Re: Question about Brawl's future.

[SamuraiPanda]

I was sent this PM by someone earlier today, and I realized that this question is something I've seen echoed around these boards. I'm sure many more have pondered this, but have never wanted to post the question in fear of how some people would respond. So I decided to share the PM and my response to it in here. I hope it can be of use to some of you out there.

Note: This thread is not about the debate of Melee vs Brawl. The context of the situation should make that clear, but it appears some people don't see that.

I'm sorry to bother you but I wanted to ask you a question: Do you believe that Brawl has a competitive future? I wanted to ask someone who's actually deeply involved in the workings of the Smash community.

You see, because of where I live, I was never really able to participate in Melee tournaments but since Brawl has Wifi, things have really opened up for me and for the past two months, I have been playing Brawl an average of 5-6 hours a day to improve myself for competitive play. I will be entering my first real tournament in two weeks but, recently, I have seen a large amount of negativity towards Brawl. As you're probably aware, it is being hallowed as a shallow game especially by people like Gimpyfish and Yuna. People can't seem to get over that Brawl isn't exactly like Melee and I feel that the community is unintentionally killing this game's future.

So, in closing, am I wasting my time with competitive Brawl? I don't want to be part of something that will be close to dead within a year or two. I clocked in close to 2000 hours with Melee and I want to move on but I don't feel like a decent amount of community wants to.

Thank you for your time if you chose to read this.

What you are seeing unfold here is the standard growing pains that every community goes through when a new sequel is released. It is only new to SWF because this is the first time our community has gotten a sequel since we've become as big as we are now. Just remember that the veterans you see posting have spent years of their lives devoted to Melee. They fell in love with Melee's speed, technical game, characters, tournament scene, and everything in between. Can you blame them for not liking Brawl? Brawl may seem like the same game to an outsider, but to insiders like you and I, its easy to see just how different Brawl is from Melee. It is a completely unique game from Melee, providing a different experience altogether. Its simply a matter of preference over which you prefer, not a matter of which is more competitive. And there is no doubt that this game has a competitive future. But you have to realize that in a few years time you may not be hearing about the same old pros from the Melee days. There will be new pros, new players that people idolize, new tournaments with hundreds of people, new events that bring media coverage, and even more. I think its quite exciting to be in the middle of a new generation to our community. Its one of the best parts of a new game!

Don't be discouraged by the vocal minority. Those saying that Brawl is "bad" are simply venting their own frustrations. They're trying to make Brawl into Melee, which is an impossible task. They're stuck to the game that brought them here in the first place and its hard to blame them for their disappointment after they found out that Brawl is different. Instead, you should be one of the people who embrace this game for everything its worth. Keep learning, keep progressing, and continue getting better. When you go to your first tournament, I'm sure you'll realize just how important it is to be involved with the community. You'll make new friends, learn new things, and enjoy a completely different part of Brawl that you haven't even seen yet. If you continue being active, you will meet all the regular faces in your local area and eventually become one of them. In no time you'll be making inside jokes in a thread on the regional boards like most other Smashers do. And don't worry about the results; Nobody does well at their first few tournaments. Personally, I had to go to 5 tournaments before I learned how to play like I normally do with my friends. But tournaments are essential to becoming better at the game. Wi-Fi doesn't even come close to training you for the real scene. And if you stick with it, you'll fall in love with Brawl in more ways than you could possibly imagine. Its not just the game.

Also, no worries about "wasting your time." Every basic concept that you learn in Brawl will transfer to any other fighting game you play in the future, and can even transfer sometimes to other genres as well. If for some reason you decide that Brawl is not the game for you, then you'll be able to use your newly acquired skills for other things.

Keep your eyes focused. Don't worry about what others think. Only focus on becoming the best player you can possibly be along with the others around you who feel the same way. It will be worth it in the end.

 

[choknater]

Nice thread, Panda. I've grown to ignore the moping about change. I knew whining, complaining, and negativity would happen, but I never thought that the majority of smashboards would be on the "I miss Melee" bandwagon.

In the end, I love both games, and I try to be the best player I can at both of them. And for the sake of being a true smash fan, I wanna pick up Smash 64 and get good at that...

People are probably going to barge in this thread and say "it's all been said before, shut up about Melee/Brawl"...

But I think it is always good to see a nice, positive point of view coming from someone of good reputation.

 

[Yukiwarashi]

This was a pretty nice read. I'm heading to my second tournament this weekend (I never got to participate in my first because I was too late) and this makes me feel a lot better. I don't have any major problems with Brawl and I hope that it's able to do what Melee did for the old members here.

