but for the anti-Brawl crowd, the way you worded your post was equivilant to flashing a red cloth in plain sight to a Spanish bull (not to mention AZ's thread, of course, is older, and people prefer new fresh threads where people are more likely to actually look over their posts and arguments). If you don't like where this thread is going, I recommend you close it as soon as possible.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Well, to be fair, what did you expect? I know you had good intentions when you started a thread that sought to reassure new players that playing Brawl competitively is going to be worth it in the long run, but of course there are a plethora of people who adamantly disagree with you. Would it be fair for anyone to start a thread with their opinion and then deny those who believe otherwise? Maybe you were expecting something along the lines of just 2008 join date members seeking to congratulate and thank you for keeping their dreams alive, but lets face it. The original post can be interpreted by many to be presenting an argument, and inevitably comparissons with Melee and Brawl were bound to pop up in response. I understand your intentions, but for the anti-Brawl crowd, the way you worded your post was equivilant to flashing a red cloth in plain sight to a Spanish bull (not to mention AZ's thread, of course, is older, and people prefer new fresh threads where people are more likely to actually look over their posts and arguments). If you don't like where this thread is going, I recommend you close it as soon as possible.

Frankly, I knew this is what would happen. Notice how I haven't issued any infractions or warnings. I'm merely asking that they not divert this thread too much from its original purpose. As I expected it to happen, I let it go in small bursts, but its now becoming the sole purpose for this thread, which is something I don't like too much. But still, I know if I were to be a new member in such a negative community, a post like this would truly and honestly help me keep things in perspective. The fact this may relieve a few people out there makes this thread worth leaving open for now.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Well, I'm done with this thread simply because it is clearly becoming a Melee vs Brawl debate. I enjoy playing Brawl and my game has improved so much in the past two months thanks to being able to fight people online. I don't care if Melee takes more technical skill, I enjoy playing it competitively and learning new ways to beat my opponent. Why am I "wrong" for doing this? Heck, why are any Brawl players "wrong" for this? Why can't new Brawl players be given the chance to play competitively without a ton of criticism like Melee players were? That's my beef. I clocked in almost 2000 hours with Melee but now I actually have a chance to play competitively thanks to 1) online and 2) the fact that the dorms of the college I'm going to in the fall hosts monthly Brawl tournaments. Ugh... whatever. I think Melee and Brawl players can co-exist without having to try to one-up each other all the time but... well... you can see for yourself how the boards have been lately.

 

[Zodiac]

I'm sorry but I don't like to roll over in debates and that's exactly what this guy expects me to do. You can tell that people just LIKING Brawl offends him which is why this has pretty much become a debate. He's one of the people I was talking about in the Melee board who were discussing ways to drive people away from Brawl the other day. The thread he highlights in his sig provides even more evidence to what I stated. Anyways, this will be my last post especially since Vaul's was completely ignored and (like most debates) this is a complete dead-end.

Wow, just ****ing wow, I cant believe you think that, Im not going to debate with you anymore. this is ridiculous, I LIKE BRAWL, I PLAY BRAWL. Where did you ever get the idea that I hated people playing brawl? And NO ONE in the melee boards has been discussing ways to drive away brawlers, NO ONE. I dont even like having a divided smash community! Hell if we could just coexist that'd be nice, but then there's people such as yourself who somehow got the idea that everyone in the melee boards ****ing hates everyone that plays brawl and wants to destroy the scene, God.

Please understand, we don't hate brawl, we don't hate you, and we want nothing more than for the smash community to thrive. But for that to happen, we have to make sure another Soul Calibur incident doesn't occur. Carefully go into brawl.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Wow, just ****ing wow, I cant believe you think that, Im not going to debate with you anymore. this is ridiculous, I LIKE BRAWL, I PLAY BRAWL. Where did you ever get the idea that I hated people playing brawl? And NO ONE in the melee boards has been discussing ways to drive away brawlers, NO ONE. I dont even like having a divided smash community! Hell if we could just coexist that'd be nice, but then there's people such as yourself who somehow got the idea that everyone in the melee boards ****ing hates everyone that plays brawl and wants to destroy the scene, God.

