Ranking moves in Characters (Round 21: Discussing Down-Special)

[Funbot28]

Ok so with overwhelming support, we will be moving on from specials for now into tilts, starting off with Forward-Tilt.

Discuss and an initial list will come up tommorow.

 

[Jexulus]

Mewtwo's is trash tier. Pretty sure it's literally the only move we never, ever use because of how Dtilt is the same thing but better. All of his other options are worth using over Ftilt, and no other character would want it in place of their own, as far as I'm aware.

Someone else will likely explain in more detail, but I personally hate it 'cuz you can't swag with it. So bad it's bad.

 

[ARGHETH]

Marth's is near the top, obviously.
Robin's is...okay? It's mainly used when the opponent's right outside of jab range...I'd put it around mid C.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Robin's is very mediocre. Low damage, low knockback, piss-poor range, but pretty fast and decent enough as a "get-off-me" tool. Probably C tier.

Rosalina's is godlike. It's pretty similar to Robin's, but the hitbox is HUGE. Easily A tier, B at worst.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ike's is... in a spot between a normal tilt and a smash attack? Or like a weaker smash attack really. Massive disjointed range, can be angled, nice out of a retreating PP, no sweet/sour spot stuff to worry about, hits like a truck... kinda on the slower start up side due to the whole "is basically a smash attack in disguise" thing.

Low A/Top B ish range. Most likely top of B unless there are a lot of crap ftilts and I've just forgotten about that. A bunch of utility Ftilts probably beat it, probably a few ftilts that have a better speed:knockback ratio, but its pretty solid.

 

[Airpoizon]

If Roys isn't one of the best I don't know what I'd do, kills around 100%, fast, VERY little end lag, I cant see why it wouldn't be one of the best except for the sour spot at the tip.

 

[Lorde]

the hitboxes on rosalinda's ftilt are not "huge" wtf

there's like 0 disjoint on the entirety of the move

luma's version of the move isn't that great either iirc
it has big kbg, but so do basically all of luma's moves

i don't think luma's nor rosalinda's combos into anything

it's not a bad move, but it's definitely not amazing

i'm not a rosalinda main, but dtilt seems to be better than ftilt in like every way


as for good ftilts, lucas' is cool, sheik's is obviously super good, diddy's is gud, etc.

 

[Seraphim.]

Roy's Ftilt is decent, Frame 8, 12.5/9/8 damage on the Hilt/Middle/Tip respectively. PP Ftilt is good for spacing and catching rolls other than that it's primarily a kill move.

Negatives are that the move lacks range and has 3 different hitboxes you have to deal with, although getting the middle hitbox is very rare. Not sure where I would rank the move personally, maybe C.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Most F-tilts are mediocre pokes with good range but enough endlag that you will be punished on block or whiff. Trying to think of legitimately good ones.

I'm pretty sure WFT's F-tilt is her best move on the ground. It's hitbox in front of her is not infuriatingly small and has some disjoint. It's only 2 frames slower than a jab at 6 startup and more effectively gets people away from her and back across the stage where she can continue to zone at her end. It can also kill near a ledge at about 110%, with more knockback than her Bair. It also sets up tech chase scenarios that she'll cover with Sun Salutation as early as 10%, which is exactly what the back hit of jab 1 is good for at mid %. The back hit of F-tilt doesn't seem to true combo directly into anything, but the potential is there for another turnaround Ftilt, Nair, or even a quick header. It's hitbox is not as good as in front.

Roy's is above average. It does indeed combo from Jab at low %, and at frame 8 the sweetspot kills better than any of his aerials at 100% at a ledge.

Samus' I like a lot. It reaches farther than Marth's with the same speed and doesn't extend her hurtbox for long. It's not as good as it used to be for locking after the KB increase on the weak hits, but not getting punished for landing the close hitboxes past low % is a definite boon. Depending on which hitbox connects and at what range, there's a ton of potential for setting up tech chases with charge shot. And angling the move reduces the range if you want to increase the odds of a heavier hit for any reason, like killing at about 115% at the ledge.

Little Mac is a high up there. Frame 4 and 12% total damage. It's killing power is very high - 95% at the ledge. It's first hit has annoying, fixed knockback that's not optimised for airborne targets, so using this on somebody landing often forces the second hit to miss. Very evident on the Dtilt to Ftilt 0% combo.

Bowser's could totally be a contender for top, if not one below. Frame 10 startup and It reaches just a few pixels less than Marth's Ftilt but with a little more endlag. 12% damage is on the lower end of his 9-24% moveset, and it kills at 110% at the ledge. It's primary niche is for beating incoming short hopped aerials (bowser's arm is intangible during hit frames), and angling it downward with proper spacing will hit low ledge hangers like Ganondorf. It's 5 active frames is good for punishing the 2 frame ledge grab window. I stress tested it however, and it's not 100% consistent on every character's recovery like some Bowsers will claim. Using it anyway to try is still fine because Bowser wants to sit at the edge and cover ledge options with fortress for free damage and sending them back out for another try.

