Predictions for Tier List v4 (Includes overview of entire cast)

[DMG]

I can maybe see DK rise about TL and Pit (even though I believe at the core those two are at least slightly better than him). I don't think DK is that bad, but looking at his matchup spread it doesn't suggest much. He has harder counters than TL or Pit (Dedede is definitely harder for him to beat than MK for TL/Pit. Even with the Infinite removed, Wario and Dedede still give him a good run for his money. Not to mention the solid 60:40 or potentially higher matchups against him like Falco, Diddy, and MK.) He also doesn't have many "strong" advantages over notable characters. MK beats him, Wario beats him, Falco does, Diddy, Dedede, characters like Olimar too can give him a good run for his money. DK doesn't do that strong against the top tiers. Even in the A tier, his better matchups are at the lower levels. IDK who he beats 6:4 in either top tier or A tier. Actually, even looking at the people ahead of him in B tier, I don't see a 6:4 matchup in his advantage. I don't think Marth loses to DK 6:4, nor Kirby, ROB, G&W, IC's, etc.

If he doesn't even have a 6:4 matchup in his favor against the characters above him, then he better pull some weight HARD if he wants any real shot at advancing up.

 

[Kitamerby]

I can maybe see DK rise about TL and Pit (even though I believe at the core those two are at least slightly better than him). I don't think DK is that bad, but looking at his matchup spread it doesn't suggest much. He has harder counters than TL or Pit (Dedede is definitely harder for him to beat than MK for TL/Pit. Even with the Infinite removed, Wario and Dedede still give him a good run for his money. Not to mention the solid 60:40 or potentially higher matchups against him like Falco, Diddy, and MK.) He also doesn't have many "strong" advantages over notable characters. MK beats him, Wario beats him, Falco does, Diddy, Dedede, characters like Olimar too can give him a good run for his money. DK doesn't do that strong against the top tiers. Even in the A tier, his better matchups are at the lower levels. IDK who he beats 6:4 in either top tier or A tier. Actually, even looking at the people ahead of him in B tier, I don't see a 6:4 matchup in his advantage. I don't think Marth loses to DK 6:4, nor Kirby, ROB, G&W, IC's, etc.

If he doesn't even have a 6:4 matchup in his favor against the characters above him, then he better pull some weight HARD if he wants any real shot at advancing up.

I'm not to versed on the others, but does Diddy really do THAT well against Donkey Kong? I've been hearing that the matchup is even left and right from notable players, with some even saying DK might have the advantage. The fact that Cable took out New Jersey recently also may mean something about the MK matchup being more even than we'd imagine.

Or it may just mean that Cable is the best player in the world, like I've been telling you guys all this time.

 

[DMG]

Ksizzle has told us that he beat Cable with his MK, then switched to Snake for Grand Finals. Lost first set, gave up second set. Which is fine, I don't have a problem with what he did. But that suggests Cable beat his Snake with DK, not his MK.

Diddy definitely 100% has the advantage on DK. Almost without question. If you think G&W has a hard time approaching Diddy, you should see DK try to approach Diddy. When played well and patient, Diddy beats DK very solidly. 6:4 sounds reasonable for Diddy, 65:35 certainly isn't out of the question to be honest.

 

[Kitamerby]

Ksizzle has told us that he beat Cable with his MK, then switched to Snake for Grand Finals. Lost first set, gave up second set. Which is fine, I don't have a problem with what he did. But that suggests Cable beat his Snake with DK, not his MK.

I see.

Diddy definitely 100% has the advantage on DK. Almost without question. If you think G&W has a hard time approaching Diddy, you should see DK try to approach Diddy. When played well and patient, Diddy beats DK very solidly. 6:4 sounds reasonable for Diddy, 65:35 certainly isn't out of the question to be honest.

Hmmm, I was just going off of what I've heard. I don't actually know enough about the matchup to draw any conclusions for myself. You have a good point, though, I guess.