Please understand, we don't hate brawl, we don't hate you, and we want nothing more than for the smash community to thrive. But for that to happen, we have to make sure another Soul Calibur incident doesn't occur. Carefully go into brawl.

There are a lot of people who are constantly harping that Brawl is hardly competitively viable, that Brawl takes close to no skill to play (I absolutely LOVE the stories about the regular tournament go-ers who somehow lose to random people who spam attacks with Wolf/Ike/Snake/Pit/Olimar/etc), overexaggerate the inconveinence of tripping (even though it allows you to roll away or attack with invinsibility frames and mostly happens when constantly change directions/ stop and go like with fox trotting, pivoting, and dash dancing and your opponent has to immediately react to do anything against it), act like Brawl is a threat to Melee's existance (which it only would be if everyone left it for Brawl which is clearly not the case), whine about 07/08 members even if they are posting intelligently, talk as if people chose to play Brawl competitively are somehow less of gamers for doing so, etc, etc, etc...

Also, what's this all about?

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=171057

Washing off the Brawl stench? Are you serious?

"Or to put it in plain (whatever language you speak) , what do you do after playing brawl to get back into a melee groove less your melee playstyle be corrupted by brawl's slow un-technical nature."

You talk as if Brawl is a disease. Oh but it doesn't stop there...

"Selling brawl is MTTB
reading is MTTB
me gagging at brawl is MTTTB
Me arguing with my crew about how everything on this planet is MTTB is MTTB
putting three T's instead of two in MTTB is more MTTTB.
TRIPPING is MTTB
Talking to a Girl is MTTB..A Lot lot, hell of a fricken lot more technical than brawl.
Saying the word brawl doesn't deserve a capital b is more technical than brawl.
having job orientation pushed back form 9:00 am to 1:00 pm is MTTB.
My Stero remote is MTTB
Ringtoss at the carnival is MTTB.
Ok, I hate brawl. so very much. its a terrible sucky disgrace of a game....
My brawl complaints are MTTB"

Look familar? The whole thread in your sig is filled with comments like this. Yeah, because it's obvious that you want the community to be united and don't think less of people who play Brawl...Oh and before I forget:

You created this. Your name is in the address and everything. Besides Manalord, you are probably one of the front runners for all the Brawl hate. I don't care if you hate Brawl but there are too many people like who you are just plain obnoxious about it. Do you realize that you're dragging down Melee by doing this? Why can't you be like Gimpyfish who seems to have gone back to Melee and just lets the people who want to enjoy Brawl be instead of adapting a "I'm better than you because I prefer one video game over another" additude like you have.

I also absolutely love this thread you recently created:

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=172062

It's astounding that within minutes you are automatically "the victim" and act like Brawlers (as you call them) have been going into the Melee boards and antagonizing Melee. It's quite the opposite my friend.

As I have said time and time again, Brawl can't kill Melee. You need to understand this. Carefully go into Brawl? What's there to be careful of? As I have said, Melee has hardly been completely abandoned so it is not like the case of Soul Calibur III. Also, was Soul Calibur's community even on par with the size of the Smash Community? I didn't even know their was a Soul Calibur competitive community until last week despite me constantly being on gaming sites like this. Still, the community is not completely lost because of Brawl; it will only be lost if the additudes I have spoken in this post continue.

 

[FalconPunch]

Those threads in the Melee discussion have nothing to do with Brawlers at all. You're making it seems like he's going up to Brawl***s and bashing them for nothing when he's just discussing it with people like himself.

 

[Mr_X]

Well, he's inadvertently doing just that. Although there may be no direct attacks, the implied conotations are still there.

 

[Zankoku]

There is absolutely no way to argue that Brawl is more technical or even as technical as Melee. You know... because every single one of those examples you listed up there are talking about how Melee is more technical, Fatmanonice.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

I think he was just pointing out that Zodiac was blatantly lying when he said he likes Brawl. And he makes an interesting point when he says that no pro-Brawlers go to the Melee boards and preach how much they hate Melee, but the reverse happens all too often. *shrug* All I know is that we're one community, and that some of our community members are more negative than others.

