PYP Mafia - Game Ova

[ranmaru]

EBWOP:

(In the last PYP he mentioned mafia being non-interested in the D0 phase but it's odd that he's showing the same traits here while being a proponent of nightplay and not vanilla play)

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I don't see why you try to bring up statistics to me when I tell you that I prefer vanilla simply because I'd prefer people looking more at their actions during the day, since that's the information we can see with our own eyes, instead of guessing (possibly with wifom thrown in) with night actions and looking at night kills. I think this should be good reasoning enough. I mean we just came from a Maven game that had Vult*scum cleared by Nabe. That wouldn't happen in a Vanilla game.

Now what are your reads Ryu? How are you reading me?

Looking into you right now and others who pressed for a vanilla game. You were the main one who stuck out to me, might be something we do not see eye to eye on. I value day play as well I just recognize town loses 70% of the time in vanilla game and you seem perfectly ok with those odds right now or rather seem to not see it as an issue. Could you clarify why this is the case? I don't care what game we came from, I know this from almost a decade of mafia, PRs balance the game out because it is inherently scum sided by a large margin. I want you to address this.

Trying to delve into where Soup is going with all of this. He is really aimless right now and while he questions people reading me as town, I still have nothing on his direction in the broader scope of the game.

Ok with Laundry and Ryker right now.

Gheb is being stubborn and not interested in a direction like that.

Maven need to reread how and why he pushed what he did.

Zen...idk need to reread that as well off hand, some point she made to push his direction but I kind of wonder with the changes to his list how it came to be how it was.

 

[ranmaru]

I just stated (a clarification, mind you) why bro. I definitely think it's something we don't see eye to eye on and I can understand and respect that. I feel like you just are ignoring my reasoning here and you talk past it with 'I value it as well but..." The statistics don't matter to me because what matters to me is my personal experiences with the games I've played. (Most of that I've won) You have to see that I was purely trying to pick out the best role for town and weigh the options, and I even came to the conclusion that Detective was a good fit. Now, to make things clear. When I say I prefer Vanilla game, I mean I prefer a simpler game, and I don't mind a few PR's to balance scum. I do mind an entire PR game unless it's an OS game. (Time Travellers anyone?)

I want to ask, what do you mean 'I don't care what game we came from?', what relevance does that have with what you are bringing up?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I just stated (a clarification, mind you) why bro. I definitely think it's something we don't see eye to eye on and I can understand and respect that. I feel like you just are ignoring my reasoning here and you talk past it with 'I value it as well but..." The statistics don't matter to me because what matters to me is my personal experiences with the games I've played. (Most of that I've won) You have to see that I was purely trying to pick out the best role for town and weigh the options, and I even came to the conclusion that Detective was a good fit. Now, to make things clear. When I say I prefer Vanilla game, I mean I prefer a simpler game, and I don't mind a few PR's to balance scum. I do mind an entire PR game unless it's an OS game. (Time Travellers anyone?)

I want to ask, what do you mean 'I don't care what game we came from?', what relevance does that have with what you are bringing up?

Previous game we were in.

We messed up as a whole as town.

 

[ranmaru]

Oh that makes sense now. Got it. Now you know that is an example why you can't simply rely on roles by themselves, which is what always annoys *me*. I think a balance of the two is important actually.

 

[ranmaru]

Now Ryu, I'm interested on your take on Maven and look forward to your re-read on him. I want you to respond to my read on him.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

....
You spent the whole of pregame disagreeing with me and im the thing you dont disagree with now?

I'm saying that you being null is the only one of Zen's reads I agree with.

What are your reads on Ryker, Ryu, and Maven?

Where are you in terms of reads? I have no bead on you.

I have Ryker as town via his D0 play. Most of the credit I give him comes from him calling out Laundry's Poisoner bull**** for now.
Ryu is null-town to me ... like he almost always is.
Maven I have as town. I like how he argued for ST and most people in here are still terrlible at reading him for some reason. Slot hasn't done anything wrong so far.

