Promotion to Great Lord - Marth Strategy Notes

[Crawfish]

I never said a thing

 

[Emblem Lord]

How do you guys feel about dancing blade as an approach? Due to system changes, opponents cant just roll away for free. Its not safe, but the threat of follow up attacks in the DB sequence makes opponents stay in shield or hesitate to attempt a punish. 45 frames of RECOVERY. Abysmal. Still rolling means Marth is usually safe since thats about 30 frames or more his opponent is stuck in animation or RECOVERY. Thoughts?

Also, SH Bair...****ing legit.

Do it. Do it alot.

 

[Shaya]

You may remember a frequent play pattern for Marth in '10-11 (MikeHaze themed) was the whole dancing blade "approach". Dashing away or into them and then b-reversing the DB1 to get maximum spacing for it.
For the non-shield scenario (i.e. every time they're using commitment), the mid range DB usage is still the best "that" in the game.
Whatever "that" is.

I gotta use Bair more, the hitbox starting lower/sweeping up is one that's probably going to be giving me hits in a lot of scenarios where fair could/would whiff.

 

[Tenryuga]

What are my options to approach the opponent as Marth and what should I do when an opponent shields an Nair? I feel like i have to commit alot to everything; not sure if that's normal.

 

[Emblem Lord]

You dont do anything. Wait and react to what they do.

 

[Shaya]

Think of it like this:
Marth can outreach nearly every opponent, thanks to disjoints this still remains true even against longer ranged characters.
Marth is pretty good at punishing because of his mobility specs plus some of his key sword attacks.
This gives Marth an insane neutral game against just about everyone.
What's Marth's weakness then, why is it hard? because you commit inappropriately. The moment Marth attacks, that fear/respect the opponent must give to your immediate capabilities are denied for half a second.

So in short, you keep yourself in a scenario where you have the most options all the time and pick your actions with as much precision as possible, as the only shortfall to his game is misusing/miss spacing attacks.

 

[Crawfish]

You dont do anything. Wait and react to what they do.

lots of fun

 

[EternalFlame]

How do you guys feel about dancing blade as an approach? Due to system changes, opponents cant just roll away for free. Its not safe, but the threat of follow up attacks in the DB sequence makes opponents stay in shield or hesitate to attempt a punish. 45 frames of RECOVERY. Abysmal. Still rolling means Marth is usually safe since thats about 30 frames or more his opponent is stuck in animation or RECOVERY. Thoughts?

Also, SH Bair...****ing legit.

Do it. Do it alot.

Having written so much on dancing blades as an approach, I think my position on the matter is clear xD No need to wall text here. SH Bairs ftw, though I don't use it as often as I should, as it wiffs more than hits for me.

What are my options to approach the opponent as Marth and what should I do when an opponent shields an Nair? I feel like i have to commit alot to everything; not sure if that's normal.

It is as the Shaya and Emblem Lord put it, that spacing often requires that you wait for your opponent to make the first move usually and outrange them.

Now given what you can do in terms of spacing and lending towards a more aggressive approach, you have the SH/FH Fairs, FF Nairs, and personally SH DB. All other attacks rely on reading your opponent and acting accordingly. Once you're inside your opponents head, then other options become more viable for approaches > setups > etc

As for the second question, often its ideal to space with Nair as much as possible when approaching with it. Emblem Lord already stated that you fast fall after you land both hits, so if the first one is blocked, you'll need a way out. That said, SH Nairs without fast falling means you still have control and can move back or go overhead to make it harder for your opponent to punish you. Just keep your opponent at a sword's length away, and you should be fine for the most part.

 

[Funblade]

I'm new to smash and want to main Lucina/Marth. I have some problems I'm going to list:

Yesterday I faced a Yoshi who was very fast. I have troubles against fast characters in general, like sonic. When I SH Fair, they shield and usually grab. They shield-roll all around me and get a grab.

When they shieldroll, I try to grab, but they are just outside of my reach or have invincibility because they just started another shield roll.

1) My main problems are people who shield-roll and fast characters in general. I can't punish anything because they are so fast.

2) My other problem is that whenever I launch someone in the air and jump after them, they dodge my attack, or worse yet, they hit me before I can hit them. When I send someone flying off the side of the stage, I can't really do anything to keep them away. Even Fair seems unsafe compared to what people can do to me if I jump after them. So when I launch someone off the stage (or throw them straight up in the air), I just wait for them to come down. Which is a very bad thing.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Did you read the first post?

 

[Funblade]

Yeah, it's pretty much the same as what I've read in other guides as well. When I try to do any of this, I usually end up committing and getting punished.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth doesnt force you to commit aside from certain unsafe actions or pure hard reads so it sounds like you are just shooting yourself in the foot.

