PYP Mafia - Game Ova

[#HBC | Laundry]

Laundry, can you summarize the issue you have with soup in a sentence or two? I'm not sure if I'll have the time to dig into your whole exchange in the next few days.

Definitely not. You don't get to call a case bad and then ask me to summarize it if you've somehow already reached an opinion. Flesh out why it's bad and I'll do this for you.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

So I guess you don't actually want soup lynched then.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

I've told you and I think I told everyone else that mechanics aren't my thing and I wasn't taking anything out of D0. I really just wanted it done with , because I really believe that even the dumbest scum can take on and on about role speculations or how to use them, it doesn't really do anything for me. The only reason I have prior suspect to you is ironically because you offered some reads, while other players mostly chose to talk about the roles instead. I again have to ask if you're being arrogant or impatient this game because I feel you're holding me exclusively to weak meta about how my lack of stances means that I'm playing "safe." I really don't get this argument, like you're trying to goad me into action for no reason despite how much I've contributed. I refused to take a stance on the BP plan because I didn't care and I didn't like your approach.

You're not doing yourself favors with this paragraph. Point by point:

I really just wanted it done with , because I really believe that even the dumbest scum can take on and on about role speculations or how to use them, it doesn't really do anything for me.

Congratulations, this is why I'm skeptical about you. This is pretty much all of your D1 posts beyond apparently indirect attempts to bait me.

The only reason I have prior suspect to you is ironically because you offered some reads, while other players mostly chose to talk about the roles instead.

You're calling a guy scummy for scumhunting when it was optional. That's hella suspect, especially when you attempt to call it scummy for being "arrogant or impatient"--easy terms to call it when it wasn't necessary.

I again have to ask if you're being arrogant or impatient this game because I feel you're holding me exclusively to weak meta about how my lack of stances means that I'm playing "safe."

I don't use meta as a pure reason to read someone. I find your actions scummy; I find them more scummy because of your history of doing **** like this as scum.

like you're trying to goad me into action for no reason despite how much I've contributed.

Your entire contribution D0 was talking about the safest possible option and throwing out weak attempts to bait me. From my eyes, you're one of the few people who I didn't get a feeling of scumhunting from. Yes, I want more out of you, as I feel your contribution is lacking. It's just for actual reasons rather than nothing as you insist.

After all, you are the guy that did say "scum could talk about roles forever".

I refused to take a stance on the BP plan because I didn't care and I didn't like your approach.

I would've liked actual discussion on the latter point. That's specifically why I asked for it.

Regardless, I gave you a response to your ****ty "why are you trying to lead town?" post. You never followed up on it. Color me skeptical when you use it as a reason to scumread me when you didn't do the legwork.

In summary (hi gheb): You think I'm scummy for scumhunting because it's "arrogant or impatient" and think that my BP Guard plan was an attempt to control town (when it was clearly asking for town's opinion and if it was something they wanted to do) and didn't continue the discussion when I did give you something but are now using it as a reason to scumspect me. You were doing yourself favors soup, but these reasons aren't holding up.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Not completely true but alright. I don't want to throw caution to the wind about something I'm not fully positive in so I don't like calling someone scum or not scum unless I'm decently confident about it. Right now I'm feeling confident that you're scum but I don't think you're scum with maven, and this is again lack of foresight from you because I said in the post you quoted that I don't think you two are aligned.

You think both of us are scum. I read that you don't think we're scum together but if you made a list, both would fall under the scum section. Don't get pedantic with me.

I think Ryker and Gheb are fine, not anyone I'd lynch today. I think Gheb's overreaction is better than worse for me if I were to think about it. I have trust in Zen and decent trust in Ranmaru, and that's just a fancy way of saying Town and Town-lean for both, as you put it. Don't really know where to put Orbo, hasn't done enough in my eyes to warrant anything. Ryu remains null until he does something more, and I disagee with Maven's response to me as to why he has.

I hope that doesn't need to be a full read-list for you to understand what I mean.

Do a better job explaining yourself next time.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

It's a moot point now. What do you think about Maven as of late? You marked him as null suddenly.

You're using it to call me wishy washy and justify it as a reason to scumread me. How the **** does that become moot.

