Ranking moves in Characters (Round 21: Discussing Down-Special)

[kendikong]

If we're talking about Ryu's light ftilt and not strong ftilt, it's pretty garbage.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Ftilts

Just for the characters I use most, I discuss them in the spoiler. TL;DR underneath for you lazy ones.

Spoiler: Forward Tilt's

: Objectively one of her worst moves, but by no means bad. What people forget is that with Luma, this move has surprising range. Rosalina's is very slightly disjointed too. It's definetly better than some meagre Ftilt's like Robin's. I think this deserves to move up to the next tier, albeit near the bottom.

: Possibly one of the best Ftilts in the game. Has fantastic reach (reaches both in front and above [eg: can tipper people standing on a Battlefield platform above him], and his longest reaching move in general), good start up, threatening KO power when tipped (can also Jab 1 into Ftilt, which is true, unlike Fsmash), and low enough endlag to be safe when spaced on the tip. The fact this move hits in such a wide range and is such a threat on the tip means that the opponent HAS to respect it (an opponent on the ledge cannot mindlessly get up into it, or a cornered opponent has to jump over it, which Marth can capitalize on). It's safe enough to almost mindlessly swing at a cornered opponent and they have nearly no options to counter it.

With that in mind, I want to touch on the two other clones...

: As a clone of Marth, you'd expect hers to live up the same as Marth's. However, this isn't the case. It's great range (slightly shorter than Marth's), and the start up and endlag of the move... that's about it. Even when spaced on the tip, it's still unsafe, as the only option Lucina has is to shield to be safe. It also has no notable KO power, KO'ing slightly later than Up Throw in general. It's still a good move, better than almost all in C tier, but she should definetly be near the bottom of B, especially when characters like Fox have multiple uses for their Ftilt, or characters like Sonic and Pit have more KO power on theirs.

: This should be much in the same place as Lucina. It's range is rather pitiful for a sword, having no use at the tip, and having to be extremely close to get it's KO power. It's also still unsafe, even if sweetspotted. However, it has decent start up and endlag, and actually KO's around 10% earlier than Marth's Ftilt, which is a niche it has. This is definitely better than most in C, but like Lucina's, definitely one of the worst in B.

: Her Ftilt is one of the most damaging in the game, dealing 15% if all the hits land. The first hit can combo into a couple other moves, or a grab. At certain percent ranges, around 70%-90% ish, the 3rd hit can also combo into an Uair, and I've had this KO with a bit of Rage on stages with shorter celings, like Smashville and Town. However, the move does have a fair bit of start up (frame 12), and the endlag is punishable if missed. However, given the moves overall utility, I think it deserves to be nearer the top of B, such as at least better than DK's.

: This Ftilt is about where it should be. It as a relatively good CQ move, having decent reach, fast start up, average damage, and good endlag. It's fine near the middle of B, where it currently is. Good job.

: This Ftilt should really be higher, like, definitely A tier. The move has good start up, great reach, and rather good damage (11% is really good for a tilt). It's safe it hit at the foot too. The move's main boon, however, is landing the move at certain percents GUARUNTEES a Charge Shot, no matter what tech option the opponent selects - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9A-VChjUNcg&t=12m4s, meaning based on where you are on stage, or on what stage, this can be a KO combo. If you miss the tech, it also hits, and with the whole, random but truly untechable state going around, this just makes this even more deadly. An A tier Ftilt, for real.

: Bottom of C is about right. Probably his worst move. Poor range, below average damage, no conversions etc. No real reason to use.

: I'd also put this one next to Mario's. At least this move has more range. It's at least pretty usable out of a pivot.

: This should really be in B tier, though somehwere near the bottom. One of his most damaging tilts (powered even more by Aura), can hit below the ledge with Aura, with Aura KO's, strong reach (which I am pretty sure increases with Aura), and relatively low endlag. Also safe with lots of Aura.

Also, why are and in B? Ness's is almost on the same level of Mario; poor reach, damage, no confirms etc. Relatively no reason to use. These should be in C at least. Lucas's is a bit better than Ness's, as it has some KO potential and range, but is punishable and unsafe on shield. This should not be near the top of B, but at least near the bottom of B.

