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Smasher 101

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Greninja satisfaction: 80%

I'm not thrilled that the chances of us getting both Jigglypuff and Mewtwo are much lower now (though I don't really care either way about Mewtwo anymore), but overall I'm actually liking his inclusion. I don't really have that much of a problem with Gen VI getting a character already, and I am interested in playing as him. He doesn't excite me as much as Villager, Mega Man, or Little Mac, but I like him more than Rosalina and Wii Fit Trainer.
 

Louie G.

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Greninja Satisfaction: 95%

When I first heard that Greninja was revealed in the Direct, I didn't know how I felt. I expected Brawl + Mewtwo and quite frankly that's exactly what I wanted. Now I realize why that was stupid.
Greninja is one of my favorite starters of all time, and arguably my favorite Pokémon from Gen 6 (although Hawlucha may beat him out). I had thought about the possibility of Smash Bros, but I had ultimately shot it down since I figured that every starter would get equal treatment, and that a Kalos Trainer wouldn't replace the iconic Kanto Trainer. Clearly I was wrong about this, and Greninja is now a playable character in Smash Bros. My opinion was somewhat torn at first (what will become of Mewtwo and Jigglypuff?), but when I got around to watching the Direct and seeing Greninja in action, I was hyped. He looks like a really fun and unique character, and I can't wait to try him out.
Now as for the whole Mewtwo and Jigglypuff fiasco, I've decided that Greninja is a perfect addition. Not only does he represent the newest generation (being a Pokémon from said gen) but he is a fresh new fighter for the Pokémon franchise, which I now understand that we needed. Mewtwo and Jigglypuff are awesome, and I'm sure they'll be in as well, but everyone just vouches for the oversaturation of gen 1, and although that is the most iconic and popular generation, it doesn't necessarily advertise Pokémon as a whole very well. We have Lucario but that's it. Now we have Greninja, and that sets a sort of balance among the representation. While I love gen 1 a lot, Greninja has made me realize that we need more than gen 1 to efficiently represent Pokémon.
While Greninja wasn't always my first choice, I can't believe that it took me this long to see why he deserves it and how cool he can really be.
 

Keto

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Greninja satisfaction: 100%

Completely unexpected , is popular in X/Y, looks awesome, fits right in with the other fighters. Ash may have a Greninja eventually so his popularity will only increase as time goes on. Well done Sakurai.
 

Spinosaurus

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Not to get all semantic, but lets not pick bones with comments that are just disappointed that Greninja got picked over Mewtwo, as for all we know that is exactly the case. The truthful and kneejerk reactions are no less valid than the detailed analyses.
What analysis? The same that gets shot down repeatedly? It's silly to me to "analyze" the Smash roster when no one ever got it right. Where's K.Rool? Where's Ridely? I've been reading analysis about how they're a definite shoe in since Melee and I'm still not seeing them even after a decade.

Before anyone jumps to conclusions (since I know how much everyone here loves to do that), I'm not saying that roster discussions should be ceased completely. I think a healthy discussion about who one thinks should get in is perfectly fine. Disagreements and comparisons are bound to be made, but the problem here is that they're not encouraged. Jumping to conclusions, pulling out anecdotal evidence/opinionated analysis or trying interpret your subjective opinion as noting else but objectives - I see these way too often here and I think it's a very unhealthy thing.

But that's unrelated.Anyhow, comparisons are bound to be made yes, and it's perfectly fine to be disappointed over Greninja's inclusion, and say you'd prefer Mewtwo. However, I find it that it's been taken to a ridiculous degree that it's hard to talk about this character without seeing unthoughtful comparisons pop up. I believe that a fighting game character should be judged by the function of their moveset design, not aesthetics, and such I'd rather see comparisons to his moveset design rather than how they look. Now I don't want you to get the impression I'm giving out to you, actually. As much as I disagree with your points on Greninja specifically in your post, I respect them because of how personal you made it. I'd like to see more of that here.
 
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OcarinaOfDoom

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Greninja: 10%

He doubles Rosalina. As in, why? to not the worst thing ever, but I really wanted Brawl+Mewtwo.
 

