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Project M Social Thread

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Kink-Link5

Kink-Link5

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Translucent

Translucent

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Wario doesn't have good range, poor recovery, unreliable combos, and gets comboed pretty hard.
 
DMG

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DMG#931
Wario is a tricky character that heavily punishes you for incorrect tech chase options and for non stellar DI on his throws/weaker hits. I don't want to say that he's gimmicky, but his power does go down quite a bit if you correctly DI all of his throws/Bite Mixup, if you don't pick terrible options on the ground during a tech chase, etc. He's not broken but his mixup potential is scary. Like scarier than Strong Bad grabbing you and threatening a myraid of tricky throws or turn around shenanigans.

Wario doesn't have much on floaty characters, but he kind of functions like Ganon vs them: get a few solid hits here and there and they'll die to something staple quickly.

It's pretty easy to name better characters than Wario, and his MU spread vs some of the better characters is not fun. He's generally versatile at MU's, but has no real answer to Fox Falco Marth Sheik. Those 4 should consistently beat him. Outside of those 4, he's still not dominating vs Peach Sonic Pit Jiggs Mario Wolf etc. The first actual solid MU's for him may start with like, DK or Ike or something. Maybe Bowser? He doesn't really feel like he has super easy MU's with other people in high tier, coupled with definitely losing to those 4, it's hard to put him up really high. Take DK and Bowser for example: if you poorly DI his stuff or get tech chased to hell, those 2 MU's are ridiculously easy. If you don't get "cheesed" by Wario though, he doesn't stand out as character that still would cleanly 6:4 them.
 
JCaesar

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I would muuuuuch rather fight Sheik or a spacey than Bowser as Wario. In fact, the original reason I picked Wario up seriously was because I felt he did a lot better vs Sheik than any of the other characters I was considering using in tournament (ROB, Martth, Snake, Mario, Diddy). That's only from personal experience though, and I tend to go ROB vs Sheik anyway because my Wario isn't very polished (except in teams Wario is BEAST).
 
DMG

DMG

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DMG#931
Bowser is fine for Wario, Bite goes a long way to stopping Bowser, making shielding and abusing super armor/abusing CC much harder than normal. If Wario did not have bite, he would struggle in the MU because there would be nothing stopping Bowser from shielding anytime Wario got close basically. Wario wouldn't have any strong shield pressure or cross up potential since 90% of options would cleanly lose to Upb. Bite can still lose to Upb, but it changes the situation from Bowser being completely safe in shield and forces him to gauge whether to use it when Wario gets close and risk getting baited. Bowser is huge and a bit floaty, so even with good DI he can be in trouble from either Bite toss and from quick Fthrow/Dthrow.

Sheik is really REALLY hard to approach as Wario. To give you a visual example, ask how Wario deals with a crouching/crawling Sheik. Her body is tiny and she basically completely nullifies aerial approaches due to it. Landing on top of her with an aerial isn't viable, and he can't really challenge her on the ground much. If she decides not to go that route (which I think is really good vs Wario and really good vs a lot of characters that she couldn't do so well in Melee), she still outspaces him in the air and has the ground mobility to keep up with Wario's approaches and retreats. Marth is also in the same boat for Wario mobility wise, you can't usually corner him or catch up to him.

Wario is decent at CCing the usual Sheik options, but Sheik can also CC back the responses usually. Like if Wario CC's a well spaced Sheik Ftilt, his only option generally is a quick Dtilt. Sheik can then CC that Dtilt herself. Sheik doing Ftilt and holding down is a big problem unless you have read and outspaced that Ftilt with your own Ftilt or Side B.
 
Z'zgashi

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As a Bowser user Ive always felt I had a bit of an advantage on Wario. Not much tho.
 