I want to reread Maven so I dropped him down. I feel like the pass I'm giving him doesn't hold up to merit and I want to better analyze his d1 post.

I wanted to flesh out my read with you further through interaction before I threw down a vote.

Vote: Laundry

And yet I'm the "cautious" one. You've talked a lot but at no point have I gotten the feeling of how your read has progressed on me. It seems your logic is still based on D0. Yet, somehow, you've reached a point where you'd slap a vote down when it looks to me as if nothing's changed in your reasons.

If I could vote you twice I would.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

So I guess you don't actually want soup lynched then.

Oh no, I want Soup lynched and if it were any other slot than Soup, I would've answered the question. I think you're scum and you called this case bad in the process of slapping a vote down on me. I asked for you to justify why it's bad and instead of doing that, you're now pulling a 180? I'm not buying it.

 

[Maven89]

1. I would have liked that answer in D0. When did you come to the decision of preferring poisoner by the way?

When I caught up and had time to think about how they likely wouldn't give us double doc

2. What *is* the small flag you say Gheb raised?

I said in the post, it's how insistent he was on super tailor and his reasoning for it.

3. You preferred poisoner, a role that is *stronger* then Decoy.

Not really, we know there's no AG so there's only a single PR it could be useful against, a PR that's one of the least likely they'd give us. It'd probably have been the smartest move. Decoy is useful against every PR that exists.

4. I would prefer a neutral game instead of a negative game. Poisoner would be one example of pushing us to the negative. Stating my role preference is VT shows that I'd prefer it this way. Yet, you are overlooking my own actions, as I did compromise to a role that can help make the game vanilla while doing nothing negative to the pr.

I'm not sure how poisoner is a negative, it just negates some PRs, making it like they both don't exist.

Maven89 what's your read on Gheb?

I'm liking him more and more

Meanwhile for Orbo, I just don't see why scum!Orbo posts these:

I still want to hear a little bit more from maven/ryker but thats about it

Ryker, Zen, and I were pretty much ready to move onto D1, he could've said nothing and let the day progress if he were mafia and no one would've likely batted an eye. Instead, he posts these to ensure we have all the information we'll need (which I don't begrudge him for, I would've liked more out of Maven myself, hence why I prodded him to hammer). That earned him some town points from me. Yeh, it's weak, so I'm not willing to call him full town, but at the moment I'm leaning towards that.

This seems really faked. I'm pretty sure you can understand why mafia would say "I want more information before i give a read" while at the same time not asking questions.

Consider my vote on Orbo.

My reads have shifted a bit.

My read on soup and Ran are the same.

I'm less sure about Laundry, but I still feel more positive than negative about him. I really like that he came up with the BP claim idea. That only served to optimize town's pick whether we had bg or not. It's not enough for a town read, but it's enough for me to want to keep him around. My only real qualm with Laundry is his Orbo read (same for Maven). Neither of them have any reason behind them. Ryker is a town lean. Ruy is still null but I love that he is posting. Gheb I don't see worth pursuing right now.

Maven is a scum lean. Orbo is a scum read.
Actually Vote: Orbo

Instinct: soup, Ran
Mystic: Laundry, Ryker, Ryu, Gheb
Valor: Maven, Orbo

Your scum leans are only the people who barely post? Is that the only reason? This is a ridiculously safe post.

 

[Maven89]

Vote: Laundry

His push against Soup is overblown and overwritten. For complaining about how Soup baited him, Laundry is clearly baiting Soup back. I haven't seen anything from Soup that seems pro-scum, I haven't seen much pro-town either, and I had no problem with Laundry's push back when he was pretending it was POE. Now he seems pretty goddamn adamant that Soup is playing it too safe, wasn't scumhunting during D0, and was baiting him. That's easily explained by Soup not liking mechanics (which he said from the start), not wanting to try and figure things out from it (which he said from the start and repeated to me early Day 1), and baiting Laundry because it's a perfectly viable strat to bait people. Laundry is quoting Soup's words back to him with a smiley face, is that not meant to annoy Soup? And Soup's baiting was mainly based on switching pronouns? No me gusta. If Laundry isn't scum with this push then he really let Soup get to him, because nothing about Laundry's push on Soup really feels natural.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

And with that I'm L-2.