 

[Jam Stunna]

I wrote this earlier to friend on AIM, and I think it sums up Brawl perfectly:

Rgs10168 (11:29:01 PM): Not exactly. The thing I discovered when I wrote that article is that most new people like what Sakurai changed in Brawl, so they're flocking towards the game (which is exactly what Sakurai/Nintendo wanted, so I guess they actually did the right thing). The community is going to switch over to Brawl basically by virtue of the huge influx of new people, no matter what anyone says. There's no incentive for me to change over to Brawl, because I won't win a tournament anyway. There is incentive for them to follow the crowd though, since they can win

Rgs10168 (11:29:57 PM): Cort/M2K/PC etc. aren't pushing Brawl forward, they're just riding the wave. Most people don't understand that, and that's why we keep getting these irrelevant and ultimately useless Brawl vs. Melee debates. You can't stop the tides

 

[BlueBlood]

Honestly that has to be one of the best posts ive ever read Panda

 

[Tabris-]

I don't see a lot of quality posts here, and that was definitely one of the best ones I've seen posted on any forum I've ever been to.

Good job matey

 

[Cookiez]

Lol at mod *** kissage :D

All that aside, I do agree with the majority of what you've said. Brawl, most certainly has a competetive future ahead of it (the huge fanbase alone would see to that), but at this moment in time it seems like Brawl has less competetive potential as a game than Melee.

 

[Zodiac]

Brawl has a smaller competitive future, I don't believer that it can ever truly grow due to that fact that is "bad" and just doesn't have the proper mechanics for the type of fighting game places like mlg accept. (The only reason evo has a brawl circuit is because they had a melee circuit It will be taken off within a year)

As stated above, my spin, brawl has infinitively less potential to be a game to compete in, if its your preference between the two then all your doing is forcing a competitive aspect into a game that was built SPECIFICALLY TO COUNTER THAT MIND SET, honestly I don't see why someone wants to be competitive with a game that was built to be easy to win and to BE NONE COMPETITIVE.

Yes brawl has a competitive future, buts its one thats going to be forced, it wont come naturally like other fighting games did, and being forced into this I would express concern about Brawl's future in competitive play.

addressing another comment, Melee pros that say brawl is bad arent venting their frustration because they don't like brawl. Their venting their frustration at what a traditionally competitive series(Smash64 to) has become. A noob friendly counter competitive game, and it doesn't hold the same excitement as the other two.

Another take-

Fighting games, all of them, are designed to have deep mechanics and keep players enthralled in the experience of one on one combat, Tekken, street fighter, Marvel vs capcom, guilty gear, the entire soul calibur series and finally, smash64 and finally Super smash brothers Melee.

With brawl, it was not designed to keep the players enthralled and always seeking to get better and trying to compete, frankly brawl is just feeding of melee's aftershock of competitive gaming in that matter.

Brawl was designed with one thought always at the forefront of the designer's mind. "I need to make this a game that any casual gamer can pick up and have fun with" While that may not be his exact thought he has more than confirmed whats in this paragraph in his numerous interviews.

that being said the bottom line is, the ONLY reason brawl is getting this huge of a reception, the ONLY reason players around the world are scrambling to discover deeper levels of play, The ONLY reason tournaments are springing up all over the place, Is because of the great impact melee made on the COMPETITIVE FIGHTER community, not the smash community, I can Guarantee that every pro smasher can pick another fighting game and have a much bigger degree of skill than someone who hasn't played fighting games ever. The same CANNOT be said for brawl, because brawl wasn't built as a fighting game, in fact as so many have stated, it was designed to be the exact opposite kind of game.

Why can this happen? Because Melee is a fighting game first and a party game second, brawl, is just a party game.

with that information I want to answere the person's question who Pm'd smaurai panda,

Yes, you MAY be wasting your time with brawl, its very possible that in a year brawl will be dropped from the official competitive circuits and most home tournaments, but as panda said, if you like brawl, practice brawl.

 

[Yuna]

I never said Brawl was shallow, by the way. Less deep than Melee, yes. But I never called it shallow.

And why even bring this up now? The Brawl vs. Melee war settled into a truce a long time ago. Some of us still don't like the game, even after all this time. Some are making the transition because they "have" to (since the community apparently is making it). Others embrace the game.

Only time will tell if the game can make it as a Competitive fighting game, better or worse than Melee. Those who feel the game is worse than Melee are free to feel that way. You have no right to talk down on us as if we're "wrong" or should just suck it up and "take it".

I would never randomly say "Brawl is teh suck!", but if, for example, someone asked me my opinion of Brawl, I'd tell them. Or if there was a thread about which game we feel should take precedence over the other, I'd nominate Melee. But I would never randomly attack all Brawl-lovers like so many of them are attacking us "haters".

I have no problems with both games co-existing, though. I think the community should just host tournaments in both games until such time it's been determined if Brawl is worth the transition.

Word of warning: The Soul Calibur community enthusiastically made the switch from II to III. Guess what happened? The worldwide Competitive SC-communities were decimated. Virtually everyone's stopped playing SC Competitively and you almost never see any large tournaments for it anymore. This is the price you might have to pay if you blindly rush in and make the transition without first evaluating the game.