Main suspicion for now would be Laundry but I gotta read up first. There's a bunch of big posts on p6 that I need to dig through and digest before I jusp to any conclusions.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think we should lynch Laundry toDay.

Vote Laundry

His push against soup is bad. His reasoning on why he reads Ryker as town seems very fabricated. He's completely blowing my complaints about the poor decision making of town out of proportion by mislabeling it as an outburst. Seems like a lame excuse to jump ship in case a mislynch is about to happen. He also tried to get scum a poisoner in addition to being a key factor in preventing them from getting ST. That's a lot of anti-town in very short amount of time.

I'm OK with Ryker, Maven and Ryu for now.
Zen and soup are null to me in an unproblematic way.
Orbo is null to me in a problematic way.
Laundry can die.

I can see where Maven is coming from regarding Ran. Doesn't really help me get an idea on how to read Ran though.

That's it for now.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Vote Orbo

Zen, Laundry, Gheb, can I get a read on Ran?

 

[Orboknown]

Im going to the field tomorrow morning so I'll be v/la till wednesday

 

[Vult Redux]

Vote Count: 1.2
Maven [1*]: Ranmaru
Soup [1]: Laundry
Laundry [1]: Gheb
Orbo [1]: Ryker
Not voting [5]: Maven, Orbo, Soup, Ryu, Xivii

With 9 players, it takes 5 votes to lynch.
With the current vote spread, Maven will be lynched at the deadline (Thursday, 11:59PM EST).

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Im going to the field tomorrow morning so I'll be v/la till wednesday

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

I agree with Soup's #223 and #228.

I don't see it as any different than anyone else who was arguing on roles. I would agree if he were more present in D0 and actually discussing why the role he'd want would be best. Yet, he wasn't, and I think it's because he did not care to progress the game state. (In the last PYP) He pushes me and soup (not sure who else preferred decoy) simply for wanting Decoy, which shows he's not looking at the whole play, but just one facet of our play. His reasoning to push is indeed, weak as you say.

I'm starting to better about Soup. He's making sense to me.

Who do you scumread beyond Maven? Give me a second and third read.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Okay, but you didn't answer what I asked about Ryker and instead just deflected the pressure onto me. I don't understand how this is a hard concept for you.

Because you didn't direct it at me until far after the fact, nor did you attempt to redirect my attention until after I had reaffirmed my distaste for you. The entire phrasing of your post was not "hey Laundry, answer this", it was "this is questionable about Laundry" followed by an open request for the game to talk about it. If you wanted me to talk about it, why not simply say "hey Laundry, talk to me about your Ryker read"? The way you went about it comes across far more likely as baiting and that makes your entire approach questionable from my point of view. I can think of a lot of people that want to bait me given my history as a more emotional and reactionary player on this site.

You're not someone to miss details usually, I really don't understand your angle. You say I wasn't talking about anything but mechanics but I only contributed at the angle of which was being talked about, which was pretty much mechanics. There was nothing else that couldn't just wait until D1, but for some reason you're being arrogant or impatient or maybe both. It's not a good look for you to instantly assume you know my prerogative and then tell me that I wasn't doing anything.

Can you answer me about your read on Ryker from D0 yet?

I didn't expect people to scumhunt but the ones that did fill out the townier half of my readslist for a reason. When people are scumhunting or building the foundation of their scumhunting on a day when it's not the prerogative, they're probably town. That'd be the instinctual townie thing to do: read people, hunt scum, make decisions as well. The people that were visibly doing it (Ryker, Ran, Ruy, myself, somewhat Orbo) come off as townie as a result. The people that didn't, ergo, are not necessarily mafia (see: my Zen read) but are people worth investigating at the start of the day.

What leads me to you is PoE coupled with my skepticism of your early game. I town-lean the 4 not-me slots I mention at least+Maven, who I think might be town based on my perceptions of his Tailor push. I have nothing questionable on Zen yet so I don't want to push him. I'm confused on how to handle Gheb at this exact moment. That's every slot in the game but you. You could've been higher up this list but you shared Zen's sentiments for an all vanilla game (an argument that I have said I think scum!Zen could make), pushed the Decoy towards the end of the phase as a safe option, and avoided taking a stance on my BP Guard plan. The last point of which makes me think that your initial lack of a stance--constantly opting for the safe option--is not a thing that naturally happened but is a result of you avoiding taking stances. From a player with a history of playing scum as detached--safe--it gives me reasonable doubt of you being town.

