Project M Social Thread

[stingers]

when I played it there was no landing lag on AGT or ADC Zair. which matters because it even canceled the lag of the throwing animation from when you were AGTing close to the ground. making it far superior to glide tossing. same with ADC Zair and wavedashing for those that had that option.

If you guys wised up and fixed that, good ****. As someone who doesn't have the privilege of always having the most updated build at my disposal to mess around with, I can only offer critique based on the information available to me. Which is all anyone can ever do...don't hate.

we have frame experts, melee top players, and a significant number of playtesters in PMBR. don't tell us that we make any change on a whim. ever. everything undergoes extensive playtesting, especially if a big event like APEX is coming up soon.

ralph pls go

More public relations babble talk nonsense, seeing as how it's common knowledge that the AGT is a byproduct of the MAD code and nothing more...there was no extensive playtesting or even moderate theorycraft, it's just a glitch that TURNS OUT to obsolete older forms of movement, which is terrible design wise; my little sister could tell you that much.

and I know you TSON, and I know how dedicated you are to sticking with your own ways, and it's great your opinionated and able to express your opinions because I'm sure if your points were valid you'd be great at letting all of us know what's going on with this project, but you have to realize I'm not out to get you, and any amount of calling me a troll isn't going to change that. just trying to help, BRO

and are you even from LL? potty time would be ashamed to see you of all people stealing from him.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Are you even reading what you type? You said "BECAUSE of the lack of Wave-dashing, it makes Rolling better, duh." not that rolls are more effective because of the lack of wavedashing. Which still brings me back to my example of the money, just replace "better" with the words "more effective". I do acknowledge that rolls are less punishable in brawl. However that doesn't mean they aren't still a poor choice in a lot of situations.

And yes, I am criticizing his decision that DIDN'T work out. You are praising him way too much like if he can't make any mistake or anything. If you were watching the same match, it looked like he was thinking that brood was going to move forward which would leave Ally behind him (you could tell by the buffered jab) but it didn't work. Brood obviously didn't expect such a critical error on his part which is why I said Ally lucked out.

Oh my mistake on the rolling thing then, thought I said "more effective". My sentence still makes sense though if you interpret "better" as "a better option". Which is what I was talking about.

Okay, lets use your money example then:
"Lets say I had a 5$ bill and a 1$ bill. I suddenly lost my 5$ bill, does that make my 1$ a more effective option? No, it just means I have to make due with the 1$."

Well, your $5 bill can do everything a $1 bill can and more. So the $1 bill is a less effective option. Assuming you didn't have the $5 bill, suddenly there is a reason to use your $1 bill because you can't use the 5 anymore. This makes the $1 bill a more effective option to use than if you did have the $5.

Lol at me praising him too much, I had a feeling you'd say that.
No, Ally isn't perfect, but there is a difference between being "not perfect" and using a n00by technique. You don't see professional tennis players go out on the field and start swinging their racket the wrong way just because they aren't perfect. Ally's rolls also let him dodge some of Brood's attacks and grabs, so it wasn't a "critical error".

 

[shanus]

when I played it there was no landing lag on AGT or ADC Zair. which matters because it even canceled the lag of the throwing animation from when you were AGTing close to the ground. making it far superior to glide tossing. same with ADC Zair and wavedashing for those that had that option.

If you guys wised up and fixed that, good ****. As someone who doesn't have the privilege of always having the most updated build at my disposal to mess around with, I can only offer critique based on the information available to me. Which is all anyone can ever do...don't hate.

More public relations babble talk nonsense, seeing as how it's common knowledge that the AGT is a byproduct of the MAD code and nothing more...there was no extensive playtesting or even moderate theorycraft, it's just a glitch that TURNS OUT to obsolete older forms of movement, which is terrible design wise; my little sister could tell you that much.

and I know you TSON, and I know how dedicated you are to sticking with your own ways, and it's great your opinionated and able to express your opinions because I'm sure if your points were valid you'd be great at letting all of us know what's going on with this project, but you have to realize I'm not out to get you, and any amount of calling me a troll isn't going to change that. just trying to help, BRO

and are you even from LL? potty time would be ashamed to see you of all people stealing from him.

