Q&A Unleashing a 2-D Horror - A Game and Watch Thread

[Metmetm3t]

eh ok

- dash attack has a modified first few active frames' hitbox to do 10 damage and hit forward
- this new hitbox also comes out 2 frames faster
- ftilt's last 10 frames now do 8 damage instead of constant 13 (the angle on the 8 damage hit is also bad)
- pivot grab has 1 extra frame of grabbing
- all throw animations match
- Dair has 3 frames of end lag added
- During the first 16 frames of FSmash 4 different hitboxes come out. The original 18 damage hit then every 4 frames a new 10 damage hit.
- The lingering late hitbox on FSmash has been weakened from 12 to 7 damage with less knockback
- Dsmash has a new hitbox that ground bounces sometimes (I don't know exactly how to make it happen consistently, but it's on the hammers)
- there's actually three sizes to the bacon the usual 4 damage a small 3 damage and the big 15 damage

 

[Artimus]

It felt like the pan stayed out just a tad longer, or maybe I was just tired. Idk. I noticed it a few times, but other than that the shdb felt fine.

 

[Emg3]

whats the best way to recover off stage with G&W? Is there anything else you can do to get back on stage besides up B?

 

[Juushichi]

save your jump, because ths is a smash game?

also not predictably?

 

[Emg3]

I meant like how mario has his cape which he can use to also get back beside his up B is there something that game and watch has that can help him recover? like does using the bucket off stage to slow down his fall help G & W recover.

 

[Juushichi]

yes, he can bucket stall a little to slow his descent and change his direction in the air.

 

[QraQ]

So is the new large version of bacon random or based on a sequence?

 

[Makai]

What happened to chair?

 

[Metmetm3t]

One frame has been added to the startup of Chef. Possibly making double bacon 2 frames longer, or maybe just 1 for the whole thing idk.

There is no sequence to the bacon, large meat seams to have a probability of about 1/10 or 1/15

Oil Panic Stalling (you should call it OP Stalling cause, why not?) is really important as it allows you to bait out jumps and it also seems to give G&W a tiny push forward the first time you use it.

 

[Juushichi]

Why not just call it OPS, m3t?

 

[Metmetm3t]

that works too a guess. I just thought of OP = OVER POWERED PogChamp Kreygasm Kappa FrankerZ

 

[Magus420]

Chef speed is the same as before. First comes out on 8, and then as little as 14 between each food if input manually (2nd coming out on 22 at earliest), and 22 between each food if you hold the button (2nd coming out on 30). There are 4 different foods: Sausage/Fried Prawns/Fish/Steak. Normal sizes do 3/3/4/4 damage, and jumbo do 12/13/14/15.

D-Air has significantly less lag in the air than before btw, not more. Helps with things like up-b -> d-air comboing, fulljump d-air stuff like FJ d-air -> FF waveland (can reach low enough to hit and still waveland out of it), FJ d-air -> chef/up-b/f-air/b-air/u-air/d-air landing hit. Since it interrupts before it autocancels (like u-air) you can not interrupt it to get the landing hit if you want it.

 

[Juushichi]

Chef speed is the same as before. First comes out on 8, and then as little as 14 between each food if input manually (2nd coming out on 22 at earliest), and 22 between each food if you hold the button (2nd coming out on 30). There are 4 different foods: Sausage/Fried Prawns/Fish/Steak. Normal sizes do 3/3/4/4 damage, and jumbo do 12/13/14/15.

D-Air significantly less lag in the air than before btw, not more. Helps with things like up-b -> d-air comboing, fulljump d-air stuff like FJ d-air -> FF waveland (can reach low enough to hit and still waveland out of it), FJ d-air -> chef/up-b/f-air/b-air/u-air/d-air landing hit. Since it interrupts before it autocancels (like u-air) you can not interrupt it to get the landing hit if you want it.

Sexy, I'll be messing around more with Dair. If we ever meet in person, I must give you a hug for 2.6 f-throw. You are a god for this. Absolutely.

 

[Squirrely]

Some boring numbers regarding the visible Judgement odds.

Spoiler

First hammer of the match (previous hammers were 2 then 1 automatically)
-> 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9

The following previous hammers don't have to be in the listed order..
Keep in mind the set with {1, 2} through {1, 9} WILL be your second hammer-of-the-match's results.

