Path of Radiance: Ike Guide and Strategy Discussion

[Oblivion129]

How do you guys feel about ledge trumping at high-top level play? I landed one on Ally and secured game 5 with ledge pressure from him thinking I was gonna ledge trump(roll read up tilt)

Every Ike should have ledge trumping as a ledge option, imo. You can get a Bair, or Dair spike them on re-grab, or condition them to buffer a ledge option like what you mentioned and KO with Utilt or smash attacks.
Congrats on that, by the way. Any videos?

 

[GhostUrsa]

Is there anything we can get off of a Dtilt at 0%? The hitstun at 0 is too short for Fair to connect, but would something like a quick RAR Bair work?

Nothing guaranteed to combo, but I've used U-tilt, f-tilt, F-smash(Done this one more when they are off stage and stuck going for the snap after they get popped up.) and a dash attack depending on where I know my opponent will DI.

 

[Mario766]

At 0? Nothing.

At like ~10 percent you can get RAR B-Air to combo out of down tilt, but f-air won't work because the hitbox starts behind Ike's head and takes frame ~13 to connect.

If you get a D-Tilt at 0 you may as well go for an air dodge read with F-Air, RAR B-Air or try to catch them falling with an air dodge. If they are smart they will jump out and you try to start a juggle and punish their landing.

 

[1337Kai]

Is there anything we can get off of a Dtilt at 0%? The hitstun at 0 is too short for Fair to connect, but would something like a quick RAR Bair work?

I usually don't go for d-tilt at 0%, buuuuuut I'd say either nair or RAR bair would be your best options.

 

[Mario766]

At low percents off down tilt you can try to get a f-air if they jump and catch the jump.

You usually need about 30-40 percent before hitstun allows a F-Air follow-up. Though RAR B-Air works starting at about ~15-20 percent.

 

[Kaladin]

Hello, Ikes. Since you don't have Q&A, I'll post this here. I'm currently soul searching for a main, and figured I may as well see if I like heavies. I did some reading on this board, and I think I have some idea of how Ike's BnB works. However, I still need to get used to how ike feels, which means lab time. What should I work on? Aside from getting familiar with his hitboxes/movement/recovery in general, what are Ike things I need to practice? What do I work on? Combos, things to get spaced perfectly, etc?

 

[Mario766]

Work on his BnB combos, follow-ups off N-Air, D-Tilt and Up/Down Throw. Work on moving around his dash, which is very good.

 

[Baggy]

Alright, so I find that the matchups I struggle the most with are (naturally) fast characters. Particularly, characters with fast normals, fast movement speed, and fast rolls and dodges.

People like sonic, ZZS, and arguably luigi to name some give me problems because they're hard to defend against. They can punish mostly ALL attempts to zone them out, they usually have many combos, and their speed makes them very hard to read, get setups on, and keep out.

If fast enough, Nair can be punished on block as well as on whiff because of the landing lag. RAR bair, though an excellent footsie tool, leaves you open till you hit the ground if you do it right after you jump, and then has landing lag if you do it any later.

Jabs are a huge guessing game on block because you can either delay jab1 and jab2 for a frame trap, or halt either for a grab. Both options are susceptible to being mashed/grabbed/rolled out of. jab3 is a huge commitment and guaranteed to be punished on block.

Rolls really screw up everything, especially people with fast ones. Rolling behind ike is a strategy I see alot of people do on for glory because for all the walls ike can put up, if you get behind him the only thing he can readily hit you with is a perfectly spaced bair. And that's if you haven't left yourself open trying to jab or d-tilt. Getting out of that situation is tough because ike's roll is slow and if you dash, you cant shield until a certain point in the dash. Perfect pivoting is a faster option, but still not always fast enough to evade speedy characters.

One thing I do the least with Ike is dodge in place. I usually roll because I find that I like to reposition myself by rolling and when I dodge in place, I usually get caught anyway because his dodge is so slow, or the opponent is on top of/behind me and dodging in place doesnt really improve my situation. I wonder if i should be using (even spamming) it more.

I'll post videos to show these struggles but if it's just me being bad or some strategy im not using, please share.

