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Its really very simple.. and most of it is based on the nature of the aforementioned toons, and their recoveries/combo styles...How the hell does ROB go even with Lucario and CF, but has advantage on Marth and has massive disadvantage to MK.
Explain plz.
LOL@ ROB going even with Peach.
I think he has advantage on her easily.
wow! this is fun to read lol
ROB wins in close range because the only time ROB will be in close range is when he is going to grab Marth and throw him awayI mean, if you airdodge through Marth can do the same thing really. His fair recovers fast enough that when his opponent tries to airdodge and they are above him he can just fast fall and hit them. Air-combos don't exist unless you are Lucario. If you force and airoddge and then hit them anyway, that's jsut baiting an airdodge.
ROB's kill moves don't have HUGE start-up. But he does freeze in place for about a split second, which can give a good opponent time to react. Which is why ROB relys on gimping. Hit for hit ROB is fairly weak overall. I already said that f-tilt does 6% and d-tilt does 3%. Which also goes back to his close range options. Marth's are better and you wanted proof. Marth has his up B which is invincible on the first 5 frames, comes out on frame 1, and it can kill around 140 to 150 ish depending on his opponent's weight. Marth has his Dancing Blade which can do anywhere between 16% to 21% AND all 4 attacks count towards attack regeneration. Dancing Blade is etremely fast, but everyone in the smash community knows that at this point. And of coure he has all his powerful smashes at close range as well. ROB has his tilts which are weak, his f-smash which is solid and his d-smash which can be easily DIed out of. Marth win's at close range.
I have one word to any Marth that goes in and out with his fair while thinking he is safe:Also Marth can attack ROB safely since he can SH fair and then DI back to stay safe or just abuse his d-tilt cancel to stay safe. I'm not saying ROB can't hit Marth. I'm saying Marth has the tools to stage an offense without putting himself into danger.
MK has a better aerial game than Marth. Marth gets decimated by ROB in the air unless he is approaching ROB from the back or from below, which rarely happens. ROB can combo Marth easily.And about Marth's approach. I mean honestly, if ROB can just camp Marth then why can't the same be said of MK. Well, MK can rushdown and still be safe. Marth can do the same. He can rush down mainly with Dancing Blade and d-tilts to stay safe. DB is less safe but racks up more damage. D-tilt is safer and more of a pressure tool. And I already talked about Marth's SH fair.
The matchup is even, but not for any of the reasons you describe. I believe the matchup is even because Marth has good damage dealing attacks and the ability to gimp ROB as well as avoid gimps FROM ROB. Most characters, if they can be gimped, can't avoid it if ROB plays well. Marth, with his counter and good DI, can get out of any possible gimp. This forces ROB to attack for damage and edgeguard Marth with a laser and other such things.Overall I will say that Marth is better overall, but ROB has better gimping, recovery, and camping.
You're working in absolutes.The reasons you listed wouldn't be enough. How the hell would Marth get ROB off the stage to gimp him if ROB beats anything at close range that Marth has?
Logic error.
Marth's aerials do not kill ROB.Also ROB's laser has a bit of start up time. If Marth is already close then how is ROB gonna laser him? How is MK's aerial game better? It's better for gimping Marth's is better for outright killing and Marth's aerials are stronger. They do different things.
Wow, you have an answer to everything.Good spacing with Marth allows him to avoid getting grabbed, since he is outside of grab range, but still be able to avoid ROB's tilts thanks to DI on his SH or cancelling the d-tilt. Also after a SH fair Marth can airdodge. So how can he be hit with a laser? SH Fair DI back airdodge.
Your entire post is hypotheticals.Saying that ROB will always be able to throw Marth away is just silly. I mean I could just say that Marth can use Dolphin slash or Dancing Blade to stuff any throw attempt. I don't like hypotheticals. I like data and evidence. Overall Marth is better at close range.
I'd happily do so, but my computer is broken so it is a mite difficult to organize these things. I'm at work right nowoooo you got served!
But seriously, you guys need to throw down and record some matches.
Just because you control space doesn't mean you have better close range options.
Marth outranged Shiek and Fox in melee, but they clearly had better options at close range.
I agree that Marth and ROB go even but your reasoning makes no sense to me. Honestly with your reasoning ROB demolishes Marth, since you speak like ROB just shuts him down but then you say they go even which makes no sense.