Ike is a slower Bowser's with the same range that will kill 5% earlier. It doesn't reach as low under the ledge, but the high angle seems effective, just wish it had more active frames

I think the vast majority of characters would consider trading their Ftilt for Ganon's. Frame 10 startup with an Absurdly low launch angle and kills at 95% at the ledge. It's just not especially good on Ganon specifically. It has less reach than jab, a lot more endlag, and his movement stats do him no favors for getting close enough. It's clearly a move designed to set up edgeguards and Ganon's ledgeguard game is surprisingly good for a character that can't afford to go far offstage. It's best niche is killing certain characters early with bad recoveries, like another Ganon or Doc. If you don't intend for that sort of kill, Dtilt outclasses it for combos and more range.

I'm very curious to know which Ftilt Pit mains prefer. Dark Pit's won't kill with its reduced knockback, but the weak hit will lock and force edge slips, and they are severely lacking in moves that can do that. Pit's will kill at about 115% at the ledge when spaced, is as slow as ganon's, and the move reaches further than Marth's. Good, but could be better.

Edit: Oh yeah, and Pit's F-tilt has as much startup as Fsmash, so it's kill potential is less notable. And only 8 frames safer on block when spaced compared to Fsmash

 

[Ffamran]

Most F-tilts are mediocre pokes with good range but enough endlag that you will be punished on block or whiff. Trying to think of legitimately good ones.

Fox's? As a check kick, it doesn't have range like Captain Falcon, Falco, Ryu, Samus, or ZSS's, but it has the lowest recovery at 16 frames. 16 recovery frames puts it on par with most jab recovery with Fox's jab 1 being one. It doesn't do a lot of damage, especially un-angled, but it's got pretty good knockback; 10 base makes it safe on-hit at low percents (not to mention its low recovery meaning Fox can just repeatedly Ftilt you at low percents) and its 110 growth means it will do good knockback at higher percents. Combine it with Fox's ground speed and having a hitbox that's on his body allowing for pivot Ftilt shenanigans, his Ftilt is abusive... but that's only really because the other Ftilts aren't that great.

Sonic's is pretty good, but he has better moves to use, so... Mega Man's going to be weird to talk about considering his jab, Ftilt, and Nair are pretty much the same moves, but jab's stationary, Ftilt's ground movement-based, and Nair's aerial movement-based. Similar case with Ryu. Do we place them as a whole or separate them? The latter's kind of not possible with the tier list maker. Could just Photoshop it right in, though...

Also, how do you, Zapp or anyone wanting to answer this, feel about DK's? It's kind of like Bowser's, but weaker, with 4 more frames of recovery, and much higher I-frames for some inexplicable "DK has I-frames on pretty much everything" reason. He's a gorilla! That fur ain't gonna protect **** compared to Bowser's scales and spiked shell!

On Falco, his Ftilt has a weird disadvantage because of the lack of any base knockback. Despite it doing 9%, its low -- relatively speaking here -- 20 recovery frames, and despite its fairly good range, it's actually unsafe on-hit at low percents.

Spoiler: Crap Ffamran pretends to know about

At 0%, on Mario, it would only do 9 frames of hit stun. Fox's would do 12 frames of hit stun un-angled. (Hopefully, I didn't screw up on-hit advantages; it's just hit stun - recovery, right?) It would be -4 on-hit to Falco's -11. Falco's doesn't become positive on-hit until Mario's at 40% when it does 21 frames of hit stun. Fox's becomes positive on-hit at 20% when it does 17 frames of hit stun.

Since Falco's jab is a pile of crap, Falco's Ftilt and Dtilt are his go-to options to poke people, but as Dtilt only hits low, Ftilt has to fill in for everything else. For the record, Falco's Ftilt has not really changed since Melee. It does the same damage, knockback, launches in the same angle, and even has the same animation, but polished up. The only "major" difference is that since Brawl, it's frame 6 not frame 5 like in Melee. Also, it's slightly slower in recovery, 1 frame slower, per game. The problem of being unsafe on-hit at low percents never came up since Falco never really had to use Ftilt at low percents. He had jab, Dtilt, Nair, Fair, Bair, Dair, Blaster, and Shine to do all of that. By the time he used Ftilt, you would be at least above 70% in Melee and Brawl. Not the case in Smash 4 where he usually won't be able to get in to do damage, so he'll tack on as many stray hits which if it's with Ftilt, could hurt him.

At the same time, this doesn't make it a terrible move. Compared to Dr. Mario, Luigi, and Mario's, it's got lower startup, higher damage, and lower recovery. Luigi's does the same hit stun as Falco's at 0%, but it's worse when he has 6 more frames of recovery than him. At 0% on Mario, it also does 9 frames of hit stun, so it would be -17 on-hit. 62% when it does 27 frames of hit stun seems like when it would be positive. For Mario, 0% would do 11 frames of hit stun, about the same as Fox's, but Mario's got 25 recovery frames. -14 on-hit. At 60%, it would do 26 frames of hit stun making it positive on-hit. Doc's in a similar bind as Mario, but has 1 more active frame making his recovery 24 frames. Same hit stun at 0%, but -13 instead. At 50%, it would do 25 frames of hit stun making it positive on-hit. The Mario Bros. plus Doc would be better of using jab or any move instead.

This isn't limited to them or Ftilts. There's plenty of moves that are unsafe on-hit at low-percents to even mid-percents for one reason or another. In most cases, they're just not doing enough knockback. At the same time, you have to factor in knockback. Moves can be negative on-hit, but send people flying so far that they're safe or in the case of projectiles, they're already hitting far enough that's not possible to exploit the negative on-hit. Also, if the number's low enough like Fox's -4 on-hit at 0%, it might not matter. Oh, and there's weight differences too which I figure people should already know about; Fox's Ftilt won't be as safe on-hit at 0% on Bowser than it would on Jigglypuff.