But what about the whole weight and killing issue, or DK's ability to handle bananas? Is Diddy's banana control really great enough to overcome the obstacle of actually killing the big lug first? I hear DK has a great glide toss as well. I'd hate to be on the other end of what he could do out of it. <<

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

I see.


Hmmm, I was just going off of what I've heard. I don't actually know enough about the matchup to draw any conclusions for myself. You have a good point, though, I guess.

But what about the whole weight and killing issue, or DK's ability to handle bananas? Is Diddy's banana control really great enough to overcome the obstacle of actually killing the big lug first? I hear DK has a great glide toss as well. I'd hate to be on the other end of what he could do out of it. <<

it true that DK has a great glide during his glide toss but his throwing animation is very slow. So often he will be hit by the 2nd banana before he gets to throw the one he is holding. I don't play diddy or DK but i know people who do and that happens a lot in the MU

 

[Matamune]

Tiers kill me. I main ike And it just seems like the people who are on the top are the ones everyone plays with. No one puts the time into any of the other characters so they do not progress. And yet i become frustrated because I see what people say and its like "Why play with Ike. Sure its fun to play as him and Im more comfortable with him but ill be a much tougher opponent to beat if I play ZSS or falco or MK." There seems to be no point. Why ike when you wont win? Someone once told me "Man your a great ike!" but the next person sat down and played MK and Completely shut me down. I didnt know what to do. I was completely frustrated and couldnt help but blame the tier. SSBB is supposed to be about fun first and foremost but if I cannot win simply because the character i like wasnt "Programmed" to be good how the heck can it be fun? I could be the GREATEST ike in the world and yet a Snake of equal skill will win everytime. Fricken most frustrating thing ever.


Sorry if this comes across as whning but I really hope someone can set me straight.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Do you enjoy being a good Ike? There's nothing wrong with that, it's just the nature of fighting games that some (or even most) characters are not sensible choices if you want to win.

But contrary to what some people will tell you, winning isn't everything. It's about your own priorities. To paraphrase something TKD said, it's not your fault Ike is a bad character.

 

[FunkMaster]

huh besides Diddy Kong being better then Meatknight and Ice Climbers being top tier, I'd

say the list is pretty right. Of course.

 

[Nefarious B]

I hear DK has a great glide toss as well. I'd hate to be on the other end of what he could do out of it. <<

I just want to point out that how good your glidetoss is has nothing to do with it being longer. IMO Dk has one of the worst glidetosses. It's -too- long, to the point where it's unwieldy. This means that you need to have very specific spacing to actually hit someone with an attack out of it compared to Diddy, who can use his glidetoss to microspace.

You also have to consider what options DK has out of a gt, and as someone said because of his long throw animation, combined with his long GT he will have a tough time actually setting up a big smash, as sexy as the idea sounds in the first place.

IMO, a GT slightly longer than Diddy's or slightly shorter than ZSS's would be ideal.

 

[Matamune]

Do you enjoy being a good Ike? There's nothing wrong with that, it's just the nature of fighting games that some (or even most) characters are not sensible choices if you want to win.

But contrary to what some people will tell you, winning isn't everything. It's about your own priorities. To paraphrase something TKD said, it's not your fault Ike is a bad character.

Why have all these "bad" characters. Just as a novelty? I put my time and effort into being a good ike and yet according to tiers, I wont win.
I am a avid DoA player and I have never come across a time where i lost or won because my "character" was superior or inferior.

This game is like a lead on. "You think your good....but your not. There's a meta-knight out there who is going to destroy you just because he has a more diverse move-set!! Sorry! I know you like ike but well his programming sucks therefore no matter how hard you practice you will never get to that next level....and there's nothing you can do about it."

Smash brothers is a very funny game.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

I just want to point out that how good your glidetoss is has nothing to do with it being longer. IMO Dk has one of the worst glidetosses. It's -too- long, to the point where it's unwieldy. This means that you need to have very specific spacing to actually hit someone with an attack out of it compared to Diddy, who can use his glidetoss to microspace.