 

[Lumpy..]

Melee is a fighting game first and a party game second, brawl, is just a party game.

wow... just... wow...
you're post sounds really ignorant IMO...
i don't even play brawl anymore...
i'm a melee fan too...
and i know brawl was meant to be "noob friendly"
but you have to understand...
the better player still wins more often than not...

melee was just a party game when it came out...
it had like 7 years to develop the way it did...
and although brawl does seem slow/boring to me as a fighter, only time can tell how it will be played in years to come...

i'm fine with the games coexisting...
yuna sounds smart... haha

 

[SamuraiPanda]

I never said Brawl was shallow, by the way. Less deep than Melee, yes. But I never called it shallow.

And why even bring this up now? The Brawl vs. Melee war settled into a truce a long time ago. Some of us still don't like the game, even after all this time. Some are making the transition because they "have" to (since the community apparently is making it). Others embrace the game.

Only time will tell if the game can make it as a Competitive fighting game, better or worse than Melee. Those who feel the game is worse than Melee are free to feel that way. You have no right to talk down on us as if we're "wrong" or should just suck it up and "take it".

I never said people who prefer Melee were wrong. In fact, I explicitly said that you are entirely justified to prefer Melee over Brawl. Its understandable why you would do so. The only reason why I brought this up (and why I posted this in the GBD) is because there are people who have just come to SWF recently but were faced with person after person saying "Melee > Brawl, get used to it." Think back to when you first started on this site. When you first thought of becoming good, and had hopes of making it somewhere with a game you enjoy. Hearing that over and over is rather hard for many people who have been looking forward to Brawl's release, so this thread is merely some words of encouragement and advice for those individuals.

And I never said you called Brawl shallow. Thats what the PM said ^_^''

Brawl has a smaller competitive future, I don't believer that it can ever truly grow due to that fact that is "bad" and just doesn't have the proper mechanics for the type of fighting game places like mlg accept. (The only reason evo has a brawl circuit is because they had a melee circuit It will be taken off within a year)

As stated above, my spin, brawl has infinitively less potential to be a game to compete in, if its your preference between the two then all your doing is forcing a competitive aspect into a game that was built SPECIFICALLY TO COUNTER THAT MIND SET, honestly I don't see why someone wants to be competitive with a game that was built to be easy to win and to BE NONE COMPETITIVE.

Yes brawl has a competitive future, buts its one thats going to be forced, it wont come naturally like other fighting games did, and being forced into this I would express concern about Brawl's future in competitive play.

addressing another comment, Melee pros that say brawl is bad arent venting their frustration because they don't like brawl. Their venting their frustration at what a traditionally competitive series(Smash64 to) has become. A noob friendly counter competitive game, and it doesn't hold the same excitement as the other two.

Well, I wholeheartedly disagree with you on nearly all fronts. But this thread isn't really the place for a debate on the matter. Perhaps I'll make a thread some day on my personal take of Melee vs Brawl and I'll debate your points, but I'm not going to do so now.

 

[Zankoku]

I've actually found that more than anything, it's the community spawned from Brawl that I dislike. The game itself is fine.

 

[NES n00b]

@ Zodiac, neither 64 nor Melee were designed to be competitive fighters either (though Melee was obviously made to be deeper than 64). I do, however unfortunate, agree with you everywhere else.

Panda, even though alot of the stuff has been said, you did do one thing I really liked. You said that people have a right to an opinion to not like Brawl and understand part of where we come from unlike other such topics where it says "suck it up Brawl is the way of the future" or "Melee players are wrong Brawl is w/e." I applaud you for that. I wanted to get competitive in Melee because it played....like Melee. I don't understand how some other people can't understand that some people don't like Brawl now cause they liked the way Melee played and didn't just play because it had Smash in the title. <_< It isn't about adapting, it is about what you like.

Brawl IS competitive because there are consistent winners. The question should be how long will it last or how deep the game is. Competitive is thrown around too much willy nilly.

Edit: I also agree with Ankoku. Man, these new people are the sterotypical "new person trying to get good in a sequel of a popular game," and party game players. I understand they are excited for the game they have waited to be the best at or just to play and they are new, but some of them really need to lurk more to get info and to stop posting ignorant things. Also, these group of people are taking my Melee away (as in number of Melee tournies) from me so that doesn't help either. =(

 

[Speedsk8er]

Thanks, Panda. You actually helped me with that post. ^_^

 

[LP4Life666]

Panda, that was one of the most well written and inspiring posts evar. The highlight of that post, for me at least, was the following: "Can you blame them for not liking Brawl? Brawl may seem like the same game to an outsider, but to insiders like you and I, its easy to see just how different Brawl is from Melee. It is a completely unique game from Melee, providing a different experience altogether. Its simply a matter of preference over which you prefer, not a matter of which is more competitive."
I can definately reflect upon that. In fact, I made a post on Scar's beast of a thread on Brawl vs. Melee's competitiveness that expanded on how the two games differ, not necessarily how one game is superior to the other. But how much weight does personal preference really influence the Smash community? Enough to have a sizeable following of Melee competitors to match those that have moved onto Brawl? Perhaps we don't even have a choice in the matter