DMG

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cmart said:
What stops Bowser from fairing Wario whenever he closes in on Bowser? Weaving away?
Click to expand...
Not much. I don't think Wario can challenge that well, maybe Bair spaced perfectly would win? More likely you would trade or Wario would lose, Bowser Fair is a monster. Wario doesn't want to be diagonal to Bowser at full hop height, he has no answer at all. At SH height though or transitioning from ground to air, it's a bit easier to deal with or bait. Like SH at Bowser and airdodge down somewhere if he goes for that option. Honestly you're probably better off staying grounded, and only doing that option when Wario is trying to go above you somehow. Like if he wants to full jump or DJ to close the gap, you throw that out and he has to really respect it. Overall though it's harder to deal with a grounded Bowser because Wario has to win the Shield/Upb/CC/Armor RPS, where as in the air Wario basically just has to avoid the range. You also have to worry about Wario getting a bit too close or baiting it. Fair at the right range will win nearly all the time, but will lose when Wario is near his body with Nair already out or coming out, which leads to bad things. It's easier for Wario to adjust where he is left and right, than it is for you to correct Bowser being airborne or grounded at the wrong time. You're not likely to grossly mess it up, but you do have to be more precise and read his choice better than Marth or Ike or Sheik would when trying to swat him out of the air.

The higher up/longer Wario is in the air before getting to Bowser, the more time you are giving him to respond and reposition appropriately, which is bad. Coming from higher above also doesn't leave you a good way to land or challenge Bowser if he Utilts/Uairs/etc. So sticking to SH height primarily is probably the best option, also giving you the possibility of landing quickly and trying Side B or a regular grab or x option he isn't going to have high up.
 
JCaesar

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Bowser's fair is 90% of the reason why I think he wins the matchup, because it wins the neutral game so thoroughly. Shuffled fairs are very hard to punish when you have less than half his range (and no, bair does not even trade) even with Wario's mobility, and Bowser only needs 4 or 5 of them to end a stock, less if he gets you offstage. This isn't theorycraft, it's personal experience against probably the best Bowser on the East Coast with my admittedly unpolished Wario, so take that for what you will. I do need to work Bite into my game better, but I don't think Wario's pressure is hurting once he gets in. It's getting in in the first place that's a problem, and you can't Bite through Bowser's fair.
 
cmart

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While I wouldn't assert the mathcup as strongly as Jcz, I did bring up fair to show that Wario has more problems in the match then trying to deal with Bowser's turtling game. Having to cede air control to Bowser in the neutral game (which is the gist of your post DMG) is already a pretty big problem, no matter how you spin it.
 
Juushichi

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The only thing that is literally broken is being meteored on a disjoint from two Wario's away with him standing next to the ledge and literally nothing but air between us. (My Fox, which was Firefoxing about that length away from the ledge, at 12% at Outrage 1)

The rest of the character is just kind of obnoxious. I could name things like his obscene shield shredding on usmash or his generally favorable weight in CCing out of most characters moves, nair that upon any sort of small hit can be followed up by Wario's chosing even on CC or dtilt which he can essentially mash out multiples of in front of my GnW before my own dtilt comes out the first time... (reminiscent of 2.1 Ike whiffing his ftilt in front of me before I got hit anyway while trying to punish)

But those things don't really need to be changed... okay maybe that dtilt one, because, **** Wario's dtilt. He's a strong character and an obnoxious one if you don't play like Bowser or a spacie or something. I'm still relatively convinced that Marth struggles with him, but the Marths in my area are bad/probably don't know the MU, so there's that.

EDIT: Also don't be fooled DMG. Wario absolutely ****s on Jigglypuff. No pun intended.
 
Professor Pro

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SpiderMad said:
I've got a random question. How is Wario NOT broken? Wizzrobe said he's broken, and he's REALLY good at knowing that which he knew immediatly with the new Sonic while Leelue was crying. I'd like to hear more from Wizzrobe
http://smashboards.com/threads/on-the-topic-of-fox-falco-hate.335016/page-2#post-15400776
Click to expand...
This comment made me facepalm so hard.....

And lol @ some of the posts in this thread
:awesome: I want to become a professional at theory crafting, it helps more than playing the game. :awesome:
 
Yung Mei

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wario isnt broken lmao

far from it

dtilt is too good though

and nair is just disappointing to get killed by
 
Yung Mei

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speaking of streams, tomorrow around 5:30-6:30pm, my friends and i are gonna be streaming a game that isnt smash


not sure what game yet, but if you saw last time we streamed super mario world, expect more **** like this
 
Spiffykins

Spiffykins

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SpiderMad said:
No RARing in Melee sucks so much
Click to expand...
Hell yeah it does. I wish more Melee players realized how dope PM is so I can stop torturing myself with its controls. I don't mind Brawl players being out of the loop though because it's hilarious when they look at the CSS and go "...where's Meta Knight?"
 
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