Project M Social Thread

[Sora-kun]

Do you want the cars to stay in because there's a PTAD without the cars at all.

EDIT: After watching that ridiculous samus video, I thought of something. I know you're still working on throws but would you consider making tether grabs capable of grabbing airborne opponents?

I suggested this a few hundred pages back. Mostly due to the frustration of me missing a grab because my boomerang came back and hit them a millimeter off the ground.. But ya that would be nice if they'd do that.

edit after reading the bottom of the above post: I love you guys D:

 

[Ulevo]

At this point in time there is no way to edit the hitboxes of stages or add hitboxes to stages. I could remove the catapult and bombs from pirate ship as well if you'd like me to.

Since that is pretty much all that is wrong with the stage, I would love that just for myself personally. I think others would agree.

 

[GP&B]

^ Got 13th in teams at Apex.

So, I'm guessing with that he won't need much else, haha.

 

[Juno McGrath]

Guys what the hell are you guys doing to wario.

Good job on the downsmash IMO

But his Fsmash and his bike need to get put back please.

I mean, i understand what you guys are doing, and i respect that aspect, but wario at apex was solid

Theres no need for all these changes.

oh and dair is dumb. want my old one back.

I miss my bike

 

[MonkUnit]

@JCeaser, I'll get that stage done right away after I finish some personal things.
@Ulevo, I'll get that done after I finish the Norfair stage

 

[Sneak8288]

so... i pulled of some sexy nair to grab to a bunch of other sexy stuff and did some pretty sexy combos at to6 with snake but unfortunately nothing was recorded

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I agree with Snap, what are your reasons for changing him?

 

[stingers]

After talking with some PMBR members, apparently they think Wario looks cooler this way. IDK, I guess it's a matter of opinion, so I won't judge them or anything, but I do think that some more serious reasoning should be given.

 

[Juno McGrath]

Me and Rocket are talking about it on aim right now

Im going to give you guys a full write up tonight

 

[Revven]

I agree with Snap, what are your reasons for changing him?

Two words: Air camping. Keeping Wario the way he was would A. be doing the same thing Brawl+ did (which isn't good mind you) and B. He could do very silly things with the way he was. His old Dair encourages him to air camp, just DJ and retreat with it. Uair was both a juggle move AND a KO move that did 17%. While balance isn't on our minds right now, Wario's old playstyle was outright (IMO) dumb. If he was left alone, every single thing (except physics) he would still play a very dumb way in tournaments.

You may not like it that we changed him, but the big reason is because he was such an air camper in vBrawl. That's the main thing he has going for him in that game and why he's relatively high on the tier list compared to many other characters. He retreats until he can get in, dealing damage and then finally getting a small combo. Now imagine in PM, leaving Wario alone would facilitate him to still play the same as vBrawl only amplifying his damage output and combos.

The reason people seemed content with Wario before was because... he was great, however, for all the wrong reasons. He played like a worse Jigglypuff (worse because of range), mind you that sounds good in your head but in the actual setting it really isn't fun to play against.

I'd hate to bring Brawl+ into the discussion but I will. In that game, it was decided that Wario was fine, that he didn't need any changing at all because he (guess what) fit right in! It buffed his combo game and removed his main weakness: grab releases. Nobody really played Wario until Ally was picking the game up and videos showed (to me) that Wario was in dire need of changing but, unfortunately, that never came.

I also used Wario a lot when I played vBrawl. I understand the character pretty **** well and felt that he shouldn't play the same way he does in vBrawl because it's not him at all and because it only leads to problems. You couldn't balance the Wario before this new one without nerfing his aerial mobility. Which as I recall everyone in here was like "Don't change his aerial mobility! Please don't!" Well, we listened and we didn't change that, instead we changed his move set to decrease the amount of air camping he does.

I could go on and on about this, but the fact remains that Wario would be dumb if he was reverted back to how he was at Apex. In friendlies that may seem fine but when you consider a tournament setting when people are playing to win, they are going to exploit the hell out of his aerial mobility, even if there are so few Warios out there.

As for the bike change, it was my personal opinion that the only way this was going to work is if the bike was gone. Shoulder Charge won't work on Fsmash, it'd be way too spammable and weird as a smash attack (plus you would lose the armor frames on it). The bike also facilitated long lasting life which isn't really fit in a Melee environment, is it? The only character in Melee who can recover from absurdly far is Jigglypuff, but she's light as hell. Wario is not light, he's a bloody heavyweight, why does he need a bike to live for even longer? It doesn't make sense given the contextual environment and other characters.