I consider Falco's Ftilt as "the standard check kick Ftilt". Above that, Fox and Samus would be the notably better / good check kick Ftilts. Below that, (Dr.) Mario and Luigi, I suppose. If they're okay, they don't do anything extraordinary like Fox and Samus's, but don't seem under-tuned, then they're just going to fall under average like Falco's, so Capt., Greninja, and ZSS's -- those 3 arguably have better Ftilts since they're at least safe on-hit at low percents, especially ZSS's since it packs 30 base, but for Capt. and Greninja, have slightly higher startup. Considering that, ZSS's might be above Falco's and with Fox and Samus's.

 

[HoSmash4]

Sheik f tilt = god tier. Frame 5, so anything -13 or more OOS unspaced gets punished by a ftilt leading to any sheik combo. One of sheiks kill setups, good horizontal and vertical range. Amazing. At the same time ftilt is very hard to punish unless you do it twice on shield. When people say sheiks frame data is godlike ftilt is one of the main reasons

 

[TriTails]

Luigi's F-tilt is bad.

It has little range with little knockback that will get you punished on hit at low percents and the kb is not notable at higher percents. It has a lot of end lag too. Notable stuffs include frame 5 startup and jab locks, but jab is frame 3 at worst if we have to turn it around and the whole jab combo still deals more damage than F-tilt, and it's very rare to jab lock with this when Fireball is an option to use from afar (Although, if you hit the jab lock with F-tilt, ok that's nice). There are more much better F-tilts and personally I'd rrank it near the bottom. D at best probably, maybe even E.

 

[Lavani]

Ftilts will probably be B~C heavy, as mentioned most are just pretty unremarkable pokes.

are probably among the best
is probably the worst

I'd consider for A, it has good disjoint and angled upward has the same KB as Greninja fsmash but with substantially less endlag.

also probably A? Ike has good disjoint and power and iirc is safe spaced, Ganondorf's has strong KB with a great angle but I don't think it's as remarkable when it isn't hitting.

I don't agree with ftilt being amazing and think it's probably in the running for her worst move, but it'd probably work in B anyway just because of how unremarkable most ftilts are. Rosa ftilt pretty much only gets used out of pivot, mainly to back off after Luma jab1 jab2 gets blocked, dtilt otherwise does the same jobs better and more safely.

light ftilt has large disjoint and heavy ftilt breaks shields, also probably A

Wouldn't put higher than B because of horrid Z-axis issues; the first active frame is partially in the background already and can whiff some characters, the other active frames effectively aren't even there unless you're on a 2D stage. Probably shouldn't be lower either because of range and disjoint though.

 

[FullMoon]

Greninja's is a good spacing tool because it has good range and also has low-ish endlag and can also be used for jab locking after an unteched B-Air at low percentages which can lead into crazy Greninja stuff but is pretty unremarkable overall. Dunno where this would place it, B? C?

 

[adom4]

Ftilts will probably be B~C heavy, as mentioned most are just pretty unremarkable pokes.

are probably among the best
is probably the worst

I'd consider for A, it has good disjoint and angled upward has the same KB as Greninja fsmash but with substantially less endlag.

also probably A? Ike has good disjoint and power and iirc is safe spaced, Ganondorf's has strong KB with a great angle but I don't think it's as remarkable when it isn't hitting.

I don't agree with ftilt being amazing and think it's probably in the running for her worst move, but it'd probably work in B anyway just because of how unremarkable most ftilts are. Rosa ftilt pretty much only gets used out of pivot, mainly to back off after Luma jab1 jab2 gets blocked, dtilt otherwise does the same jobs better and more safely.

light ftilt has large disjoint and heavy ftilt breaks shields, also probably A

Wouldn't put higher than B because of horrid Z-axis issues; the first active frame is partially in the background already and can whiff some characters, the other active frames effectively aren't even there unless you're on a 2D stage. Probably shouldn't be lower either because of range and disjoint though.

I may be a bit biased but i honestly believe that Ganon's F-tilt is worthy of S tier, it's a serious contender for the best kill tilt in the game & even if it doesn't kill it's absolutely brutal at the ledge due to the angle, plus it's fantastic as a pivot tilt & it can be hit after a flame choke on 31 characters (It does rely on them to miss the tech though).

 

[TheColorfulOrca]

Some good FTilts (in my opinion)

-Sheik: We all know why
-WFT: Surprise kill move, hits on both sides.
-Lucas: Good damage on sweetspot, sourspot can ground lock.
-Bayonetta: Does 15% if all hits connect, can cancel first hit into other moves.
-Link: Kills absurdly early for a FTilt, hits above him.
-Little Mac: Great poke, good damage.

Some bad FTilts

-Palutena: So much endlag, easily punishable.
-Mewtwo: Completely overshadowed by DTilt.

Hope this helped!

 

[John12346]

I'd just like to get some notables out of the way.

Should be A Tier. It's an excellent move, hitting on both sides, coming out on Frame 6, having some combo power, and some considerable kill power. It's even relatively safe on block, when spaced. However, it's held back by its general lack of disjoint, both in front of her and below her. The former, combined with the fact Wii Fit doesn't lean very into her move makes it somewhat of a lackluster move to just use in neutral. Meanwhile, the latter causes it to whiff on all manner of small opponents, and there can be some surprising situations where this happens because some characters' landing/roll animations put them too low to be hit by the move. It's too inconsistent and frustrating to be an S Tier Ftilt, regrettably.