Previous hammers - 1, 2
One dot -> 3, 5, 7, 9
Two dot -> 4, 6, 8

Previous hammers - 1, 3
One dot -> 5, 7, 9
Two dot -> 2, 4, 6, 8

Previous hammers - 1, 4
One dot -> 3, 5, 7, 9
Two dot -> 2, 6, 8

Previous hammers - 1, 5
One dot -> 3, 7, 9
Two dot -> 2, 4, 6, 8

Previous hammers - 1, 6
One dot -> 3, 5, 7, 9
Two dot -> 2, 4, 8

Previous hammers - 1, 7
One dot -> 3, 5, 9
Two dot -> 2, 4, 6, 8

Previous hammers - 1, 8
One dot -> 3, 5, 7, 9
Two dot -> 2, 4, 6

Previous hammers - 1, 9
One dot -> 3, 5, 7,
Two dot -> 2, 4, 6, 8

Previous hammers - 2, 3
One dot -> 1, 5, 7, 9
Two dot -> 4, 6, 8

Previous hammers - 2, 4
One dot -> 1, 3, 5, 7, 9
Two dot -> 6, 8

Previous hammers - 2, 5
One dot -> 1, 3, 7, 9
Two dot -> 4, 6, 8

Previous hammers - 2, 6
One dot -> 1, 3, 5, 7, 9
Two dot -> 4, 8

Previous hammers - 2, 7
One dot -> 1, 3, 5, 9
Two dot -> 4, 6, 8

Previous hammers - 2, 8
One dot -> 1, 3, 5, 7, 9
Two dot -> 4, 6

Previous hammers - 2, 9
One dot -> 1, 3, 5, 7
Two dot -> 4, 6, 8

Previous hammers - 3, 4
One dot -> 1, 5, 7, 9
Two dot -> 2, 6, 8

Previous hammers - 3, 5
One dot -> 1, 7, 9
Two dot -> 2, 4, 6, 8

Previous hammers - 3, 6
One dot -> 1, 5, 7, 9
Two dot -> 2, 4, 8

Previous hammers - 3, 7
One dot -> 1, 5, 9
Two dot -> 2, 4, 6, 8

Previous hammers - 3, 8
One dot -> 1, 5, 7, 9
Two dot -> 2, 4, 6

Previous hammers - 3, 9
One dot -> 1, 5, 7
Two dot -> 2, 4, 6, 8

Previous hammers - 4, 5
One dot -> 1, 3, 7, 9
Two dot -> 2, 6, 8

Previous hammers - 4, 6
One dot -> 1, 3, 5, 7, 9
Two dot -> 2, 8

Previous hammers - 4, 7
One dot -> 1, 3, 5, 9
Two dot -> 2, 6, 8

Previous hammers - 4, 8
One dot -> 1, 3, 5, 7, 9
Two dot -> 2, 6

Previous hammers - 4, 9
One dot -> 1, 3, 5, 7
Two dot -> 2, 6, 8

Previous hammers - 5, 6
One dot -> 1, 3, 7, 9
Two dot -> 2, 4, 8

Previous hammers - 5, 7
One dot -> 1, 3, 9
Two dot -> 2, 4, 6, 8

Previous hammers - 5, 8
One dot -> 1, 3, 7, 9
Two dot -> 2, 4, 6

Previous hammers - 5, 9
One dot -> 1, 3, 7
Two dot -> 2, 4, 6, 8

Previous hammers - 6, 7
One dot -> 1, 5, 3, 9
Two dot -> 2, 4, 8

Previous hammers - 6, 8
One dot -> 1, 3, 5, 7, 9
Two dot -> 2, 4,

Previous hammers - 6, 9
One dot -> 1, 3, 5, 7
Two dot -> 2, 4, 8

Previous hammers - 7, 8
One dot -> 1, 3, 5, 9
Two dot -> 2, 4, 6

Previous hammers - 7, 9
One dot -> 1, 3, 5,
Two dot -> 2, 4, 6, 8

Previous hammers - 8, 9
One dot -> 1, 3, 5, 7
Two dot -> 2, 4, 6

What this boils down to:
First hammer = 1 in 7 chance of guessing correctly (3 or higher)
Second hammer (even, one dot) = 1 in 4 chance (3, 5, 7 or 9)
Second hammer (even, two dots) = 1 in 3 chance (remaining even numbers)

Last two were odd, one dot = 1 in 3 chance (remaining odd's)
Last two were odd two dots = 1 in 4 chance (even's)

Last two were even, one dot = 1 in 5 chance (odd's)
Last two were even, two dots = 1 in 2 chance (remaining even's)

Mixed, one dot = 1 in 4 chance (remaining odd's)
Mixed, two dots = 1 in 3 (remaining even's)

Note: 2nd hammer and mixed results are the same EXCEPT 2nd will never be a 1.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On a personal note, I don't see many people effectively putting this knowledge to use in an actual match.
Not even the 50% chance for the even number is of much use when there's so much variation between 2, 4, 6 and 8 in terms of when you would want to use each one.