Maybe it will change down the line, I don't know, but these are the thoughts I had. He needed a revamp, I'm sorry you didn't feel that way back at Apex but that's because he hadn't been touched at all at Apex.

This is all I'm going to say on this.

 

[stingers]

I mean, I honestly don't like how Falcon plays. His aerial game and ground to air momentum really encourage aerial pressure and heavy juggling. We should make his moveset more like vBrawl warios, because that makes sense and I like to change things for no reason because everyone has to play exactly the same.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

I mean, I honestly don't like how Falcon plays. His aerial game and ground to air momentum really encourage aerial pressure and heavy juggling. We should make his moveset more like vBrawl warios, because that makes sense and I like to change things for no reason because everyone has to play exactly the same.

Which we could if we wanted to, but we didn't feel that was a good direction for the project. (at all...)

 

[Juno McGrath]

Okay well I can chalk your entire TL;DR post up into four points

1.) Wario only had to air camp because he was given things that allowed him to fight well vs most the high tiers. Giving him new moves entirely is Really dumb, why not just change his tools and allow him to actually use his dair for fighting? I didnt air camp at all with wario when i played him at apex and i beat shiz with him. L cancled dair on shield> jab on shield>to grab was legit as hell and falco could be up thrown to fart at the time. I see where you guys are coming from but his down air is just plain stupid.

EXAMPLE.

rocketsci227: opinion on the dair?
Dylan Noclass: OH
Dylan Noclass: i forgot
Dylan Noclass: i hate it
Dylan Noclass: its broken
Dylan Noclass: like
Dylan Noclass: really bad
rocketsci227: broken as in MK borken or broken as in Wario's bike destroyed?
Dylan Noclass: broken as it nado broken
Dylan Noclass: like
Dylan Noclass: I was playing pepper
Dylan Noclass: and i was just down airing him
Dylan Noclass: he was teching it
Dylan Noclass: and wario was just fast enough to just REACT and be there dairing again
rocketsci227: so you think it needs more lag?
Dylan Noclass: i daired him from 0-120 then it lead to fart
Dylan Noclass: lol
Dylan Noclass: No theres nothing you can do to it to make it not broken because of the nature of the move
Dylan Noclass: see
Dylan Noclass: when a falcon player stomps you
Dylan Noclass: they have to L cancel on the first frame possible
Dylan Noclass: jump again
Dylan Noclass: READ your tech
Dylan Noclass: then try to stomp you again
Dylan Noclass: Wario, wheather you shield his dair or not has a lagless bounce
Dylan Noclass: doesnt have to L cancel
rocketsci227: so you think the landing needs more lag
Dylan Noclass: Therefore your just hitting down on the C stick over and over again
Dylan Noclass: No
Dylan Noclass: if you want to keep that dumb move
Dylan Noclass: take away the bounce all together
Dylan Noclass: Or
Dylan Noclass: make it to wear if you hit L as you hit them you bounce
Dylan Noclass: if thats possible
Dylan Noclass: The bounce is what makes it so broken

So good job falco, now your just going to have people air camping for Dair hits instead of percent leads. Rofl.

good stuff PMBR.

2.) The bike, why not just shorten warios bike jump? Tires are crucial to warios game in brawl these days and a bike in melee would probally allow him to play more aggro then anything

Falco is on the other side of the stage laser camping you, your ride your bike over on a wheely and dont take any laser damage. you jump off the bike and catch falco. You gimp falco at 45 because you forward throw him off the stage and throw the bike on top of his fire.

Tires are self explanatory imo. When you play wario in regular brawl its very hard to do anything if someone camps you (Ie, falco) its sort of helpless in the sense that he is way fast and his projectile is amazing.

Okay, so you need the bike to stop projectiles and to get tires for combos as well

the bike was something INNOVATIVE in brawl. why take it out?

3.) the fsmash is ugly and you should all feel bad.

4.) The shoulder charge you guys have for his side b is terrible and shouldnt even be there imo. It looks rushed and bad. Its clunky and sometimes it sends you into free fall and some times it doesnt,

Completely useless move.

