Production Values and the Smash Community

[MattDotZeb]

Well this is a bundle of disorganized. Getting there though.

At this rate we'll have a bunch of people cover a bunch of the same stuff, and some different stuff.

But, that actually sounds pretty good now that I'm thinking about it.

 

[Ryobeat]

Well this is a bundle of disorganized. Getting there though.

At this rate we'll have a bunch of people cover a bunch of the same stuff, and some different stuff.

But, that actually sounds pretty good now that I'm thinking about it.

Should we assign jobs/roles to people in this thread?

 

[Seartu]

What about just short videos of top players who are likely to place well. Could display top finishes/wins at recent events, mains and secondaries, etc... Could really even just be like nice PowerPoint slides to show right before they play.

 

[Stevo]

this is a good idea all around

 

[SciFiGuy]

On the subject of stream filler time:

I think having a tournament-specific intro would be great. Obviously this would only be feasible for the big international tournaments since it can be expensive and/or time consuming, but a professionally done intro is a great way to bridge gaps in events that traditionally have a lot of down time. It would be very difficult to make it happen but it would be great for a tournament.

Even a lower production value one would could be great, but here's a few ways it could go:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dszFWI8ST4 (Features players. Probably not possible because it would involve bringing them all together before the tournament.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrSNWP683D4 (Features the players as well, but animated so you don't have to actually film them)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPdET_nZuFA (Minimal. Sponsors + tournament name. Much easier to make.)
Or it could feature the game, but I couldn't remember any good examples of that.

Again this is not possible for almost anyone but if a tournament has the ability/funds to make something like this happen I think it's something the should consider.

EVER 2007 is my favorite intro of all time!! And Jaedong royal roaded it <3

Anyways this is a dope idea

 

[JKJ]

Making a smash video?
It seems the time has come.

I summon the almighty.

V3ctorMan, COME FORTH!

 

[Dan Salvato]

Please let me know if there is any way I can help with this, as I would love to see it happen. Music, Dolphin video recording, storyboard, whatever. One of my biggest aspirations is to reach out to the casual crowd.

 

[SpiderMad]

One of my biggest aspirations is to reach out to the casual crowd.

You coded the code that replaced glorious buffer in P:M, hurting the casuals to no end

 

[Dan Salvato]

You coded the code that replaced glorious buffer in P:M, hurting the casuals to no end

Buffer is still there, just moved to a different spot. Please bring the discussion here: http://smashmods.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=5732

 

[Ripple]

we should just have it be whoever makes the best one first makes the rest

 

[prog]

I'll be making a video tonight addressing this.

 

[Naughty Pixel]

a video following up a video about making videos

 

[Bones0]

Idk how you guys were planning on organizing this, but I think it'd actually be worthwhile to have a separate video per technique (but a solitary long video might be better for the super basics like SHFFLing and WDing).

Video 1: "Lag Cancelling"
- Lag cancelling, usually abbreviated L-cancelling, is used to cut the landing lag of normal aerial attacks in half.
- Explain how to do it (# of frames before hitting the ground, how you only have to light shield or press Z).
- Explain how to use it (how the timing varying based on whether you hit or whiffed because of hitlag, and different moves have different amounts of hitlag).

Video 2: "SHFFLing (prounounced Shuffling)"
- Using short hops in order to aerial grounded opponents quickly and safely
- Using different fastfall timings in order to reduce the amount of time you are airborne after attacking (either for safety on shield or greater followups on hit confirms).
- Vid showing why SHing is often better than FHing (Marth walling with FH double fairs vs. SH double fairs as an opponent tries to run in after the first fair)

So as a general outline, each vid would go:

Video X: Tactic X
- What to do
- Why to do it
- How to do it
- Show how it's done

Also, I think it'd be very smart to create a single MAIN video from which all other videos can be found.