By the way, this whole "avoiding Soul Calibur" thing is just funny to me. Do people even know why SC3 was so bad? Not because it wasn't competitive or something, but because they broke the game. A few outstanding glitches completely broke competitive play, making the game just plain silly. Its completely different from Brawl.

 

[Zankoku]

I already said that two days ago, actually.
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=4550538#post4550538

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Rofl, nice. I must've missed it. Or maybe I didn't O_o.

But yeah, SC3 is just not applicable to the current situation of Melee vs Brawl.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Those threads in the Melee discussion have nothing to do with Brawlers at all. You're making it seems like he's going up to Brawl***s and bashing them for nothing when he's just discussing it with people like himself.

Brawl F...A...G...s? Oh, real nice... Your location is golden too... Thanks for providing even more evidence for what I'm talking about. Anyways, it is more than clear that he was lying when he said 1. he didn't hate Brawl and 2. he didn't have anything against people who play Brawl.

There is absolutely no way to argue that Brawl is more technical or even as technical as Melee. You know... because every single one of those examples you listed up there are talking about how Melee is more technical, Fatmanonice.

We all know that Brawl is less technical than Melee. So what? How in God's name is it at all productive to make a thread like that and beat a dead horse? Not to mention how the entire thread is one giant suggestion that Brawl takes absolutely no skill to play. Did I mention that Zodiac had among the most posts in that thread? Yeah, it's quite obvious that he isn't bitter at all...

 

[RDK]

I think he was just pointing out that Zodiac was blatantly lying when he said he likes Brawl. And he makes an interesting point when he says that no pro-Brawlers go to the Melee boards and preach how much they hate Melee, but the reverse happens all too often. *shrug* All I know is that we're one community, and that some of our community members are more negative than others.

By the way, this whole "avoiding Soul Calibur" thing is just funny to me. Do people even know why SC3 was so bad? Not because it wasn't competitive or something, but because they broke the game. A few outstanding glitches completely broke competitive play, making the game just plain silly. Its completely different from Brawl.

While SC3's level of brokenness is definetely worse than anything in Brawl, you still don't find Snake to be a disgustingly good character? You don't find his neverending arsenal of spam and mile-long hitboxes to be somewhat ridiculous?

You don't find the campfest that is the Overswarm vs. Jiano video to be silly? If that's not silly, I don't know what is.

And about the Japan metagame being more "advanced"--it's exactly the opposite. The only reason their matches are more exciting is because they're scrubbing themselves. They refuse to spam the same, tired old moves and strategies instead of playing to win like overswarm.

At a certain level in Brawl, it comes down to who can be the gayest camper.

 

[Zankoku]

While SC3's level of brokenness is definetely worse than anything in Brawl, you still don't find Snake to be a disgustingly good character? You don't find his neverending arsenal of spam and mile-long hitboxes to be somewhat ridiculous?

Then why doesn't he win every tournament? :V I mean, he's got the makings of top tier, but not of "needs to be banned" tier.

You don't find the campfest that is the Overswarm vs. Jiano video to be silly? If that's not silly, I don't know what is.

I think what's silly is that people are still pointing at a set that's at least two months old and using two people who didn't even place first at said tournament as an example. It's almost like me using this game in SSBM as an example of high level play.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=eY5MMhZt1XY

At a certain level in Brawl, it comes down to who can be the gayest camper.

Which is about a full step down from the top level, apparently.

 

[RDK]

Then why doesn't he win every tournament? :V I mean, he's got the makings of top tier, but not of "needs to be banned" tier.

Well he doesn't win EVERY single tournament, but if there aren't any Snakes at all in the top 5, then there's something wrong.

I think what's silly is that people are still pointing at a set that's at least two months old and using two people who didn't even place first at said tournament as an example. It's almost like me using this game in SSBM as an example of high level play.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=eY5MMhZt1XY

Very true. And wow, that match was gay, lol.

Which is about a full step down from the top level, apparently.

Again, despite the collective opinion of the majority of high-end players, I think maybe we should give the game some time. I just don't like how it's turning out so far.