 

[curry9186]

I think the key word was camping. Falcon applies heavy pressure but he doesn't run away until there's an opening. You attack relentlessly until there is one. You could waste a lot of time just chasing down a wario player and in the mean time they'll hit and run with little to no fear.

 

[stingers]

I think the key word was camping. Falcon applies heavy pressure but he doesn't run away until there's an opening. You attack relentlessly until there is one. You could waste a lot of time just chasing down a wario player and in the mean time they'll hit and run with little to no fear.

lol that was my Point. They are changing wario into something he's not, just because they have this misguided idea that everyone plays really fast and aggressive in melee because Fox and Falco do.

 

[Juno McGrath]

lol that was my Point. They are changing wario into something he's not, just because they have this misguided idea that everyone plays really fast and aggressive in melee because Fox and Falco do.

this ^

You guys are getting really caught up on wario being an air camper lol
its a really scrubby outlook.

I play aggro in regular brawl and i do just fine for myself.

maybe people actually like the character and want to play him because hes cool.

and maybe down air is the coolest move in the world to some people and could be **** shield pressure if done correctly

 

[curry9186]

lol that was my Point. They are changing wario into something he's not, just because they have this misguided idea that everyone plays really fast and aggressive in melee because Fox and Falco do.

This raises a question. Is Jigglypuff an aggressive melee character? Wario was compared to a heavyweight version of puff, so if they played somewhat similarly, then wario's original style would make a little sense. His aerials would need tweaking of course, but i think the major issue is that despite being a heavyweight, he doesn't die easily because his recovery is incredibly good.

 

[stingers]

no, jigglypuff is not an aggressive melee character. at all

 

[rPSIvysaur]

this ^

You guys are getting really caught up on wario being an air camper lol
its a really scrubby outlook.

I play aggro in regular brawl and i do just fine for myself.

maybe people actually like the character and want to play him because hes cool.

and maybe down air is the coolest move in the world to some people and could be **** shield pressure if done correctly

That's the thing though, Snap. It's that you may play aggro, but other people (like DMG) go all out camp. =/

 

[The_Guide]

You know, its not as if melee top tiers can't camp. Turtling is a viable strategy, even if its not fun to play against.

 

[TLMSheikant]

But what IS the problem with camping? Shouldnt there be both CAMPY and AGGRO characters? Or should every character have flashy as heck combos like falcon?

 

[stingers]

Which won't work in Melee anyway, due to more aerial momentum from a SH, faster fall speeds, and the MAD. Air camping as Brawl knows it is gone. Aerial mobility is not the key factor in the ability to air camp anyway, it is more falling speed and # of jumps lol.

yes tlmshiekant, that is what I'm trying to say, the PMBR thinks that every character should play like Fox though, idk why =/

 

[curry9186]

no, jigglypuff is not an aggressive melee character. at all

If that's so then why punish a character for having a defensive playstyle? I think his aerials should be adjusted so they aren't OP like falco said about his Uair, and probably keep the charge move because the bike, though original, gave him too good of a recovery.

 

[Dark Sonic]

@Stingers...blanket statements like that are not very intelligent.

Obviously Snake, Link, Rob, Wolf ect play nothing like Fox, despite some of the more radical changes made to them.

If everyone really hates Wario then all of the changes will simply be relooked at, and likely reverted if they keep getting negative feedback even after they've been tweaked a couple times.

 

[The_Guide]

If that's so then why punish a character for having a defensive playstyle? I think his aerials should be adjusted so they aren't OP like falco said about his Uair, and probably keep the charge move because the bike, though original, gave him too good of a recovery.

If thats the case, nerf the bike's jump height. Lower U-air's damage output, or something. There's no need to totally scrap the move.

 

[curry9186]

If thats the case, nerf the bike's jump height. Lower U-air's damage output, or something. There's no need to totally scrap the move.

I would've suggested that but I'm not sure if you can do that. It'd be nice if they could but I don't know.

EDIT: Talking about the bike jump.

 

[stingers]

Let me tell you something about melee aerials. Fox's bair does 15%, Shieks nair does 14%, and the Knee does 16%, all of which are far easier to hit with and kill more often then Wario's small little Uair will. It's not a big deal. Nerf the damage if its really that important.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Which won't work in Melee anyway, due to more aerial momentum from a SH, faster fall speeds, and the MAD. Air camping as Brawl knows it is gone. Aerial mobility is not the key factor in the ability to air camp anyway, it is more falling speed and # of jumps lol.

yes tlmshiekant, that is what I'm trying to say, the PMBR thinks that every character should play like Fox though, idk why =/

Yeah, I think there should be some variety...I cant picture samus being a combo character. Or jigglypuff being super fast and actually comboing beyond bair bair bair.