Should be A Tier. It's a rather long range poke, with an impressive 8 frames of startup for the range it's packing. It's decent on damage and knockback, and seems to lack a deadzone which is prevalent with a lot of sword characters (it hits a little behind him). It's a good Ftilt, but there isn't really anything super amazing about it. It doesn't seem to have any combo potential, either. I would also mention that all feasible uses of Ftilt are outclassed by Corrin's Jab and Dtilt, but it seems that we're taking these moves into consideration in a vacuum, so I'll leave that point alone.

Is an obvious S Tier. In addition to everything we already know it has going for it, it, in theory, puts the DIDDY KONG matchup in his favor. You cannot overlook that.

 

[PK Gaming]

I'd just like to get some notables out of the way.

Should be A Tier. It's an excellent move, hitting on both sides, coming out on Frame 6, having some combo power, and some considerable kill power. It's even relatively safe on block, when spaced. However, it's held back by its general lack of disjoint, both in front of her and below her. The former, combined with the fact Wii Fit doesn't lean very into her move makes it somewhat of a lackluster move to just use in neutral. Meanwhile, the latter causes it to whiff on all manner of small opponents, and there can be some surprising situations where this happens because some characters' landing/roll animations put them too low to be hit by the move. It's too inconsistent and frustrating to be an S Tier Ftilt, regrettably.

Should be B Tier. It's a rather long range poke, with an impressive 8 frames of startup for the range it's packing. It's decent on damage and knockback, and seems to lack a deadzone which is prevalent with a lot of sword characters (it hits a little behind him). It's a good Ftilt, but there isn't really anything super amazing about it. It doesn't seem to have any combo potential, either. I would also mention that all feasible uses of Ftilt are outclassed by Corrin's Jab and Dtilt, but it seems that we're taking these moves into consideration in a vacuum, so I'll leave that point alone.

Is an obvious S Tier. In addition to everything we already know it has going for it, it, in theory, puts the DIDDY KONG matchup in his favor. You cannot overlook that.

Addendum to this

Corrin's Ftilt is a combo tool, and it's outclassed by Dragon Lunge, not Jab/Dtilt. Corrin doesn't really have any reason to use it, but it's definitely pretty good in a vacuum.

 

[BJN39]

I was summoned? Read this thingy

Right off the bat:
- Top row of percents are various percents...which should be obvious. They're the victim percents.
- The four numbers in each box refer to: ##F/##F -> the number of frames of hitstun induced (Bowser's weight/Jigglypuff's weight). +##/+## -> The frame advantage Bayonetta has upon FAF of her move in question. (Again, using Bowser/Jiggs)
- Due to how hitstun works, any hitstun of 40F or higher can be cancelled with airdodge, (Cancelled on frame 41, as though it had a FAF of 41 but only for airdodges) thus, the "+##" cap off at every move once they reach 40F of hitstun. HOWEVER, you cannot jump out of htistun until "Hitstun ends" thus the "##F/##F" still counts up. By doing a little maths you can figure out when the attacks can be cancelled with jumps at higher percents.
- ALL NUMBERS CONSIDER ONLY THE FIRST HITFRAME OF THE MOVES CONCERNED. But doing the math to get the hit advantage on the second third etc frame is not difficult. Just add +1 to the advantage for every frame later of a hitbox.
- For application: know how many frames it takes to use x/y/z attack and figure out if it is an applicable followup (Also considering if a move does not knock too far by the time it works!)

Move stuffs:
- Ftilt1 "65/25"/"45/25"/"50/15" refer to three different hitboxes on Ftilt1 which all have to be considered. 50/15 is the only relevant hitbox versus aerial targets. 65/25 and 45/25 are the inner and outer spacing-wise hitboxes versus grounded targets. As you can see, only one of them guarantees a grab followup. fyi the numbers refer to each hitbox's base kb and kb growth.

|000%|025%|050%|075%|100%|125%|150%
Ftilt1 62/25|25F/25F +6/+6|26F/26F +7/+7|27F/28F +8/+9|28F/29F +9/+10|29F/30F +10/+11|29F/31F +10/+12|30F/32F +11/+13
Ftilt1 45/25|18F/18F -1/-1 |19F/20F 0/+1|20F/21F +1/+2|21F/22F +2/+3|22F/23F +3/+4|23F/24F +4/+5|23F/25F +4/+6
Ftilt1 50/15 |20F/20F +1/+1|20F/20F +1/+1|21F/21F +2/+2|21F/22F +2/+3|22F/22F +3/+3|22F/23F +3/+4|23F/24F +4/+5

tl;dr Bayonetta's Ftilt1 can catch a few guarantees at higher percent, but spacing is pretty strict. Target must be grounded, and close enough to land the inner-spaced hitbox.

Edit: just fyi going back to the source post for the quote includes this hitstun data for basically the rest of her moveset.



Also just throwing it out there that Zelda's Ftilt is a meh Ftilt.

Its damage on the tipper is decent, KO power is decent. Range is nice.