Also keep one thing above all else. 3DS has latency so you are losing anywhere between 2 to 5 frames to punish anything.

When you launch someone go for the trap. dont try to hit them. Marth simply launches too high and does not jump high enough to reach them at higher percents.

 

[Funblade]

So how do I punish when everything I do is so slow (whether it is because of the latency or not)?

Lets say the opponent has just whiffed an attack that is outside of my range. Do I just let it go? When I dash attack, I get punished. When I run and grab, I whiff it and get punished.

And if they whiff close to me, they just roll to the other side. If I try to side B, I get punished and so on...

Am I supposed to just down-tilt and standing jab the whole game? Anything else feels like a death sentence.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I'm going to be as blunt as possible.

It sounds like your reactions aren't good enough. Get faster and don't hesitate. When you see someone whiff a button in your face go in HARD with a Dancing Blade or a grab.

Also it depends on how far out of your range, you are talking. If you mean like half stage away ok yeah you arent punishing that. But if you mean JUST outside your general tipper range you should punish that easily.

 

[Funblade]

Alright. I'm going to focus on that for a couple of days, and then I'm going to be back.

 

[EternalFlame]

I'm new to smash and want to main Lucina/Marth. I have some problems I'm going to list:

Yesterday I faced a Yoshi who was very fast. I have troubles against fast characters in general, like sonic. When I SH Fair, they shield and usually grab. They shield-roll all around me and get a grab.

When they shieldroll, I try to grab, but they are just outside of my reach or have invincibility because they just started another shield roll.

1) My main problems are people who shield-roll and fast characters in general. I can't punish anything because they are so fast.

2) My other problem is that whenever I launch someone in the air and jump after them, they dodge my attack, or worse yet, they hit me before I can hit them. When I send someone flying off the side of the stage, I can't really do anything to keep them away. Even Fair seems unsafe compared to what people can do to me if I jump after them. So when I launch someone off the stage (or throw them straight up in the air), I just wait for them to come down. Which is a very bad thing.

Emblem Lord's right for the most part, though let me add my two cents into the mix here.

Due to the speed characters being able to just run up and grab you/punish is due to the commitment from the FAir alone. You need to be careful when using any attack with even the slightest bit of commitment, otherwise hard punishes are on the way from speed characters. That being said, you can try using NAir to space your opponent rather than FAir, due to the less amount of commitment there is to it.

When your opponent is roll spamming, attack where you expect them to finish, not where they were. By this I mean look at your opponent's roll habits and go to where you expect them to be. Committing to the Dash Attack, especially against speed characters, tend to be a problem and often not encouraged. From my understanding of Emblem Lord's usage of it, it is better for punishes against heavier commitments or the transendence (outprioritizing another attack in other words) property. Otherwise, go for other moves, particularly FAir, NAir, dancing blades, etc, towards where your opponent will end up. FAir's I recommend most, since you can back off or go overhead if it misses

When you whif a grab near your opponent, reach for your next fastest move - i.e. Dtilt. If they wiff near you, go for the dtilt as well. The importance of this move is how fast and far it reaches, and it has the lowest recovery frames after performing it. So even if they roll behind you, you'll have time to get away yourself. If you know how to do the dash cancel shield, that will help defensively but also allow a standing grab to be performed over the dashing grab that has more commitment. Like Emblem Lord said, go in if they're just out of range, but be mindful of what you commit to. You could bait retaliation by short hopping in place or overhead, then use a turn around Dancing Blade or something to that effect. When you can't outspeed, outsmart them.

As for your section question, you'll need to learn to be brave when chasing targets off stage. You can outrange and outspeed most opponents in the air, but you need to get them in a position where they can't hit you back. Traps like Utilt or Dtilt are good, but FAir's and NAir's can do wonders even if they miss. With every attack you do, you apply pressure on your opponents. The more pressure there is, the harder it will be to let them think. If on stage, however, mix it up between traps and chasing them in the air, to keep them guessing. Make them form a habit in battle, then exploit it the rest of the way. There's only so much you can do in the air, after all.

Reaction time is key in this game, but there are ways to make opponents move the way you want to when you play mind games on them and such. I'm more a download player myself, so that's the sort of things I rely on when I can't match the reaction time I need. Now I don't know how you fight, so I can't pass any judgement on your ability. That being said, I hope this helps

 

[DavemanCozy]

I remember when Ken was on his stream after the invitational, he said that B-air had actually been improved in terms of recovery speed.