There WAS camping in melee. Doc had gay pills. Fox could laser camp (even though it wasnt that effective, the option was there and he could platform camp which is a lot better). Falco pew pew. Sheik could technically camp with ftilt and needles. Samus is all camp. Jiggly is jiggly. Etc. You all make it seem like melee is all falcon combos and shiz.

 

[Deleted member]

Stingers has a good point.

I don't think many people outside the Melee metagame realize the extent of camping in Melee. Its how high level matches are played.

Fox and Falco can approach and have little chance to be punished b/c of shine, but are typically supposed to play their match ups in a camping strategy.

There are strategies for camping Falco and baiting him to either retreat and fire more lasers or try and combo the opponent in the edge of Falco's laser spacing. Marth is good at this.

Melee is campy when played properly, but campy in a way different from Brawl.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Just so you guys know, we're making DDD into one of the hardest characters to approach ever <_<.

 

[curry9186]

Let me tell you something about melee aerials. Fox's bair does 15%, Shieks nair does 14%, and the Knee does 16%, all of which are far easier to hit with and kill more often then Wario's small little Uair will. It's not a big deal. Nerf the damage if its really that important.

None of those moves juggle into themselves. That's the reason for the damage nerf.

 

[The_Guide]

Just so you guys know, we're making DDD into one of the hardest characters to approach ever <_<.

Thank you.

10thanks

 

[stingers]

Obviously Snake, Link, Rob, Wolf ect play nothing like Fox, despite some of the more radical changes made to them.

Wolf seems like a pretty dead on Fox to me...lots of air momentum, strong nair, strong bair for safe shield pressure, fast shine which can be used as a safety for overextending your approach...

I would say they did a good job with Snake. They didn't buff or nerf any of his strengths or weaknesses unnecessarily, and they remained faithful to his vBrawl counterpart while not simply making it a rehash.

Link and ROB were both given buffs to areas they were weak in unnecessarily in order to promote a more fast-paced playstyle, but whatever.

None of those moves juggle into themselves. That's the reason for the damage nerf.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bj9UUq8BVqc

 

[curry9186]

Hhhwwoookay, I stand corrected.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Wolf's nair has **** range, he has average air momentum (nothing like Fox's running jump), his bair has low duration (though it is still a safe camping move I'll admit), his shine is not jump cancelable (and thus doesn't cover your approach well considering it's punishable on block), HE'S NOT EVEN A FAST FALLER!

Do you know Wolf at all? Lasers are kinda similar though (more like Falco though <_<)

And lol didn't buff or nerf Snake. What do you call uptilt? Or Grenades. C4 and D-smash have become integral parts of his game (actually, we were thinking of giving bair back some kill power because he now struggles to get kills. Oops?)

 

[Deleted member]

From what I see, Snake can't camp very effectively because he's getting camped often.

That seems to be a weakness to him as well.

 

[stingers]

Wolf's nair has **** range, he has average air momentum (nothing like Fox's running jump), his bair has low duration, his shine is not jump cancelable (and thus doesn't cover your approach well considering it's punishable on block), HE'S NOT EVEN A FAST FALLER!

Do you know Wolf at all? Lasers are kinda similar though (more like Falco though <_<)

You're looking at move attributes instead of what can be done with these moves. Shine cancels when you land, leading to a similar form of shield pressure with it the same that fox and falco do, far different from any other character's options to shield pressure after landing. His bair and Nair are both safe to approach on or through shields with, ala Fox. Okay, he's not a fast faller, but his SH is low enough to the ground that you can play a fast paced aerial shield pressure game just like fox can. Do you see that? I don't know why you're being so condescending, but I'm just trying to explain my thought processes to you here.

And lol didn't buff or nerf Snake. What do you call uptilt? Or Grenades. C4 and D-smash have become integral parts of his game (actually, we were thinking of giving bair back some kill power because he now struggles to get kills. Oops?)

