Data PacMan's M & Ms (Metagame and Match-Up) Discussion Thread

[Splebel]

I found this video while looking on the Kirby forums. it shows Kirby's true combo on certain powers and the second character is Pac-Man. It's just something to keep in mind while fighting Kirby.

 

[xzx]

You're playing the matchup wrong if you think that. Its same misplaced process that makes people think we lose badly to Sonic.

If it goes too well for PAC-MAN then the Villager is playing wrong. Pocket dude. But not only that. Yes, he have Power Pellet blocking things for a nice 2% replenish. That is, if Villager plays carelessly. He is a much better killer, zoner and flow-controller than we are.

Sonic is also bad. If Sonic gets hold of Bonus Fruit, then we have lost. Well, in a nutshell. But that's not solely why I think we lose to Sonic. His speed, punish game and incredible power while being able to avoid everything we have makes it a real uphill battle for PAC-MAN. Sheik is still our worst matchup though, according to me. (Followed by Mario.)

 

[Froggy]

If it goes too well for PAC-MAN then the Villager is playing wrong. Pocket dude. But not only that. Yes, he have Power Pellet blocking things for a nice 2% replenish. That is, if Villager plays carelessly. He is a much better killer, zoner and flow-controller than we are.

Sonic is also bad. If Sonic gets hold of Bonus Fruit, then we have lost. Well, in a nutshell. But that's not solely why I think we lose to Sonic. His speed, punish game and incredible power while being able to avoid everything we have makes it a real uphill battle for PAC-MAN. Sheik is still our worst matchup though, according to me. (Followed by Mario.)

I hate to be rude but you sound like you don't understand matchups. You have no need to peleet anything against Villager and you should really only be throwing keys at Sonic. Do you do well at tourneys?

 

[xzx]

I hate to be rude but you sound like you don't understand matchups. You have no need to peleet anything against Villager and you should really only be throwing keys at Sonic. Do you do well at tourneys?

You're not being rude, but judging me by one or two posts and assuming that those posts mean that I don't understand matchups is just bad. I didn't say we need to Power Pellet anything Villager sends at us, I just say we could but a smart Villager will be knowing that. Yeah, I agree that Keys (and to some extents Oranges) should only be used against Sonic for the most part of the matchup, but other Bonus Fruits can also be used depending on the situation. PAC-MAN has to be very cautious though. Still, Sonic can still grab a thrown Key. Well, since you asked, the only real Smash 4 tournament I have attended was B.E.A.S.T. V (took place at the beginning of this year), Europe's biggest smash tournament, at which I placed ninth. Note though that this was in the Hoh-Hah era, and to be honest I didn't played that well. I did not play optimally and compared to how I play PAC-MAN today, I would say I played pretty poorly. So I don't really know if I do well at tournaments, though I still consider myself as a pretty decent PAC-MAN player.

 

[Froggy]

You're not being rude, but judging me by one or two posts and assuming that those posts mean that I don't understand matchups is just bad. I didn't say we need to Power Pellet anything Villager sends at us, I just say we could but a smart Villager will be knowing that. Yeah, I agree that Keys (and to some extents Oranges) should only be used against Sonic for the most part of the matchup, but other Bonus Fruits can also be used depending on the situation. PAC-MAN has to be very cautious though. Still, Sonic can still grab a thrown Key. Well, since you asked, the only real Smash 4 tournament I have attended was B.E.A.S.T. V (took place at the beginning of this year), Europe's biggest smash tournament, at which I placed ninth. Note though that this was in the Hoh-Hah era, and to be honest I didn't played that well. I did not play optimally and compared to how I play PAC-MAN today, I would say I played pretty poorly. So I don't really know if I do well at tournaments, though I still consider myself as a pretty decent PAC-MAN player.

Go to more tournaments and I bet your opinion on a lot of this will change.

 

[Sinji]

I was mistaken. I tested dash attack into up B with a friend yesterday and Falcon can consistently grab us. I was using Wario's grab, F8, as a reference and Falcon's is F7.

Also, I'm beginning to think we lose to Villager. Trampoline doesn't help much because of slingshot + Lloid, and hydrant is just too dangerous to use frequently. Overall he can zone us better than we can zone him.

i guess it only beats dash grab since its frame 9

 

[BSP]

I 2-0'd two strong villagers at my last tourney and I was beating Magister(former number 1 on 3ds ladder) online when I played him online and I definately don't think we lose the matchup, it's probably in our favor

Trampoline is never too useful agaisnt characters who like to approach from the air so using trampoline neutral is never going to be too terribly useful in this matchup. Our projectiles beat his, namely really key. You shouldn't be using any other fruits in this matchup except for the occasional apple or bell to get a sneaky kill.

The matchup becomes pretty simply once you understand your goal is to constantly charge to the key over and over again and do this outside of fair range. Once villagers gets within fair range run away and charge somemore(don't block, just roll away and then run and char) when you get to the edge of the stag double jump over him and throw a hydrant down(or not if you can tell he is trying to bait it, his uair goes through the hydrant but it has bad range and is very easy to avoid). If he wants to pocket it then let him. Him trying to drop it on you is completely telegraphed, he can't pocket your fruit once its in his pocket and with our key we are very adapt at using it against him(I got key into double hydrant on my opponents)

Also try to avoid stationary platforms in this matchup, our projectiles beat his so keeping it as a straight projectile match is beneficial for us.