RankoChan

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Greninja satisfaction: 50%
I'm not a fan of the newer Pokemon games, so I'm neutral towards Pokemon reps. Is he deserving? Yes, he's essentially the Charizard of his games. Is he an iconic Nintendo all-star? No, right now he's riding on recent popularity and it's too soon to tell if he'll stand the test of time amongst over 700 countless Pokemon designs and rising. I will say though that I like his design a lot more than Lucario's design however.
 

Leafeon523

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75%. While there are plenty of newcomers I would have preferred, i'm certainly excited for his inclusion.
 

Bauske

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Greninja satisfaction: 50%

It's not that I hate the character, but in all honesty I could care less about the character.

On the plus side:
- Unique design
- A fast, fun water type (sorry, Squirtle, you were a pain to play as)
- Came completely out of left field
- Is one of the more popular characters from X and Y

On the negative side:
- Came completely out of left field
- Was purposefully made to look like Mewtwo at the beginning of his trailer to cause confusion (low blow, Sakurai)
- Him and Charizard killed off Pokemon Trainer's returning chances, as did the switching characters aspect
- May or may not lower the chances of Mewtwo or Jigglypuff to return

Like I said, I'm pretty neutral to him, but I felt like had they revealed any other newcomer at the end of the direct it would have generated a ton more hype. Greninja is a cool addition, and for the people who are fans of him it made them all the more excited to see him in action, but to everyone else it was a very "meh" and "...really? him?" sort of reveal. I'm sure he'll make an interesting addition to the cast, but I have no real desire to play as him.
 

Gunla

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100% Satisfaction for Greninja.


OK, gonna say this right now, he's not really that unexpected. Why? Because Pokemon Smash Trends.
Melee- Mewtwo and Pichu (at least one newest Gen newcomer)
Brawl- PT and Lucario (at least one newest Gen newcomer)
4- ??? & Greninja (at least one newset Gen newcomer)
Greninja excellently fits the bill entirely and is one of the top choices for playable that they had.

He doesn't affect Mewtwo or Jiggs, but he does affect Squirtle & Ivy. PT is already gone at this point.

On my biased side, Greninja is currently my point Sweeper in Smogon/Pokemon Showdown OU. And he's my second favorite Pokemon of all time, beaten only by Scizor.
 

Erimir

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Not to get all semantic, but lets not pick bones with comments that are just disappointed that Greninja got picked over Mewtwo, as for all we know that is exactly the case. The truthful and kneejerk reactions are no less valid than the detailed analyses.
I agree about Pokemon. GameFreak is pulling the strings about which Pokemon to include in various forms in large part.

If Greninja gets in and Mewtwo doesn't, it's probably because GameFreak put him higher on the list. Not that Sakurai doesn't have some input.

I would say, however, that it's premature yet to wail that he took Mewtwo's spot. Greninja only totally kills Squirtle's chances (another water type is doubtful). And really, Squirtle and Ivysaur were mostly killed by the removal of transformations since Charizard was easily the most able to stand on his own of the three of them. There's room for 6 Pokemon, as there were 6 in Brawl, so there's room for both Mewtwo and Jigglypuff.

But really, I was more just commenting on the Toad vs. Rosalina thing. I don't think EAD is telling Sakurai which Mario characters to include. I don't think it was a matter of someone putting Rosalina on the list above Toad and taking his spot. I don't think Sakurai considered Toad to be on the list at all.
I will say though that I like his design a lot more than Lucario's design however.
I actually agree. There are some elements of Lucario's design that I think look really stupid. Mostly the baggy "shorts" and the droopy headdress tassels. His legs should be smoothed out. I understand the headdress is supposed to make him look like Anubis, but it sticks out way too far and makes him look like he's simultaneously a droopy-eared dog and a pointy-eared jackal. They could reduce it to only two, or make it a single flap, and it would look better.

Meanwhile, Greninja's tongue-scarf is the only thing that bothers me about his appearance... Partly because I can't make sense of how it actually fits. It doesn't look like it's actually coming out of his mouth, if you try to follow it around his neck...
 