Which brings me to Yuna's post. "The Soul Calibur community enthusiastically made the switch from II to III. Guess what happened? The worldwide Competitive SC-communities were decimated. Virtually everyone's stopped playing SC Competitively and you almost never see any large tournaments for it anymore." That is quite a scary thought for the future of not only Melee advocates, but ALL Smash players. However, I feel inclined to point out that while Melee is very different in many ways from Brawl in terms of game mechanics, I feel that the same does not hold true for Soul Calibur. I personally love SCII, and SCIII did not have the same magic as its predecessor :/.

 

[momochuu]

Don't be discouraged by the vocal minority. Those saying that Brawl is "bad" are simply venting their own frustrations. They're trying to make Brawl into Melee, which is an impossible task. They're stuck to the game that brought them here in the first place and its hard to blame them for their disappointment after they found out that Brawl is different. Instead, you should be one of the people who embrace this game for everything its worth

Thank you so much for this. Alot of people on SWF need to read this. I never understood how people could say Brawl is "bad and Melee is better. I guess it's because after playing a game for 7 years, you kinda get attached.

 

[FeArTeHsMaSh]

Unfortunantly, I was there to witness the decline of Soul Calibur, having followed that community extensively.

As for Brawl? I believe that it is safe to say that, whether Brawl becomes competitive or not, it is currently riding the momentum generated by the pro melee scene.

 

[Benjamin Linus]

What you are seeing unfold here is the standard growing pains that every community goes through when a new sequel is released. It is only new to SWF because this is the first time our community has gotten a sequel since we've become as big as we are now. Just remember that the veterans you see posting have spent years of their lives devoted to Melee. They fell in love with Melee's speed, technical game, characters, tournament scene, and everything in between. Can you blame them for not liking Brawl? Brawl may seem like the same game to an outsider, but to insiders like you and I, its easy to see just how different Brawl is from Melee. It is a completely unique game from Melee, providing a different experience altogether. Its simply a matter of preference over which you prefer, not a matter of which is more competitive. And there is no doubt that this game has a competitive future. But you have to realize that in a few years time you may not be hearing about the same old pros from the Melee days. There will be new pros, new players that people idolize, new tournaments with hundreds of people, new events that bring media coverage, and even more. I think its quite exciting to be in the middle of a new generation to our community. Its one of the best parts of a new game!

Don't be discouraged by the vocal minority. Those saying that Brawl is "bad" are simply venting their own frustrations. They're trying to make Brawl into Melee, which is an impossible task. They're stuck to the game that brought them here in the first place and its hard to blame them for their disappointment after they found out that Brawl is different.

i think you're right about people venting their frustrations and that it is uncalled for to refer to brawl as "bad". However, as a former melee player i completely understand what our community is trying to say.

The main problem is the fact that as gamers we make the game competitive. For melee we found all sorts of amazing glitches and tricks that made the game very fast paced, intense and creative. This made melee an amazing game that, to me, should never die because there are infinite possiblities. We as a community were successful with melee. I believe what is happening is that we are failing with brawl. yet again our community is trying to make a competitive game out of the smash bros series but i think that due to its physics and just characteristics its just not possible.

this comes down to the question how do you define a good competitive game. for some brawl is very competitive even with out fancy combos or glitches. this is where the big dividing line between the melee players and the brawl players is.

In my personal opinion the characteristics of brawl continually suggest the game is not meant to be played in tournements. Tripping, low hit stun, lack of speed and easier recoverying all factor into the idea that brawl is just a game for fun. Of course those who are ready for a change will take these things lightly and will try and look at what is in the game. Chain grabbing, character specific glitches and techniques help make the game seem like it can be played professionally. this is where i am unsure which is more prominent. it is really a question of opinion but i think that the community as a whole will have to make a choice. otherwise we may as well end up like the SC community.

As for an on topic post. i believe brawls time as a competitive game will surely be tested this summer. Many of the strong melee supporters are organizing several large tourneys and smashfests which may either attract new players or re-convert some of the old.

after a few responses ill make a more strong argument as to why i believe brawl should be taken lightly.

 

[NDUDE]

I didn't even need to read your post to know that you're right (though I did, LOL). Ever since I saw you on NSider back when you were still a Cappy there, I knew you had some sense in you. I'm still playing Brawl at a competitive level with a few others who like to play it the way I do. I'm also trying to implement my own styles, etc. in my fighting (grabs in Brawl are useless my ***). Good post, SP.