#HBC | Ryker
@Xivii
ranmaru
#HBC | Red Ryu

You have 3 votes on me. I'm L-2 48 hours in. This is far more interesting than some wagon on a slot that won't be here for 3 days. Analyze it while I'm at work because I can 100% guarantee scum's on it.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

EBWOP: During your analysis, I want to hear which one you think is most likely to be scum.

From my point of view, I think Gheb and Soup's votes are scummy for different reasons. I think Maven's is actually the towniest of them: he sets up a clear expectation to call me scum. Compare his vote to Soup's long-winded and constantly shifting reasons or Gheb's lack of them and you'll see a stark difference.

Meanwhile, Soup has said I'm suspect because I scumhunted in D0. Despite that, he has called my scumhunting at different times: arrogant, impatient, wishy-washy, cautious, and nervous. None of that makes sense together, leading me to believe he's just making up whatever he thinks we'll stick and doesn't actually have a solid basis for calling me mafia. Gheb threw together a bunch of weak generalizations of my play, never explained them, then slapped a vote down. When asked to justify them, he appears to be trying to 180 onto the Soup side of the wagon instead of giving me what I want. I don't like either vote and feel more like bull**** mafia tactics to try to push ****ty wagons on me early D1.

That's my take on it thus far.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

This seems really faked. I'm pretty sure you can understand why mafia would say "I want more information before i give a read" while at the same time not asking questions.

I can. I called it weak for a reason. That said, rather than going for the more convoluted "man Orbo's sure pulling a fast one" argument, I'm taking the simpler explanation of "Orbo wants to have more information" until I see more. I'm not concerned about Orbo at the moment.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Vote: Laundry

His push against Soup is overblown and overwritten. For complaining about how Soup baited him, Laundry is clearly baiting Soup back. I haven't seen anything from Soup that seems pro-scum, I haven't seen much pro-town either, and I had no problem with Laundry's push back when he was pretending it was POE. Now he seems pretty goddamn adamant that Soup is playing it too safe, wasn't scumhunting during D0, and was baiting him. That's easily explained by Soup not liking mechanics (which he said from the start), not wanting to try and figure things out from it (which he said from the start and repeated to me early Day 1), and baiting Laundry because it's a perfectly viable strat to bait people. Laundry is quoting Soup's words back to him with a smiley face, is that not meant to annoy Soup? And Soup's baiting was mainly based on switching pronouns? No me gusta. If Laundry isn't scum with this push then he really let Soup get to him, because nothing about Laundry's push on Soup really feels natural.

His D0 play was nothing majorly scummy but after reaching a number of town-leans by the end of the phase, I was left with a rather defined picture of where I thought scum lay. I didn't like his initial approach nonetheless because it reminded me of how Soup prefers to play as mafia. His only attempts at interaction came after I made that comparison--but despite his attempts, he never actually chose to interact. His post about my Ryker read was never directed at me despite him apparently wanting me to comment on it and he never continued our discussion after I responded to him saying I was trying to lead the thread. This leads me to believe he did not in fact care about interacting with me--which especially makes his later justification for his vote on me ("I wanted to be more sure about my scumspect") seem invalid. He had the opportunity to respond to me in real time when his concerns about me were happening and elected to let that pass. For this reason I don't buy the "Soup doesn't prefer the mechanical posts" argument, as by interacting with me he would have a means of avoiding conversation about roles while still partaking in D0. He didn't do that, leaving me with a bad read on him as a result.

Furthermore, his vote on me is garbage. The basis for it seems to be the fact that I was scumhunting at a time where scumhunting was optional:

The only reason I have prior suspect to you is ironically because you offered some reads, while other players mostly chose to talk about the roles instead.

That in and of itself seems scummy. It gets worse when you listen to all the descriptions he has given my reads at this point in time: arrogant, wishy washy, impatient, cautious, nervous. Those aren't synonyms, leading me to believe his basis for calling me scummy is inconsistent within itself and that he's reaching for reasons to call my play scummy. That also leaves me with a bad read on him as a result.

I'm left with the conclusion that Soup is either playing extremely badly or he's mafia. My vote should tell you which way I lean on that.