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Curious Villager

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Satisfaction 95%

Yeah I'm pretty cool with Greninja. As much as I would have loved to see the Brawl Pokemon plus Mewtwo return. With over 700 different kinds of Pokemon existing in the series. Being stuck with the same ones from Brawl and Melee (minus Pichu) just feels very underwhelming and a huge shame. So I'm very happy that they gave us a newcomer after all. Initially I was advocating more for Zoroark as that newcomer but hey, I'm very happy with Greninja too as Froakie was my starter of choice in Pokemon Y and Greninja has risen into my list of favourite starters.

So even though I didn't support or even expect him. I'm still very happy to see it as a playable character in Smash Bros and happy that we got a brand new Pokemon character to play with too.

Not sure what this would mean for the Pokemon veterans but ah well.... I do hope Mewtwo and Jigglypuff can both still make it in somehow...
 

Spinosaurus

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On my biased side, Greninja is currently my point Sweeper in Smogon/Pokemon Showdown OU. And he's my second favorite Pokemon of all time, beaten only by Scizor.
Makes me curious on how receptive the competitive community were to his reveal. I haven't been in touch with the metagame since gen 5 weather wars, but I know how much of a darling Greninja is in the current one.
 

dimensionsword64

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Greninja Satisfaction: 99%
I supported Greninja, but I thought that it wouldn't happen, so my support started to drift off more to Brawl + Mewtwo, but then he got revealed, and I was reminded of why exactly I supported him, and now I'm very happy.

BTW, the only reason that I didn't do 100% is that I'm a little worried about Jigglypuff and Mewtwo.
 

Gunla

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Makes me curious on how receptive the competitive community were to his reveal. I haven't been in touch with the metagame since gen 5 weather wars, but I know how much of a darling Greninja is in the current one.
He's pretty much getting up there with Scizor in OU in usability and versatility. Meaning he's liked a lot.
 

andimidna

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(I never believed in the concept of series balance, btw. So no consolation there.)
Comparing series like Mother, Kid Icarus, DK, Starfox, and Fire Emblem doesn't make much sense, however...

Mario: 5
Pokemon: 6

Having those slots?
I definitely cannot see Sakurai letting that slide, so I imagine that if Game Freak and the development team picked the 6 Pokemon they wanted, they'd plan out their 6 slots for Mario immediately after.
I just can't see a roster where Pokemon has 6+ slots, and Mario has 5. Can you?
 

Pacack

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To be fair, Brawl had 4 Mario characters and 6 Pokemon characters. Just because PT was one slot doesn't mean he wasn't as much work as three different characters.
Exactly. Pokemon already has gotten more reps than Mario before. It wouldn't surprise me in the least.
 

andimidna

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To be fair, Brawl had 4 Mario characters and 6 Pokemon characters. Just because PT was one slot doesn't mean he wasn't as much work as three different characters.
To be fair, I specifically said slots.
As in, slots.
Which is what matters, transformations work for characters, not series.
And now that they're gone, that concept is gone. So it doesn't matter if you measure by slots vs characters.
Even though, in my opinion, it is been quite obviously slots in the past.
Measuring by characters has too many loopholes that over-complicate things such as: Luma, Nana, Red, or even FLUDD...
All special cases. It makes much more sense with slots, and always has.
Pokemon Trainer made sense as a Pokemon rep. There isn't a Mario series equivalent.

Exactly. Pokemon already has gotten more reps than Mario before. It wouldn't surprise me in the least.
Hmm... no. That still just doesn't make sense.
64:
Mario: 2
Pokemon: 2

Melee:
Mario: 5
Pokemon: 4

Brawl:
Mario: 4
Pokemon: 4

What I'm currently thinking for Smash 4 (post-direct):
Mario: 6
Pokemon: 6

It would be an eye-sore on the roster to see 6 Pokemon slots and 5 Mario slots.
Because it just doesn't make sense.
In Brawl it was fine and hidden away. But transformations are gone.
I'm back to expecting Bowser Jr. Even though I'm not a big fan of the character, I already got the Mario character I wanted.
 
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Glaciacott

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Ok, you're not getting my point. You may think in terms of roster slots, but I don't believe Sakurai sees it in the same way.