The 1 in 3 chance of an odd number is probably the most reliable and especially when the previous numbers were a 1 and 3 or 5 as this gives you a 66% chance of getting a strong killing attack with a 7 or 9.
Though breaking shields with 3's and crunching on damage with 5's is always welcome as well.

So keep your eyes out for 2odd1dots and 2even2dots.



P.S. I wish the big fish could spike.

 

[Chibi-Chan]

The amount of dots just says wether the next Judge will be an Even or Uneven Number. They said so in the interview 2 days ago.

Fmash is a bit different on block. Did it always hit multiple times against shield? Instead of a lingering hitbox it actually has I think 2-3 different ones and they can all hit shield and drain it very fast. Is this new?

Also, I don't recall Dsmash having that vertical knockback, with no DI it tends to send them straight up instead of the deadly horizontal angle from before.

 

[Metmetm3t]

Dsmash has always hit up on the hammers and out on the arms. But now those hitboxes are slight adjusted.
Fsmash's multihits is new and also can hit twice on unsheilding opponents too. (28 damage)

 

[Artimus]

Hammers are spacey killers.

Any news about how to groundbounce with D-smash, m3t? I played for a few hours but didn't get one in any of the matches. I want d-smash > u-smash to work so bad.

 

[Metmetm3t]

No idea. According to PSA the hitbox is in the same spot and is the same size as the normal hammer hit. I think i got it once in testing, but only once. I would guess that it comes out only when the hammer hits the ground, which may mean that you would only be able to hit it by timing it while punishing techs or rolls or if they walked into it at the right time. needs more testing.

 

[Artimus]

Recording a lot this weekend. Will report anything I find odd/quirky/new.

All in all, GDubs feels awesome to play.

 

[Oracle]

you're coming to the fwc? sick! find me and we'll get some games in

 

[Yung Mei]

GNW's new dash attack is stupid, the old one was better

 

[Juushichi]

I'm actually pretty partial to this one now.

The later frames of DA seem to hit behind still, if that's what you are missing.

 

[Yung Mei]

it makes DACUS a true combo now, but idk, its less satisfying to hit now (plus, dash attack comboing into dash attack if they missed the tech was the best thing ever)

 

[Metmetm3t]

they missed the tech

I wish I played against the people you do.

 

[Yung Mei]

even if they get the tech, wouldnt it hit?

 

[Artimus]

Also, his new dash attack is amazing. Not that I don't miss the dash lock nonsense, but that forward hit opens up more options imo. Played for a while today, and reading a missed tech with a spaced DACUS will drag/bounce (weight/percent dependent) them at just the right angle for a slightly charged u-smash. Kills mad early, even on a stage like FD. On a side note, being able to waveland out of FJ D-air is the best thing since white bread. Approaching with D-air on a tech-read and wavelanding to whatever seems to be pretty safe. I mix between FJ n-air/d-air/f-air waveland and the chef cancel for immediate up-b's.

I also tried thousands of times to get the groundbounce D-smash to no avail. I'm not saying it isn't possible, but unreliable at best. Super bacon can kill off the top of some stages at high percent after an up-b if you see the DI.

Probably common knowledge by now, but just in case anyone didn't know DACUS got even better.

dat tech roll tho

Not going to FWC, but I am making it to LTC.

 

[Yung Mei]

i hate all of you for liking the new dash attack

 

[Juushichi]

Tip:

Hold up/down when you use Chef and you'll get the top most and lower most trajectories.

 

[Metmetm3t]

Part 1:

even if they get the tech, wouldnt it hit?

Yea, there are lots of times when DAttack>DAttack works. But the real question is why did you do 9 damage dash attack when 16 damage Fair is a thing?

Part 2:
So decided to break down the statistics on Judgement so you can really see whats going on.