They have identical lag to MAD when landing and AGT item throw does NOT cancel the item throw animation, it only enters the landlag upon move completion and entering special fall. Before you join on the quick-to-criticize train get your facts straight.

Removing AGT item throws is 1 line and I have done it in the past, but we kept it in the game because it adds substantial approach options with a lot of characters who are: low tier and lack range. Additionally, doing anything out of air dodge results in special fall upon move completion, so AGT item throws only work from a SH to have any form of follow up.

Regarding zairs: I tried to remove the AGT zair since its outright crazy and add the stall & fall properties of melee, but it resulted in breaking their ability to grab the edge. It'll likely be revisited at some point.

Overall, instead of jumping to conclusions on everything (all this AGT stuff has been in for a while, how about you ask how its coded first so your not entirely wrong in your posts?

 

[iLink]

Oh my mistake on the rolling thing then, thought I said "more effective". My sentence still makes sense though if you interpret "better" as "a better option". Which is what I was talking about.

Okay, lets use your money example then:
"Lets say I had a 5$ bill and a 1$ bill. I suddenly lost my 5$ bill, does that make my 1$ a more effective option? No, it just means I have to make due with the 1$."

Well, your $5 bill can do everything a $1 bill can and more. So the $1 bill is a less effective option. Assuming you didn't have the $5 bill, suddenly there is a reason to use your $1 bill because you can't use the 5 anymore. This makes the $1 bill a more effective option to use than if you did have the $5.

Lol at me praising him too much, I had a feeling you'd say that.
No, Ally isn't perfect, but there is a difference between being "not perfect" and using a n00by technique. You don't see professional tennis players go out on the field and start swinging their racket the wrong way just because they aren't perfect. Ally's rolls also let him dodge some of Brood's attacks and grabs, so it wasn't a "critical error".

The reason to use something because the lack of a better option doesn't make it more effective. It makes it the same option with a reason to use it. You seem to be misinterpreting the phrase "more effective".

I never said it was a nooby technique. It was a bad read on his part because he was hoping olimar would move forward so he would end up behind him but olimar didn't move. The only rolls that helped him dodge the attacks were the ones correct the rolls that put him in a bad position in the first place. Are you honestly going to tell me that rolling right in front of olimar like that with his back turned to him benefited him in any way?

Also that tennis thing was a bad example. Think more along the lines of a penalty kick for a soccer game, sometimes the goalies go in the exact opposite direction of the ball because they didn't guess correctly which way the ball was going.

 

[.Fade]

I have played it. Aerial glide tossing (and air dodged cancelled zairs) are both ********.

Air-dodge cancelled z-airs were in Melee. ;D

Speaking of which, how are Link and Toon Link's Zairs going to operate? In Melee, if you're dangling and click A, you instantly pop up a little higher than where your chain connected. Even if you Zaired the ledge perfectly, you'd instantly teleport to grabbing the ledge with your [Link's] hands. In Brawl, they slowly pull themselves up to the ledge. Will this 'pulling up' lag stay in P:M?

 

[stingers]

They have identical lag to MAD when landing and AGT item throw does NOT cancel the item throw animation, it only enters the landlag upon move completion and entering special fall. Before you join on the quick-to-criticize train get your facts straight.

While I wasn't technically correct on my terms, the end result is basically the same, no? Less ending lag and greater control over distance moved. I don't know how that doesn't obsolete glide tossing, unless there is some reason you can't jump (don't tell me you're going to give Jigglypuff Gravity or something...you never know...)

Removing AGT item throws is 1 line and I have done it in the past, but we kept it in the game because it adds substantial approach options with a lot of characters who are: low tier and lack range. Additionally, doing anything out of air dodge results in special fall upon move completion, so AGT item throws only work from a SH to have any form of follow up.

Of course it gives approach options, there's no way to argue against that; it's true. But have you considered the ramifications and how it will change gameplay as a whole? (I really think it's possible to AGT items and catch them after being thrown but that's totally a random theory and has no testing behind it, but if so, that's basically wavedashing with a hitbox in front of you, lol. Come on now...)