"Super Smash Bros. Melee - Advanced How To Play Tutorial"
- Quick intro to explain the purpose of the tutorial
- Outline of all the tactics that will be explained USING ANNOTATIONS
- The purpose of using annotations will be so that the video can be edited over and over to add in links to new techniques or tutorials. Looking back at the original AHTP, the only way to update it is to paste an annotation on top of a certain part, which just looks extremely tacky. If the outline is presented in annotation form, we have much more flexibility in linking to other tutorial vids that may not be originally planned.
- It'd look something like this:
"Here is a list of many of the advanced technique tutorials you can quickly learn from:
[ LAG CANCELLING ]
[ SHFFLING ]
[ DASH DANCING ]
[ WAVEDASHING ]"

Oh, what's this, a third party not working with this project made a nice video on using dash dancing as a spacing tool, and another person made one as tool for covering tech options better? Simply edit it in as a subsection to the dash dancing annotation:
"[ DASH DANCING]
--- [ SPACING ]
--- [ COVERING TECH OPTIONS ]"

Boom. Everything the community compiles can be added in without a hitch allowing this video to establish itself as a steady source of Smash knowledge instead of eventually becoming outdated or outclassed and having to restart from 0 views (which is a big deal for projects like this because having a single video serve as a hub makes it much easier for new players to find what they want quickly and easily, and also be able to rely on its credibility). This system also encourages people not directly aligned with this project to go on their own to make a tutorial about whatever they please. Maybe I want to make a tutorial about multishining cause I think it's cool and underused. I can make the vid, submit it to whoever will run this channel, and if they think I have valuable-enough points in the video, they can simply add a linked annotation under "Character Specific Techniques" or w/e. This narrows the actual project's goals to simply providing barebones basics in terms of techniques, and relieves a lot of the pressure of adding or explaining stuff that is important, but not critical for a new player to learn in order to get visual mileage out of the tactic.

 

[Nintendude]

All good ideas in here so far. I think we should take notes from college and professional sports. During down time they show player highlights, instant replays, and general hype videos (usually these are kind of like hype history videos). During more extended periods of down time they talk about the match - strategies, history between the teams / players, etc. I also like when they have player interviews BEFORE the match actually starts (pre-recorded interviews). It just helps the viewer feel more connected with the player and having a before-and-after perspective is pretty neat.

I think that any instructional videos should be extremely specific. A 3-minute break between matches isn't a good time to go over like 5 advanced techs. Rather, have, for example, a video on all the nuances and applications of float canceling. If we eventually amass a collection of like 10 or so videos, one for each major advanced tech, then streamers can just cycle through them throughout the tournament as they wish.

 

[V3ctorMan]

Making a smash video?
It seems the time has come.

I summon the almighty.

V3ctorMan, COME FORTH!

*awakens*

why have I been summoned?



xD <3

 

[Bones0]

Where's Axe Effect 2, *****?! KoC alone has half the combo video!

 

[Revven]

Was this ever posted: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZtkuMRDtEQ ?

I think it falls under this topic, Eggm just made it. What does everyone think of it?

 

[CanISmash]

speaking of a how to in certain matchups is there anyway we can get someone with action replay to have a perfect shino sttall by sheika nd then show how to consistently grab the ledge

 

[prog]

So, I'm back with some updates.

First and foremost, to any of you aspiring video editors or musicians who would like to submit music for these videos or maybe even take on the editing duties for these videos, please PM me, I'm trying to get a group together to start getting some of this made.

Now, for the videos:
1. The 2-3 minute short how to play video - Getting together a team to construct this video. Looking for someone to remix the How To Play music as drum and bass.

2. The revised How To Play video - Hopefully the same team will construct this video, will be looking for music submissions from smashers to go underneath as audio.

3. Filler video (short matchup guides (1 minute?), short player history (30 seconds?), deconstructing an advanced technique (30-1 minute?). Haven't done anything with this yet.

4. The MANifest series. I'm looking for someone to take over this project, or at least the editing for it. Basically, this project has players (new or upcoming) submit a set (friendlies, money match, tournament, pools, whatever) to be critiqued. The first match of the set will be done by a character specialist. So, for example, a Samus loses to a Fox and wants help. Hugs would critique the first match giving things to look for, basic character knowledge, etc. That audio is tossed over the first match. That is passed along to Hungrybox. He gets the audio from the first match to help him expand his character knowledge and he critiques the player from a much broader view. That audio is plopped on, and handed over to D1. D1, as a commentator, will look at the most basic things: spacing, whether the player is aggressive at the right time, approaching misguidedly, etc.

It's a way to get rookies and such invested in the community by having some of the players they look up to go ahead and give them advice. Plus, it goes beyond that one player as any main of that character can take the matchup/character advice, and just about anyone would love basic advice and mantras from the smash elite.