To Sakurai, it's still a matter of each character taking absurds amount of time to balance and create. I'm pretty sure he's not thinking in terms of "darn, I added a pokemon, now I must make things even with Mario and Zelda."
In the past Smash he worked on 6 Pokemon characters. Whether or not they were each a slot doesn't matter from the developer's perspective, since to them it's as much work. They don't think in terms of roster but in terms of character, and it's not comparable to Luma, Nana, Red, or (seriously?) FLUDD because THEY don't have movesets. They're part of movesets or other characters. Whereas balancing and movesets for ZSS, Sheik, Squirtle, Ivysaur and Charizard were all unique.
So again, as far as we know 6 Pokemon in this iteration is really about the same amount of work on Pokemon as he did in the previous Smash.

As for the idea of a new Mario character, I'd rather see newcomers from new series than two Mario newcomers, but that's just me.
 
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Spinosaurus

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Slots are basically just for the character select screen. It's silly to use them as measurements.

Even if you specifically said slots, it still doesn't make sense. Both Zelda and Pokemon technically had more characters than Mario in Brawl. Same way it didn't make sense to say that Metroid had one rep in Brawl when ZSS was entirely different in concept. (Though even with her own "slot", I bet that stigma won't go away...)
 

andimidna

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It will look visually awkward, what's so difficult to understand about that?
It's not true to the series' level of importance to Nintendo.
Like I said, I already got the Mario newcomer I wanted, and don't really want one, but I think it's happening.
 

Pacack

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It will look visually awkward, what's so difficult to understand about that?
It's not true to the series' level of importance to Nintendo.
Like I said, I already got the Mario newcomer I wanted, and don't really want one, but I think it's happening.
Here's the thing. Sakurai decides on the characters for the roster and then puts them into a roster formation that works. He's not going to add a character because the roster looks "visually awkward".
 

andimidna

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Here's the thing. Sakurai decides on the characters for the roster and then puts them into a roster formation that works. He's not going to add a character because the roster looks "visually awkward".
That's something that would come up when they are deciding the characters.
 

Rockaphin

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Pros:
  • Favorite starter from Gen 6
  • I like the design
  • Moveset looks fun
  • Dat Substitute Doll

Cons:
  • Somewhat of a random choice


Satisfaction: 95%
Greninja was one of those characters that I thought would be really cool, but never thought he had a chance outside of the Kalos Trainer. I didn't chose Greninja in Pokémon, I chose Delphox and God did I regret it. Looking forwards to playing as Charizard, Villager, and Greninja.
 

Glaciacott

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It will look visually awkward, what's so difficult to understand about that?
It's not true to the series' level of importance to Nintendo.
Like I said, I already got the Mario newcomer I wanted, and don't really want one, but I think it's happening.
If we go by visuals, people who see Yoshi and Wario, and to an extent Donkey Kong, will also see them as part of the same Mario universe. So if we're going by appearance, that's still a nice amount of Mario.
 

andimidna

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Hey, guys. I was curious what Miiverse thought of some of our favorite character's chances.
I'll be back with the averages of most of the major picks in a bit.
 

Gunla

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So @ Groose Groose you got any clue as to when we'll start nominations again? After the next rating of previous satisfaction? Cause we can't get enough satisfaction.
There's a certain mystical cat I'd like to rate, one that will need one especially after the Direct.
 
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andimidna

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So @ Groose Groose you got any clue as to when we'll start nominations again? After the next rating of previous satisfaction?
There's a certain mystical cat I'd like to rate, one that will need one especially after the Direct.
This one?


Okay, I've had Miiverse rate Palutena, Mewtwo, Ridley, K Rool, Ghirahim, and Bandana Dee.
I didn't ask them for want.
Only chance. Scores will be coming soon. I'll ask for other characters later.

EDIT: Actually, I'll ask for Chrom too. But then that will be it.
 
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Gunla

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Miiverse's thoughts on Mewtwo is the exact same thing that happened in Post-Brawl with Lucario, only with Greninja now. That's all the comments I typically see about the cat.
 