TL;DR

: low C -> bottom of B / top of C
: A -> S
: Move to bottom of B
: Move to bottom of B
: Low B -> Mid/high B (next to Link?)
: Perfect where it is
: B -> bottom of A
: Prefect where it is
: D -> bottom of C (just above Mario)
: D -> bottom of B
: B -> low C (next to Mario)
: B -> bottom of B / top of C

 

[Airpoizon]

Either move down or move above Lucina. Roys f tilt is much better, kills way earlier, and does 2% more damage sweet spotted. Lucinas is honestly just another poking took like your generic Falco kick or Mario kick. Roys is actually a really powerful and relatively safe kill option

 

[Frihetsanka]

I'm not quite sure what "B" means. Isn't "B" for moves that are pretty good? If so, should Ness' ftilt really be B? It seems pretty average to me as far as f-tilts go.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Reminder that characters are not ordered within the tiers.

EDIT: At least, that was the impression I was under.

 

[Lorde]

they're not ordered within the tiers

the person who made the up special list did it wrong

 

[Floor]

Marth->Lucina and Roy. Lucina is about just as good as roy, but both sadly below marth.

Also, marths -> God tier

 

[LancerStaff]

I'm very curious to know which Ftilt Pit mains prefer. Dark Pit's won't kill with its reduced knockback, but the weak hit will lock and force edge slips, and they are severely lacking in moves that can do that. Pit's will kill at about 115% at the ledge when spaced, is as slow as ganon's, and the move reaches further than Marth's. Good, but could be better.

Edit: Oh yeah, and Pit's F-tilt has as much startup as Fsmash, so it's kill potential is less notable. And only 8 frames safer on block when spaced compared to Fsmash

Just noting real quick that they're the same move sans knockback, so everybody's on the same page.

Pit's definitely, though they're both built something like a weaker Smash attack like Ike's. Frame ten is kinda meh but the range (plus Pit's good walk) helps negate it. Dark Pit's isn't terribly good for ledge slips because of the endlag... And it's often unsafe on hit which sucks because the damage is alright, 7% sourspot 10% tipper. It can force an unavoidable tech situation which is a 50/50 kill confirm with Electroshock, but since we're measuring things in a vacuum that's not relevant.

It being a decent kill move is less redundant then you'd think. Fsmash's first hit is fairly small and the second while massive is f21. What it has over Fsmash is namely active frames, where it lasts five frames. Perfect for people to ledge getup into the tipper, lol. Besides that and the occasional "lol f10 from a walk" gigantic attack thrown out it's not used too much. Not so useful from a pivot either since Pit doesn't actually take a step forwards, for some reason...

It's okay. Probably C tier, maybe B tier if we're really scrapping the bottom of barrel. Dark Pit's should be D.

 

[TDK]

they're not ordered within the tiers

the person who made the up special list did it wrong

I did say you could change the order of them mentally, and that's just how I would personally order it.

 

[BJN39]

I would recommend

B -> C
C -> B

I mean, I sold Zelda's Ftilt down, but I actually would consider it more on par with the characters in B than C based off of it as a Ftilt alone.

Bayo's Ftilt as explained only gets followups off Ftilt1 on heavier characters around 100%+, and they have to be closeish and grounded. On top of that, it has no disjoint at all and comes out quite slow. Ftilt2/3 are not much to speak of either aside the lolhitboxes. No KO power, inconsistent connectability, no real combo potential (MAYBE a frame perfect WTwist can connect during a very specific window.)

 

[Flamegeyser]

I would recommend

B -> C
C -> B

I mean, I sold Zelda's Ftilt down, but I actually would consider it more on par with the characters in B than C based off of it as a Ftilt alone.

Bayo's Ftilt as explained only gets followups off Ftilt1 on heavier characters around 100%+, and they have to be closeish and grounded. On top of that, it has no disjoint at all and comes out quite slow. Ftilt2/3 are not much to speak of either aside the lolhitboxes. No KO power, inconsistent connectability, no real combo potential (MAYBE a frame perfect WTwist can connect during a very specific window.)

I dunno, Bayo's ftilt1 can actually lead into a grab if you hit with the mid hitbox, and it's prime mixup food (although since our grab game sucks, it's not that deadly of one unless you're at the edge for yet ANOTHER mixup with grab DI). It can also (frame perfectly) combo into fsmash, but don't consider that too highly. I'd keep it where it is solely for it's damage output and mixup ability tho.

 

[BJN39]

Under no circumstance would Ftilt1 ever combo into Fsmash true, even with the only hitbox that offers and advantage high enough for anything.

Also, there are only 2 hitboxes versus a grounded opponent that matter: an inner one and an outer one. This "mid" one you're referring to is probably the inner one. (When hitting an airborne opponent there's only 1 hitbox, but it doesn't guarantee anything.)

It only guarantees grab by like, 100%. And when can Bayonetta, in the heat of a battle, land a near-spaced, frame 12 move with ONE hitframe, on a grounded opponent?

