Palpi
Smash Hero
jumpman, nobody is always consistant, no matter what character, that remark was pretty stupid 
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Predictions for Tier List v4 (Includes overview of entire cast)
- Thread starter Pierce7d
- Start date
Sushi-Man
Smash Ace
Marth losses to mk and ddd 40:60 and maybe rob.
How is 5th inconsistent? Assuming you mean a major tourny 5th is still consistent when you usually get around 3rd.
I just don't see how Wario could be better than marth. Yes marth may be doing better in tournies right now, but that doesn't change which character is actually better. A seriously bad match up against MK is nothing you can just shrug off. How have marth's been dealing with high level MKs these days anyway?
I just don't see how Wario could be better than marth. Yes marth may be doing better in tournies right now, but that doesn't change which character is actually better. A seriously bad match up against MK is nothing you can just shrug off. How have marth's been dealing with high level MKs these days anyway?
- Joined
- Feb 6, 2009
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They outplay them.
From back when I was paying attention to smash marth mains literally had to outplay mk for the whole match to barely win. Something must have changed or been found or something. Either way, if that's the case then marth should stay where he is, because marth mains getting better has nothing to do with the tier list.
Elyssa Xey Hexen
Broken!
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You know, Falco does more inconsistent than Diddy, and yet Falco doesn't change any. So why only look at Diddy's tournament results as being poor. Falco has been lagging far more often than Diddy has. At least a Diddy has come in the top of a major tournament instead of the top 8/16.
Marth can beat MK.
It's a lot better than what I can say for other characters who just don't really have the options to beat a turtling MK.
It's a lot better than what I can say for other characters who just don't really have the options to beat a turtling MK.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
Until he gets D3 offstage.
But yeah, I agree that it may be a disadvantage for Marth, it's certainly frustrating.
Matamune
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2009
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- 19
Oh so true. I have a buddy of mine who plays diddy a lot and his "Naners" as he calls them can be more frustrating then damaging. if I get worked up with irritation over them i seem to hit them more, but if you stay level headed and just make sure to take note of them you can get around them easy. Truth be told, if you get on top of one throw it back cause diddy trips over them just the same as you do if ya throw them back.
Diddy has ADHD doing amazing stuff from time to time, but I believe Falco to be the better character based on matchups. Diddy gets at least 60/40'd by snake, probably a lot worse. Then again, Diddy be laying traps so IDK.
I believe Icies are way overrated for reasons that DMG has stated. They suffer way too much from counter picks and gay play. Platform camping, gliding under stages etc. I think Meep said that if Icies lose game 1 they can't reasonably be expected to win a set since they'll just be gayed by the counter pick.
DDD is definitely better than ice climbers and probably better than Marth as a character but being ***** by falco and icies doesn't help his case. Marth only has meta as a really tough matchup with only one soft counter in DDD and some scattered slight disadvantages scattered through high tier + snake.
I can't speak for wario >_> Meh, this is how I'd expect the list to look as of today:
Mk
Snake
Diddy
Falco
Wario
Marth
DDD
Icies
And this is my personal opinion:
Mk
Snake
Falco
Diddy
Marth
DDD
Wario
Olimar.
humble
Smash Ace
I know that Snake receives mad rep and does well, but I still have to wonder. How has he remained #2 in the game with fairly obvious weaknesses; easily gimpable recovery, weak airgame, and poor approaches. Yes he weighs about a billion pounds and has crazy power and disjoints as well as an amazing item, but I still think he shouldn't be so high when other characters have lesser weaknesses and equal strengths.
GunmasterLombardi
Smash Champion
Those weaknesses don't matter cause his camp game, weight, tilts, and grabs (and nair) destroy most of the cast.
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
The thing is that every other character (thats not MK) either:
Doesn't have equal strengths
or
Has even greater flaws.
Look at D3 for example. He can CG the majority of the cast at any %. That's a great strength. However, his recovery is even more gimpable, and has an overall slower attack speed.
Wario has insane aerial momentum, which is a great strength, but he doesn't have much in the way of range at all. Quite stubby range actually. And is slightly limited when it comes to KOing moves.