 

[MoldinMindz]

I disagree w/ this post. I feel that new players should be warned about brawls inferiority so they don't waste their time with it. We need to stop deluding ourselves just because "Smash" is in the title. For a good online experience with rankings, no lag and tournies, give mariokartwii a try.

 

[Resident_Smash_Genius]

As stated above, my spin, brawl has infinitively less potential to be a game to compete in, if its your preference between the two then all your doing is forcing a competitive aspect into a game that was built SPECIFICALLY TO COUNTER THAT MIND SET, honestly I don't see why someone wants to be competitive with a game that was built to be easy to win and to BE NONE COMPETITIVE.

So if I were to say "you're bloody terrible at this, I could beat you!" You wouldn't want to try? Nonsense, of course you would. It may be designed to be against that but there's always someone who wins and there will ALWAYS be competition.

Yes brawl has a competitive future, buts its one thats going to be forced, it wont come naturally like other fighting games did, and being forced into this I would express concern about Brawl's future in competitive play.

addressing another comment, Melee pros that say brawl is bad arent venting their frustration because they don't like brawl. Their venting their frustration at what a traditionally competitive series(Smash64 to) has become. A noob friendly counter competitive game, and it doesn't hold the same excitement as the other two.

It's not that n00b friendly. Easy to pick up sure but the better player still wins. (Unless you're talking the ease of counterpicking which is ludicrous this early in the development)

Another take-

Fighting games, all of them, are designed to have deep mechanics and keep players enthralled in the experience of one on one combat, Tekken, street fighter, Marvel vs capcom, guilty gear, the entire soul calibur series and finally, smash64 and finally Super smash brothers Melee.

With brawl, it was not designed to keep the players enthralled and always seeking to get better and trying to compete, frankly brawl is just feeding of melee's aftershock of competitive gaming in that matter.

You could not be more wrong. If you think that Melee and 64 were designed for 1v1 matches, you're delusioned into thinking the competitive community actually matters to Nintendo. You seem to have this idea that previous smash titles were designed for more that party play. WRONG.

Brawl was designed with one thought always at the forefront of the designer's mind. "I need to make this a game that any casual gamer can pick up and have fun with" While that may not be his exact thought he has more than confirmed whats in this paragraph in his numerous interviews.

Why can this happen? Because Melee is a fighting game first and a party game second, brawl, is just a party game.

with that information I want to answere the person's question who Pm'd smaurai panda,

Yes, you MAY be wasting your time with brawl, its very possible that in a year brawl will be dropped from the official competitive circuits and most home tournaments, but as panda said, if you like brawl, practice brawl.

Ok, firstly, all of the smash games were designed to be for the casual gamer. In fact 90% of games are designed for the casual gamer period. For goodness sakes MELEE WAS A PARTY GAME TOO. IMO it just got lucky enough to find a community willing to nuture it and watch the game grow. It was a party game first. End of story and any other answer is ****ing wrong.

On the rest of your points, I pretty much agree with you. Brawl is growing at rapid speeds because of melee's success.

On another note, I was one of the people that left after SCII left. And by leave I mean only host SCII tournaments.

 

[dj_pwn1423]

I disagree w/ this post. I feel that new players should be warned about brawls inferiority so they don't waste their time with it. We need to stop deluding ourselves just because "Smash" is in the title. For a good online experience with rankings, no lag and tournies, give mariokartwii a try.

MK tournaments? I hope you are not serious. If brawl is bad competetive game mario kart wii is just awful.

 

[Genghis Krahn]

And why even bring this up now? The Brawl vs. Melee war settled into a truce a long time ago.

Just what I was thinking. I was expecting another new member to have posted this, not a Mod. This is the kind of thread we wanted the Mods to close already, because of the countless amount of them. It's put decently, but I don't see why it needs to be put up for discussion once again.

 

[dj_pwn1423]

Just what I was thinking. I was expecting another new member to have posted this, not a Mod. This is the kind of thread we wanted the Mods to close already, because of the countless amount of them. It's put decently, but I don't see why it needs to be put up for discussion once again.

because there isnt really anything better to discuss in the brawl board...

 

[Luigi player]

Thanks for the post panda, but it doesn't really help (me) much. I'm living in europe and loved Smash 64 and Melee, and really waited for Brawl very long and was very excited about it like everyone else was, but I still don't have the game and I can now count days (only about 35 days to go!) now but I read SO MUCH bad things about Brawl every day that I really ask myself if it's worth getting it and playing it...

I'll still get it because I didn't know of any competitive things when I first got Melee and Smash 64 and really liked those games(even after many years), but it makes me sad to read so many negative points about it.

Everyone wants to stick to Melee, others don't want to play anything because they don't care anymore...
and so on and so forth.

Personally, I still find Melee fun to play, but only for like 4 fights. It get's REALLY old then and just isn't really fun anymore. It's nice to play it every now and then. And that's because I hope that the community switches to Brawl, because Melee feels so old to me.
I want something new, and want to try out every new character, play on new stages, hear more music, try the adventure mode, etc.