Ftilt > Grab combos are way too impractical, and just about anything else from Ftilt1 should not be guaranteed. Especially not Fsmash. Aside that combo, the move is rather lackluster.

 

[Lorde]

yeah, her ftilt is really lame

it's main selling point is that it does 15%, but there's not much else to use it for

ftilt1 has a few combos out of it, but as bjn said, they're pretty situational

and to further compound that, it's required you hit with a certain hitbox on a frame 12 move with one active frame. oh, and the opponent has to be grounded for it to work

like, if that's not situational, then i don't know what is

i've definitely gotten ftilt1>jab to work a few times in training mode, though (or maybe it was jab1>ftilt? idk)

there's like never any reason to use ftilt when the rest of bayo's normals exist tbh

imo this move could be knocked down a tier, but i guess it's fine where it is now

 

[TheColorfulOrca]

I dunno, Bayo's ftilt1 can actually lead into a grab if you hit with the mid hitbox, and it's prime mixup food (although since our grab game sucks, it's not that deadly of one unless you're at the edge for yet ANOTHER mixup with grab DI). It can also (frame perfectly) combo into fsmash, but don't consider that too highly. I'd keep it where it is solely for it's damage output and mixup ability tho.

Personally, I agree keeping it in B. While it may not have any true followups, it definitely has usable mix-up potential, which not a lot of other FTilts have. It also has quite a lot of damage to boot. In my opinion, those warrant it to stay where it is. I'm sure plenty of other characters would like to have her FTilt instead of theirs...

 

[Flamegeyser]

Personally, I agree keeping it in B. While it may not have any true followups, it definitely has usable mix-up potential, which not a lot of other FTilts have. It also has quite a lot of damage to boot. In my opinion, those warrant it to stay where it is. I'm sure plenty of other characters would like to have her FTilt instead of theirs...

I suppose I don't care too much, so long as her utilt and dtilt get put in their proper place :D.

 

[TheColorfulOrca]

I suppose I don't care too much, so long as her utilt and dtilt get put in their proper place :D.

True, true. We'll save them for another time...

 

[Emblem Lord]

If we're talking about Ryu's light ftilt and not strong ftilt, it's pretty garbage.

Except it isn't.

 

[Shollyboster]

Ftilts

Also, why are and in B? Ness's is almost on the same level of Mario; poor reach, damage, no confirms etc. Relatively no reason to use. These should be in C at least. Lucas's is a bit better than Ness's, as it has some KO potential and range, but is punishable and unsafe on shield. This should not be near the top of B, but at least near the bottom of B.[/SPOILER]

: B -> low C (next to Mario)
: B -> bottom of B / top of C

I would argue that Lucas's f-tilt should stay, or be even higher. As a Lucas/Ness co-main, I feel like his sweetspotted f-tilt is best utilized as a replacement for an f-smash. It is a good "get off me" move because it comes out fast and ends swiftly as well. Sourspotted down-angled can jab lock. Sweetspotted can kill, and set up for an easy edge guard with bair or fair. Overall, I feel this move is right where it should be.

Plus, sweetspotted it does a hefty 11% for a one hit move.

Ok, that's interesting.

Anything to add for Ness's though? I see no justification for that to be where it is what-so-ever.

No, Ness's is pretty garbage. I rate it as an equal to Mario's.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I would argue that Lucas's f-tilt should stay, or be even higher. As a Lucas/Ness co-main, I feel like his sweetspotted f-tilt is best utilized as a replacement for an f-smash. It is a good "get off me" move because it comes out fast and ends swiftly as well. Sourspotted down-angled can jab lock. Sweetspotted can kill, and set up for an easy edge guard with bair or fair. Overall, I feel this move is right where it should be.

Plus, sweetspotted it does a hefty 11% for a one hit move.

Ok, that's interesting.

Anything to add for Ness's though? I see no justification for that to be where it is what-so-ever.

 

[Goombo]

About Greninjas Ftilt:
It has pretty long range, ist safe against anyone at near max spacing (correct me if I'm wrong) and profits a lot from one of the best perfect pivots in the game (and I mean a real lot, just try to space around a bit with pp ftilt, it's absolutely amazing).

I think it belongs at least in B.

 

[Bigbomb2]

I'll just jump in with the shameless Link plug. His Ftilt is one of the best ones in the game imo. Despite how slow it is it kills very early, is fairly safe on shield unless spaced poorly, covers a large area, and is an excellent tilt for pivots. It even can reach over the ledge and whack people if they're hanging off. I'd personally put it in low A because it is fairly slow on startup.