Ok Ill try all of this. How familiar were the villager players with Pac-Man though? Have they played many?

 

[Froggy]

Ok Ill try all of this. How familiar were the villager players with Pac-Man though? Have they played many?

I can't speak to there experience vs Pacman, I'd have to ask them about that. But it was a New England tournament, where the former number 1 Pacman in the country lives so I assume they must have some exposure. I mean Koolaid was even there at the same tournament.

 

[Sinji]

I'm starting to think Battle Field is a good stage for Pac-Man against Shiek. I'll give my feedback on my sets against Vinnie soon.

 

[verbatim]

I commentated a tournament where a ROB had to fight the best Sheik in our region and I think ROB's advantages on BF translate over to Pacman. Against the more defensive characters, she can simply dance around them and play super safe with needles and fair. If you go to BF you remove her ability to wall you out and force a more CQC situation. Pacman counterpicking to a CQC styled stage seems pretty oxymoronic until you realize that most of his fruit combo's don't really need that much space to be utilized, that he has significantly better close range options than any other zone based character, and that you do NOT want to give Sheik the option to outspace you. I did some tests with my friend and he was absolutely able to time me out with Sheik once he grabbed my fruit. At least on BF you can force her to fight you, as opposed to waiting for you to make a mistake.

 

[Splebel]

I commentated a tournament where a ROB had to fight the best Sheik in our region and I think ROB's advantages on BF translate over to Pacman. Against the more defensive characters, she can simply dance around them and play super safe with needles and fair. If you go to BF you remove her ability to wall you out and force a more CQC situation. Pacman counterpicking to a CQC styled stage seems pretty oxymoronic until you realize that most of his fruit combo's don't really need that much space to be utilized, that he has significantly better close range options than any other zone based character, and that you do NOT want to give Sheik the option to outspace you. I did some tests with my friend and he was absolutely able to time me out with Sheik once he grabbed my fruit. At least on BF you can force her to fight you, as opposed to waiting for you to make a mistake.

Couldn't she still grab your fruit and time you out on Battlefield? The only advantage I see is it's harder for needles to wall you out but you would still need to approach her.

 

[Sinji]

Here are my thoughts on my sets against Vinnie (regarding stage choices and the benefits/disadvantages). I'll start with the stages we should focus on first then the ones we should avoid.

Stages to look into


1. BattleField

​

At first glance, this stage is not good for us. We have a hard time creating room with the hydrant and Shiek can sweet spot upsmash anyone on the platform. The stage is a bit troublesome for Shiek. If we maintain center stage and we get grabbed, DI towards the platform and tech roll away to avoid the bouncing fish. If the Hydrant is on either side platform and shiek bouncing fish and the water shoots, it will push us behind and leave Shiek in mid air while the Bouncing Fish animation is still in effect. Use that time to get a free punish. We can platform camp since Shiek has to respect our hydrant decreasing her chances in grabbing us. We can stall in the air and charge our fruit with the large blast zones. We won't die early as well. Placing the hydrant on the base of the stage at different places will mix up our options. With BattleField being so small we can control a lot of angles. Their was a moment when I was on the right side of the stage charging fruit with the hydrant placed. I stopped charging and Vinnie was on the left side of the stage ready to land on the ground to throw needles so I can drop my fruit. I got a water boost upsmash from one side of the stage to the other before Vinnie could land. We can shark shiek since she has no where to run. Our trampoline has more use since it's more compacted. It can be used as a set up opportunity instead of just an escape option. BattleField is a stage we should look at. As long as Shiek isn't grabbing we do well in the boxing game.

2. Lylat

Like Battle Field, we can shark shiek from below. The slants allow use to get more Z drop opportunities. The slants also messes up her grenade edge guard.

3. Town and City

For this stage, you can keep it honest. You can kill Shiek early with the blastzones. The stage turns into FD at times which gives us a great advantage. I was able to create set ups against Vinnie at that moment. Throwing the bell at the top platform on the side will throw the shiek off mainly because besides up air Pac-man can't cover the top much. You get a free nair when they recover high to the platform and a stock. When it's FD your bell can catch her landing options.

Stages to Avoid


1. Duck Hunt

Sure we get a lot of space but Shiek has a lot of escape options. Vinnie had the percentage lead at one point and was camping on the tree. My up air couldn't reach him so I was force to go to the tree. He grabbed me and fthrow me into fair. After the set he said it was supposed to be an up air instead of a fair. I asked if I DI'ed differently, would it make a difference? He said no. It's a true string at low percents - mid percents. I could've lost my stock pretty early.

2. SmashVille

Simply put, we die early on that stage. The platform works so well for shiek and if we get carried by platform, we can die from a bouncing fish at 65%. She wins the neutral so well on that stage.



This stage is an iffy. I counter picked this stage and he went ROB.