Close range options is just how effective your moves are at close range and what tools you have to work with. Marth wins at close range. There is no disuputing this. He has more to work with and better moves overall.
Marth's aerials can't kill ROB? That's just...silly. Why wouldn't they be able to kill him exactly? All of Marth's aerials have good knockback so what are you talking about?
Look over what you said again and tell me that makes sense. Basically you are saying that Marth goes even with a character that completely shuts him down according to you and the only thing that Marth can do is edgeguard ROB effectively.
This is completely illogical. So either you have to acknowledge what I'm saying is right, or you have to say that ROB ***** Marth.
Now I think its obvious that ROB does't **** Marth. So then you have to go back and take into account the things I said because that is the ONLY way Math goes even with ROB. Being able to get ROB off the stage and gimp him isn't enough when ROB outranges him and according to you combos the **** out of him, and has better options then him.
I'm not going to say Marth's aerials are KO moves because they aren't. I play Marth, I know. The only way they are kill moves is if you intercept someone as they are returning to the stage, whether it be from the sides or above. His best aerial is his tippered second hit of his nair; it isn't a reliable KO move if your opponent has any sense of DI.See now your last paragraph made perfect sense. But it's not what I'm debating.
The debate for me is HOW does Marth get in his damage if ROB can just shut him down. If it's even then Marth must have something right? Otherwise he is just running in blind and HOPING that he can get some hits in. I do agree that Marth's rushdown is what makes this even for him since he racks up damage easily. Also Marth can kill ROB. He doesn't HAVE to gimp him.
Honestly I think Marth has to play a more aggro game with ROB and rely less on aerials, but that's ok since his ground game is strong.
But what you said about close range made no sense. Sorry, but I'm sticking to that.
Saying Marth's aerials can't kill ROB is silly since all his aerials are kill moves. Go to practice mode and hit ROB with tipper aerials when he is at about 140ish. Marth's aerials are kill moves. Why would you say otherwise? Stop saying such nonsense. Now to say they aren't his best kill options because ROB is heavy is another thing entirely. Mostly it's the way you spaek that make it look like ROB destroys Marth. When you talk you give ROB alot of credit and you give Marth very little.
I have to play your Marth again Emblem, you were seriously the first Marth player I'd played in Brawl(not melee though) so I didn't really have any kind of strategies to use with ROB or PT. lolI agree more or less, but saying that Dancing Blade is all Marth has is silly.
And saying that ROB wins in close range is silly and false. I'll let this drop now, since I more or less think that rushdown Marth is what allows Marth to go head to head with ROB, so we or less agree on that.
Kirby...So Mr Swarm..
About our diffences in opions of the matchups between Kirby, Fox, Luigi, and Zamus...
which are as follows...
Chozen-
OS-
Kirby:
+
-
Fox, offensively, is a beast. I originally thought the same as you, until I realized that I can kill Fox every time he's off the stage, period. That just made the matchup cakewalk for me. I don't even rack up damage anymore, I just get him off the stage. Wait for him to start over-b or up+b, then laser. he is now under the stage or going for the ledge. Grab ledge or hit his up+b with gyro or laser, then follow up with fairs off stage. GGs.Fox:
-
+
Everything you say is true to a ROB that fights on the stage. I played Tink's Luigi in a friendly and I thought "wow, this guy is tough; I can't trade hits with him but can't approach safely!"Luigi:
-
+
Zamus gave my brain a bit of trouble at first. She's tether, but you can't gay her like other tether recoveries. She can combo, and has a long range KO move. Why isn't she top tier?!Zamus:
-
+
Uphill battel for ROB, yes. But not too bad.hmm.. i will have to think about this a tad..
as for something else i've been considering...
Snake is a *******.. and even on flat stages [like FD, or SmashVille] where ROB can drop a gyro on the ground, and prevent mortor sliding, and nade spamming, [imo] Snake can kill ROB ALOT easier than ROB can kill Snake and Snake isn't really that gayable [unless you counterpick FD lol].. Snake's Ftilt also has insane priority, and his Jabby gayness is ********.. and he NEVER dies.
After playing against some more snakage today i [think] my new conclusion for the ROB/Snake matchup is that- when on FD ROB has the advantage.. but basically everywhere else, it's in Snake's favor.