 

[Shollyboster]

It even can reach over the ledge and whack people if they're hanging off.

Uh, why would you ever use that? Down tilt is usually a much better option.

Ftilt tends to be easier to hit, and his Dtilt only spikes now in the middle of his sword. Most Link mains will simply opt for the ftilt especially after using bombs as traps

I see. Suits me for trying to act all high and mighty when I don't even consider Link a decent pocket.

 

[Bigbomb2]

Uh, why would you ever use that? Down tilt is usually a much better option.

Ftilt tends to be easier to hit, and his Dtilt only spikes now in the middle of his sword. Most Link mains will simply opt for the ftilt especially after using bombs as traps

 

[kendikong]

Except it isn't.

Maybe because it's just so unsatisfying to hit with compared to all of Ryu's other moves. It's short range, low damage, starts at frame 8, and I see no reason why you would use it over dtilt, utilt, or jab.

 

[Emblem Lord]

mid range spacing tool. Foot is intangible. Safe against most of the cast on block. Frame 8 is actually good so idk what you were saying there. Also since his foot is intangible he will beat many non-disjointed buttons head on like Diddy's dtilt for example, or Sheik's ftilt. Can't really disregard a poke that gives pause to other strong characters.

Do you not know what a poke is?

A shame as Ryu is the "father" of the poke game.

 

[Shollyboster]

A shame as Ryu is the "father" of the poke game.

"He gave him the big toe!"
—EE Visu

 

[Floor]

Do you not know what a poke is?

Lucinas dtilt. A literal poke

 

[TurboLink]

I'll just jump in with the shameless Link plug. His Ftilt is one of the best ones in the game imo. Despite how slow it is it kills very early, is fairly safe on shield unless spaced poorly, covers a large area, and is an excellent tilt for pivots. It even can reach over the ledge and whack people if they're hanging off. I'd personally put it in low A because it is fairly slow on startup.

Pivot Ftilt is also a good anti-air.

 

[Ffamran]

Maybe because it's just so unsatisfying to hit with compared to all of Ryu's other moves. It's short range, low damage, starts at frame 8, and I see no reason why you would use it over dtilt, utilt, or jab.

It's disjointed, slightly, damage doesn't really matter for checks or pokes, frame 8 is still decently fast; if it was frame 12, then yeah, we'd be wondering why it's so weak or so slow; outside of heavy Utilt, none of of those moves you listed have invincibility; neither light nor heavy Dtilt can't hit mid or high and light Dtilt can't push people back, checking them; light Utilt has much shorter range and isn't meant to check people while heavy Utilt is more of an anti-air; light jab has shorter range as well and heavy jab is more of an anti-air, has less active frames, and has higher recovery at 23 to light Ftilt's 17.

Most Ftilts are unsatisfying to hit and it's not because most of them are underwhelming, but because they're not really supposed to be powerful. General pattern is that Utilts are vertical, usually strong anti-airs, Ftilts are horizontal, but usually weak checks, and Dtilts are low sweeps. For Smashes, Up Smash is similar to Utilt, Side Smash subverts Ftilt by being horizontal, slow punishes, and Down Smash are more of utility, low coverage moves.

It's not the best, but it's also not the worse move. If Ryu's light Ftilt as it is right now was garbage, I can't imagine where Captain Falcon, Dr. Mario, Duck Hunt, Falco, Greninja, Jigglypuff, Kirby, Luigi, Mario, PAC-MAN, and Yoshi's, despite his not being a kick, but this dinky tail whip, would be. If Ryu's was garbage, F-tier material, then theirs would be like G-tier or worse. Freaking Palutena would be in O-tier or something. Ryu's light Ftilt is at worse, C-tier which is where most check kick Filts are.

mid range spacing tool. Foot is intangible. Safe against most of the cast on block. Frame 8 is actually good so idk what you were saying there. Also since his foot is intangible he will beat many non-disjointed buttons head on like Diddy's dtilt for example, or Sheik's ftilt. Can't really disregard a poke that gives pause to other strong characters.

Do you not know what a poke is?

A shame as Ryu is the "father" of the poke game.

It's also one of the few check kick Ftilts to be safe on-hit at 0 to low percents because of its high base. Cost of that is it doesn't have high growth and the high base doesn't allow it to reset like other check kick Ftilts, but hey, Ryu has light jab?, light Dtilt, and whatever moves I'm not aware of. Would also like to add how it has 4 active frames. Most check kick Ftilts have 2 to 3. The only other that comes to mind is Jigglypuff's. Yep. Jiggles has a 4 active frame Ftilt.