Since I know you're going to look at that and not reach the point I'm trying to make (given that you just did it in this post), here it is clearly:
-I think you are opting for the safe option in pretty much everything you do--you didn't scumread, your role preference was based on what you believe was the safest option (on which you flipped between 3 different options), and you refused to take a stance on my bp guard plan. There is a distinct lack of stances here from a slot with a history of picking the safe route as scum.
-I think that your weird post about me in D0 was an attempt to bait me.

For those reasons, I think you are the most suspicious slot in the game save for Gheb, and I'm voting you first as a result.

As for Ryker, I had a gutread he was town but didn't want to get ahead of myself when he hadn't done anything with his approach on me yet. In return, I want you to talk about anyone but me for a total of 3 posts.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Not saying you can't change your mind but...where did the original point go and what did you expect to do with it?

Spoilers: I changed my mind.

I'm throwing out Maven's support of it as I think it comes off far more likely as a crackpot theorist trying too hard to remain a step ahead of his enemies than a manipulating scum.

Here's where--in the original analysis of the tailor wagon in an attempt to find mafia on it.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

EBWOP: And if you want to know where the point went, did you ignore the fact that I thought Gheb was scum and only came back because I didn't understand his reasoning for outburst but figured that there was a reasoning for it? Which of us is missing details here?

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

If I were like Laundry, Ran/Ryu would both be town but I don't think it's that simple. Ran is a gut feeling of town over Ryu because he's more plain about his approach while Ryu isn't as dense as people make him out to be. There's nothing from Ran that bothers me but also just not enough to really solidify him as town. I didn't like D0 at all and I was looking to get past by it and hopefully push people to just move on, which is why I really had no issue just dropping poisoner talk.

Zen I have somewhat mutual trust in, a lot more than Laundry at least. He's made good points and being straight-faced the whole time, but I strongly disagree with his read on laundry if it's not clear by now.

It's strange where I'm at right now because I liked Laundry because of his stance on Maven and now he's gone and flipped and did nothing with it. I don't know how to really read that if I think laundry as scum but I doubt any scum member would be that transparent about their partner and try to force a town-read unto them, so if Laundry is scum then I don't maven is, even I don't like both.

Everyone else I'm okay with or I don't have enough of a strong opinion to want to speak about it.

My understanding of your reads from this post:

Town: Zen
Town-lean: Ran
Null: Everyone else
Scum: Laundry, Maven

While you did what I asked, I'm a bit unimpressed when everyone else in the game has far more fleshed out reads than this.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

EBWOP: And if you do think I am scum, where's your vote?

 

[Xivii]

Consider my vote on Orbo.

My reads have shifted a bit.

My read on soup and Ran are the same.

I'm less sure about Laundry, but I still feel more positive than negative about him. I really like that he came up with the BP claim idea. That only served to optimize town's pick whether we had bg or not. It's not enough for a town read, but it's enough for me to want to keep him around. My only real qualm with Laundry is his Orbo read (same for Maven). Neither of them have any reason behind them. Ryker is a town lean. Ruy is still null but I love that he is posting. Gheb I don't see worth pursuing right now.

Maven is a scum lean. Orbo is a scum read.
Actually Vote: Orbo

Instinct: soup, Ran
Mystic: Laundry, Ryker, Ryu, Gheb
Valor: Maven, Orbo

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

#HBC | Laundry you said you'd prefer poisoner if there's no AG claim, yet after everyone claimed you never brought it up, but still mentioned your plan as being completed. Why? We have several days left for the deadline

Because I came off the Poisoner altogether. My point of view on the Poisoner was that while I assumed we had the Bus Driver, it wasn't confirmed we did and scum may not share my view on the Bus Driver. They could've given us one of the investigatives and, ergo, the Poisoner was effectively worthless. It gave us a risk that I was willing to take with the potential for a good reward. Nobody shared that point of view, so I backed off and defaulted to Detective regardless of that plan. The plan itself was completed and my point of view was better shaped but, despite the fact that one of the three roles it beats (and likely two), nobody wanted it. I wasn't going to get it. I defaulted to Detective as a result.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

My only real qualm with Laundry is his Orbo read (same for Maven). Neither of them have any reason behind them.