Balance can be achieved in other ways. Not that lack of range is something I'd credit to Link OR Toon Link OR Snake (Peach and Diddy are the only two, and Peach has FC aerials which give you so much freedom in the air (I'm a melee peach main, just for the record) that the overall lack of range is the only thing keeping her from top tier...and even so, look at what Armada is doing these days)...but it goes to show that you shouldn't rely on untested and spontaneously developed forms of movement if you're going to try and create such a controlled and planned out hack like tihs one.

Regarding zairs: I tried to remove the AGT zair since its outright crazy and add the stall & fall properties of melee, but it resulted in breaking their ability to grab the edge. It'll likely be revisited at some point.

Overall, instead of jumping to conclusions on everything (all this AGT stuff has been in for a while), how about you ask how its coded first so your not entirely wrong in your posts?

I really wasn't entirely wrong, don't be so rude shanus...but alright, if you could tell me all the details on its coding, that'd be cool too. It's interesting to know how the MAD code actually works and all that.

Air-dodge cancelled z-airs were in Melee. ;D

trust me, it's far different in this game...

 

[shanus]

You cant recatch them because you go into special fall. Long ago you could do it back and forth in the air.

A lot of us like its potential for some of the characters you've mentioned and we've countered all forms of abuse for it so that it can only be used once in the air prior to special fall. Part of the reason its a beta test is to see how it fairs and we encourage people to abuse it. If it proves to be a problem, its easily removed.

 

[stingers]

oh...yeah I got the special fall in the air (smart move =]) but I meant just instant AGT forward + recatch at the end. wavedashing with a hitbox in front...so even if an enemy intercepts you while moving, you're safe. i guess you can say you need to have the item out in the first place which limits your attacking options (though it doesnt for peach <3 that character) but that's still a far SUPERIOR option to normal glide tossing, which is my main problem...

 

[[TSON]]

Glide tossing is already nerfed up the *** so that we could get wavedashing working correctly (traction)

EDIT: and wtf is LL

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Just make the distance of an aerial glide toss less than that of a wavedash....

 

[[TSON]]

anyways so i can be complete in my responses

More public relations babble talk nonsense, seeing as how it's common knowledge that the AGT is a byproduct of the MAD code and nothing more...there was no extensive playtesting or even moderate theorycraft, it's just a glitch that TURNS OUT to obsolete older forms of movement, which is terrible design wise; my little sister could tell you that much.

yes, it was initially a glitch. it has been specifically balanced though, so that is irrelevant. it has undergone testing; that's why we know it exists, and that's why you can't stall with it anymore.

and I know you TSON

uhh, no you don't.

and I know how dedicated you are to sticking with your own ways

wat

and it's great your opinionated and able to express your opinions because I'm sure if your points were valid you'd be great at letting all of us know what's going on with this project, but you have to realize I'm not out to get you, and any amount of calling me a troll isn't going to change that. just trying to help, BRO

but you aren't helping. i just said that.

and are you even from LL? potty time would be ashamed to see you of all people stealing from him.

what is a/an LL

 

[stingers]

XD nevermind tson

 

[Plairnkk]

LUELINKS!!!111one

 

[shanus]

oh...yeah I got the special fall in the air (smart move =]) but I meant just instant AGT forward + recatch at the end. wavedashing with a hitbox in front...so even if an enemy intercepts you while moving, you're safe. i guess you can say you need to have the item out in the first place which limits your attacking options (though it doesnt for peach <3 that character) but that's still a far SUPERIOR option to normal glide tossing, which is my main problem...

Not exactly true either. Aerial glide tossing is not as quick of an OOS option as grounded glide tossing. They both have their place.

 

[JCaesar]

Part of the reason its a beta test is to see how it fairs and we encourage people to abuse it. If it proves to be a problem, its easily removed.

This.