However the good damage and KO power is exclusive to the (albeit not difficult to land) tipper. The move is largely a worse version of other similar Ftilts even after the 1.1.5 buffs. Bowser's is basically her's with no sourspot, massive hitboxes, and invincibility on his arm. Marth's similarly KO's ~ same, has even better range, and large hitbox arc (Zelda must select a direction angle for a narrow hit zone) and Marth's hits faster, ends faster, and is a lot more disjointed. In addition while slower, Link's KOs even better, has a large hit arc, and ends way sooner.

Not to mention the HUGE blindspot right in front of Zelda during Ftilt. Literally everybody has known about it since 3DS era, still not fixed.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Dr. Mario's Ftilt is objectively better than Mario's. It's not by much but it is. It has 1 more active frame (already makes it better) and it does more damage.

Basically wherever you put Mario's, put Doc's one spot above it. That's all I got.

Still a bad move for both of them in most circumstances (incredibly niche use) but if we're looking at which of the moves is better for the two...

 

[arbustopachon]

https://gfycat.com/RadiantMelodicCrocodile

Zard's ftilt. The move comes on frame 11, lasts untill frame 13 and the faf is frame 43 making it one of the slower tilts. Swetspot deals 11% and kills at around 110% at the edge and sourspot deals 7%.
I'm thinking C for it, the move is slow and the sourspot sucks but the sweetspot is pretty good. The move has huge range and its partialy disjointed wich is nice.
Also thanks to its range, sweetspot ftilt can be kinda hard to punish on shield.
Ftilt can also be angled up or down to act as mediocre antiair or an edgeguard option.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

the hitboxes on rosalinda's ftilt are not "huge" wtf

there's like 0 disjoint on the entirety of the move

luma's version of the move isn't that great either iirc
it has big kbg, but so do basically all of luma's moves

i don't think luma's nor rosalinda's combos into anything

it's not a bad move, but it's definitely not amazing

i'm not a rosalinda main, but dtilt seems to be better than ftilt in like every way


as for good ftilts, lucas' is cool, sheik's is obviously super good, diddy's is gud, etc.

Holy crap, I think I was getting ftilt confused with dtilt. Lol, that's embarrassing.

That being said, Rosa's ftilt is still fairly fast and has decent enough range. Probably on the upper end of ftilts, at least.

 

[Kofu]

Game & Watch's FTilt is decent. It hits on frame 10 and lasts through frame 17. The clean hit does 10% and kills reasonably well, and the late hit does 4% and can be used as a slight wall. It's got 20 frames of cooldown, which honestly isn't bad for the move's range, disjoint, and power. I could see it as a B-tier FTilt.

Villager's FTilt is okay. It hits on frame 8 and continues through frame 11. Damage is 9%, not that notable, but it makes a good grounded combo finisher or get-off-me move. 25 frames of cooldown is pretty bad, though. One notable feature about the move is that it has decent vertical range as the umbrella expands out. Probably C-tier.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Also, how do you, Zapp or anyone wanting to answer this, feel about DK's? It's kind of like Bowser's, but weaker, with 4 more frames of recovery, and much higher I-frames for some inexplicable "DK has I-frames on pretty much everything" reason. He's a gorilla! That fur ain't gonna protect **** compared to Bowser's scales and spiked shell!

As much range as Marth's but no exceptional killing power like the other's I mentioned. It doesn't lock for as long as Dtilt will but I know from testing that DK's F-tilt is the slowest move in the game (strictly in terms of total frames or FAF) to lock an opponent up to three times. DK's got the most locking moves of any character, but F-tilt reaches the furthest for this application. His F-tilt's I-frames are a head scratcher with how it's a move to hit somebody in just one direction, but he has an arm that's intangible behind him after swinging. And apparently he loses the excess when angling high? I couldn't tell you how a DK main values F-tilt, but it's clearly got some strengths. I just doubt it deserves a top tier slot when we're likely reserving that for F-tilts that kill, or set up combos like Sheik.

I wouldn't be so quick to admire Mega Man's Ftilt. If he's walking, he loses the cannon hitbox that is largely responsible for making the move safe on hit. And the move has too much endlag in general to follow up on the projectile, so I don't value the ability to walk forward. It's a dead giveaway for a grab or Utilt. Neither of which should ever work since getting hit by a lemon is only like 2 frames of hitstun (0 hitlag which is awful for a projectile) and minimum 4 frames of blocking on a non perfect shield. Still, buster mode as a whole can be potent and has far more utility than the sea of bad F-tilts. You can't compare it directly to others in the list, but an S tier placement is kind of reasonable.

In general, if your Ftilt competes directly with your jab combo for damage and range, it's a good indication that you've got one of the meh F-tilts

I like Olimar's. It's a frame 15 attack (slower than his frame 11 F-smash), with 20 frames of endlag. To put that in perspective, Marth, and Roy who have over 30, and most other kill Ftilts I've mentioned are at least 25. It's his only move that will kill without pikmin, and it does that job well at about 110% at the ledge. Link's is very similar in startup and endlag, but with better disjoint and kills at 90% at the ledge, which probably makes it the best at this - beating Ganon and Little Mac at 95. Except for Shulk with Smash Art equipped. Shulk without any Art is at 100 at the ledge, but Smash Art pushes the range down to 85. Beyond good killing power, Shulk's reaches as far as Marth's with similar endlag. But I think it's a move best used in Buster Mode for insane 18% damage on hit and better safety on block.