Falco has his lasers, CG, and reflector, but a very gimpable recovery, and lacks KOing moves.
Diddy Kong has his amazing bananas, but lacks good KOing moves, is on the light side when it comes to weight, and is only average in range.
Snake's air game, while slow, is still very strong and worth fearing. He doesn't need to approach at all with his nades and tilts, and while his recovery is somewhat gimpable, there are worse ones out there, and it still has great range.
Doesn't have equal strengths
or
Has even greater flaws.
Look at D3 for example. He can CG the majority of the cast at any %. That's a great strength. However, his recovery is even more gimpable, and has an overall slower attack speed.
Wario has insane aerial momentum, which is a great strength, but he doesn't have much in the way of range at all. Quite stubby range actually. And is slightly limited when it comes to KOing moves.
Falco has his lasers, CG, and reflector, but a very gimpable recovery, and lacks KOing moves.
Diddy Kong has his amazing bananas, but lacks good KOing moves, is on the light side when it comes to weight, and is only average in range.
Snake's air game, while slow, is still very strong and worth fearing. He doesn't need to approach at all with his nades and tilts, and while his recovery is somewhat gimpable, there are worse ones out there, and it still has great range.
Dedede is not better than Wario. Wario has a hard counter (as of now) in the ICs, a tough matchup with Falco, and a few bad matches in high tier. (ZSS has an advantage either 55:45 or 60:40 and Pika I think is 60:40 or so.) Wario I think has bad matchups against Marth, Peach, and maybe Luigi which are less of a big deal.
Matamune
Smash Rookie
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- 19
In the words of Hitomi of DoA. All it takes is one good hit.....I find snakes recovery if used improperly just once, is good meteor smash material especially for heavier characters with a strong spike.
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
That's a player error, not a character error. Yes, some characters can punish Cypher. However, a good Snake will keep that to a minimal, most likely by recovering high/DIing high, and Nairing down. Or something like that.
humble
Smash Ace
About his camp game also...how is his camp very good at all, when he can only attack every 5 seconds because of his grenades pullout, cooking, and eventual explosion? His projectile is even more predictable then Din's fire, at least Zelda gets to pick when it explodes, everyone can just count to 3 when snake pulls out his grenade. Sure its hard to approach him because of his crazy disjoints, but why would you need to? the majority of the cast have projectiles, and in my opinion they often beat out snakes.Those weaknesses don't matter cause his camp game, weight, tilts, and grabs (and nair) destroy most of the cast.
His weight means he survives really long when you try to hit him out the top, however I find it matters a whole lot less when you focus on knocking him horizontally and then gimping his horrible recovery (once again, very predictable and easy to knock him out of)
His tilts ARE amazing, and there can be little debate about that.
His grab range is nothing special, nor are all of his throws except his tech chase, but it is very rare for it to last long. And his nair is not great at all, it can be SDI'd out of and has horrible landing lag (as do all his aerials)
His strengths are overrated and his weaknesses are underexploited.
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
His camping game is one of the best. It easily leads to stage control when adding in C4 and Landmine. He can duck under a bunch of projectiles, grenade shielding, grenade stripping, cooking them, various ways to throw them, ect.
Nair is good for coming down from up high. It will end right before he hits the ground, projecting him the whole way. And there are ways to use his aerials without landing lag.
Missle > Din's Fire. Less predicable, more movement, more control over all, can be used for edgeguarding decently, ect.
I think you need to look into how good Snakes play more.
Nair is good for coming down from up high. It will end right before he hits the ground, projecting him the whole way. And there are ways to use his aerials without landing lag.
Missle > Din's Fire. Less predicable, more movement, more control over all, can be used for edgeguarding decently, ect.
I think you need to look into how good Snakes play more.
I don't think so. I think you're just theory crafting too hard.
mountain_tiger
Smash Champion
What about semi-spikes?
GunmasterLombardi
Smash Champion
Two words: limiting options.