 

[Kaladin]

So, I now know how to do Ike things, but my neutral is distinctly subpar. Ike's spacing seems odd. He wants to fair wall you, but he also wants to use his amazing CQC combo game... How should I space/what with? I use mainly retreating bairs, pivot ftilt, and fair, while always looking for a grab, dtilt, or nair.

Also, I know Ike's jab is good, but I don't use it. What should I be using it for?

 

[Arrei]

As his quickest move, possessing good reach and dealing respectable damage, jab's our safest and most reliable punish on moves with low lag, so use it to space and poke to fish for an opening, but take care that you recognize when you have an opportunity for a harder punish, and that you don't reflexively use Jab3 on shield, as that's very much unsafe. Properly spaced, you can challenge many other jabs with your own jab due to its reach, particularly on Jab2. Jab1 on floaties and Jab2 on fast-fallers can also open up for a grab followup, but that isn't guaranteed.

 

[GhostUrsa]

If nothing else, learn when to use it to shut down handsy players who want to grab you. It will help you keep up with speedy characters that love to grapple if you can bop them on the nose like a bad dog when they go for it.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Jabs make the sincere difference in the Rosalina matchup.

 

[GhostUrsa]

With the changes to Ike lately, what have other Ike players done against opponents that don't approach? I got knocked out of Winner's Bracket at my last tournament by a Rosie who just won't approach, did a good job of stopping my approach options. I'm curious what could have been done to get her to come out of her shell, and I've been thinking up ideas that would be safe against someone with a good range/disjoint. The big thing that comes to mind currently is waiting her out (which may or may not work depending on whether the opponent has a stock advantage), but I'm curious if any players have found a good way to bait someone out of their defensive shell with Ike's updated frame data.

In my case against Rosie, I tried spacing F-air and N-air to see if I could get her to go offensive but Luma's range made these pretty unsafe on shield. I had hoped I'd be able to knock Luma away with my swipe but Star bits surprisingly came out faster than my attack animation could connect.

 

[Rinku リンク]

I consider Eruption to be a pretty underrated edge guarding tool. Ryo's proven that it can be super effective when used right.

 

[Arrei]

Defensive Rosas are why I think Ike loses the matchup. Her walling is fierce and Luma increases her already high reach. Dashing in can be thwarted with Star Bits and Luma's attacks, jumping in gets stuffed by her massive Fair and Nair.

As for Eruption: Underrated? Really? I'm fairly certain it's one of the most potent edgeguard tools in the game. It's capable of destroying a lot of recoveries with some good timing and reading while putting Ike at risk of no more than getting a projectile in the face or a getup attack. Even if you fail it, if you released it too early it could fool opponents into trying a getup attack on your shield, which then leads into Dsmash or Utilt for the kill.

 

[Rinku リンク]

As for Eruption: Underrated? Really? I'm fairly certain it's one of the most potent edgeguard tools in the game. It's capable of destroying a lot of recoveries with some good timing and reading while putting Ike at risk of no more than getting a projectile in the face or a getup attack. Even if you fail it, if you released it too early it could fool opponents into trying a getup attack on your shield, which then leads into Dsmash or Utilt for the kill.

I agree with you entirely Arrei. I suppose some people still consider it a "bad" option since it wasn't really used in brawl.

Does anyone know if it was changed at all from brawl?

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Counter definitely works well against Mario's Up B. I just tested it. But you have to be very careful that:

A) He used his double jump already
B) He's at his low point or at the right angle
C) He doesn't have a fully charged FLUDD

Naturally, if you condition him with Counter, you can start baiting him for Eruption or Fair edgeguards.

 

[GhostUrsa]

I agree with you entirely Arrei. I suppose some people still consider it a "bad" option since it wasn't really used in brawl.

Does anyone know if it was changed at all from brawl?

Biggest change is that Super Armor only kicks in during the last 25% of the charge, so you have to worry about off-stage recoveries that have hitboxes. I'd claim that Eruption is more of an underutilized option from many Ikes since it is hard to get the timing down on when to release the explosion.