I like Marth in this game. Still getting used to him, but I think he is no lower than high tier.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Now that I'm on Wii U, I can really start testing somethings. Expect a decent sized post very soon.

 

[Crawfish]

Now that I'm on Wii U, I can really start testing somethings. Expect a decent sized post very soon.

please give me your adapter

 

[EternalFlame]

Now that I'm on Wii U, I can really start testing somethings. Expect a decent sized post very soon.

Lookin forward to it xD

 

[Rich Homie Quan]

Tippered F-tilt is so great

And I love how there's is basically this ceiling of 150%, where if my opponent reaches it, I can u-throw for an almost guaranteed kill.

 

[Shaya]

It's unfortunate how reliant we are on rage for that though.
At 0% it's probably just as strong as his up throw in Brawl ;\

Early days I was pretty happy/impressed we had a kill throw at 150%, until I realised it's not killing at 150% unless someone's not expecting it (they only don't expect it ONCE and never again, really).

 

[Funblade]

I've been playing a lot in the past few days. Thanks for the help so far. Found some NA players from forums so I can get non-laggy games going. The difference is astounding.

My self defence has improved a lot. I feel like mixing up shield, down-tilt, standing jab, and down-dodge allows me to keep the opponent guessing when they try to approach me. Jab seems like it beats almost all air approaches, and downtilt usually beats most ground approaches with the exception of really fast ones like Sonic.

I'm having most of my trouble against projectile spammers, and characters I rarely play against. For projectile spammers, I find that jumping in is almost always a death sentence since I am bound to get punished.

Some people I've talked to said that I should stay on the ground versus projectile spammers, and just spam dodge in and out of their range, just to see how they react. And then build a strategy from there. Could you guys expand on projectile spammers (especially Shiek players who just run away and throw knives?). The guide in here says short hop air dodge, but even that feels easy to get punished for.

Thanks in advance.

 

[EternalFlame]

I've been playing a lot in the past few days. Thanks for the help so far. Found some NA players from forums so I can get non-laggy games going. The difference is astounding.

My self defence has improved a lot. I feel like mixing up shield, down-tilt, standing jab, and down-dodge allows me to keep the opponent guessing when they try to approach me. Jab seems like it beats almost all air approaches, and downtilt usually beats most ground approaches with the exception of really fast ones like Sonic.

I'm having most of my trouble against projectile spammers, and characters I rarely play against. For projectile spammers, I find that jumping in is almost always a death sentence since I am bound to get punished.

Some people I've talked to said that I should stay on the ground versus projectile spammers, and just spam dodge in and out of their range, just to see how they react. And then build a strategy from there. Could you guys expand on projectile spammers (especially Shiek players who just run away and throw knives?). The guide in here says short hop air dodge, but even that feels easy to get punished for.

Thanks in advance.

I actually wrote on this in my guide, but I'll give ya the nutshell version of it xD

running/walking shield is key to getting close to projectile spammers. Simply move towards them, cancel your movement with the shield button and block, then keep moving/jump cancel the shield into an attack. If your opponents only do projectile spamming, you want to get close and keep them close. Often projectile spammers (the ones who stick to just that attack tactic), will often roll away after you get too close. At that point, throw your attacks/grabs where you expect them to stop, not when they start the roll (somewhere around midway through their roll animation).

Shiek is particularly troublesome, but projectile spamming against Marth is actually a little less efficient than her just rushing you down instead. Same principle as above to deal with the projectiles themselves, but once you're within a sword's length, pick carefully how you approach. I'm thinking SH NAirs will be your best bet against here, as long as you ensure both hits either connect or she backs off early/blocks both hits. FAir's won't give enough time to keep them in block stun, as they can easily FTilt you out of it. You will definitely have to be very safe with the options you choose if the Shiek knows how to fight up close. Otherwise, get close and keep the pressure going.

The SH Air dodge can be accompanied with a NAir before touching the ground, making the approach slightly protected and sets up for a number of options like grab or dtilt. She fast falls, so you only have a small window to punish if that's what you're going for, but the SH Air dodge should be used carefully. Try using it when you're withing SH distance and Shiek is charging up her knives. Hopefully she throws them prematurely from reaction to your jump, then space yourself during the SH air dodge and retaliate.

.... hmm, I'll need to edit my section with some of this I just told you xD

 

[Chibi-Chan]

I find all of Marth's approach options extremely unsafe. Dancing Blade, Air Dancing Blade, SH Fair, SHFF Nair... Freakin' Fair is unsafe ON HIT if you don't tipper (Since you can't land early). SH bair might have some hope if used at maximum range against some characters.