So, again, this is a call to action. Anyone who wants to help, please do so.

Thanks.

 

[Pakman]

For the manifest series it might benefit from a group of people running it rather than an individual.

It could honestly be discussed via an email chain.

 

[prog]

For the manifest series it might benefit from a group of people running it rather than an individual.

It could honestly be discussed via an email chain.

Yeah, I have it already running through a facebook group. We have submissions, people who've said they want to contribute advice. That's the easy part, the hard part for me right now is getting time to edit the audio and video together, but yeah, that could work as well.

 

[Ryobeat]

Prog , is there anything I could specifically do? I don't know how to help because of my young age, but I would help.

 

[ranmaru]

I wonder, for the video editing thing, does it have to be avid video editors, or can anyone 'learn' how to do so? (Or is this something that usually takes a degree at least to start)

Just wondering. (Also wondering if that's a positive for some people to learn how to video edit to help out the community)

 

[prog]

Prog , is there anything I could specifically do? I don't know how to help because of my young age, but I would help.

I see you constantly watching streams. What would you like to see during downtime in addition to this? What else can we put forward as a community to gain interest during streams, or to put on a youtube channel for someone new to the game? I have ideas, but I'm relatively short sighted, what else can we do?

I wonder, for the video editing thing, does it have to be avid video editors, or can anyone 'learn' how to do so? (Or is this something that usually takes a degree at least to start)

Just wondering. (Also wondering if that's a positive for some people to learn how to video edit to help out the community)

Nope, we can use Final Cut or Premiere editors too.

When I first started making videos, I was just learning how to do it. Fortunately, a lot of the editing software is non-linear so easy to use that just about anyone can pick it up, fiddle with it and be able to put something together.

It sounds like stabbedbyapineapple is going to take over the MANifest project, which is huge, but I'd love to have other people to help him out with that, as well as these other projects.

 

[Acryte]

1. Amazing idea, makes it more professional and increases involvement from casuals in down time. Good stuff

2. If its a group project we should not only look to standardize the general breakdown of the videos, but also the video quality and settings for the encode. Last thing you want is a great video with terrible audio or at a crap resolution. We could simply agree to 480p unless these were being recorded in dolphin and then could be recorded at higher resolutions... this would look better on HD streams provided our streaming standards grow over time to match the output an APEX or many FGC streams.

3. Prog, you the man.

 

[prog]

1. Amazing idea, makes it more professional and increases involvement from casuals in down time. Good stuff

2. If its a group project we should not only look to standardize the general breakdown of the videos, but also the video quality and settings for the encode. Last thing you want is a great video with terrible audio or at a crap resolution. We could simply agree to 480p unless these were being recorded in dolphin and then could be recorded at higher resolutions... this would look better on HD streams provided our streaming standards grow over time to match the output an APEX or many FGC streams.

3. Prog, you the man.

1. Exactly. I'm working full time as a producer and you can ask Solid Jake, we've been going back and forth on what we can do with these situations. Others like them, and how to increase our visibility and entrance the casual viewer. The hardcore will always be in the stream or go to our youtube channels, we have to appeal to the person watching for the first time as well.

2. Definitely. I'd love for it all to be done in Dolphin at 720 P, audio being an AAC or v0/320 mp3. I'll be making a facebook group today to get all of this off the ground.

3. Nope, I'm just focused right now.

The facebook group for production:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/218433984958450/

 

[prog]

So, might be time for an update on this topic:

First off, a lot of people saw Maximillian's video about Melee at EVO which included a call to arms for content creation. So, I'll give you guys an update on what's going on, who is in it, etc.

1. Advanced How To Play (the updated Wak video):
Scripting: KK, Lucien
Storyboarding: PewPewU? Boback? KK
Recording: Internet Explorer (Dolphin, 720p)
Music: Going to need 3-6 songs depending on final length. Zoso? Papa John? Meta?
Timeline: April?

2. Short How to Play (2-3 minute abridged version focusing on our advanced techniques, performance and application):
Scripting: Toph, Strong Bad
Storyboarding: ?
Recording: Chred2AKrisp (Dolphin, 720p)
Music: Remixed version of How to Play Song. Looking for this to be remixed still.
Timeline: March?