Dedede's is good. Just a few pixels further than Samus which should make it the farthest Ftilt in the game with complete disjoint. Generally good for covering landings. The one setup I know is Dthrow to Bair to Ftilt to cover their landing if they don't burn double jump. 9-11% damage and won't kill. Would definitely put this a tier above bad F-tilts for the range alone, but I don't think it's anywhere near the top. And Wario is worth mention with 105% at the ledge (no angle) which beats his Bair. He really needs it with how slow and laggy his Fsmash is. And with the right spacing it reaches Ganondorf hanging at the ledge, giving it Bowser's Ftilt utility for catching 2 frames ledge snaps with its 4 active frames

 

[Shollyboster]

I would defintitely put 'Dorf's f-tilt at S Tier. Low startup, medium endlag, and a great edgeguard/punish move. I think Lucas's f-tilt is pretty underrated as well. Down angled it can jab lock if spaced correctly, and is good as a spacing tool and replacement for the comfort of a smash attack. It is very good if you want to get your opponent off you but don't want to stale a smash.

Edit: Spelling

As much range as Marth's but no exceptional killing power like the other's I mentioned. It doesn't lock for as long as Dtilt will but I know from testing that DK's F-tilt is the slowest move in the game (strictly in terms of total frames or FAF) to lock an opponent up to three times. DK's got the most locking moves of any character, but F-tilt reaches the furthest for this application. His F-tilt's I-frames are a head scratcher with how it's a move to hit somebody in just one direction, but he has an arm that's intangible behind him after swinging. And apparently he loses the excess when angling high? I couldn't tell you how a DK main values F-tilt, but it's clearly got some strengths. I just doubt it deserves a top tier slot when we're likely reserving that for F-tilts that kill, or set up combos like Sheik.

I wouldn't be so quick to admire Mega Man's Ftilt. If he's walking, he loses the cannon hitbox that is largely responsible for making the move safe on hit. And the move has too much endlag in general to follow up on the projectile, so I don't value the ability to walk forward. It's a dead giveaway for a grab or Utilt. Neither of which should ever work since getting hit by a lemon is only like 2 frames of hitstun (0 hitlag which is awful for a projectile) and minimum 4 frames of blocking on a non perfect shield. Still, buster mode as a whole can be potent and has far more utility than the sea of bad F-tilts. You can't compare it directly to others in the list, but an S tier placement is kind of reasonable.

In general, if your Ftilt competes directly with your jab combo for damage and range, it's a good indication that you've got one of the meh F-tilts

I like Olimar's. It's a frame 15 attack (slower than his frame 11 F-smash), with 20 frames of endlag. To put that in perspective, Marth, and Roy who have over 30, and most other kill Ftilts I've mentioned are at least 25. It's his only move that will kill without pikmin, and it does that job well at about 110% at the ledge. Link's is very similar in startup and endlag, but with better disjoint and kills at 90% at the ledge, which probably makes it the best at this - beating Ganon and Little Mac at 95. Except for Shulk with Smash Art equipped. Shulk without any Art is at 100 at the ledge, but Smash Art pushes the range down to 85. Beyond good killing power, Shulk's reaches as far as Marth's with similar endlag. But I think it's a move best used in Buster Mode for insane 18% damage on hit and better safety on block.

Dedede's is good. Just a few pixels further than Samus which should make it the farthest Ftilt in the game with complete disjoint. Generally good for covering landings. The one setup I know is Dthrow to Bair to Ftilt to cover their landing if they don't burn double jump. 9-11% damage and won't kill. Would definitely put this a tier above bad F-tilts for the range alone, but I don't think it's anywhere near the top. And Wario is worth mention with 105% at the ledge (no angle) which beats his Bair. He really needs it with how slow and laggy his Fsmash is. And with the right spacing it reaches Ganondorf hanging at the ledge, giving it Bowser's Ftilt utility for catching 2 frames ledge snaps with its 4 active frames

I think the other mass appeal for Mega Man's f-tilt is the jab locking ability. So many other characters struggle with locking because there is low range for their jab; they feel pressured to run and end up dash attacking. Mega Man players don't feel this pressure because of the range and safe options it provides.

While Ganondorf's up air doesn't combo into as much, it is still a very powerful and fast up air that can jab lock from its weak hit at low percents.

Something you forgot to mention was how 'Dorf's up air is good when people are trying to edgeguard against him. It has good range and can hit characters on stage when used on Final Destination. Same with Falcon but only at higher percentages.

Why are Roy and Marth's Nair's so low? I would argue that both are at least B-Tier Nairs (Personally I think A, but I'm not gonna shoot that high). Both Nairs are very fast moves with good range, damage, and low landing lag. Roy's Nair can combo into many of his other moves (hit one can combo into Jab and D-Tilt at most percents and some KO moves like D-Smash and Blazer at later Percents, while hit 2 can combo into Fair) and Marth's Nair has ridiculous KO Power when tippered and the first hit can combo into several of his ground moves like Roy (albiet not as reliably due to less hitstun + Higher Landing lag than Roy's Nair. When spaced, both moves are also fairly safe on Shield.

I think Roy's nair should be higher, yes. But Marth's nair is very situational (i.e. When the opponent is in the air) and Roy's nair can be used very liberally with minimum punishes. Due to Roy's fast falling his nair is much safer, and it is much easier to hit both hits. I will give you that Marth's nair has good range, but simply isn't his safest option in most situations.