That feels a little inaccurate. I can concede the reasoning is weak; I can't concede the reasoning isn't there. I have my reasons for thinking both are town but both are not very strong--that's why I think both are leans rather than hard town like other players.

 

[Xivii]

Actually I took another look at Ryu v Ran. I feel it's t v t. Reminds me of Ryu v Ran from last game.

btw ranmaru do you have a read on me yet?

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

I think we should lynch Laundry toDay.

Vote Laundry

His push against soup is bad.

Justify this rather than saying it's bad. I'm one of the few people in this game that is justifying my reads beyond simple generalizations. You're in a bad light now and I want more from you.

His reasoning on why he reads Ryker as town seems very fabricated.

Uh
huh

He's completely blowing my complaints about the poor decision making of town out of proportion by mislabeling it as an outburst.

I've seen you go into that self-righteous mode exactly once: when you were scum in Koopa vs Kefka. Despite that, I don't understand it. It is a desperation move but I can't understand what triggered the desperation. It's enough to give me pause, though, hence why I backed off. Why is this hard to understand? Explain it to me, Gheb.

He also tried to get scum a poisoner in addition to being a key factor in preventing them from getting ST. That's a lot of anti-town in very short amount of time.

Back to this again. You can argue that the Poisoner is anti-town; I backed off on that regardless. I will maintain that throwing out results and just not using them is more anti-town than pushing for the Poisoner ever was. That's not how it works.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Color me intrigued when both the people I consider scum come out of the gates thinking I'm scum.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Vote Orbo

Zen, Laundry, Gheb, can I get a read on Ran?

I already gave one:

Ran's the only other person who even appeared to scumhunt on D0 so he's mostly on here for that reason. He looks like typical Ran. I'm not as convinced of him as I am of Ruy and Drew but the fact that he's one of the few that took initiative in D0 to find scum is enough for now. We'll see how he continues.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

#HBC | Ryker

Alright, time for you to do some work bud. Justify Orbo as "poking from the side"--why in particular is it scummy here?

Xivii

Your Orbo and Maven reads dropped from null to scum. Don't just drop them down there (and Gheb up too) without mentioning why. Since it's clearly something you disagree with me on--to the point of it altering your read on me--I want something more from it than "it dropped xd"

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

I'm not necessarily faulting the Orbo wagon (he's a notoriously quiet guy who lives in the background, that warrants inspection regardless) but I don't like two votes appearing on it for weak reasons (Ryker) to no reasons (Zen).

I find it highly amusing that the two people I called scummy in D0 opened D1 by calling me scum. That's one hell of an indirect OMGUS and it definitely doesn't do them favors when one uses bland generalizations to call me suspicious and the other prefers to talk around me when he wants to talk to me but won't drop a vote.

I would like more from Maven. He is town-lean but it's easily the weaker of the two and his disappearance through D0 is cause for more interrogation.

Updated readslist:

Town: Ryker, Ran, Ruy, Laundry
Town-lean: Orbo, Zen
Null: Maven
Scum: Soup, Gheb

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

EBWOP: Continuation on the Orbo wagon thing, I want more from Ryker and Zen before it impacts my read.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

#HBC | Ryker

Alright, time for you to do some work bud. Justify Orbo as "poking from the side"--why in particular is it scummy here?

Uhhhh, no.

I'm not going back through the thread right now, or any time today in all likelihood if we're being real. Also, you're going to facilitate this by playing Overwatch with me until late into the night.