Groose

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Greninja Satisfaction: 85%
I've always loved Greninja. From the moment I saw him in the leak before X and Y launched, I knew he'd be my starter Pokemon of the sixth generation. I'm not a ninja fanboy or anything, but I think they can be pretty cool, and Greninja is cool to the max--his tongue-scarf is an amazing bit of design work in my eyes. Greninja also continues what I see as a long legacy of excellent water type starters, and I'm proud to say that he was my fifth water starter in six generations of playing Pokemon (sorry Swampert... Sceptile's just so much better). I'd go as far to say that Greninja is probably my favorite Pokemon from Gen VI, with a possible exception of Aegislash.

As much as I love him, I do have slight amount of misgiving about seeing him in Smash. He really isn't as much of an All-Star as some of the others. I don't know whether it's because I stopped watching the anime and stuff back in Sinnoh, but I really don't feel I have enough exposure to him to really think he belongs in a Smash Bros. title. This is a similar feeling to what I get when I look at Rosalina. Overall, this is a very minor complaint, but it does keep me from being entirely satisfied.

The thing that hurts my satisfaction even more is his moveset. Mega Man's moveset is a nostalgia overload; Villager abuses hammerspace enough to be both zany and utterly brilliant; Little Mac really captures the feel of a boxer and plays in very definitive manner; Rosalina has the most interesting moveset in the history of the series. What does Greninja have? Honestly, not much stands out to me. His signature Water Shruiken is there, but it doesn't look like it brings much to the table; as much as I am obsessed with his substitute attack, it appears to just be a basic counter. Many of his attacks are just pretty basic water moves. All in all, I'd say he lines up with the Wii Fit Trainer in terms of moveset rather than the other gems we're getting.

Even with my nitpicks about his moveset and unworthiness, my like for the character and the surprise really are what make me satisfied here. Yes, the surprise is something I view as something great about him. I've said in the past that I like roster surprises, but I've come off as a hypocrite because I've decried the major surprise character in this game--the Wii Fit Trainer. I've always viewed her as a bad surprise because I see her as little more than a troll character who didn't have anybody who wanted her or even liked her before her inclusion. Greninja is a good surprise because he is a well-liked Pokemon who was a very rare but present request. Rosalina is technically a good surprise by my definition, but I was so enthusiastic about pretty much every other Mario candidate (Toad, Junior, Waluigi, even Geno) that seeing the one that I didn't have any interest in was a let-down.

I will admit that Greninja wasn't a character had put too much thought into. Had I rated him, he'd have been somewhere from between a 1% and a 3.33% in chance, so I would be waaaaay off the mark. Even so, I'm not quite as surprised as you may think; although I included Brawl Pokemon + Mewtwo on my Ferbruary and March rosters, I noted on both that I thought a Pokemon shake-up seemed pretty likely because of Game Freak and the relative dearth of information we'd seen at that point. I concluded by saying that Brawl Pokemon + Mewtwo had a lot going for them, and it would just be impossible to predict what the shakeup would be with any accuracy. The three main candidates I had seen for the job were Zoroark, Victini, and Meowth, but it looks like that didn't pan out, eh?

How does Greninja affect different characters? Well, it does seem to send the message that long-term importance isn't as important as recency and promotion.. but that's misleading. I'd argue that his confirmation only affects the chances of other Pokemon. I still see Jigglypuff as a near shoo-in (~90% chance), but I really don't see more than one other Pokemon after her, and I'd say that spot probably exists. I'd argue that Mewtwo outcompetes Squirtle, Ivysaur, Pichu, and any potential newcomer for that last slot; if anything, the Direct raises his chances by showing us the Pokemon Trainer's split and his no-show in the Pokeball showcase.
This one?


Okay, I've had Miiverse rate Palutena, Mewtwo, Ridley, K Rool, Ghirahim, and Bandana Dee.
I didn't ask them for want.
Only chance. Scores will be coming soon. I'll ask for other characters later.

EDIT: Actually, I'll ask for Chrom too. But then that will be it.
Miiverse's very platform makes hosting a RTC game there impossible. Its userbase... makes it a bad idea, anyway. It's nearly impossible to start an intelligent conversation there; either the post gets dropped out too quickly or little kids hijack your post.
So @ Groose Groose you got any clue as to when we'll start nominations again? After the next rating of previous satisfaction? Cause we can't get enough satisfaction.
There's a certain mystical cat I'd like to rate, one that will need one especially after the Direct.
I'd like to go through with Paulkagebein's idea of rating the characters at the top of the chance charts before getting back to the groove of things. Nothing is near final yet; I'll be thinking deeper on things tomorrow when I have more time and a rested mind.