They are nerfs and buffs, once again, to the moves specifically, not into any areas of gameplay into which Snake excelled. Nerfing his utilt or slowing the timer on his grenades or giving him the C4 fakeout did not change his playstyle from brawl, mainly stage control through projectiles...which is what I was referring to.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

i'm starting to wonder if stingers actually played the game.

 

[Revven]

Okay well I can chalk your entire TL;DR post up into four points

1.) Wario only had to air camp because he was given things that allowed him to fight well vs most the high tiers. Giving him new moves entirely is Really dumb, why not just change his tools and allow him to actually use his dair for fighting? I didnt air camp at all with wario when i played him at apex and i beat shiz with him. L cancled dair on shield> jab on shield>to grab was legit as hell and falco could be up thrown to fart at the time. I see where you guys are coming from but his down air is just plain stupid.

EXAMPLE.

rocketsci227: opinion on the dair?
Dylan Noclass: OH
Dylan Noclass: i forgot
Dylan Noclass: i hate it
Dylan Noclass: its broken
Dylan Noclass: like
Dylan Noclass: really bad
rocketsci227: broken as in MK borken or broken as in Wario's bike destroyed?
Dylan Noclass: broken as it nado broken
Dylan Noclass: like
Dylan Noclass: I was playing pepper
Dylan Noclass: and i was just down airing him
Dylan Noclass: he was teching it
Dylan Noclass: and wario was just fast enough to just REACT and be there dairing again
rocketsci227: so you think it needs more lag?
Dylan Noclass: i daired him from 0-120 then it lead to fart
Dylan Noclass: lol
Dylan Noclass: No theres nothing you can do to it to make it not broken because of the nature of the move
Dylan Noclass: see
Dylan Noclass: when a falcon player stomps you
Dylan Noclass: they have to L cancel on the first frame possible
Dylan Noclass: jump again
Dylan Noclass: READ your tech
Dylan Noclass: then try to stomp you again
Dylan Noclass: Wario, wheather you shield his dair or not has a lagless bounce
Dylan Noclass: doesnt have to L cancel
rocketsci227: so you think the landing needs more lag
Dylan Noclass: Therefore your just hitting down on the C stick over and over again
Dylan Noclass: No
Dylan Noclass: if you want to keep that dumb move
Dylan Noclass: take away the bounce all together
Dylan Noclass: Or
Dylan Noclass: make it to wear if you hit L as you hit them you bounce
Dylan Noclass: if thats possible
Dylan Noclass: The bounce is what makes it so broken

So good job falco, now your just going to have people air camping for Dair hits instead of percent leads. Rofl.

good stuff PMBR.

2.) The bike, why not just shorten warios bike jump? Tires are crucial to warios game in brawl these days and a bike in melee would probally allow him to play more aggro then anything

Falco is on the other side of the stage laser camping you, your ride your bike over on a wheely and dont take any laser damage. you jump off the bike and catch falco. You gimp falco at 45 because you forward throw him off the stage and throw the bike on top of his fire.

Tires are self explanatory imo. When you play wario in regular brawl its very hard to do anything if someone camps you (Ie, falco) its sort of helpless in the sense that he is way fast and his projectile is amazing.

Okay, so you need the bike to stop projectiles and to get tires for combos as well

the bike was something INNOVATIVE in brawl. why take it out?

3.) the fsmash is ugly and you should all feel bad.

4.) The shoulder charge you guys have for his side b is terrible and shouldnt even be there imo. It looks rushed and bad. Its clunky and sometimes it sends you into free fall and some times it doesnt,

Completely useless move.

1) Vert. KB Boost removal = the reason you were able to do that. It was not compensated recently as it should have been. Also, you have about 20 frames to react the bounce on shield. But your feedback is noted for the move. We'll look into it

2) Noted.

3) We know, what do you suggest if we kept Side B? A punch? The SAME Fsmash as Side B? Just an FYI, the only difference for this move is the animation, everything else is the same.

4) How would you code it then? Do you want the bouncing off of walls gone completely? Because that's what's "stopping you" from grabbing the ledge with it. How is this move clunky? Because you can't get your opponent all the time with it or what? You didn't really explain anything here, "clunky" doesn't help fix the move, it tells me nothing.

Would it be a bad idea if bike was only aerial side B? Keeping grounded Side B shoulder charge?

 

[Msingh0]

Does that mean you can tell us the release in terms of "landing detection?"
Obvious troll is troll lol