Edit: Masonomace sorry about that, just started this account today. I think I've finally gotten it all down. I lurked for several years but finally got around to registering.

 

[Masonomace]

Shollyboster careful on the quadruple posting. Watch out for that by editing your singular message to include multiple quotes & replies next time.
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's Ftilt kinda goes in the same category as the "Ftilts that get outclassed by their respective Dtilts", but on its own it's not that bad.

• The move still has good range
• The Blade hitbox of Ftilt is more dominant than the Beam hitbox, so that's more likely to hit you unless you're trying to super-space the move. The Blade deals 13.5% while the Beam deals 12%.
• It's active for 2 frames with a startup of frame 12-13.
• Endlag is 43 total frames being able to act on frame 44
• BKB being 30 & KBG being 92 are fairly high.
• Move cannot be angled up or down, so it has a problem of whiffing on small or crouching hurtboxes.
• Is a decent kill option in Vanilla, but kills early in Smash art or is safe on-block in Buster. Speed art pivot Ftilt is amazing.

The move in a vacuum is decent but not as great as it could be. Monado arts ofc augment the move for different reasons, so I'd rank the move to be C or B tier. Buster Ftilt would be S tier though.

EDIT:

Spoiler: Here's hitbubbles of Shulk's Ftilt from Meshima's video

Meshima's video

 

[Fenny]

Bayo's Ftilt is a combo tool if cancelled before the second hit, but you rarely find yourself using it for that purpose since Dtilt and Utilt are superior alternatives, both being faster and more effective at starting off combos. Otherwise, a decent tool for making space. Probably B tier to be honest.

 

[Funbot28]

Ok so this is the initial list for Forward-Tilt:

Spoiler: Forward-Tilt

Was hard to create this list, so I am sure there is a lot to discuss upon

 

[arbustopachon]

i love how palutena's is F tier and not E tier.

 

[Lavani]

A -> S for aforementioned reasons.
B -> A, it isn't worse than the likes of Corrin.
Maybe B -> A? Pretty sure it's not worse than Corrin's either, but I'm not entirely sure how much stronger Marth's tipper is by comparison. nevermind lol
D -> B, quick and largely disjointed poke.
should probably move up to at least C, it's disjointed with low endlag that makes it safe on shield starting from mid% aura. Dunno specifically how useful it is to the character, but it doesn't seem like a bad button to press, especially considering how short-ranged and/or laggy most of Lucario's moves are.

I don't know anything about and had to try pretty hard to even remember what the animation was, would like to know what justifies it in B.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Maybe B -> A? Pretty sure it's not worse than Corrin's either, but I'm not entirely sure how much stronger Marth's tipper is by comparison.

From my thread comparing the KO% between Marth and Lucina...

TILTS

Forward/Side Tilt:

vs. : 127% (tippered) 248% (non-tippered)
vs. : 147% (tippered) 288% (non-tippered)
vs. : 169% (tippered) 329% (non-tippered)


vs. : 170%
vs. : 200%
vs. : 229%

 

[TheColorfulOrca]

Ness is too high IMO, very average FTilt and should probably move down to C.

Also, why is Lucario so low? His FTilt seems pretty good to me, definitely better than the likes of Mewtwo and Luigi.

 

[Shollyboster]

A -> S for aforementioned reasons.

Was part of that me?

I don't know anything about and had to try pretty hard to even remember what the animation was, would like to know what justifies it in B.

Ness's side tilt is just okay. I would put it down with maybe C tier? Imagine an animation like Mr./Dr. Mario.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

A -> S for aforementioned reasons.
B -> A, it isn't worse than the likes of Corrin.
Maybe B -> A? Pretty sure it's not worse than Corrin's either, but I'm not entirely sure how much stronger Marth's tipper is by comparison. nevermind lol
D -> B, quick and largely disjointed poke.
should probably move up to at least C, it's disjointed with low endlag that makes it safe on shield starting from mid% aura. Dunno specifically how useful it is to the character, but it doesn't seem like a bad button to press, especially considering how short-ranged and/or laggy most of Lucario's moves are.

I don't know anything about and had to try pretty hard to even remember what the animation was, would like to know what justifies it in B.

I'd be more likely to drop Corrin down to B then more Ike up to A. At least not past the bottom of A. Its good, but not super amazing. But apparently most ftilts are meh to bleh so I guess that's pretty great by comparison.

 

[ARGHETH]

I'd be more likely to drop Corrin down to B then more Ike up to A. At least not past the bottom of A. Its good, but not super amazing. But apparently most ftilts are meh to bleh so I guess that's pretty great by comparison.

Corrin's is kind of absurdly high. It's good, but it's not that good. Honestly, I'd put it either right in front or behind Ike's

 

[Ffamran]

Ryu's in a weird spot. His light Ftilt would kind of be in Falco's territory of a simple check kick. It's main disadvantages is that he can't angle it which while isn't a "Ryu" thing, would have been helpful, especially if they introduced a mechanic where angled Ftilts produced different moves, but that's a story for another day. It has invincibility, but doesn't cover his lower leg which you'd think would need invincibility too. The big things going for it would be its low 17 frames of recovery and above-average 4 active frames. Light Ftilt probably should be in B or C-tier.