Play some good Snake and you'll see what I mean. Snake is also good in stage control. You can have a C4 on one part of the stage, a mine at another + the grenades. Doing this can limit some ppl to one thing to do w/o taking damage but that's where snake hits them.
You don't have to actually throw the grenades. They help in break grabs, sheild attacks (holding one with your sheild up, then it explodes hitting opponent not you), sheild breaking (not often) and again, stage control.
Play some good Snake and you'll see what I mean. Snake is also good in stage control. You can have a C4 on one part of the stage, a mine at another + the grenades. Doing this can limit some ppl to one thing to do w/o taking damage but that's where snake hits them.
You don't have to actually throw the grenades. They help in break grabs, sheild attacks (holding one with your sheild up, then it explodes hitting opponent not you), sheild breaking (not often) and again, stage control.
Sorry humble, but it sounds like you don't know how to cancel Snake's aerials, never been pivot grabbed by a Snake, never been camped by a Snake who tilts you or DACUS's away when you get too close, nor even had a nair follow your trajectory (rising nair or falling nair will follow you while you rise or fall, and if he hit you, he's going to make sure you're right in the middle of the hitbox and not on the edges, by closing in on you as much as possible).
Snake's only flaw is his recovery... If he is forced to use it from a low place for whatever reason made him find himself there, then he is probably going to get gimped... And almost all of the current high tiers can do that safely offstage.
Snake's only flaw is his recovery... If he is forced to use it from a low place for whatever reason made him find himself there, then he is probably going to get gimped... And almost all of the current high tiers can do that safely offstage.
Nefarious B
Smash Champion
Snake's strengths are underated by just about everyone ive ever heard claiming he should be lower than 2nd.
Snake easily has one of the best camping games around. Nades are huge pressure, and combined with stripping he controls the stage better than all but a handful of characters. Nades also deal huge damage, so you cant afford to get hit a couple times while trying to get in, unlike other projectiles. That's without mentioning his stationary moves that cut off more of the stage.
His weight is a huge factor, not only does it mean that he will outlast you more often than not, it allows him to be extremely defensive with grenade countering and come out on top. This is one of the best defenses in the game, and it comes out in frame 1.
He has (easily) the best killing ability in the game, and when you combine that with the factors I listed above, you have to outplay him with the vast majority of characters just to overcome the vast kill/death differences.
As if that wasn't enough, he's fast for such a heavy character, has a very good recovery for someone his weight, and has some of the best range in the game. I wont even go into his grab game, which i feel actually hasn't been looked into enough (they can air release CG some characters then dthrow at the ledge, which makes the chase even more effective).
Snake easily has one of the best camping games around. Nades are huge pressure, and combined with stripping he controls the stage better than all but a handful of characters. Nades also deal huge damage, so you cant afford to get hit a couple times while trying to get in, unlike other projectiles. That's without mentioning his stationary moves that cut off more of the stage.
His weight is a huge factor, not only does it mean that he will outlast you more often than not, it allows him to be extremely defensive with grenade countering and come out on top. This is one of the best defenses in the game, and it comes out in frame 1.
He has (easily) the best killing ability in the game, and when you combine that with the factors I listed above, you have to outplay him with the vast majority of characters just to overcome the vast kill/death differences.
As if that wasn't enough, he's fast for such a heavy character, has a very good recovery for someone his weight, and has some of the best range in the game. I wont even go into his grab game, which i feel actually hasn't been looked into enough (they can air release CG some characters then dthrow at the ledge, which makes the chase even more effective).
Bottom line is that Snake has a ton of flaws. But so far people have been unable to exploit them. If and when people find a way to get through his camping game to exploit his flaws he should go down. As of yet it hasn't happened and there is really no denying on any grounds that Snake is the second best in the game.
Justblaze647
Smash Lord
Name three of his flaws.