And after some "fun-time" with Brawl I want to start getting really good, learning some new techniques and going to some tournaments. I just hope this game won't die out and that I'll like it, because Smash is somewhat the only game I play.
In the past I played many games, on the Genesis, NES, Game Gear, SNES, N64, GC, GB, GBC, GBA, NDS, Wii, ... and sometimes other games like halo with some friends, but now games aren't really that great anymore, and I wouldn't even have the money to buy every game I want. And even if I had the money I wouldn't buy many games. They're getting boring. Smash is the only really game that is still fun and that's because some of my favourite characters are in it and because many people like it and it's competitive and such :/

I really hope Brawl isn't that bad. Since games are getting boring for me I'm not even sure if I could wait until a next Smash is made (that is hopefully better (if there even is a next one)), because I just wouldn't care anymore about it.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Just what I was thinking. I was expecting another new member to have posted this, not a Mod. This is the kind of thread we wanted the Mods to close already, because of the countless amount of them. It's put decently, but I don't see why it needs to be put up for discussion once again.

Again, this thread is not a debate on Melee vs Brawl. I think I'll put that on the front post as people seem to misunderstand that point.

 

[Egret]

on second thought I don't really want to say this


too late it seems

Mods have access to the SBR. And I didn't get mod status from SMYN btw ^_^

I was aware of both. I did not mean to imply the second statement and regardless of the first, well I don't know what goes on there, but from listening to the show I had the impression that you were not particularly active in the SBR's melee actions, but perhaps that's not the case.

 

[Genghis Krahn]

Again, this thread is not a debate on Melee vs Brawl. I think I'll put that on the front post as people seem to misunderstand that point.

I understand that. But the thing is, that is the exact discussion that will arise out of this thread. That, and it's been talked to death. And now the zombie of the Brawl Competitive scene (VS. the Melee Competitive scene) topic has risen again.

They fell in love with Melee's speed, technical game, characters, tournament scene, and everything in between. Can you blame them for not liking Brawl? Brawl may seem like the same game to an outsider, but to insiders like you and I, its easy to see just how different Brawl is from Melee. It is a completely unique game from Melee, providing a different experience altogether. Its simply a matter of preference over which you prefer, not a matter of which is more competitive.

That's the part that most will reply to.

 

[Best101]

I didn't even need to read your post to know that you're right (though I did, LOL). Ever since I saw you on NSider back when you were still a Cappy there, I knew you had some sense in you. I'm still playing Brawl at a competitive level with a few others who like to play it the way I do. I'm also trying to implement my own styles, etc. in my fighting (grabs in Brawl are useless my ***). Good post, SP.

What was his username again

 

[Bud]

90% of the argument against brawl is repeated and the person speaking has no clue what their talking about, like zodiac. The game is obviously competitive and the better player will win most of the time. New techs and physic glitches are being found everyday, and many of the new things are character specific which people say is a bad thing or makes it pointless, I think it adds depth, you have to know different techniques for each character for and against them. The game is evolving and many people are getting better at the game. Many people I see denouncing smash say they only played it for a little while and quit, then they continually down brawl as if they are on the same level as those who have been actively playing the game since it came out. The game takes skill to be the best, simple as that, and the best will win along with the fact that millions of brawl discs have been sold pretty much assures a good competitive scene. Even if all melee pros quit right now, in 3 years some noob 12 year old will be the next ken, then the old melee pros will come back to brawl and get their minds blown. In other words, 450 people quit, millions continue to play and eventually get in a fight with one of their friends over who is better at brawl...and... competition is reborn.

 

[choknater]

Again, this thread is not a debate on Melee vs Brawl. I think I'll put that on the front post as people seem to misunderstand that point.

Yeah, perhaps it was inevitable.

 

[Benjamin Linus]

I didn't even need to read your post to know that you're right (though I did, LOL). Ever since I saw you on NSider back when you were still a Cappy there, I knew you had some sense in you. I'm still playing Brawl at a competitive level with a few others who like to play it the way I do. I'm also trying to implement my own styles, etc. in my fighting (grabs in Brawl are useless my ***). Good post, SP.

im sorry but hes not right. im sorry for quoting myself but i believe i made a valid point which should be considered. if anyone disagrees please inform me.

i think you're right about people venting their frustrations and that it is uncalled for to refer to brawl as "bad". However, as a former melee player i completely understand what our community is trying to say.

The main problem is the fact that as gamers we make the game competitive. For melee we found all sorts of amazing glitches and tricks that made the game very fast paced, intense and creative. This made melee an amazing game that, to me, should never die because there are infinite possiblities. We as a community were successful with melee. I believe what is happening is that we are failing with brawl. yet again our community is trying to make a competitive game out of the smash bros series but i think that due to its physics and just characteristics its just not possible.

this comes down to the question how do you define a good competitive game. for some brawl is very competitive even with out fancy combos or glitches. this is where the big dividing line between the melee players and the brawl players is.