Can you remember anything he's adamant about? I don't. I could be wrong. Feel free to show me. I also don't have a reason in particular that it's scummy aside from general lack of commitment being a safe stance that doesn't push anything forward defaulting to scum favored. My vote's on him because I have no reason to think he's town and no reason to think it's going to change, especially with a V/LA until ****ing Wednesday.

I don't want to chase Gheb right now either. I am not as confident on Ran town as others are at the moment.

@Maven89 what's your read on Gheb? What's your read on Soup?

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Laundry vs Soup is fun to read.

ranmaru what do you think about Orbo right now?

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Wall battles aren't my favorite thing to do.

Because you didn't direct it at me until far after the fact, nor did you attempt to redirect my attention until after I had reaffirmed my distaste for you. The entire phrasing of your post was not "hey Laundry, answer this", it was "this is questionable about Laundry" followed by an open request for the game to talk about it. If you wanted me to talk about it, why not simply say "hey Laundry, talk to me about your Ryker read"? The way you went about it comes across far more likely as baiting and that makes your entire approach questionable from my point of view. I can think of a lot of people that want to bait me given my history as a more emotional and reactionary player on this site.

isn't this nitpicking? I asked you about Ryker and for you to explain why/how you came to your read, but also the phrasing. When I say something doesn't make sense and I direct it at you, I can't imaging you could interpret it as anything else but wanting your attention.

Since I know you're going to look at that and not reach the point I'm trying to make (given that you just did it in this post), here it is clearly:
-I think you are opting for the safe option in pretty much everything you do--you didn't scumread, your role preference was based on what you believe was the safest option (on which you flipped between 3 different options), and you refused to take a stance on my bp guard plan. There is a distinct lack of stances here from a slot with a history of picking the safe route as scum.
-I think that your weird post about me in D0 was an attempt to bait me.

• I've told you and I think I told everyone else that mechanics aren't my thing and I wasn't taking anything out of D0. I really just wanted it done with , because I really believe that even the dumbest scum can take on and on about role speculations or how to use them, it doesn't really do anything for me. The only reason I have prior suspect to you is ironically because you offered some reads, while other players mostly chose to talk about the roles instead. I again have to ask if you're being arrogant or impatient this game because I feel you're holding me exclusively to weak meta about how my lack of stances means that I'm playing "safe." I really don't get this argument, like you're trying to goad me into action for no reason despite how much I've contributed. I refused to take a stance on the BP plan because I didn't care and I didn't like your approach.

• What does that even mean? You're right? I was baiting you. I wanted to get a response out of you because I questioned what you were doing and how you were doing it. You say that you're known to be emotional or whatever but I fail to see how that's a point. I wasn't attacking you, I wasn't looking to get under your skin. That feels like an excuse more than anything, something I'd allude to myself if I was scum if you want to talk about my tendencies; liking to only talk about my reads if they're solidified or they feel worthwhile to talk more about is another one. Are you ignoring that aspect of me if you're going to base your dislike mostly on meta? That's how I'm really reading it, and you've played enough with me to understand that. I hate having to tell you 'this is how I play' but if you're gonna make it about meta then I will too, even if I think that's pointless.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

My understanding of your reads from this post:

Town: Zen
Town-lean: Ran
Null: Everyone else
Scum: Laundry, Maven

While you did what I asked, I'm a bit unimpressed when everyone else in the game has far more fleshed out reads than this.

Not completely true but alright. I don't want to throw caution to the wind about something I'm not fully positive in so I don't like calling someone scum or not scum unless I'm decently confident about it. Right now I'm feeling confident that you're scum but I don't think you're scum with maven, and this is again lack of foresight from you because I said in the post you quoted that I don't think you two are aligned.

I think Ryker and Gheb are fine, not anyone I'd lynch today. I think Gheb's overreaction is better than worse for me if I were to think about it. I have trust in Zen and decent trust in Ranmaru, and that's just a fancy way of saying Town and Town-lean for both, as you put it. Don't really know where to put Orbo, hasn't done enough in my eyes to warrant anything. Ryu remains null until he does something more, and I disagee with Maven's response to me as to why he has.

I hope that doesn't need to be a full read-list for you to understand what I mean.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Spoilers: I changed my mind.