*fares* though

oh...yeah I got the special fall in the air (smart move =]) but I meant just instant AGT forward + recatch at the end. wavedashing with a hitbox in front...so even if an enemy intercepts you while moving, you're safe. i guess you can say you need to have the item out in the first place which limits your attacking options (though it doesnt for peach <3 that character) but that's still a far SUPERIOR option to normal glide tossing, which is my main problem...

Shanus just ninja'd what I was gonna say, but yeah, it definitely doesn't make regular glidetossing obsolete. It's quicker OOS and you can act sooner after the throw since you don't have to land.

You can make a legit argument for AGT zairs being broken (and it is being worked on, just proving difficult to fix), but AGT with items, which is a (not broken) approach option, affecting maybe ~10% of the cast (and occasionally their opponent), nah.

 

[stingers]

If it's quicker OoS, it has a purpose. About the same as comparing JC grabs to dash grabs. Good enough for me.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

The reason to use something because the lack of a better option doesn't make it more effective. It makes it the same option with a reason to use it. You seem to be misinterpreting the phrase "more effective".

I never said it was a nooby technique. It was a bad read on his part because he was hoping olimar would move forward so he would end up behind him but olimar didn't move. The only rolls that helped him dodge the attacks were the ones correct the rolls that put him in a bad position in the first place. Are you honestly going to tell me that rolling right in front of olimar like that with his back turned to him benefited him in any way?

Also that tennis thing was a bad example. Think more along the lines of a penalty kick for a soccer game, sometimes the goalies go in the exact opposite direction of the ball because they didn't guess correctly which way the ball was going.

Going by very strict definitions, you are correct, but I am thinking of it more in a slang, "general idea" kind of way. Sort of like a mix between one and five on here.

But whatever, how I used the word isn't important, it's the concept.

Okay, so you obviously don't like that video example, let me give some others:
M2K (Meta-Knight) vs. Ally (Wario) - Notice how much M2K (Playing an aerial based character mind you) rolls.
M2K (Meta-Knight) vs. Boss (Luigi) - Both players roll a reasonable amount, especially M2K though.
Boss (Luigi) vs. Y.B.M. (Kirby) - Rolling by both players, especially YBM.

Satisfied? I can find more if you want.

 

[JCaesar]

Wow, shut up about that rolling crap, both of you. It doesn't matter.

 

[Sterowent]

on the topic of rolling, did melee have that data available as well, or are you guys going to have to trail and error your way through replicating their distances and speeds? same question for techs.

and what are your plans for the newcomers? lucario and sonic have relatively fast rolls, but will their techs be as good?

did many people play sonic, or were the matches with hbox's DDD and Lee's lucario the only new characters demoed?

sooo many questions!

 

[grim mouser]

With the traction/friction changes to perfect WD, how badly have DACUS and grounded glide toss (?) been nerfed?

 

[Shadic]

sooo many questions!

This is why development is taking so long.

 

[grim mouser]

This is why development is taking so long.

D=

 

[Sora-kun]

No. Brawl isn't "bad". Brawl's quality is purely subjective.

I'm doubting you've ever even played Brawl, and are just jumping on the Brawl-hate band wagon. Lol at Brawl only being good from a casual gamer's point of view, that is one of the stupidest things I've heard in this topic.

So, you're reasoning for Melee being superior is added depth? When you get down to it, not much depth has been taken out. L-Cancelling was fake-depth, Wavedashing has been replaced by other movement methods, there are a plethora of character-specific advanced techniques as well.

And I'd like to see your sources for how you know Nintendo's motives for deleting homebrew, please.

you lost when you said i never played brawl.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2JAZYXlIFk gg cp?



edit: NUU I DUN LIEK STALL AND FALL Z AIRS D; that will make them useless as hell for an attack ;_;

 

[Sterowent]

This is why development is taking so long.

d'aaahahhh

Spoiler

they could maybe possibly answer at least one!

 

[Sneak8288]

Rolls are only good in brawl because there aren't any other options. AGT isn't broken or stupid, its only stupid if you bad with applying it to your gameplay. Using AGT with diddy isn't even as easy as it seems in theory. Spacing with AGT to actually make it into a good approach isn't that easy either. Regular GT has different applications that are just as good, especially in terms of spacing. Also L-canceling isn't an illusion of anything and it adds depth because of execution of the tech no matter how small it may be it matters. Just like airdashing or wavedashing in Mvc2. Being able to execute you techs properly as well as being a smart player is what seperates pros from your average joes.