Also, after playing the WiiU CPU for a while... Is tipper Fsmash unsafe? The epic hitlag is longer than enemy shieldstun so they can nail you with Fsmash and other slow things, it hurts... Does this mean no Fsmash on the neutral game if you have the perfect spacing?

I realize Marth is not a rushdown character, but you are forced to attack anyone with a projectile. Usually I SH over the attack then uh.. Do an aerial and die because none are good on shield. Maybe if you use Fair like you were a crappy Jigglypuff? SH Shieldbreaker does well vs cornered players who aren't so good, but it's a scary slow aerial.

EDIT: Also, what's the point of that pivot roll grab? I don't think it offers more than forward RC grab (which can also be done while moving) and it's harder to do. Maybe I'm just a noob, but please explain the advantage nya.

 

[Crawfish]

just perfect shield shiek's needles lol, 20XX gitgud newbs.
aw man, i can't remember where the quote is from, or what it was, X ) but it was something like, if...i can't remember
you don't need to approach projectile spammers, get the lead and wait it out. if you get the lead they have to approach, they can't camp if you camp harder and better or you could learn fox

 

[Emblem Lord]

Tipper fsmash was never safe on block in any game. Dtilt, jab, sh bair, and FH fair are very safe. Sh nair is safe but you have to space perfectly.

 

[Owangepuffs]

Is Nair supposed to have such strict landing lag? The only time I really use it is when I'm landing from a FH fair because it's such a commitment otherwise. Perhaps. I should start using it as an air-to-air interceptor but then I could just fair.

Drop a little knowledge for a Marth main trying to make the most use out of everything he has.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Nair is 15 frames of recovery.

Sheiks fair is 10.

Make of it what you will.

 

[Shaya]

Taking into consideration how his jump is (frame duration wise), how we're seemingly designed/limited to not have auto cancels that give frame advantages...
Neutral air is probably our least commitment, lowest risk aerial/move in general after down tilt.

It's 15 frames of landing lag, auto cancels on frame 44 (its a 51 frame aerial). You'll actually perfectly auto cancel a full hop rising nair into fast fall; but full hop nair as a thing? Nope/lol.

After dealing with spammable aerials over the weekend (Ness nair/fair; seriously, it's disgusting how spammable those are.. lol at ness sh nairing/fairing four times in a row while holding forward as an approach), Marth really only has neutral air for being able to dynamically handle that without extreme commitments (if he's choosing to jump).

SH rising Nair into fast fall has us landing on frame 24, 3 frames after the hitbox of nair ends.
If we think of first hit nair fast fall, that's hitting frame 6 and free on frame 21 (dtilt is 7/23).
Otherwise normal ff nair is freedom on frame 39, making it much like a forward tilt in terms of overall time, but comes with two hits.

 

[EternalFlame]

I find all of Marth's approach options extremely unsafe. Dancing Blade, Air Dancing Blade, SH Fair, SHFF Nair... Freakin' Fair is unsafe ON HIT if you don't tipper (Since you can't land early). SH bair might have some hope if used at maximum range against some characters.

Also, after playing the WiiU CPU for a while... Is tipper Fsmash unsafe? The epic hitlag is longer than enemy shieldstun so they can nail you with Fsmash and other slow things, it hurts... Does this mean no Fsmash on the neutral game if you have the perfect spacing?

I realize Marth is not a rushdown character, but you are forced to attack anyone with a projectile. Usually I SH over the attack then uh.. Do an aerial and die because none are good on shield. Maybe if you use Fair like you were a crappy Jigglypuff? SH Shieldbreaker does well vs cornered players who aren't so good, but it's a scary slow aerial.

EDIT: Also, what's the point of that pivot roll grab? I don't think it offers more than forward RC grab (which can also be done while moving) and it's harder to do. Maybe I'm just a noob, but please explain the advantage nya.

Following up on what the others have said, Dancing Blade (DB) is usually left for intercepting opponents when you know they will try to strike you first (as it has a higher priority than a number of moves), or as a punish for their roll/landing recovery. The air DB is slightly different, especially if you're following the DB setup, where it can be used as an approach for the property like the ground version and being able to select a number of options according to how your opponent reacts.

SH FAir's are relatively safe as long as you strike with the tip, or at the very least, back off or go overhead after the move comes in contact with a shield. Usually you have enough frames to land and keep moving, or you can protect your landing with a Shield Breaker (SB) or DB. That one I titled the FAir assault, as it keeps Marth safe after the initial wiff/shielded FAir, regardless of tipper or not. Remember against faster opponents like Shiek or perfect shielding, this will not work out too well, as they can FTilt you out of it or run up and grab you.