 

[Rinku リンク]

I see I see. Thank you for the info Ursa. I'd agree that not a lot of people know how to time Eruption effectively which is why it's underutilized.

 

[GhostUrsa]

I just created a new thread in the competitive forum on training/exercise regimens used by smashers to learn/practice/condition techniques and proper fighting standards into our routines. I bring this up not just to shamelessly plug my own thread (Though anyone who has developed a set of drills to learn/practice things like pivot grabs and foxtrot would be welcome to share for posterity sake) but to also add the question here for Ike specifically. What have you done to condition yourself to use some of Ike's tools effectively? How do you practice Ike's spacing, or Aether snap reach, or fast-fall F-air? This may seem like a simple question with obvious answers to some, but I do see the "How to do X?" question come up a lot with only a short video on how it's performed but not how it is taught to someone. And I know there are new Ikes here that would love to know what kind of structure would help their growth.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Ledge trumping never works out for me.

1) I can never get the Bair in time.
2) I don't have any other good options to use besides Bair, or at least that I'm familiar with using.
3) When I do ledge trump attempt, they have already rolled onto the stage. Now I'm put in the negative and they're preparing to punish.

What am I missing?

 

[the king of murder]

Ledge trumping never works out for me.

1) I can never get the Bair in time.
2) I don't have any other good options to use besides Bair, or at least that I'm familiar with using.
3) When I do ledge trump attempt, they have already rolled onto the stage. Now I'm put in the negative and they're preparing to punish.

What am I missing?

Trumping is a bit strict on the timing. You have to act fast.

You have to consider that if your opponent buffers a ledge roll, trumping is never going to work. That is the beautiful thing though. It's a mix up. You can trick your opponent by pretending to trump near the ledge but instead you read their buffered roll and pound them with a F-smash. If they don't do that you trump them and bair them. You don't have to use bair for trumping though. You can just do empty trumping to observe how your opponents react to it.

If you trump them, they are forced to ledge snap a second time which means no invincibilty on the ledge snap and depending on how high the body is, you can punish them with smash attacks or d-tilt. I don't think it works on all characters though.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Trumping is a bit strict on the timing. You have to act fast.

You have to consider that if your opponent buffers a ledge roll, trumping is never going to work. That is the beautiful thing though. It's a mix up. You can trick your opponent by pretending to trump near the ledge but instead you read their buffered roll and pound them with a F-smash. If they don't do that you trump them and bair them. You don't have to use bair for trumping though. You can just do empty trumping to observe how your opponents react to it.

If you trump them, they are forced to ledge snap a second time which means no invincibilty on the ledge snap and depending on how high the body is, you can punish them with smash attacks or d-tilt. I don't think it works on all characters though.

They usually try to fly into me with Fair/Nair. If it's an auto-cancel, they go right into jab/grab, or they space it away, making it very hard to punish them if they land.

 

[Arrei]

On occasion, I've managed to land a Dair spike on a ground opponent leading into Uair for the kill. Is that true on some characters or did they just not react?

 

[san.]

On occasion, I've managed to land a Dair spike on a ground opponent leading into Uair for the kill. Is that true on some characters or did they just not react?

It's true.

 

[AN(M)ist]

Love this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plHNKuL3NnI

But more on point, 1:11 and 1:18 you'll see that the last hit of aether doesn't connect (thereby spiking the opponent ofstage) if aether is used immediately the second time. Is this a thing?

 

[san.]

Love this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plHNKuL3NnI

But more on point, 1:11 and 1:18 you'll see that the last hit of aether doesn't connect (thereby spiking the opponent ofstage) if aether is used immediately the second time. Is this a thing?

Whoops, read it wrong. No idea. I would imagine it was just coincidence, there's nothing to really indicate that a second aether would have different behavior.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

On occasion, I've managed to land a Dair spike on a ground opponent leading into Uair for the kill. Is that true on some characters or did they just not react?

At what percentage?