 

[Hydde]

They refuse to spam the same, tired old moves and strategies instead of playing to win like overswarm.

At a certain level in Brawl, it comes down to who can be the gayest camper.

Thats exactly why tthe game sometimes seem to be attack minded. But in the end when there is money at stake., and the fear of losing kicks in, there will be always one player who will be gay and will try to win no matter what. In melee u saw this a lot, but there were a lot of ways to be punished by being overly defensive and campy. Now thats not the case =(

I like brawl , but sincerely i play it just because no one wants to go back to melee here (just because brawl is new). I play it just because everyone plays it now.... but i miss melee so much.


I regret everyday about why things had to go the way they went with brawl....... Why we had to change something overly exciting and entertaining... to something ok?.

I understand sakurai's decition with the game.... but it deeply wounded our expectations and who knows..... maybe the years to come will not be as exciting as they could.

why our community had to end like this?.


Is sad sincerely.

 

[Banjodorf]

I disagree w/ this post. I feel that new players should be warned about brawls inferiority so they don't waste their time with it. We need to stop deluding ourselves just because "Smash" is in the title. For a good online experience with rankings, no lag and tournies, give mariokartwii a try.

Anyway, great read SP, and you made some great points.

And @Yuna, SC 3 was very much inferior to SC 2. Brawl is not the same way to Melee, whether you feel so or not (If it's not better, it's not worse)

So I dont see anything of the like happening to the Smash community.

 

[Mr_X]

I think maybe we should give the game some time.

I think this is what many "Pro" (as in supportive) Brawl players have been saying for a while now.

why our community had to end like this?.

What?

 

[RDK]

I think this is what many "Pro" (as in supportive) Brawl players have been saying for a while now.

When I say "time", that doesn't mean 6 more years. Just enough time to confirm either that Brawl isn't worth it, or that there's SOME redeeming quality. However, it's kind of moot, as everyone will most likely stick with Brawl no matter what happens.

 

[Zodiac]

*Stuff that should be deleted when quoting because it serves no purpose to requote the entire post other than to annoy everyone else in the thread*

For some reason I knew you would bring up all those threads, and for some reason, I also knew you couldnt take a joke. Do you really think that anyone that posted in the MTTB thread is actually serious? "Washing off the brawl stench" Again a joke, Smashboards is,(Or was) filled with those all the time.

"Or to put it in plain (whatever language you speak) , what do you do after playing brawl to get back into a melee groove less your melee playstyle be corrupted by brawl's slow un-technical nature."

Does that sound like its a completley serious post to you? This thread is where I try not to make any jokes because they usually get taken as serious words. I dont just debate crap over here all the time, Why would I come to these boards (As a whole) and just debate at people?

I never said that the brawlers (And whats wrong with saying brawlers?) were coming into our forums and antagonizing us, never. And I never said we're the victims, there is (As you have so wonderfully demonstrated) a huge amount of hostility between the two boards. I have never personally whined about someone who is an 07/08 member, yea theres a better chance their scrubs but that doesn't make me think that they are.

In that thread you mentioned I was seriously expressing a concern to the melee boards of what could possibly happen.

http://static3.filefront.com/images/personal/z/zodiacsmash/138505/qfbkgmtsvg.jpg

Your taking THAT seriously? Anytime I think of something funny to post in the MTTB forums (See my sig) Im going to post it, because its funny, there have been numerous threads making fun of melee, and no one(At least in my life on the boards) has ever gotten THIS disgruntled over one of those threads.

 

[Vaul]

I'm reposting here again, mainly because my former arguments were amidst a flood of posts and were quickly looked over. Or perhaps its because I'm a 2008 join date and therefore am (usually rightfully) stereotyped for being nubbish and with little to contribute. Hell, I purposely posted specific, provacative attacks on certain people simply for the sake of intelligent people responding to a 2008 join date; I feel I have to be more vocal about it in order to get noticed. Your going to read this because it's a resonable argument which accounts for both parties and meets a middle from a perspective you've most likely haven't heard before. And it's an enjoyable, highly controversial read at that. If you're the TL;DR type, then by all means continue on to posts regarding the petty arguments of who said what that just go back and forth with no progress whatsoever. I understand you don't like reading. That said, just relax, sit back, grab a beverage of your choosing, turn on some light jazz or some Big L to set the mood, and enjoy a good read.