Weird thing is that Furil's hitbox viewers only show Ryu's light Ftilt having invincibility on his upper leg. Even if feet don't have hurtboxes, there's still an area that's vulnerable. Still, it's disjointed, so it's going to beat stuff regardless with good spacing.

Spoiler: Ryu's light Ftilt

 

[Routa]

Mii Brawler's F-tilt is pretty much slightly upgraded Mario's F-tilt. It is "decent" spacing tool. It is one of the few moves he should be using from pivot (other being U-tilt). Nothing special. It deserves a spot near Mario's.

Gunner's F-tilt is... Underwhelming? Like it is decent from pivot, but F-smash is just better option in every situation. As a move itself... Well it is decent spacing tool. Nothing els.

Swordspider's F-tilt is nothing to brag about. Decent killmove and spacing tool. Very similiar to that of a Lucina's. Main difference being worse range. I find its current placing in the initial list right.

 

[Funbot28]

Ok new list incoming:

Spoiler: Forward-Tilt

TL;DR:
A -> S
A -> S
B -> A
B -> A
C -> B
C -> B
C -> B
D -> B
C -> B
D -> C
B -> C
D -> C

I am still torn on dropping Bayo to C and bringing Palutena up to D, so I would like some more discussion on those two as well.

 

[TurboLink]

Ok new list incoming:

Spoiler: Forward-Tilt

TL;DR:
A -> S
A -> S
B -> A
B -> A
C -> B
C -> B
C -> B
D -> B
C -> B
D -> C
B -> C
D -> C

I am still torn on dropping Bayo to C and bringing Palutena up to D, so I would like some more discussion on those two as well.

Why is Ike's forward tilt A-tier but not Link's when Ike's is 13 frames of startup, 28 frames of end lag, and -12 on shield drop while Link's is 15 frames of startup, 22 frames of end lag, and -6 on shield drop?

Link's forward tilt also has more total knockback.

Link's forward tilt max knockback: 137

Ike's forward tilt max knockback: 127

 

[TheColorfulOrca]

While it may have a lot of start-up, Bayo's FTilt has great damage and good mix-up potential. Keep it in B.

Palutena's FTilt may be crap in basically all departments, but it does have a ton of active frames, and does a great job at covering spotdodges. Move it up.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Bayonetta's Ftilt deserves to stay where it is. While it has relatively slow start up, it deals lots of damage, and acts as a starter into grab or other moves. The last hit can also combo into Uair at certain percents.

It's fine. It's unique, and has options, which is what a lot of Ftilt's lack.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Why is Ike's forward tilt A-tier but not Link's when Ike's is 13 frames of startup, 28 frames of end lag, and -12 on shield drop while Link's is 15 frames of startup, 22 frames of end lag, and -6 on shield drop?

Link's forward tilt also has more total knockback.

Link's forward tilt max knockback: 137

Ike's forward tilt max knockback: 127

Range, KBG, and angling options on top of that small advantage in start up you already listed. (might be larger practically speaking when it comes to hitting opponents ahead of Link due to the sweeping motion. Would probably add a frame or two at least). Difference in KBG is large enough I believe to overcome the base value difference and let Ike's start killing first though I'm not 100% sure. Though like I said I thought Ike should have stayed very top of B, and then dropped Corrin behind him.

Keep Palutena's where it is. That thing is traaaaaash.

 

[Lavani]

Even if you catch someone with Palutena's 17f ftilt, which is both slower to start and end than most smash attacks, you're getting a paltry 6% (or 4% lol!) hitbox with no killing potential for your troubles.

Garbo ftilt, it is where it belongs.

 

[|RK|]

So. How is Kirby's ftilt in D tier?

Y'all know it's better than Mario's (who's in C) in literally every way? More active frames, earlier FAF, more damage, higher BKB?

It's one of the best ways to keep people away from Kirby if they need to approach. It's a pretty damn good defensive option/anti-grab option.

All of his tilts are pretty good, tbh.

EDIT: It's also -9 on shield drop, one frame less safe than *Sheik's*.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Most ftilts are honestly C tier. B tier at best. Alot of them are meh or worse.

 

[Shollyboster]

That thing is traaaaaash.

"Put it in the traaaaaash!"
—Jacksfilms

All of his tilts are pretty good, tbh.

So what tier do you suggest?


I would suggest putting Duck Hunt Dog's f-tilt in B. It isn't just good for hitting, it's good for setting up bomb combos. [BOMBO COMBOS? = CONFIRMED]

 

[Flamegeyser]

I dunno tho, Link's ftilt is A in my opinion. That range as well as kill power puts it on the same level as Ike to me.