It's against opponents like those that you need to use SH NAir's. Emblem Lord already stated that they need to be spaced properly, so keep an eye on where you're striking them with the sword. It's bad to FF if you know the first hit was blocked, so at that point, have Marth back off while he's still in the air and don't FF.

With projectiles, I personally find it more ideal to running shield at them, so I can close the distance as quickly. Range characters want distance, and you don't want to give them that for even a moment. Also remember that from shielding, you can cancel the blockstun by jumping, which lets you quickly retaliate with a FAir or what have you. Emblem Lord also makes good points that you can swat some projectiles with your jab/ftilt, and you can also SH dodge, which gives you mobility of the air while keeping yourself invincible for a time. If you do it right, you can also use NAir and connect the first hit just before you land, opening your opponent to a grab or dtilt setup (course, that relies on your opponent getting hit by the NAir).

The pivot roll grab, as Emblem Lord explained it, allows for an extended grab without actually moving. In fact, it cancels your momentum and makes you move forward a bit with the grab. It extends the grab range a smiget, but as for application, we will need Emblem Lord to address that.

Is Nair supposed to have such strict landing lag? The only time I really use it is when I'm landing from a FH fair because it's such a commitment otherwise. Perhaps. I should start using it as an air-to-air interceptor but then I could just fair.

Drop a little knowledge for a Marth main trying to make the most use out of everything he has.

I usually only use NAir for my SH DB setup, but it's original purpose was meant for bulldogging your opponents. It can also be used defensively, as it is a fast pace move and better used on opponents slightly below you.

Otherwise, I'd go off of what Shaya and Emblem Lord have mentioned on it xD

 

[Owangepuffs]

Spent some time in the lab with Nair. Starting to see the the applications of FF Nair. Will incorporate it into my gameplay more. Thanks for the tip.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Updated with kill set-ups and general flow.

 

[EternalFlame]

The general flow will definitely of great use for alot of Marths trying to get use to the gameplan. I learned part of mine from you after all xD but the general flow makes it even easier I'd say.

You bet I'll vouch for the DB setup xD Hearing both you and Shaya are in agreement with it's application assures me as well those setups are bearing fruit. Now time to see how well all the other setups I wrote up on will pan out as the game progresses. And I've gotta start writing up on that grab release applications too, along with another experiment I'm looking into.

Most important of all, can't wait to see what else is in store for the new Marth ^^ keep up the good work dude

 

[Shaya]

We could do some with two player lab-work when it comes to DB2-Up at mid-high percent.
I seem to be able to get in the air at around the same point CPUs start attacking/airdodging (which they tend to do as fast as possible).

But yeah, pl0z based WiiU players/people with friends.
Go fourth.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I was using both set-ups vs my friend's CF tonight. We both been playing since melee. He was a top TO back in melee days and we were both ranked on NJ's power rankings for melee before Brawl came out and real life kicked in. So yeah we both know our stuff and how to react. the grab release set-up only works like...once per game but the DB set-up you can kinda just abuse it since it allows you to option tree into other responses depending on what they do.

 

[Shaya]

I kinda want to go for running up smashes, how much luck do you have with that?

Up Smash has the most 'range' of any of our sword moves other than shield breaker, so it may very well catch the heights easily if they don't jump.

(to others: And if you haven't seen it happen yet, tipper up smash kills heavy characters at like 80%).

 

[EternalFlame]

We could do some with two player lab-work when it comes to DB2-Up at mid-high percent.
I seem to be able to get in the air at around the same point CPUs start attacking/airdodging (which they tend to do as fast as possible).

But yeah, pl0z based WiiU players/people with friends.
Go fourth.

I found that the CPU will wait at least half a second before they actually try to dodge roll. I really want to face you both at some point too, since I'm sure I've got things to learn from the both of you in regards to the ditto (which alot of the setups I've wrote on suffer against ^^"). But I'll wait till exams are over before I actually go to challenge you both xD

I'm looking forward to the results too. Though if I can place a bit of input, mid to high percents start to knock out your options due to launching your opponent too high (even with delayed hits). You also could, at that point, setup with the side B instead, but the spacing it puts only changes the setup options, but doesn't open up any new ones as you keep going. The typical choices for a player is either air dodge or double jump, so a running up smash is rather risky and leaves ya wide open for retaliation. The tilts or a SH FAir/UAir/DB will be your best options to hit away/setup into something else.

 

[Sneether]

I love the Counter its the reason my friend loses whenever I play marth

 

[EternalFlame]

I love the Counter its the reason my friend loses whenever I play marth

Counter is great, pity I can't counter worth squat :/ I get it more with Lucina, and she wiffs due to her height/reach distance over Marth. It's a very strange thing