 

[DaiAndOh]

I played a lot of ICs in Melee.

I've made many a person mess up their L-Cancel timing. L-Cancel is not always the same timing, and is something better players can work around.

 

[Sora-kun]

about DAC: i heard snake's goes as far as his dash attack (pretty good distance imo)

what about link's? imo it should go a little further than twice his dash attack length or something like that.. i'd have to actually try to measure it before saying anything for sure..

and falco.. he has dash attack - up smash combo still right?

 

[OverLade]

It's important to be able to time your L cancelling depending on the amount of shieldstun you or hitlag you encounter when you connect, but L cancelling is pretty much essential at higher levels of play as is mixing it up with wavelanding...

 

[I R MarF]

I don't mean to bug you guys but do you know when the next character dojo (or possibly stage dojo) will be?

Are any top/high tiers such as Fox, Falcon, or Marth finished yet? Or is it just Falco and Lucas?

 

[FireBall Stars]

I support this :D
Oh, and lol at Mewtwo having a bad recovery.

I was talking about djc characters on P:M, I mean there's no mewtwo, Just explaining

Well, Brawl is awesome, in free for all all items on and all stages on random, man so awesome.
And it awesome when it is modded also.

Well, P:M is like a new game, the new games tries to improve from the later installments (things that brawl did in many points and failed in anothers, the important ones for competitive players), so, there are new characters, there are new stages, let's add new techniques too, new and constructive stuff is always good.

AGT is very instinctive, I see no problem, it is also a slight recovery buff for Link and Toon Link. As shanus said, there will be a beta testing, I wouldn't worry about AGT now. It will not just thrown at us without anymore updating as nintendo does.

If Glide toss will be just like it is in melee, with most of the characters only generating a bigger amount o dust I would say it will be pretty useless. >_>

For what I could do, Mewtwo, Marth and Roy have a viable Glide toss, with Marth and Roy only when throwing backwards. But just waiting to see anyway.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Also L-canceling isn't an illusion of anything and it adds depth because of execution of the tech no matter how small it may be it matters. Just like airdashing or wavedashing in Mvc2. Being able to execute you techs properly as well as being a smart player is what seperates pros from your average joes.

Wavedashing, airdashing, and triangle jumping would actually be more comparable to melee wavedashing or GT/AGT, not L canceling.
Movement techniques serve a definite purpose, and there are situations where you would not want to perform them, instead opting for another form of movement. There is very little reason to not L cancel when playing at a high level, aside from some very limited mix-up potential. That form of a cancel doesn't exist in most other fighters, since lag is auto canceled upon landing.

Not trying to start up a debate, by the way. Just saying you might want to use a different analogy next time. That one actually kind of hurts your argument.

 

[ICHIGOBLEACH]

AGT is a triangle jump right?
do you know they look ridiculous

 

[GameWatching]

off-topic,

but who do you want the most ?
Yoshi Story, Melee Fox or Pichu ?

i m working on them all of course !

 

[ICHIGOBLEACH]

Foxxxxxx!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[FrozenHobo]

off-topic,

but who do you want the most ?
Yoshi Story, Melee Fox or Pichu ?

i m working on them all of course !

you're overdue on YS....

 

[Revven]

off-topic,

but who do you want the most ?
Yoshi Story, Melee Fox or Pichu ?

i m working on them all of course !

Yoshi's Story (since it is the one most complete), then right after that Melee Fox vertex imo.

 

[Sora-kun]

YS then Fox. Fox will exist whether he has the vertex or not. YS isn't in P:M yet so it will be a bigger addition.

pichu is too cute tho D: can you animate his taunts? those are just <333

 

[King Funk]

Yoshi's story. Fox is optional. Yoshi's is like ESSENTIAL. =D

 

[ValTroX]

YS, then fox.

 

[FireBall Stars]

I guess you know what I will say. lol