In my personal opinion the characteristics of brawl continually suggest the game is not meant to be played in tournements. Tripping, low hit stun, lack of speed and easier recoverying all factor into the idea that brawl is just a game for fun. Of course those who are ready for a change will take these things lightly and will try and look at what is in the game. Chain grabbing, character specific glitches and techniques help make the game seem like it can be played professionally. this is where i am unsure which is more prominent. it is really a question of opinion but i think that the community as a whole will have to make a choice. otherwise we may as well end up like the SC community.

As for an on topic post. i believe brawls time as a competitive game will surely be tested this summer. Many of the strong melee supporters are organizing several large tourneys and smashfests which may either attract new players or re-convert some of the old.

after a few responses ill make a more strong argument as to why i believe brawl should be taken lightly.

 

[Lumpy..]

i'm still hanging on to the hope that the melee scene will not just drift away into the fog...
brawl's fun... if melee died in a horrible car accident, i'd prolly play brawl...
i actually support the brawl scene... i'm just so picky about the games i get into, that i tend to hold onto one i really like...
coexistence is the answer for now... and hopefully for a while...

 

[Wubblez]

Very nice point and I agree with it. I personally think Brawl has the potential to be a great game. It definitely has the community to be a competitive one, and I think no matter how much people vent or argue about how bad Brawl may or may not be it still is going to become a competitive game.

 

[Zodiac]

So if I were to say "you're bloody terrible at this, I could beat you!" You wouldn't want to try? Nonsense, of course you would. It may be designed to be against that but there's always someone who wins and there will ALWAYS be competition.

Me personally, and about everyone on these boards would not hesitate to take you up on that. I'm not saying brawl ISN'T competitive, I'm pointing out that it was built NOT to be competitive like the rest of fighting games but like Fun Nintendo Competition. Hell, im sure half the posters here, including me, get competitive over wii sports!

You could not be more wrong. If you think that Melee and 64 were designed for 1v1 matches, you're delusioned into thinking the competitive community actually matters to Nintendo. You seem to have this idea that previous smash titles were designed for more that party play. WRONG.

Both smash64(Less so) and Melee(More so) were designed with a much deeper level of play for those who were willing (Us the smash community) to nurture it, as you said. Yes, ALL of the smash games are party games and aimed for casual's as well as hardcore, which was why we got the deeper fighting game that is melee. And brawl is aimed at casuals almost exclusively, and thats why we got the far less technical game that is Brawl.

Ok, firstly, all of the smash games were designed to be for the casual gamer. In fact 90% of games are designed for the casual gamer period. For goodness sakes MELEE WAS A PARTY GAME TOO. IMO it just got lucky enough to find a community willing to nuture it and watch the game grow. It was a party game first. End of story and any other answer is ****ing wrong.

I think I already answered this one, but the way myself and ALL competitive smashers prior to brawls release saw melee(If they were serious) was as a fighting game first.

wow... just... wow...
you're post sounds really ignorant IMO...
i don't even play brawl anymore...
i'm a melee fan too...
and i know brawl was meant to be "noob friendly"
but you have to understand...
the better player still wins more often than not...

melee was just a party game when it came out...
it had like 7 years to develop the way it did...
and although brawl does seem slow/boring to me as a fighter, only time can tell how it will be played in years to come...

i'm fine with the games coexisting...
yuna sounds smart... haha

The games co-existing will happen just fine, and yes, the better player wins... what was your point there? Saying Brawl is just a party game isnt saying its completley skill less. yes it Requires Less skill than melee and just about any other technical fighter but you missed the point of my post.

It was a logical over view of the facts from where i'm viewing this entire brawl/melee fiasco unfold. And a conclusion drawn from those facts.

 

[Shai Hulud]

To the sender of the PM: In some sense you are very much wasting your time with Brawl. You're investing thousands of hours into a video game for which the material benefits will likely be negligible (or negative--going to tournaments can be expensive) and from which you will derive little to no useful life experience. But in that sense we're all wasting our time. I think you shouldn't worry about the competitive future of the game if you enjoy playing it now. You're not likely to find later validation as a pro (let's face it--very few do), but if you like the game it won't matter. In the end only you really know what is or isn't a waste of your time.

 

[Zodiac]

i'm still hanging on to the hope that the melee scene will not just drift away into the fog...
brawl's fun... if melee died in a horrible car accident, i'd prolly play brawl...
i actually support the brawl scene... i'm just so picky about the games i get into, that i tend to hold onto one i really like...
coexistence is the answer for now... and hopefully for a while...