 

[Arrei]

Well, in recent memory I landed it on Roy at about 80-90%. It's what prompted me to ask, because it looked like Roy was stuck in hitstun for pretty dang long considering I had to go through the Dair landing lag and double jump for the Uair. Wasn't even sure I'd reach him but there he went.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Well, in recent memory I landed it on Roy at about 80-90%. It's what prompted me to ask, because it looked like Roy was stuck in hitstun for pretty dang long considering I had to go through the Dair landing lag and double jump for the Uair. Wasn't even sure I'd reach him but there he went.

Is there any way to take a safe risk with Dair?

 

[Arrei]

Not that I've found. Endlag aside, the biggest opening in the world will still allow your opponent to tech the ground spike just by reflexively trying to shield at the moment of the hit. You might be able to get one off by stabbing your opponent in the head after weakening his shield, but shield damage is not Ike's forte and if you've happened to have weakened it enough you might just want to try to get a shield break instead.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Not that I've found. Endlag aside, the biggest opening in the world will still allow your opponent to tech the ground spike just by reflexively trying to shield at the moment of the hit. You might be able to get one off by stabbing your opponent in the head after weakening his shield, but shield damage is not Ike's forte and if you've happened to have weakened it enough you might just want to try to get a shield break instead.

All things considered, it doesn't sound heavily practical in the first place. I managed to sourspot Dair on my Charizard friend at a tournament and make the kill, though. It might be worth looking into.

 

[Arrei]

Yeah, having moderately high knockback on the sourspot is just about Dair's only real saving grace. Still, it's an option to keep in mind and capitalize on if you happen to pull it off.

Now that I think about it though, if your opponent is by the ledge and isn't a gimp-happy opponent like Jigglypuff, it should be reasonably safe to try the occasional Dair on them and just sail over the edge to avoid the landing lag.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Yeah, having moderately high knockback on the sourspot is just about Dair's only real saving grace. Still, it's an option to keep in mind and capitalize on if you happen to pull it off.

Now that I think about it though, if your opponent is by the ledge and isn't a gimp-happy opponent like Jigglypuff, it should be reasonably safe to try the occasional Dair on them and just sail over the edge to avoid the landing lag.

I think Dair's a great last-ditch effort, as well. Rosalina did to 8bitman what I did to Neos. If they go deep, it's a wonderful option.

 

[Arrei]

Do you suppose Aether has any merit as a punish once our opponent is too damaged for our combos to work? At 19-20% it's our second most damaging move, under FSmash which is too slow to use as a punish. With its set knockback it'll work no matter how damaged our opponent is, however, rage can mess with it pretty hard, as we all know Aether can act really wonky sometimes.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Do you suppose Aether has any merit as a punish once our opponent is too damaged for our combos to work? At 19-20% it's our second most damaging move, under FSmash which is too slow to use as a punish. With its set knockback it'll work no matter how damaged our opponent is, however, rage can mess with it pretty hard, as we all know Aether can act really wonky sometimes.

Aether is a wonderful punish. I use it frequently when my opponent pushes me to the ledge and I'm trying to recover from above. Oftentimes they get hit by it and take a ton of damage while I safely get back on stage.

 

[Liverpool19]

I'm a not very good smash player admittedly and I main Ike how could I improve my Ike game and my general smash skills. Thanks!

 

[GhostUrsa]

Liverpool19 Getting the fundamentals down is where you'll want to start for improving both those skills. Practice your spacing (both grounded and aerial), power shielding and aim will go a long way. Work on things like pivot grabs, tilts and Smashes will go a long way in improving your punishes.

 

[Liverpool19]

GhostUrsa Thanks for the tips I usually go on smash every day so I'll work on those things.

 

[GhostUrsa]

One way to practice your spacing and aim posted in the Training Regime thread I find helps when first learning Ike, or any character with disjoint, is using the bumper in training.

I saw a recommendation on another thread to use the bumper item to practice spacing with disjointed attacks. You put the item somewhere, then 'attack' the item to practice your attack animation without getting bumper-ed. Running drills with this for a bit will get muscle memory down for aiming your swings (if you're Ike for example) so you can focus more on your opponent.

Give it a try, as all of Ike's attack options but jab1, jab2 and grab have disjoint.