I think this a pretty accurate statement. Everybody knows Snake has many flaws, but why is nobody exploiting them well? It's very arguable that the player with the most matchup knowledge on top/high tier characters is M2K, and he still has trouble approaching and beating Ally. Whether they place 2nd and 3rd as Snake/Diddy or Diddy/Snake I think will be a result of the BBR deciding the tier off of actual results or theoretical data. I think the tier should look something like this:
S tier: MK, Snake, Diddy, Falco, IC
A tier: Marth, Wario, DDD, GaW, Pikachu, Olimar
You can decide the rest for yourself, but I think everybody's placement on this list is arguable to be correct, but, I could be wrong. I hope someday Marth will be in S tier, but he doesn't have any overpowered tools like those 5 in S tier do, but is better than all the characters below him in A tier.
What do you all think?
Alphicans
Smash Hero
One of these days snake will fall. Maybe even below top5.
EDIT: Blaze: very gimpable recovery, limited aerial mobility and hopeless in the air if chased correctly.
EDIT: Blaze: very gimpable recovery, limited aerial mobility and hopeless in the air if chased correctly.
What people need to do, if they want to prove Snake is bad, is try to find as many "Wario on Brinstar" combinations against Snake as possible, or close enough to that where Snake obviously struggles. People have the mentality that because Snake has grenades, that you have to approach, which already puts them in a spot where they feel obligated to approaching and we all know how bad approaching is. The idea that you have to approach a character who has a projectile might be true... if you don't have the lead. Understanding that fully is the first step towards finding a stronger advantage on a character.
No safe approach options, poor air game, poor gimp game, poor air mobility, poor recovery.
I'm not saying that he doesn't cover these flaws well but they are there and its very possible that they can be exploited at some point in the future. Or maybe they never will. Who knows.
Biggest weaknesses in order IMO:
Poor Air Mobility/Landing Options/Poor Air Game (He's bad at a lot of things in the air basically, biggest flaw is air mobility as that leads to his bad landing options and bad overall air game trying to hit people).
Limited Recovery. It covers a great distance, but it isn't as safe as he would like it to be.
Limited approaching methods. He has good approaching moves, just a bad way of safely getting to that spot and using them. Ftilt is fine for approaching, same for Mortarsliding/dash attack in some spots, but his approaching intentions/paths are clear cut. He isn't weaving in the air or playing a tricked out ground dodging path.
Poor Air Mobility/Landing Options/Poor Air Game (He's bad at a lot of things in the air basically, biggest flaw is air mobility as that leads to his bad landing options and bad overall air game trying to hit people).
Limited Recovery. It covers a great distance, but it isn't as safe as he would like it to be.
Limited approaching methods. He has good approaching moves, just a bad way of safely getting to that spot and using them. Ftilt is fine for approaching, same for Mortarsliding/dash attack in some spots, but his approaching intentions/paths are clear cut. He isn't weaving in the air or playing a tricked out ground dodging path.
Browny
Smash Hater
I think people need to differentiate between a poor air game, and a predictable air game.
im sure many characters wish they has a 28% aerial or just one as powerful and long lasting like his bair
his lack of ability to cover himself from the front/bottom while landing is the major factor here imo. if he could b-reverse a grenade into a bair instantly, well maybe that would fix things lol
im sure many characters wish they has a 28% aerial or just one as powerful and long lasting like his bair
his lack of ability to cover himself from the front/bottom while landing is the major factor here imo. if he could b-reverse a grenade into a bair instantly, well maybe that would fix things lol
His air game is poor because he has bad mobility AND because it is predictable.
Nair is SDIable, and punishable. Bair is ok but if he misses he almost certainly is worse off. Dair is... ok. If you get one kick hit, it usually leaves them above you in the air while you can try to fall and recover.
Nair is SDIable, and punishable. Bair is ok but if he misses he almost certainly is worse off. Dair is... ok. If you get one kick hit, it usually leaves them above you in the air while you can try to fall and recover.
This is the exact reason the Marth vs. Snake MU has people thinking it's 55-45 rather than 60-40. Marth can juggle very well and Snake is big time juggle bait and we're starting to see top level Marth's compete well with top level Snake's (MikeHAZE and Ally). If some other characters can find a way to exploit these weakness of Snake and change their MU ratios closer to even or putting Snake at a disadvantage, I think we could easily see Snake fall beneath Diddy Kong.