DAY OVER

Foe's Greninja fainted! Mewtwo gained 9,001 experience!
 
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Groose

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Greninja Satisfaction: 69.51%
Greninja's satisfaction is the lowest we've seen of anyone so far, yet his hope is not yet lost. Since we will be rating all previously revealed newcomers in satisfaction today, Greninja could very well still make a splash and place higher on our satisfaction ratings. Without further ado, get your satisfaction ratings going! Also, you will be able to predict how Andy, Waddle Dee, and Kamek will do in tomorrow's rating over overrated and underrated characters.

Now, I'd like to ask one final time what you guys want with the nominations (which will resume tomorrow). While I will be taking your feedback into account here, I may not choose the most popular option if I feel that better arguments have been made for another solutions. So far, the proposed things are:
1) Wipe the nominations clean and start fresh in order to allow us to prioritize things based on recent events.
2) Before heading back to the nominations, rate the popular/high score characters again because they need to be rated after the Direct.
3) Leave the nominations alone and carry on with the characters on that list; people can start nominating characters the Direct affected as normal.
4) Completely overhaul the nominations system in the future to reflect only what people vote for the day before we rate someone.
 
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colder_than_ice

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Villager: 23% - He simply doesn't appeal to me.

Megaman: 72% - He definitely deserves to be playable more than any other third party character. Unfortunately I've never been a Megaman fan.

Wii Fit Trainer: 70% - I've lost a little bit of interest, but I will continue to support Acrobat-Ninja-Zen-Amazon-Albino-Zombie-Mannequin regardless.

Rosalina: 85% - She's the best possible choice for a Mario newcomer in my opinion.

Little Mac: 84% - Who doesn't love Little Mac.

Predictions
Waddle Dee: 30%
Kamek: 0.7%
Andy: 14%
 
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Pacack

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I definitely feel like it'd be best to rerate a ton of characters before before resuming nominations, since the direct shook everything up.
 

Gunla

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@ Groose Groose
I'd prefer option 4, preceded by option 3, so Fire Emblem Week doesn't happen twice again.
It's also a lot better as we can go to doing what we want to do rather than have bad rating days.
IE: We tally nominations for only one day or something at a time.

Satisfaction:
Mega Man- 100%- Got less salty over X. I'm glad about it.
Wii Fit Trainer- 100%- Only one of three I have called so far. Very glad, she looks fun to play.
Villager- 100%- Playstyle is amazing after Direct. Specifically that Final Smash.
Rosetta- 100%- Smash needed more Carl Clover. I approve of Puppets.
Little Mac- 100%- Need I explain more?

I've been very satisfied by all of Smash's newcomer choices this time around, much better than Brawl's.
 
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Starbound

Worlds Apart, But Still Together.
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Jan 31, 2012
Messages
4,083
Location
Canada
I'd prefer option 4. Being able to handle troll nominations is a major plus of the concept. Characters that people want to rerate will inevitably show up first on this system given how it works.

Satisfaction:
Villager: 80%. I think he's the least unique of the characters we've seen so far, but I still like the character.
Mega Man: 50%. Meeeeeeeeeeeeeh
Wii Fit Trainer: 85%. FEEL THE BURN. Looks super fun.
Rosalina: 100%. Best character ever.
Little Mac: 0%. Direct only proved to me that he's still bland.
 
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Smasher 101

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 21, 2013
Messages
1,046
Location
USA
3DS FC
0877-3649-6314
Switch FC
SW-7628-2111-0913
Villager: 100%
Mega Man: 100%
Wii Fit Trainer: 25%
Rosalina: 60%
Little Mac: 100%


My opinions on Villager, Mega Man, Mac (all additions that I am very happy about) and Rosalina (a suggestion I disliked, but warmed up to rather quickly after her confirmation) have not changed, but I've become more disappointed in WFT. I generally like surprises, but she felt a little too...unusual of a choice. She's also still the only newcomer that I'm not that interested in fighting as. Sorry.
 
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