You also have to consider what options DK has out of a gt, and as someone said because of his long throw animation, combined with his long GT he will have a tough time actually setting up a big smash, as sexy as the idea sounds in the first place.

IMO, a GT slightly longer than Diddy's or slightly shorter than ZSS's would be ideal.

i disagree with what u said. ROB is someone with a really long glide toss and i find it easy to do things out of it. Grabs are super easy, gliding d-smash is also very nice and easy, honestly there is nothing tough about hitting with any of his smashes out of a glide toss (besides up-smash unless the oponent is above me). In fact long GT has another advantage of putting u right next to the item u throw once its over if it missed letting u pick it up and GT again.

I have seen a DK use GT and it seems easy for hm to GY yo D-smash so thats not the problem for him, the problem is his throw animation is slow and thats what makes his GT worst then others.

 

[-Ran]

Why have all these "bad" characters.

In order to have good characters, you must have bad characters. It's the nature of fighting games. You can either learn a catch all character [Aka a Top Tier] or you can learn multiple low tiers to cover a plethora of match ups. You just cannot seriously go into a tournament with Ike as your only character.

 

[Ledger_Damayn]

Tiers kill me. I main ike And it just seems like the people who are on the top are the ones everyone plays with. No one puts the time into any of the other characters so they do not progress. And yet i become frustrated because I see what people say and its like "Why play with Ike. Sure its fun to play as him and Im more comfortable with him but ill be a much tougher opponent to beat if I play ZSS or falco or MK." There seems to be no point. Why ike when you wont win? Someone once told me "Man your a great ike!" but the next person sat down and played MK and Completely shut me down. I didnt know what to do. I was completely frustrated and couldnt help but blame the tier. SSBB is supposed to be about fun first and foremost but if I cannot win simply because the character i like wasnt "Programmed" to be good how the heck can it be fun? I could be the GREATEST ike in the world and yet a Snake of equal skill will win everytime. Fricken most frustrating thing ever.


Sorry if this comes across as whning but I really hope someone can set me straight.

A few things I saw wrong with this post. A game isn't supposed to be about anything. It's use and intentions are dependent on the people who play it. Some play it for fun, some play it to win and perhaps earn money. That's up to them.

Tiers don't make characters good or bad. Character's performances validate their positions on the tier lists. Sure, a lower tier character will attract less people to play that character, but with a game that lacks technical complexity like Brawl, how much could a low/bottom tier's metagame actually progress even IF everyone played them...

You pretty much hit the nail on the head with the programming comment. It's clearly their fault for about 95% of the flaws in the game (I'd attribute the other 5% to random stuff like fundamentally decent->good characters being underrepresented, Ike notwithstanding). Sakurai invented the monsters that are MK and Snake, so he must have been shooting heroin if he though that they would even be FUN to play against, better yet competitively fair.

I don't really have it in my heart to take Brawl seriously since **** like random tripping and simple to execute infinite chaingrabs (non-IC's) are rampant. Brawl+ is better in almost every respect.

edit: I actually think MK and Snake are really fun to play against, lol.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

A few things I saw wrong with this post. A game isn't supposed to be about anything. It's use and intentions are dependent on the people who play it. Some play it for fun, some play it to win and perhaps earn money. That's up to them.

It's like ok... we are getting very literal by definition lol

Tiers don't make characters good or bad. Character's performances validate their positions on the tier lists. Sure, a lower tier character will attract less people to play that character, but with a game that lacks technical complexity like Brawl, how much could a low/bottom tier's metagame actually progress even IF everyone played them...

Which always bugged me. What is the purpose of the tier list anyway. It seems to provide nothing more than a means of discussion. Then I reazlized the tier list is probably a very important tool. Without, probably many characters might not be nearly as devolped in their metagames.

You pretty much hit the nail on the head with the programming comment. It's clearly their fault for about 95% of the flaws in the game (I'd attribute the other 5% to random stuff like fundamentally decent->good characters being underrepresented, Ike notwithstanding). Sakurai invented the monsters that are MK and Snake, so he must have been shooting heroin if he though that they would even be FUN to play against, better yet competitively fair.