Here's where--in the original analysis of the tailor wagon in an attempt to find mafia on it.

It's a moot point now. What do you think about Maven as of late? You marked him as null suddenly.

EBWOP: And if you do think I am scum, where's your vote?

I wanted to flesh out my read with you further through interaction before I threw down a vote.

Vote: Laundry

 

[Vult Redux]

Vote Count: 1.3
Orbo [2*]: Ryker, Xivii
Laundry [2]: Gheb, Soup
Maven [1]: Ranmaru
Soup [1]: Laundry
Not voting [3]: Maven, Orbo, Ryu

With 9 players, it takes 5 votes to lynch.
With the current vote spread, Orbo will be lynched at the deadline (Thursday, 11:59PM EST).

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

What does that even mean? You're right? I was baiting you....

I wasn't attacking you, I wasn't looking to get under your skin.

What? That is what baiting someone is meant to do.........

I think you use that term differently than me. The rest of the situation not withstanding, I would definitely define your comments toward Alex as aggressive. Why exactly do you trust Zen, btw? I don't think I've seen you explain it yet.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

What? That is what baiting someone is meant to do.........

I think you use that term differently than me. The rest of the situation not withstanding, I would definitely define your comments toward Alex as aggressive. Why exactly do you trust Zen, btw? I don't think I've seen you explain it yet.

I explained it a little in my #225, saying that he's made good points and been straight-faced so far. I haven't seen any malicious intent in his posts even if they're not exactly the most in-depth.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Uhhhh, no.

I'm not going back through the thread right now, or any time today in all likelihood if we're being real. Also, you're going to facilitate this by playing Overwatch with me until late into the night.

Can you remember anything he's adamant about? I don't. I could be wrong. Feel free to show me. I also don't have a reason in particular that it's scummy aside from general lack of commitment being a safe stance that doesn't push anything forward defaulting to scum favored. My vote's on him because I have no reason to think he's town and no reason to think it's going to change, especially with a V/LA until ****ing Wednesday.

I don't want to chase Gheb right now either. I am not as confident on Ran town as others are at the moment.

I don't see why he makes a point of saying "hey guys let's not start d1 until we've finished up all these discussions". I don't see why he tries to ensure that you have everything on me and I don't see why he asks for more from Maven as mafia. That's about it. Regardless, I didn't ask you why you think he's null, I asked you why you thought he was scum. I want better from you if you're going to slap a vote down on a guy that's not even going to be able to respond to the pressure for 3 days.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

isn't this nitpicking? I asked you about Ryker and for you to explain why/how you came to your read, but also the phrasing. When I say something doesn't make sense and I direct it at you, I can't imaging you could interpret it as anything else but wanting your attention.

No, you asked for the thread to "help you understand". Here:

I understand some people though and why this matters. While I don't like laundry's angle I understand it, it's just everything else. His Ryker read for example is really weird, despite their experience with each other. It reads as cautious and not even really a full opinion, just basically something that results to null saying it's a gutread on town but there's no basis. What? I can't really follow a gutread if you say that's it's not based on anything or not concrete. I'd expect something more solid from anyone if they're going to throw a read out there. I'm further confused by what he meany by this line:



It's confusing to me. If it wasn't important why bring it up? What reasoning? Help me understand.

This is your exact post since you don't seem to be remembering it clearly. This isn't directed at me. You talk about me and conclude with an open question to the thread. You didn't try to poke me to respond until D1 started nearly two pages later (and I definitely have posts in between this time). If you had wanted to have a discussion of me, this post would have been constructed like this:

#HBC | Laundry

I don't really understand your Ryker read. It seems a bit cautious and I don't understand why you brought it up. Can you flesh it out a bit more? This statement in particular:


Looks off to me. Explain it.

Notice the difference?

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

EBWOP: You may call it nitpicking but I don't like it when a guy talks around me and then uses my lack of response to justify calling me scum.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Laundry, can you summarize the issue you have with soup in a sentence or two? I'm not sure if I'll have the time to dig into your whole exchange in the next few days.