~ Gheb ~ **** you i did it anyway here's your summary

 

[~ Gheb ~]

In summary (hi gheb): You think I'm scummy for scumhunting because it's "arrogant or impatient" and think that my BP Guard plan was an attempt to control town (when it was clearly asking for town's opinion and if it was something they wanted to do) and didn't continue the discussion when I did give you something but are now using it as a reason to scumspect me.

I still can't see exactly what all the posts you make about soup boil down to. All your summary of soup's play tells us is that you think his push against you is unjustified because he - perhaps unexpectedly to you - interpreted your play as scummy when you felt that couldn't possibly the case. At this rate I'll probably have to read through all of that crap anyway but suffice it to say for now that I'm not convinced. If contradicting your view of what's going on is all it takes for you to be alerted then it's no surprise that you always scumread the same people that happen to scumread you.

Also, I'd just like to remind you that keeping things concise in very much in your own interest and you should do it regardless of whether I ask you to or not. You actually do want soup to get lynched, right? 'Cause right now you're not doing a very good job at convincing people. Consider this me trying to cooperate with you, I'm offering you a chance that nobody else seems to be willing to.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I don't think the discussion between soup and Laundry will do us any good. Nothing fruitful has come out of it so far and I'm concerned about people staying out of the spotlight while people bust each other's heads with poor arguments that make both sides look bad.

Zen, Ryu and Ran in particular are people I want to hear their current stances about.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Did you really just try and nitpick my argument so much down to word choice? This is getting ridiculous

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Whoa, WHOA. Jesus christ. Stop yourself for a moment here before I want to start again because I really don't have time for this right now.

No, you asked for the thread to "help you understand". Here:

No I didn't.

I questioned your read and that usually means that you should be the one to respond. How did you manage to come to this conclusion? This isn't logical.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Furthermore, his vote on me is garbage. The basis for it seems to be the fact that I was scumhunting at a time wherescumhunting was optional:

No??? I was able to get a read on you because you offered reads and did things that weren't mostly null in my eyes. I said that. The more I talk about this the more I get tired of it. I didn't even want to argue walls with you! I just wanted a explanation on something simple and you took criticism and boiled it down to such a microscopic level that it can't possibly exist. I was trying to make sure I didn't just throw my vote down on you because I thought the way you worded something or the way you presented something was totally bunk. I wanted to give you a chance, that's why I criticized you. I know myself that i can be prone to be stupidly stubborn about something and to gain tunnel vision, and it generally doesn't help the thread. I agree with Gheb in that matter that us talking over each other will get us nowhere, and I won't do it anymore after this.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

And with that I'm L-2.

WHAT THE ****!?

Has Alex done something scummy enough to merit this while I was gone? Did I just miss something here?

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

I'm reading.

 

[ranmaru]

His reasoning on why he reads Ryker as town seems very fabricated.

Elaborate.

I can see where Maven is coming from regarding Ran.

Elaborate.

Who do you scumread beyond Maven? Give me a second and third read.

Developing. I agree with you Ryker needs to do more work before I can give a solid conclusion on him. Instead of asking for more from me you should talk to me about Maven. I think that's a better starting point. I will discuss your wagon in a bit.

ranmaru what do you think about Orbo right now?

Blatantly null.

btw ranmaru do you have a read on me yet?

Null. I agree with Laundry; need more from you on Maven and Orbo, especially Orbo.

I'm liking him more and more.

Elaborate.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Definitely not. You don't get to call a case bad and then ask me to summarize it if you've somehow already reached an opinion. Flesh out why it's bad and I'll do this for you.

Don't be an asscake.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Yes, I want more out of you, as I feel your contribution is lacking. It's just for actual reasons rather than nothing as you insist.

Bro, you could hold more water with a thimble than that argument. His contribution at the moment is one of the highest in the thread because he's actively pushing you.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

And yet I'm the "cautious" one. You've talked a lot but at no point have I gotten the feeling of how your read has progressed on me. It seems your logic is still based on D0. Yet, somehow, you've reached a point where you'd slap a vote down when it looks to me as if nothing's changed in your reasons.

If I could vote you twice I would.