3. Filler video (20-60 seconds on player history, deconstructing an advanced technique, character matchups/strengths/weaknesses):
Scripting: Ripple and others
Storyboarding: ?
Recording: ? (Dolphin, 720p)
Music: Remixed version of How To Play Music

4. In depth tutorials:
Scripting: Various individuals including Eggm, Fuzzyness, Pakman, MattDotZeb Storyboarding: Done by the same individuals.
Recording: Done by the same individuals
Music: Up to their discretion.

5. Melee with FGC Concepts:
Scripting: D1, Alukard, Bum, Forward, Falcomist
Storyboarding/Recording: prog (will need to rent camera/sound/lighting equipment)
Music: To be decided later.

Of these, 2, 3, and 5 are all stream content (can also be hosted on youtube), 1 and 4 are too in depth/long and will only be hosted on youtube.

All of this stream content will be made available to the community, so if you want to use any of this at a local all the way up to APEX/Genesis/FC, you are more than welcome to.

I'm also a huge fan of making as many things as possible homogenous. I'd prefer for everything to be the same font, setup, etc., but I know that won't be the case. I'll be setting up a template later.
------
That being said, still looking for volunteers. Are you amazing with Dolphin? Want to help out by recording in 720p? Let me know.

Musician? Want to remix SSBM classics like Broken Silence, Encore, To Forgive is To Forget? Let me know.

Editor? Up for some Final Cut Pro practice to help put some of this together? Please let me know.

Want to put some tutorials of your own together? Let me know. I'm making a youtube account for everything to be hosted in one centralized place.

Also, for #5, I will have to rent equipment, might start a kickstarter for that shortly. Either way, expect a video update from me on the topic shortly.

 

[Stratocaster]

First, this is all amazing.

One idea I don't think has been discussed is post-game commentary. I would love to see guys like Dr. PP and M2K talk through some of their matches, discuss what they're thinking, why they do what they do, give deeper incite into the events then we can see. People commentating other people's matches is great too. I just think that there can be much deeper commentary if there is some pause to give the speaker time to flesh out the events and to watch it a couple times to catch everything. Live commentary is relatively shallow, but that's not a complaint as much as just a consequence of the "live" aspect. Things move too fast to discuss everything. I would LOVE this personally. If anybody watched the pre-Spirit bomb show with the Europeans commentating people's matches, it was soo informative. I think it'd be even better if they paused it a little to give more time to speak so it's more like "events > commentary > events > commentary" rather than trying to do both at once.

I think this would both give incite to new players to understand what is actually going on in a match and to players like me who have a good foundation of technical depth and general strategies/ fighting concepts, but need help moving to that next level.

I also would want to push for good organization. I want to be able to FIND these things. If you need to, you should give someone the assignment of organizing these things so that they are easily accessible, preferable from a couple different directions. If you find one thing on youtube, it should be easy to find the others (things being on the same channel) and an organized thread on smashboards.

I really want to volunteer for some recording or music, but I really can't commit myself to any more major projects until May. This is all so awesome, and I'll see if I can't get involved in a few months.

 

[Revven]

If I had the time, I would offer any of my basic editing skills. But I don't, unfortunately, so all I can do is support you guys all the way from the sidelines. This really needs more attention in general.

 

[KrIsP!]

Post game commentary is happening with the smash lab. It's obviously very post but post nonetheless.

 

[pokemongeof]

Great idea Prog! I think the people in every sub character board should make a video on how to play that character, like the people in the Brawl Luigi boards!

 

[Pakman]

Great idea Prog! I think the people in every sub character board should make a video on how to play that character, like the people in the Brawl Luigi boards!

That is a pretty good idea.

My contribution is more for short interesting videos for low tier characters but not necessarily a how to play type thing.

Prog, do you think we could get a logo or something to show that we are all doing this together and that it is part of a similar project?

 

[prog]

Prog, do you think we could get a logo or something to show that we are all doing this together and that it is part of a similar project?

Yep, was trying to think of a name first. It'll all be hosted on the same youtube channel, wanted to use the same font, size, etc. I posted in the production group about a template, has yet to be finalized/made.

 

[Tee ay eye]

im willing to be a volunteer for stuff.