Question: How many of you actually made an income playing Melee?

I'm not talking about the inconsistent upper placement that was able to pay for gas and a sandwich. I'm not even talking about the 1st place finishes that helped pay for any tournament-traveling hotel expenses you've had during the past 5 years, the big wins which payed for your summer vacation plans, etc. That's all just ****s and giggles. That's enjoying Smash as a past time, as a hobby, or god forbid, as a means of developing a rep that you probably couldn't get any other way. I want to know who are the real Smashers, the supposed pros, who's actual future hangs in the balance. Don't interpret that to mean I have sympathy for them; I don't, they're really ****ing good. I am simply searching for the select few who can actually be described as being "professional" Smashers. Now before you either blindly answer this question, or tell your few 'pro' acquaintances to post here to make it appear that this argument actually matters, think for a good 5 to 10 seconds, take a deep breath, and reply with your argument if you truly care. In short, when you money match someone, is the money itself the primary initiative to win, or does it serve mainly as a veil to compete, an added boost, used as a certificate of legitimacy while your main intentions are to experience tremendous pleasure when you beat an opponent at their best? That stated, let us now look at the two possible answers:

If you answered NO: Hopefully this is the majority of you, whether you choose to respond or not. This ranges from being the party game enthusiast to the experienced, articulate Smash Boards member who is highly esteemed for their arguments and contributions....but still don't place well at major tournaments (with 'well' being defined as actually making good money). I use money as a means of OFFICIAL competitive legitimacy for a few reasons, most notably because a player can win every single tournament they happen to attend, but it only means so much when the tournaments they went to were small and their per tournament earnings were never over $100 (that's just a guesstimate, definitely not the defining threshold). If you fall anywhere within these stated extremes, please ask yourself the following question:

Why am I so concerned with the Brawl v. Melee debate?

I'm sure the most common retort I'll hear would be somewhere along the lines of "Because I have played smash for years and its competitive nature has been a major hobby/part of my life. Just because I don't make a lot of money doing it doesn't mean it isn't important to me." Or, perhaps it could be "As a 2008 join date member, you (Vaul) cannot possibly understand what this community is all about. We've spent YEARS turning the Smash metagame into what its become today and have developed a common bond amongst one another that even transcends the actual game of Smash itself. Just because it doesn't mean much to you, it doesn't automatically determine that it doesn't mean much to us."

These are really, really sweet and heartfelt. Srysly. I can't argue with that. But, I can address them.

If the first probable retort is most like yours: Do what you want. I know this argument has been reiterated countless times by those partaking in Brawlphilia, but really, please think about it. To briefly state the obvious (I swear my arguments will become more original), no one is stopping you from playing S64, Melee, or Brawl. You and your flock of birds of feather can fly together (zing). If your claims don't go beyond your personal and subjective views on the superiority of Melee or the promise of Brawl, then what's your point? By *****ing and whining at each other, what are you trying to accomplish? Do you feel that your being attacked and must defend yourself? Are you trying to be as vocal as possible so Nintendo just might possibly hear you? Are you trying to convince the community to not fall into the fad and stick with Melee/to adjust smoothly into Brawl and embrace it since Brawl is the future and Melee is dead? More specifically, by saying Brawl is inferior....what the **** are you trying to prove aside from whats been stated above? If you're trying to pursue one of the said goals....good luck buddy. If your doing it just because you feel the need to vent and whine about your "complete disappointment with looking forward to Brawl for, like, YEARSS", then I am truly, truly sorry for your loss. Unfortunately, there's nothing we here at the Community can do regarding Brawl's gameplay. That, and we really don't give a **** about your personal complaints and immaturity regarding a video game. The same applies to your opinion of me. If you don't give a ****, don't respond.