There are 72 unique setups for SideB: (1>2 even, 1>2 odd, 1>3 even, 1>3 odd, .... ect.). I disregarded duplicates because they mean the same thing when you are focusing only on the next hammer, but it's worth saying that there are actually 144 combinations. Among those there are 6 options that lead to 50/50's, 30 that lead to 3-ways, 30 that lead to 4-ways, and 6 that leave a 5 way guess.

That's 1/12 for 50/50, 5/12 for 3-Way, 5/12 for 4-Way, and 1/12 for 5-Way
* it's important to note that there is no way to get a 50/50 with odd numbers or a 5-Way with even numbers.

Not all setups are created equal, of coarse, and it would be a little bit overkill to break down the likelihood of every different 3-Way. But y'all should be able to see that even with this buff, it's still always a guess. And the favorable guesses are still quite rare. A 1/3 chance of either getting a 1, 3, or 9, is still statistically a bad guess even with 9 on the table. On top of that any 4-Way or 5-Way guess is as good as pure random and they account for half of the chart.

Part 3:
A friend of mine came up with the new official name for short hop double bacon. I think you will all agree that a better name is I-Hop and I-Hopping.

 

[Emg3]

I-Hopping!!!!

 

[Yung Mei]

i vote yes for i hopping

 

[Metmetm3t]

Up angled chef is kinda good against recoveries.

 

[Juushichi]

+1 for I-Hopping.

 

[Artimus]

I like the think of Ramsay. He always seems to piss people off like bacon web does. So can we call edgeguarding with bacon getting Ramsay'd?
+1 I-Hopping.

 

[Metmetm3t]

G&W&L # 3. Just going over the changelog

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

I love the video, darkm3tr01d. Well done!

One change I would like to see for G&W is a Three Dot system:
1) One Dot gives a 1, 4, or a 7. (Or 1/2/3)
2) Two dots give a 2, 5, or an 8. (Or 4/5/6)
3) Three dots give a 3, 6, or a 9. (Or 7/8/9)

This would add even more predictability to what his next Judgement might be. It would still be random, but less random than the current Two Dot system. The only problem I see with this is that 9's would be FAR easier to get, so a couple of individual number nerfs (especially to 9) would be necessary in order to implement a Three Dot system.

 

[Squirrely]

In case this was over-looked, I did a fairly detailed run-down of all possible combinations pertaining to Judgement possibilities and odds above.

 

[Squirrely]

I love the video, darkm3tr01d. Well done!

One change I would like to see for G&W is a Three Dot system:
1) One Dot gives a 1, 4, or a 7. (Or 1/2/3)
2) Two dots give a 2, 5, or an 8. (Or 4/5/6)
3) Three dots give a 3, 6, or a 9. (Or 7/8/9)

This would add even more predictability to what his next Judgement might be. It would still be random, but less random than the current Two Dot system. The only problem I see with this is that 9's would be FAR easier to get, so a couple of individual number nerfs (especially to 9) would be necessary in order to implement a Three Dot system.

I don't think this would make it easier to get any number, let alone a nine, as this system, as well as any system that informs you what you will or will not be getting in the future, doesn't change the original mechanic.

That is, you have an equal chance of getting any of the 9 possibilities, aside from the last two results.

Hell, it could flat out TELL you what your next number will be but that doesn't change the fact that it was randomly picked out of seven numbers and will be random each time. That said, as predictability goes up, play-style will change.
And it will be less unpredictable and therefor less fun.

 

[SpiderMad]

And I think someone else mentined odds and evens sync up with odds all working better on shield or something

 

[Metmetm3t]

And it will be less unpredictable and therefor less fun.

Fun is relative, but if I wanted to play slot machines I'd go to the boats. I made a post here outlining what I think is the next logical step in creating the ideal competitive Judgement.

And I think someone else mentined odds and evens sync up with odds all working better on shield or something

"Better" on shield depends on a lot of things. 3 and 9 are the only numbers with potential to break a shield and 5, being multi-hit, could catch someone trying to punish too fast. But only 7, 8, and 9 have enough shield push to call "safe" and even 7 can be punished by a tether grab, projectile or sufficiency big hitbox. Not to mention the senario's created when the oppoenent is near the edge of a platform.

Statistically, odds are more likely to work out against shields, but I would hesitate to recommend using Judgement to create safe block strings. One last thing to consider is that the hitbox is high and a run up Side-B isn't really viable so many characters will be more inclined to just hit you out of the air instead of waiting in their shield.