I just want to say this is a really good view to have on the whole situation of "Brawl or Melee?" (I find at this point saying brawl vs melee will not make anyone smarter or better for it)

As a melee competitive exclusive smasher, I support the brawl scene. Even though my personal opinion is in favor of melee. Theres nothing wrong with letting brawl grow.

Another thing apart from this, I really want to let the new guys who came here just for brawl (And anyone else that wants to listen) know that us,(the melee smashers) Arn't venting because we want to piss any of you off. We're venting because we had a MUCH different picture in our minds for what brawl would be, and for us, it failed to deliver. We don't hate you guys or Brawl as much as you think.

 

[ShengNu]

very imspiring :] and i agree with you on it 100%

 

[Lumpy..]

i remember how depressed i was the day before brawl came out. haha
i thought everyone was going to switch over to brawl and never come back...
but now i think it will live a while longer... and i'm greatful...

and nobody should worry about wasting time with whichever game may die out first...
it's about fun... that's it... if you wanna get better at a game... it's so that it'll be more fun...
if none of us were "wasting time" SWF wouldn't exist... games are a waste of time...

 

[Fatmanonice]

To the sender of the PM: In some sense you are very much wasting your time with Brawl. You're investing thousands of hours into a video game for which the material benefits will likely be negligible (or negative--going to tournaments can be expensive) and from which you will derive little to no useful life experience. But in that sense we're all wasting our time. I think you shouldn't worry about the competitive future of the game if you enjoy playing it now. You're not likely to find later validation as a pro (let's face it--very few do), but if you like the game it won't matter. In the end only you really know what is or isn't a waste of your time.

Oh Lord... I knew at least one person would respond like this. Yes, I'm aware that the vast majority of pursuits that people follow in life are pointless and do little more than create a shorter amount of before we are six feet under. Videogames are no different but, God help me, I love 'em. In case you haven't figured it out, I am the one who wrote the PM. My goal is not to become a Pro at this game but, rather, become a decent player that can hold his own in competitive matches with a decent number of characters. That's it, I don't want to become the next Isai or Ken, I simply want to be the best that I can be and, currently, I have a long way to go.

Just to give a short history of my smash playing: I loved the original and was probably one of the few people who really looked forward to Melee's arrival. Melee came and, for a time, I had plenty of people to play with but, they then moved onto various FPS's and racing games like Gran Turismo. Because of where I lived, the only tournaments I went to were small ones held at parties and various churches in the area. Items were usually on and I won most of them. I prefered to play with items off but the people I played with usually didn't. As time passed, I had fewer and fewer people to play against. I knew the various advanced techniques but there was no point in really ever using them because my opponent was the computer 90% of the time and my human opponents rarely knew them. Despite this, I clocked in close to 2000 hours with Melee and during the years 2003 and 2005, it was almost exclusively the only console games I played.

In the summer of 2005, I joined Nsider after Iwata pseudoannounced a SSB3 at E3 05. I joined SWF shortly after Brawl was offically announced at E3 06. Needless to say, I spent a lot of time speculating about Brawl and was member of about 5 forums in order to talk about it throughly. During those 2 1/2 years, I interacted with a ton of people and I still stay in touch with those people today. In February, a decent number of people from Nsider split off to create a forum for competitive Brawling. It's now May and most of the members have decided that not only is Melee far better than Brawl but Mario Kart Wii is a more competitive game and takes more skill to play succesfully. (I know, the irony is almost immeasurable.) Keep in mind that these are people I have been discussing about Brawl with as far back as July 2005 so it is kind of a shock that so many of them have already given up on it...

Because of Brawl's online, I've finally been given a chance to get into competitive smashing but a lot of people already seem to be losing interest. I can perfectly understand why Yuna and Gimpyfish prefer Melee but a good percentage of the newer members seem to be translating their words as "Brawl sucks: Melee's perfect." (In other words, I think some people are jumping on a bandwagon.) I have nothing against people who prefer Melee to Brawl and wish to continue playing it but I feel like there is an atmosphere of negativity when it comes to people who want to play Brawl competitively despite how there are still a decent number of people on the Brawl character boards (like myself).

I agree with what Samuraipanda said about game sequels because it usually happens. I imagine that a lot of people will respond like this when Starcraft 2 finally comes out and many people (including myself) have responded negatively to how much differfent Banjo Kazooie: Nuts and Bolts is from the previous two console titles. The gap between Melee and Brawl was a little more than 6 years and, obviously, a lot happened during that time for those that were able to get into competitive play. People like Yuna and Gimpyfish gave Brawl a chance but they still prefer Melee; that's fine but I feel that there are a decent number of people who haven't even done that much. These are usually the people that always bring up Brawl's average online and one player mode to justify why Brawl is worse than Melee.

Still, I'd like there to be a future to this game that includes more than a few far scattered people. I'm sorry that this post is so long but I felt like I needed to fully explain myself as to not be mistaken for someone who just recently got into Smash because of all the hype that surrounded Brawl.