If the second retort is more probable in your case (sorry this is going a bit slow, by the way), then yea, I can sympathize. But I can't empathize with those who are seriously worried about the division of the Smash community and who believe that a community which plays two different games can't possibly work/would be the near equivalent of Smash Armageddon. I know people often forget this sometimes, so I'm going to do a favor to all of those with their panties up in a bunch and tell them this: No matter how much you've let Smash consume your life and no matter how much perspective you may have loss......Smash is a video game. Let me say that again. Smash is a ****ing video game. This isn't a decision between whether to continue to use petroleum or invest in renewable energy, to allow women to vote or not, to legalize more drugs or enforce laws further. This is Melee vs. Brawl. A video game vs a video game, or more like which video game we should choose to play with eachother. You thrust your arguments and spew your data and facts for why one is superior to the other, but how many of you actually vote? And for the inevitable responses of 'these big picture arguments have no place in a video game forum", then perhaps, but that still won't change the fact of how unbelievably ignorant you are.
But staying to the topic, would two separate communities really dismay you that greatly? This isn't your father fighting against you in a civil war, this is a friend who likes one video game designed for parties more than the other video game designed for parties. If this **** keeps on going any longer, then perhaps that will be the best course to pursue, because as Samurai Panda said, this argument is deterring new players from the Smash scene in general. If you don't care about a large group base, all the more power to you. If you do care that your community supporting a better video game is dying for no real logical reason, then, not to come off as condescending or anything, but boo****inghoo. This eventually happens to all video game communities; *****ing and whining can't stop it. I'm not saying you should stop playing Melee, by no means absolutely no. You can still enjoy its gameplay forever and always. But if you're trying to resist the tide that is change and bring others to your cause...your pretty ****ed. Plus in no way will Melee disappear from the community scene for years to come. Compared to my involvement with the Populous: The Beginning community (never even heard of it have you?), you guys are pretty well off.

To sum up those who answered No, many of the more vocal and polarized debaters are being excessively melodramatic. Don't barrage me with your petty tears and how much Smash means to you. You are most likely only part of the competitive scene because you want to prove/test yourself at how good you are doing what you like best. Did Overswarm win anything from that first huge Wi-Fi tournament which was actually useful and tangible? He quotes himself saying how bad he felt losing in Melee and won't be 'that person' in Brawl. Okay. Great. Insecurities aside, are you playing Smash for a reason other than you enjoy Smash and want a good rep? If you aren't, then I have no problem with that and you are certainly succeeding with that stated policy. But if it doesn't extend anything beyond the sensation one derives from 'competition' itself, then what does this whole argument matter for? (I'm only using Overswarm as an example because of the quote; I have nothing against him and do not mean this to sound hurtful in any way).

This same question applies to the other side of the debate: If your livelihood and general well being doesn't rely on whether Brawl or Melee is used, why are you arguing with a one-track mind for Melee over Brawl? If it's because you find Melee more rewarding and it makes you all happy and tingily inside, no one is taking that away from you. It may SEEM that your once happy go lucky lifestyle is now under siege by Brawl and the Noob Army, but please, be realistic. Ignore how defensive Brawl is. Dismiss its legitimacy as a fighting game because "there aren't any REAL combos, they can easily be airdodged and DI'ed out of. There's no skill and I'm Yuna so its true" ('Seriously, how many competitive Smash players can there really be in ****ing STOCKHOLM?? I guess there's enough to allow your self-esteem to ride on it' - Vaul 2008). If you're truly rational, you should not give that much of a **** about Brawl and stick to your guns. For you, Melee is here to stay and always will be. And as I stated earlier, I wouldn't worry about losing a Melee fanbase anytime soon. Populous the Beginning. Enough said.


If you answered YES: All personal preferences and opinions aside, your stances on the issue are the only ones which truly matter in determining whether Melee or Brawl is OFFICIALLY used for competitive play in large tournaments. This is your skill we're talking about, you're money, and you're life. You alone can decide what professionals will do. Anyone else who argues that even though their not pro but still find good competition to be very important to them, then let them do whatever the hell they want. They're concerns about losing players for tournament play are understandable, but really, they are merely complaining about giving up something they're worked so hard to attain. Perhaps they have not truly experienced disappointment in their actual lives. Yet no matter, for they are just playing for fun and making a name for themselves; this is truly what it all boils down to.