Ness, Lucas, Bowser and DK getting awkward ground release animation stuff which makes them to better or worse depending on the situation.

I don't really have it in my heart to take Brawl seriously since **** like random tripping and simple to execute infinite chaingrabs (non-IC's) are rampant. Brawl+ is better in almost every respect.

Tripping hardly every happens to anyone I know, and it is normally of little consquence. Infinites are like anything else, it takes skill to avoid them.

edit: I actually think MK and Snake are really fun to play against, lol

I totally agree.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

In order to have good characters, you must have bad characters. It's the nature of fighting games. You can either learn a catch all character [Aka a Top Tier] or you can learn multiple low tiers to cover a plethora of match ups. You just cannot seriously go into a tournament with Ike as your only character.

*looks at San and Kirk*

Ya might wanna make that "It's extremely difficult to seriously go into a tournament with only Ike."

 

[Gnes]

from me...?
I don't think anyone in brawl is hard to play really, if you know how to play in general you should be good with anyone as long as you know the matchups. :/

Ur wrong.


DMG Diddy vs Dk is not 65-35...60-40 at worst 55-45 at best. U would be surprised the weird things DK can do in this matchup.

 

[DMG]

Brawl+ is like MUGEN honestly. You guys probably will never have a uniformed, set standard "version" of Brawl+ that everyone accepts. Partly due to how modifiable it is. Even if you have a well balanced game, you might have people argue over whether Jigglypuff's Rest should act like Melee or regular Brawl, if Tilt Locks/Jab Locks/CG's/Infinites/Grab Releases/etc should be allowed, etc. The game changes constantly. One update, Jigglypuff is ********, the next Falco is, the Next Wolf is, the Next Marth/G&W/MK/Snake/etc are.

As for Glide Tosses, there are many aspects of the Glide toss that people don't evaluate when considering who has a "good or bad" Glide Toss.

The distance the character slides period is evaluated as either good or bad depending on other factors. How long it takes the character to release the Banana is one of them. Another is how fast they recover from the banana toss. The last one is where the character ends up when the Banana first touches the ground, and what they can do from that point.

Donkey Kong has a long Glide Toss. He can cover a lot of ground with it. However, his "toss" is bad. He takes a long time to throw the banana, he takes a long time to recover from it, and he usually ends up in bad positioning once the banana reaches the ground. Overall, this means his Glide Toss is bad.

As for Donkey Kong vs Diddy, someone mentioned the Killing issue for Diddy? That is a minor issue in the big picture. Think about it: if DK cannot safely approach Diddy 90-95% of the time, it would be easier for Diddy to get a lead, not even WORRY about killing, and just rack up safe damage on DK.

It's kinda like Shiek. Shiek is usually said to have a hard time killing, besides a surprise DACUS or Usmash in general. She usually DOES get a % lead at the start though, with multiple combos and hard frame traps and what not. So why don't Shiek players focus on getting that lead, doing a ton of damage, and then making the other guy approach instead of taking tons of damage trying to get the kill? The same for Diddy against DK. Sure, Diddy might not kill him for a long time, but who is to say that is the only "plan" one can take to win? It's much safer for Diddy to just sit back and camp hard than it is for him to start approaching, trying to see when Fsmash/Dsmash/Fair will kill.

Edit: Gnes IDK I don't think it's that close. I think it's pretty much guaranteed 6:4 for Diddy overall, maybe somewhere inbetween 6:4 and 65:35, like 62:38 or something.

 

[Luigi player]

DK vs Diddy is imo ~60:40.

 

[Ragnar0k]

That matchup is so **** annoying for dk. Peanuts ****.

 

[V]

That matchup is so **** annoying for dk. Peanuts ****.

Yeah last night I watched two of my friends play, one DK and the other Diddy. They aren't high level players in the slightest, but they have pretty equal skill level and DK has a terrible time trying to do anything.