*****, talking to you is like pulling teeth. You're being obnoxious to talk to and I can definitely see how you'd reach the conclusion that you won't improve.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Oh no, I want Soup lynched and if it were any other slot than Soup, I would've answered the question. I think you're scum and you called this case bad in the process of slapping a vote down on me. I asked for you to justify why it's bad and instead of doing that, you're now pulling a 180? I'm not buying it.

Calm. The ****. Down.

You're leaping to conclusions faster than I ever have. Trust the voice of experience and realize that you've centered the thread around yourself and you're looking through the lens of your own slot. I think you're town who is amazed that people can't see that you're town. Take a step back and reread your own posts in the thread.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

What is even going on with a Laundry wagon and a Orbo one?

Will reread and post when not on a lunch break and not watching the "killing joke" later tonight.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Your scum leans are only the people who barely post? Is that the only reason? This is a ridiculously safe post.

Pretty sure I'm in the same boat and have committed less. What's your read on me?

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

EBWOP: During your analysis, I want to hear which one you think is most likely to be scum.

From my point of view, I think Gheb and Soup's votes are scummy for different reasons. I think Maven's is actually the towniest of them: he sets up a clear expectation to call me scum. Compare his vote to Soup's long-winded and constantly shifting reasons or Gheb's lack of them and you'll see a stark difference.

Meanwhile, Soup has said I'm suspect because I scumhunted in D0. Despite that, he has called my scumhunting at different times: arrogant, impatient, wishy-washy, cautious, and nervous. None of that makes sense together, leading me to believe he's just making up whatever he thinks we'll stick and doesn't actually have a solid basis for calling me mafia. Gheb threw together a bunch of weak generalizations of my play, never explained them, then slapped a vote down. When asked to justify them, he appears to be trying to 180 onto the Soup side of the wagon instead of giving me what I want. I don't like either vote and feel more like bull**** mafia tactics to try to push ****ty wagons on me early D1.

That's my take on it thus far.

JF:HJFK:LASDHJFKLAHJSFKHASKJ"FHAS

I think Vote Maven is the SCUMMIEST of them. You've picked Gheb/Soup out to be scum already so of course he looks better.

Where in God's name is Gheb trying to 180? Because he asked you to summarize?

It's Day 1, wagons start out ****ty. I'm voting ****ing inactive Orbo and I didn't think you or Soup had anything on each other, but you're slowly but surely digging a grave with the way you're acting.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

No I didn't.

I questioned your read and that usually means that you should be the one to respond. How did you manage to come to this conclusion? This isn't logical.

No, the way your post is worded does look like an open question to the thread. I can see how he got that.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

This **** is absurd.

 

[ranmaru]

Laundry feels town to me. I see him asking good questions (ie zen reasoning, ryker not doing enough work, putting out his summary), explaining himself, and not backing down when called out on fakeness. I would say that he should have waited on Gheb to explain though as it'd help me read Gheb further. Laundry is putting in the most work here I can see. I think he believes his argument on Soup, but think he's wrong.

Maven is still suspicious to me. Here are his original scumpicks: "Gheb, Soup, Ranmaru." Now Maven pushes Laundry. His reasoning to even have Gheb as a scumpick is very weak, and I find it as posturing to seem like he has something. (Which he reverses) He also states he hasn't seen anything from Soup that seems pro-scum yet had him as a scumpick. Now he uses that against Laundry, and I find this inconsistent. I would understand his feelings if he stated this in that very post, because Soup was coming off the same way as he did after that page. (Lazy, reactive) Yet he hadn't. I am also not convinced by his reasoning that Laundry's post about Orbo is fake, and I find that (Maven stating that's really fake) to be the most malicious thing I've seen from anyone. My vote stays on him.

Gheb is null. I don't see anything convincing from Gheb's argument. Nothing I see from Laundry is suspicious and Gheb is not looking at the whole picture. I don't see how bad = scum, and I am not convinced by his point of blowing the complaint out of proportion. (Which seemed to fear monger people into switching, instead of using actual reasoning) I don't see how being a leading proponent against ST means anything, since it's a weak reason to consider anyone suspicious. I'm null on Gheb, and I don't get anything from his reads in general. They aren't really fleshed out, for example his ryu read, his maven read, his (me) read.