P.S. Marth does well against Snake on Brinstar as well.
Snakes B reversal and fast fall speed make his air recovery harder to predict than you're making it sound, especially if he recovers high, PLUS he can drop nades/C4s/Nikitas on the way down. Im not saying its not punisheable etc but if Snake recovers high he's usually far from helpless, and as long as he outsmarts you on the way down he can usually avoid taking damage.
Thats why it's easier said than done. There's always the mix up factor, mainly against good snakes.
Thats why it's easier said than done. There's always the mix up factor, mainly against good snakes.
Matamune
Smash Rookie
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Predictable is a lot worse then poor. A LOT worse.
Elyssa Xey Hexen
Broken!
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^This. Many other characters have this same fault of poor recoveries, but when you look at it, Snake probably has an above average recovery. He can recover from pretty much anywhere offstage given the ability to tech the stage. You push Snake far enough offstage, it's not enough. He'll just keep coming back until he finally dies from a strong it. And because of this it gives him plenty of time to find that one time you mess up and he gets back on stage. And from there, you are stuck having to deal with a disadvantage.
And it's not enough to simply predict his recovery because there is an escape. Suppose he is recovering from below you go to try to spike him, he let's go of the cypher and C4 recoveries causing you to get hit by the cypher. Sure, he is still being juggled, but that is one scenario averted. Sure,you might be able to hit him in his recovery again when he comes back up, but will he stay low and C4 enough damage out of your range before coming back up? Or perhaps just C4 recovery right to ledge, tech, and autosnap it. He recovery is far from totally predictable. He has more than one option available to him, and therefore, a human cannot always guess correctly when you have to commit to one option or another.
I know he has decent options if he recovers high but he doesnt always have to be hit while he's in the air to be juggled. He has less options as he's landing and it's easier to get him back into the air at this point. Take Marth for example, and you can see this in videos of MikeHAZE and Ally. He doesn't necessarily hit him in mid air with an aerial to juggle him, a lot of the time he reads his landing and pivot grabs into an U-throw to reset the situation.
So yes, Snake does have decent options after recovering high, and good Snake players will use these options, but likewise, a good player with a character that has decent juggling tools can combat these and maintain this advantageous position.
I guess it truly does depend on the skill level/experience of the players, but I thought I'd use MikeHAZE and Ally since they're top level players.
Elyssa Xey Hexen
Broken!
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There you go again, another scenario with multiple outs. Snake can either go for the stage, or go for the ledge. By recovering on high, you cannot cover all of these options. By going for the stage, you need to try to predict his landing path which could either be far out from the ledge or closer to it. He can mix it up with b-reversals to change his landing site. You take the aerial approach, he just air dodges past you. Or, if you decide to go far ahead of him, the ledge is always there. And if you guard the ledge, he has more methods of mixing it up.
Predictability is not as easy as many people make it out to be and the whole notion of predictable anything being a fault becomes less and less the higher in skill you go.
Discuss all you people like, I really do not think Snake will be going down. If anything, his position has actually strengthened since the start of Brawl. All his bad match-ups are turning into neutral ones. DDD vs Snake is no longer as bad as people used to make it out. ROB vs Snake was at one point a 60-40 lead for him, now I am seeing Snake and RoBs starting to change there opinion that it is actually neutral, maybe even Snake's slight advantage. Olimar is still widely believed to be Snake's worst match-up, but the range is really split. I see supporters for 70:30 against him, and 50-50, but most find a place between 60-40. Who knows, maybe people will see it being 50-50. Then Snake would almost be like MK and have virutally no bad match-ups, nothing worse than 45-55.
Actually, this is a major trend happening in a lot of areas in Brawl. Many match-ups are becoming more and more even as time goes on. Once believed to be strong or soft counters are coming down a notch to be soft or even match-ups. Perhaps Brawl is finally stablizing into the balence Brawl many hoped for. Obviously not everyone has that advantage when you look at Ganon, but many others might become tournament viable because of this.