Now don't get me wrong, I ****in love video games. I probably enjoy Smash just as much as you do. I too find great pleasure in beating a good Pikachu to a bloody, yellow pulp using DK's merciless fists. Competition is fun AND its good for keeping the game going for an extended period of time. That said, do what you want to do. But don't preach to others and flame them if they don't happen to share your views. It's not constructive, it's whining. For those who answered yes, just remember that Brawl currently has the larger and fastest growing fanbase, hence this game will be where the money ends up despite the lack of technical skill and intensity. Im not qualified to claim which is better for official competitive play (this is a competitive web site afterall, those seeking competition should just pursue where the competition actually is). Since you are most likely the ones who have defined competitive Smash as we know it, developing the game on an individual scale in the endless pursuit to overwhelm the competition for the greatness that is victory, truly you are the best (if only) qualified personnel to make an official decision. Everyone else can do what they want and STILL find the initiative, namely money and competition, to encourage them to continue playing their video game.



10char

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Maybe you should try posting that in Scar's thread? 'Cause that thread is actually intended to be a debate thread.

 

[Vaul]

fair enough, i just enjoy the small thread 'intimacy'

 

[Fatmanonice]

For some reason I knew you would bring up all those threads, and for some reason, I also knew you couldnt take a joke. Do you really think that anyone that posted in the MTTB thread is actually serious?

It is pretty obvious that most of them are dead serious seeing how these same people end up in threads like this with the same message: "Brawl has no competitive future, it's a game for scrubs (God, I hate that word...)." It also doesn't help that you still advocate the thread despite it being dead for some time and how you had the second most posts in that thread. If you were merely joking, you would have probably stopped with the first list but I believe you ended up making 3 or 4... The Mario vs ROB thread in the Mario board is a good example of a "joke thread", this is not. Jokes eventually get old but, for some reason, this "joke" is constantly being revived again and again by the same people.

"Washing off the brawl stench" Again a joke, Smashboards is,(Or was) filled with those all the time.

And still are except they actually have tell-tale signs that the person is joking like in the case of the "Mario vs ROB" or "Is Luigi gay" threads in their respective boards and kept to those threads instead of being spread to others.

"Or to put it in plain (whatever language you speak) , what do you do after playing brawl to get back into a melee groove less your melee playstyle be corrupted by brawl's slow un-technical nature."

Does that sound like its a completley serious post to you?

Again, your posting history shows that you are.

This thread is where I try not to make any jokes because they usually get taken as serious words. I dont just debate crap over here all the time, Why would I come to these boards (As a whole) and just debate at people?

I never said that the brawlers (And whats wrong with saying brawlers?) were coming into our forums and antagonizing us, never. And I never said we're the victims, there is (As you have so wonderfully demonstrated) a huge amount of hostility between the two boards.

Truth be told, there really isn't because the argueing is always among the same people and it just clogs up the other threads in the General/Tactical Brawl boards. If you look at the forum directory, a majority of the people in the Brawl boards are in the character discussion threads where topics like this aren't even a second thought. Also, how have I demostrated that there is hostility between the two boards? Have I pooled all Melee players into one group? Have I bashed Melee into the ground? (I have even said that I love the game on several occasins.) Have I used demeaning words like "Breep" (Brawl+sheep, get it? Har Har!) and "scrub" to describe Melee players? Have I made comments like "Melee is boring" and "Melee isn't fun" as if they were undisputible fact? Have I made comments like people choosing Melee over Brawl will kill the Smash Community? If you can't see where I'm going with this then you truely are ignoring the problem at hand. If you haven't noticed, I don't have a problem with people who hate Brawl, I have a problem with people that are obnoxious about it and are creating a negative atmosphere where both new players and those switching over from Melee to Brawl are highly discouraged like I was when I sent Samuraipanda the PM.


I have never personally whined about someone who is an 07/08 member, yea theres a better chance their scrubs but that doesn't make me think that they are.