 

[Goodin]

Prog, what are you looking for in the how to play video.. if it is just basic tech and stuff, I can get video clips with my HDPVR.
Even though I am not well know by any means, I would really appreciate it if I could contribute in some way.

edit: I saw your look for 720p from dolphin :/ , im pretty sure the most I can get is 480p

 

[Acryte]

Buying a new HDPVR (I broke my last one :/ ) want to help but I will be going out to sea (Navy) soon so idk how much I will be able to with limited uploading/downloading potential.

1) Conduct interviews with players that regularly make bracket. We can show these alongside player history vids that describe tournament histories etc.
2) Should standardize something like a 2 or 3 MIN CHAR RUNDOWN. Breaks down kill moves, ability to control the stage or air, best approaches and maybe key techniques / nuances and recovery mixups. Basically get you acquainted with the Char. Possibly list unfavorable or even matchups. Then the people might be like "OH SHIIII DOC IS BEATING SHIEK BUT THAT MU IS TRASH YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!". builds hype when they understand that someone is overcoming a character disadvantage by being a complete boss.

3) Advanced How To Play
4) Something like Gimr's Metagame minutes breaking down melee metagame-centric techniques that change matchups....
5) Short tech skill vids or combo vids
6) Individual advanced technique vids (or as prog said, a lengthy one as well as a bare bones quick and dirty one)
7) The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly (DIRECTIONAL INFLUENCE + TECH CHASE) - series of small vids showing character specific DI and tech chase tips. What bad DI does against falcon. What good DI does to escape the combos. Where you should try to DI certain grabs or hits that maybe aren't completely obvious. What are the tech chase mixups said char has at his disposal. How do I escape his chain grab or at what percent range can I escape it etc.
8) Matchup vids, ones that break down common matchups and things to look for in them. Stuff involving the top 10 or so chars gives us a lot to work with. Keys to the matchup that is about to be played, such as Fox/Falco, Marth/Ganon, Fox/Puff etc.
9) Melee with FGC concepts.
10) Match breakdowns commentated by pros.
11) Biggest Upsets/Comebacks ... maybe biggest beatdowns (where both players are good ... not mango crushing kids in pools).

We should work towards establishing a format we can use for these various instructional vids etc and build up our video assets. If we had unifying visual elements between videos etc it helps bring it all together professionally instead of being a hodgepodge of videos. It also makes it easier to create the videos because people don't have to create these visual formatting elements, they can pull from the samples and put a vid together easier. You know, somebody makes up real nice graphics and we standardize a few small things like Font and Font size and positioning of elements in the vids etc.

Guys the biggest thing is just starting, as scar said. I remember when in the Zelda Speedrunning Community we talked about making a website over and over for a couple years and becoming our own entity for zelda speedruns (since we create all the content why have sda determine the rules for our runs). Then eventually me and Cosmo were like **** it let's do this, we cooked up the website and then once we had that basic template, everyone started contributing and making the individual pages.... all we needed was that kickstart. I feel like this is the same exact thing. We just need the templates and that initial momentum.

I say light a fire under this project and build up some streaming assets for EVO!

 

[luzbwl]

I think something like this should be made http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ye3KVgI1LvU this was done to teach street fighter players understand how kof is played and why. Melee has even more diferences with traditional fighters and pointing them out and explaining how players take advantage of this diferences would help a lot in understanding melee.

 

[Yomi-no-Kuni]

That is a cool video!
Having a video like that for smash, showing the main differences between traditional fighters and melee would help a great deal for every non-smash player to understand whats going on.
could cover shorthops, l-cancel, grabgame, how combos work (Di/knockback),... would have to cover alot of stuff, but i think it'd be worth it

 

[luzbwl]

I'm a noob at melee but the things I recognize as diferences with the traditional fighters are movement, the shield and its properties, DI, the ledge and edguarding, the wakeup game or thechase and the grabs and throws (in traditional fighters you can't grab somone in the air with your regular grab, for this you have to use an airgrab that can't grab someone in the ground).

 

[prog]

I saw a lot of great ideas (Acryte), but some problems. On jury duty, so I'll address the rest later:

1. player interviews - gotta record the interviews when everyone is at one place (at a major, when they might have a match, want to stay warm, etc.) and also rent equipment. definitely a stellar idea.
2. character breakdowns - in the process, part of that filler video, we can probably get it all down to :60
3. advanced how to play - being made.
4. metagame minute - part of the filler.

will address the rest later, but of course, we can't do this without help! please let me know if you can assist with anything.