 

[Ragnar0k]

But dk only has to land like 5 hits to kill him, so it isn't that bad.

 

[V]

But dk only has to land like 5 hits to kill him, so it isn't that bad.

Good point, but if Diddy is smart with both bananas and popgun then DK will have a hard time getting those 5 hits. I'm not sure what the actual MU ratio is but I'm going to guess it's somewhere in the ballpark of 60/40 Diddy.

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

Yeah last night I watched two of my friends play, one DK and the other Diddy. They aren't high level players in the slightest, but they have pretty equal skill level and DK has a terrible time trying to do anything.

Reason why DK havin' trouble w/ Diddy's naner and peanut ****, DK has one of the suckiest camping but not the worse camper in the game, DK have to approach to Diddy really fast b4 Diddy whip out a naner.

 

[V]

Reason why DK havin' trouble w/ Diddy's naner and peanut ****, DK has one of the suckiest camping but not the worse camper in the game, DK have to approach to Diddy really fast b4 Diddy whip out a naner.

That's similar to how Marth has to approach Diddy. You can't give him any breathing room because once he gets his bananas set up and is in a rhythm, it's very hard for anybody to break his momentum. Marth just has an easier time than most at keeping Diddy from getting that momentum.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Link should be placed below Falcon, not above him.

 

[V]

Link should be placed below Falcon, not above him.

The only reason I disagree with this is because Falcon can't camp and Link can. Falcon has to approach and he has no good tools to approach with. For that reason I think Falcon will never be placed higher than Link.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

The only reason I disagree with this is because Falcon can't camp and Link can. Falcon has to approach and he has no good tools to approach with. For that reason I think Falcon will never be placed higher than Link.

Link has no good tools to approach with, he is forced to camp, that too with worthless projectiles.

His projectiles all have to be properly mindgamed to land, and they don't do much damage at all. Yes, they may lead to some good combos and locks, but getting those in the first place are hard.

Falcon may need to approach, and not have any solid moves, but he does have the speed and mobility to mind game and get hits in.

 

[zeldspazz]

You should probably say "has the attributes and/or tools to allow the player to mindgame" rather than CF mindgames, otherwise I can already predict people blasting you about mindgames not being taken into account.

 

[V]

Link has no good tools to approach with, he is forced to camp, that too with worthless projectiles.

His projectiles all have to be properly mindgamed to land, and they don't do much damage at all. Yes, they may lead to some good combos and locks, but getting those in the first place are hard.

Falcon may need to approach, and not have any solid moves, but he does have the speed and mobility to mind game and get hits in.

Yeah his projectiles may not be good just like Falcon's approach moves aren't good, but projectiles are better than no projectiles and at least he has a little bit he can work with. I'd put Link ahead of Falcon by only one spot though (depending on where you have Ganondorf). I think Jiggs is better than Falcon and Link as far as Fail tier goes.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

You should probably say "has the attributes and/or tools to allow the player to mindgame" rather than CF mindgames, otherwise I can already predict people blasting you about mindgames not being taken into account.

I'm quite sure general mindgames are taken into account.

 

[DMG]

Jigglypuff is easily better than Falcon or Link. Easily. She actually HAS good matchups against some of the higher tiered characters (Diddy, Dedede, Olimar, IC's on certain stages, etc). She is still not very good, but she can boast some fairly close, if not in her favor, matchups against some of the "big guns".

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Yeah his projectiles may not be good just like Falcon's approach moves aren't good, but projectiles are better than no projectiles and at least he has a little bit he can work with. I'd put Link ahead of Falcon by only one spot though (depending on where you have Ganondorf). I think Jiggs is better than Falcon and Link as far as Fail tier goes.

Projectiles are better than no projectiles? Really?

Then care to explain why Metaknight is first on the tier list? DK above Samus?

 

[V]

Projectiles are better than no projectiles? Really?

Then care to explain why Metaknight is first on the tier list? DK above Samus?