In general, I get the feeling Soup is being lazy, and reactive. I can't really pin it as townie or scummy, and I'd need more of a push from him somewhere (besides Laundry, because I did not even remember it until recently) to really garner his intentions. I really like some of his explanations and I can agree with them. I get a null-townie read from him. As stated above, I would think a scumSoup would be working harder to seem town than when he'd be town.

So I'd lean on Maven being the most likely scum here out of the three. I don't think think it's good to try to determine scum being on the wagon or not since it's only 3/5 and I wouldn't really look at anything until after a flip. Plus there are people who have yet to vote (like Ryu/Orbo).

 

[ranmaru]

#HBC | Laundry Talk to me about Soup. I'm getting the feel that Soup was more anti-town then actually malicious. To me a scum Soup is a posturing Soup, and I don't feel that here. I will give you the point that Soup was not proactive, but what would you expect of a Town Soup in this same scenario? You state that he's playing safely and that is what you'd expect of a scumSoup, and again, I want you to explain what you'd expect a TownSoup to do here. I think I can tell when Soup is scum. (Sometimes) Do you think this is more of a case of a misunderstanding between the two of you? (It seems like that to me) I would ask for you to sit back, and re-read your exchange with Soup.


Question: How does Maven set up an expectation to call you scum?

 

[Vult Redux]

Vote Count: 1.4
Laundry [3*]: Gheb, Soup, Maven
Maven [2]: Ranmaru, Ryker
Orbo [1]: Xivii
Soup [1]: Laundry
Not voting [2]: Orbo, Ryu

With 9 players, it takes 5 votes to lynch.
With the current vote spread, Laundry will be lynched at the deadline (Thursday, 11:59PM EST).

 

[ranmaru]

@Gheb How do you feel about Maven preferring Poisoner? How do you feel about Maven not even stating a role preference about that until after D0? Can you elaborate your read on Ryu (null town as always doesn't cut it for me)? Elaborate your read on me?

 

[ranmaru]

Maven89 Can you give me an updated reads list?
#HBC | Red Ryu Let me know what you think of the Laundry wagon when you get a chance.

 

[ranmaru]

I wanted to flesh out my read with you further through interaction before I threw down a vote.

Vote: Laundry

Talk to me about Laundry. I don't get your push on him right now. You state you wanted to flesh it out, so how exactly has it developed? (Meaning, I'd like more reasoning)

 

[ranmaru]

JF:HJFK:LASDHJFKLAHJSFKHASKJ"FHAS

It's Day 1, wagons start out ****ty. I'm voting ****ing inactive Orbo and I didn't think you or Soup had anything on each other, but you're slowly but surely digging a grave with the way you're acting.

What made you react in this way? (Underline and blue)

I don't see it that way (underlined) and I want your updated thoughts on Laundry and Gheb.

 

[ranmaru]

Also, tell me why you think Maven is scum.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Apologies if you think I'm being lazy, I'm just trying to be more precise. I don't really know, Ryker has got me thinking that maybe this is one just huge misunderstanding. He clearly sees something in Laundry that I do not and suffice to say I think he'd know him better than I would despite me having experience with him too. I think his viewpoint about Laundry makes sense about him being bothered that I don't townread him, and I don't think me repeating back my own logic at this point is doing me any good. You also seem to share the sentiment as Ryker about Laundry too in that regard, ranmaru

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

His conclusion is so obviously concerned with the fact he pre-ordained Soup and Gheb as scum.

Alex is town. He's Day 0 was great. He is however, a moron with a PoV that is locked around himself.

Gheb actually seems reasonable at this point. I don't have a massive problem with him.

 

[ranmaru]

Lol at that avatar change. I thought that was Axel for a moment even though Axel is J|Zen. (Who is that?) Also, answer me about Maven please.

Apologies if you think I'm being lazy, I'm just trying to be more precise. I don't really know, Ryker has got me thinking that maybe this is one just huge misunderstanding. He clearly sees something in Laundry that I do not and suffice to say I think he'd know him better than I would despite me having experience with him too. I think his viewpoint about Laundry makes sense about him being bothered that I don't townread him, and I don't think me repeating back my own logic at this point is doing me any good. You also seem to share the sentiment as Ryker about Laundry too in that regard, ranmaru

Alright, tell me your thoughts on the Laundry wagon?

I'm going to head off for now.