I wasn't addressing just you, I was addressing other people as well. For example, in a thread last week discussing whether or not the Ice Climber's chaingrabs should be allowed in tournaments, the thread creator (a Texan tournament director who wanted to limit them to three grabs per chain grab) refused to listen to posts by anyone with a join date of 07/08 even if they agreed with him and he'd usually respond with "LOL, silly 07/08 scrubs."

In that thread you mentioned I was seriously expressing a concern to the melee boards of what could possibly happen.

http://static3.filefront.com/images/personal/z/zodiacsmash/138505/qfbkgmtsvg.jpg

Your taking THAT seriously? Anytime I think of something funny to post in the MTTB forums (See my sig) Im going to post it, because its funny, there have been numerous threads making fun of melee, and no one(At least in my life on the boards) has ever gotten THIS disgruntled over one of those threads.[/QUOTE]

I have been on these boards on almost a daily basis since I joined and I haven't seen genuinely anti-Melee threads since probably before Nintendo's Fall Conference. Either way, these threads probably quickly fell off the radar because people didn't insist of keeping them up.

Now that I have thought about this for awhile, I've come to realise that this whole situation is extremelly similar to the Melee vs Brawl debates that went on in Nsider before Sakurai started doing the Dojo updates in 2007. They were mainly spurred because some of the people who still played Melee competitively were upset at all the attention that Brawl was getting despite it's then non-existant playability. It was literally not a threat to Melee's existance but it was treated like it was. I think this problem still exists even though Brawl is now out. Brawl currently has more tournaments than Melee, huh? Well, what's the simple solution to this? Promote the crap out of already existing Melee tournaments, create your own, and strive for tournaments to host Melee. Discouraging people away from Brawl is not the solution because 1. it immediately isolates new players who want to get into competitive smash via Brawl and 2. it gives the Melee community a very snobbish appearance which isn't productive for anything. There's already a lot of tension between competitive and casual players so it's obvious why there shouldn't be tension between competitive players who are into the same franchise.

 

[Zodiac]

I have been on these boards on almost a daily basis since I joined and I haven't seen genuinely anti-Melee threads since probably before Nintendo's Fall Conference. Either way, these threads probably quickly fell off the radar because people didn't insist of keeping them up.

Now that I have thought about this for awhile, I've come to realise that this whole situation is extremelly similar to the Melee vs Brawl debates that went on in Nsider before Sakurai started doing the Dojo updates in 2007. They were mainly spurred because some of the people who still played Melee competitively were upset at all the attention that Brawl was getting despite it's then non-existant playability. It was literally not a threat to Melee's existance but it was treated like it was. I think this problem still exists even though Brawl is now out. Brawl currently has more tournaments than Melee, huh? Well, what's the simple solution to this? Promote the crap out of already existing Melee tournaments, create your own, and strive for tournaments to host Melee. Discouraging people away from Brawl is not the solution because 1. it immediately isolates new players who want to get into competitive smash via Brawl and 2. it gives the Melee community a very snobbish appearance which isn't productive for anything. There's already a lot of tension between competitive and casual players so it's obvious why there shouldn't be tension between competitive players who are into the same franchise.

Alright, You obviously have some sort of vendetta with me, if you wish to continue this pm me.

Edit: I should clarify about the threads making fun of melee, those all came along before brawl's time. I haven't seen as of late either.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Alright, You obviously have some sort of vendetta with me, if you wish to continue this pm me.

*groan*

I'm pointing out the inconsistencies of what you say in this thread and what you have said outside of it. You are coming off as incredibly hypocritical and I'm calling you out on it. While I'm doing this, I'm presenting the common traits of the people I define as "obnoxious" about their hate for Brawl. (As presented in the previous posts, there's way too much evidence showing that you do hate it and are very vocal about it so don't deny it.) That's what you don't understand; it's your additude I dislike along with those who have basically declared Brawl dead on delivery and try to convince everyone how that's how it is so there's really no point in continuing to play it competitively.

The rest of my post speaks for itself and I bring up the points again in the "Brawlers hate us" thread. (Hopefully someone has actually responded to my posts by now...)

 

[KernelColonel]

Brawl was not designed to be competetive.

Neither was Melee.

Make what you will of that.