If Meta Knight DID have a projectile that he could even semi-camp with, it would be even harder for people to beat him. I'm not saying that if you don't have a projectile you suck, it's obvious that there are good characters without them (MK, Marth, Wario etc) but it at least gives you more options than having to approach everybody.

 

[Kofu]

Projectiles are better than no projectiles? Really?

Then care to explain why Metaknight is first on the tier list? DK above Samus?

Projectiles vary in degrees of usefulness and how they sync with the character's playstyle. Falco's and Snake's projectiles are some of the best, and they almost certainly wouldn't be quite so high if they lacked them. Samus traits aside from her projectiles aren't particularly good, while DK's are rather impressive.

 

[zeldspazz]

Some characters can camp without projectiles though drewk. Just remember that

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

But yeah, I agree with Link needing to stay above CF. Link's projeciltes enable a level of mixing up is game enough that surpasses CF. When you notice horrible CF's approaches are you realize that at least LInk can space which saves him.

Jiggs, Ganon, and CF are liked failed ditto attempts of other characters. I swear, when playing as kirby, I feel a slight shadow of jiggs in him/her... it.

Ganon feels a bit a like Snake in a way with huge range, weight and knockback power. The only problem is that ganon trades mobility, frame advantage, recovery and projectiles for more damage and knockback. HIs only attribute is to punish hard.

CF feels a bit like fox. Only CF fails in attack speed.

They all could have been great people if they only had a few more changes.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

If Meta Knight DID have a projectile that he could even semi-camp with, it would be even harder for people to beat him. I'm not saying that if you don't have a projectile you suck, it's obvious that there are good characters without them (MK, Marth, Wario etc) but it at least gives you more options than having to approach everybody.

There are alot characters who have to approach but are still considered good. Having to approach isn't bad. But, having to approach with low priority moves, low range, and laggy attacks can be a problem.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I maintain that Ganondorf and Captain Falcon are much worse than all of the other characters, including Link. Link is fairly poor, but he doesn't completely suck and doesn't have all awful matchups. For instance, he can fight somewhat effectively against Mr. Game & Watch. I mean, really, just look at Link. He has a good projectile game, a bunch of disjointed attacks, and a tether attack. How is that not better than Captain Falcon? Link and Samus are pretty much automatically better than Captain Falcon because of the tether attack alone really; tether attacks are really good in a way nothing Captain Falcon has is.

Jigglypuff is also just obviously better than Ganondorf and Captain Falcon, but DMG covered that.

Also, there being a ton of options for a hack doesn't necessarily mean it can't standardize. Thinkaman and I have access to the same tools Brawl+ does for Balanced Brawl, but by keeping the pool of developers very small (just the two of us) and doing infrequent releases of well thought out and tested, conservative changes (our plan is about biannually), we guarantee one standard game.

 

[phi1ny3]

Link's MUs should say something about him being better than C. Falcon. It's true that other character boards really like to screw the ratios and make it more even than it should be, but on the same coin the Link boards often have a reputation for underestimating their character in MU discussions, and even after this they still have better ratios (at least from what I've seen).

I hear C. Falcon can potentially air camp in some MUs though :3

 

[DMG]

That's the difference between your project and the Brawl+ project. I don't think there is as much effort into balancing the game in Brawl+ as much as their is effort into "exploring" what they can do. With Brawl+, they will tinker with the buffer rate/attacks/hitstun/etc not solely in an effort to balance the game, but also to "see" what they can do with it. You guys on the other hand modify the game in the ultimate goal of balancing the game, no distractions. If you don't think the buffer rate needs to be modified to have a healthy game, you guys won't modify it. If Brawl+ people want to, they will modify the buffer rate with some other goal in mind.

Brawl+ people have no problem turning the game into "their ideal creation" of a fighting game. You guys are satisfied with keeping the game as close to its roots/keeping the fundamentals intact as possible and just fixing the bad things. I have nothing against Brawl+, but I do think when it comes to achieving balance in Brawl that your project has a better way of doing so/does so better.