Heavy Ftilt, Collarbone Breaker, on the other hand is kind of situational, but probably one of the more reliable ways of breaking shields, especially since that one patch that tweaked shields allowing it connect completely on-shield. As a move alone, it's not really strong, it's at the range when moves are slow on startup, and its range is average -- first hit is slightly disjointed --, fitting its overhead punch. Also, recovery's pretty average at 21 frames. I'd say C-tier.

Oh, and part of me feels like Duck Hunt's Ftilt should at least be in C-tier or possibly B, but I'd need a Duck Hun expert for that. Kirby, Jigglypuff, and PAC-MAN's Ftilt are pretty average too and should be in C-tier. For one, Jigglypuff's has 18 frames of recovery and does more damage, it does 10%, and has 2 more active frames than Mario's while having the same knockback. It probably even has similar range. The only downside outside of being underwhelming like most check kick Ftilts? It's frame 7 to Mario's 5, but that's still decently fast.

 

[Masonomace]

I too agree with others in that Ftilt can warrant a rank↑ to at least C. A general neat thing about Ftilts can boil down to a few things:

• Ability to angle up or down
• How that angling affects the move such as an increase or decrease in damage, kb values, hitbox range, etc..
• A vacuum suggestion of ones character's traction for spacing purposes to a pivot Ftilt
• Multi-hit
• Intangibility / other utility
• Insert reason here

Some tilts that reach the same horizontal range regard of the angling is a pretty sweet trait & advantage in hindsight. Especially if the damages & KB values are identical as well.
And I know I'm not the most knowledgeable about a good amount of characters, but does really deserve F tier? Startup being frame 17 is bad sure, & the endlag being a FAF of 68 is horrendous sure, but the move has 23 frames of hitbox activity & those 23 frames cannot be challenged aka beats out moves. I guess it doesn't justify the startup & endlag being ridiculous, but I just feel like it's not that bad, right?. . .Right??

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I don't think either of the Pits deserve B. Pit's can kill with tight, Marth-like spacing, but is as fast to come out and less powerful than F-smash. Dark Pit's can jab lock and force edge slips, but that same sourspot can be punished on hit like other weak Ftilts populating lower tiers. Toon Link I don't see on the same tier as Link. Yes it has less startup than Link, but lacks the range, damage and killing power, leaving nothing special. It even has 2 more endlag. And Corrin I think is a C tier. There is nothing noteworthy about it. Won't kill, won't combo, reaches kind of far. It's basically Robin or Swordfighter's. Only Robin's angle helps with keeping up zoning and Swordfighter's can kill at very late %. Metaknight also shouldn't be B. The Ftilt combo deals 8%, the hitboxes are terrible, and it's outclassed by Dtilt which can trip, is way safer to miss or have blocked, and is MK's go-to for locking in his nastier combos involving Bair knockdowns and footstools. Sonic is also not noteworthy. If you're using the move for spacing, then you can forget about the first hit's tiny hitbox. And when you go in close to use the move anyway, that hitbox sometimes sends them in the wrong direction entirely. So it's realistically another 7% damage poke that's debatable to ever use when spin dash options are way safer and he can use his great movement to grab instead for better damage and kill setups.

And I think Shulk's placement is a bit unfair. It matches or surpasses Ike's in every avenue besides the ability to angle. And gets even better if the right Art is equipped. They both deserve B.

 

[jet56]

Ok so this is the initial list for Forward-Tilt:

Spoiler: Forward-Tilt

Was hard to create this list, so I am sure there is a lot to discuss upon

Ok, no. Little Mac shoud be in S, and top 3. I might even say 1st. The move does 12%, kill's earlier than some smashes (seriously, this move is stupid strong, like, you die at 95% at ledge, with no rage at that.), comes out frame 4, FRAME 4 (only move thats faster than that is megamans, which is a walking jab pretty much.), and to top it off, has more range that marth's Ftilt. that's right, this move can outspace marths ftilt (although to be fair, he does take a small step forward when used.) It's also pretty safe on shield when spaced, and has a sweetspot on the glove when you space it right. I can see it ranked behind maybe ganon, sheik perhaps, but no way in hell is it worse than megamans, Marth, Corrins, or Wii Fit's. ask yourself, would those 4 character in A tier trade their ftilt for little mac's? Hell yes they would. who doesn't want a long reaching, frame 4 tilt, that freaking kills dumb early for a ftilt? Maybe bias due to being a mac main, but that's just me. Should be in S tier at #4 at the very least, personally i think it is #1, maybe #2 behind ganon.

Edit: Also, a little late to the topic, but Mac's Up special is way to damn low. The only, ONLY bad thing about it is the recovery distance. It's not easily exploitable for a recovery, since it sharks ledge and has a far reaching hitbox that's safe when spaced properly, you can mix up the recovery by autosnapping the up on the first frame on the ledge. Top it off with the fact that the move has invun. frames 1-3, with the hitbox coming out frame 3, and having a farther reaching hitbox than his jab, his bloody JAB, making it a great OoS option. Oh, did i mention the fact it combos into literally 3 other moves (jab, utilt, Dtilt) and kills almost as early as ZSS boost kick, if not earlier? Again, the only bad thing about the up B is the distance. It does everything else you would want an up Special to do. Why it's in D tier behind up specials with no hitboxes and the like is beyond me.

 

[ARGHETH]

Marth might prefer his large disjointed arcing hitbox that has a FAF of 34. His tipper kills within a few % of LM's.
Sheik's is a fast, safe move that combos into like half her moveset.