Delfino Plaza. He says that this stage benefits ROB. I know that much. Iv'e seen him do it against Nairo a couple of times. But I don't know if it benefits us against Shiek. If anyone knows how that match up works on Delfino, let us know.

I didn't state FD because everyone bans FD against PacMan nowadays lol.

 

[MachoCheeze]

Guys I ask this from the bottom of my heart. What do we do against campy Mario? I have no problem with aggressive Mario, but for the life of me campy Mario is the bane of my existence.

 

[Froggy]

Guys I ask this from the bottom of my heart. What do we do against campy Mario? I have no problem with aggressive Mario, but for the life of me campy Mario is the bane of my existence.

Never played one before actually. I imagine pelleting fire balls is a big part of it.

 

[Sinji]

Guys I ask this from the bottom of my heart. What do we do against campy Mario? I have no problem with aggressive Mario, but for the life of me campy Mario is the bane of my existence.

The key out prioritize his fire balls. Also up b below him to beat his landing

 

[BSP]

Guys I ask this from the bottom of my heart. What do we do against campy Mario? I have no problem with aggressive Mario, but for the life of me campy Mario is the bane of my existence.

Do what Froggy and Sinji said. Mario really can't camp you because fireballs are very easy to pellet heal off of unless Mario is aggressively following them. Additionally, Mario's fireballs are a bigger commitment than they seem. You can mid range Key him for throwing a fireball and he can't do anything about it.

If he doesn't rush you down in the MU, take advantage of the time and get galaxian in your hand. You have 30%+ combos with that thing in your hand, and you can easily do them OoS if Mario capes your shield in fear. While fishing for galaxian, trampoline him over and over until he tries something else.

Nutshell: if he's not rushing you down, get galaxian or key in your hand and go to town on him.

 

[Froggy]

To add to what BSP said, you can also instant launch your hydrant at him with bair if he is recklessly throwing fireballs at you.

 

[BoxedOccaBerrys]

Time for me to ask a stupid question. Does anyone have tips on the Rosaluma matchup? since i always seem to panic when my Hydrant is take, same with my fruit... i have no idea what to do... what should i do against her?

 

[Froggy]

I also have a scrubby question. I've heard a lot of people mention using keys to beat other projectiles. This ia habit I've kinda grown out of unless I have a hydrant out in front of me because playing against Links I know his projectiles(especially his arrow) will nullify the key hitbox. I'm quite sure I've seen other projectiles do this as well. Is there a reason some projectiles nullify Key while others do not?

 

[Sinji]

There's something I always wanted to try out. Since Gravitational Pull can only take two Items, I wanted to see if I can throw the galaxion into the hydrant then side b into her since she can only take the hydrant and the galaxion.

 

[PEPESPAIN]

What about Hydrant + side B, and then throw a key?

 

[CBO0tz]

Hey guys, I played Pac-Man a while back and played surprisingly well with him.. I'm a little surprised about it, as he helped me take out a player I usually have the toughest time with..

So my question is how do you usually deal with the Yoshi and Shulk MUs?

 

[Splebel]

Hey guys, I played Pac-Man a while back and played surprisingly well with him.. I'm a little surprised about it, as he helped me take out a player I usually have the toughest time with..

So my question is how do you usually deal with the Yoshi and Shulk MUs?

I fought a guy yesterday who used those two and I was going to ask about Shulk. Yoshi I find is easier if you go aggressive. He can't egg toss if you chase him down and he loses his momentum and has trouble getting it back.

For Shulk I don't know what to do. I can't throw fruit because he can just nair it away. I can't launch a hydrant because he can nair it away. I can't approach because nair outranges me. I have trouble with his nair.

 

[verbatim]

don't approach, react. If he doesn't rush you down just go get a key every time, when/if he gets in your face use your superior out of shield options. Pacman plays the game of stage control in most matches but this is honestly one where you can just camp him out.

 

[Splebel]

don't approach, react. If he doesn't rush you down just go get a key every time, when/if he gets in your face use your superior out of shield options. Pacman plays the game of stage control in most matches but this is honestly one where you can just camp him out.

Is this for Shulk or Yoshi?

 

[verbatim]

Shulk, all his moves have really bad endlag that you can punish (especially with fruits) and he really can't do much to you so long as you make sure that you are reacting to him, not vice versa. Just keep in mind that walk off fair is a really good edgeguarding tool he can use against you (recover low) and don't try to challenge/spotdodge his smash attacks (they have a weirdly long timing, kind of like how you can't spotdodge Pacman's grab).

 

[Splebel]

Shulk, all his moves have really bad endlag that you can punish (especially with fruits) and he really can't do much to you so long as you make sure that you are reacting to him, not vice versa. Just keep in mind that walk off fair is a really good edgeguarding tool he can use against you (recover low) and don't try to challenge/spotdodge his smash attacks (they have a weirdly long timing, kind of like how you can't spotdodge Pacman's grab).

Well first off, you can spotdodge Pac-Man's grab. But his nair doesn't seem to have any endlag on it. Couldn't he go from nair to any attack?

 

[Nu~]

Well first off, you can spotdodge Pac-Man's grab. But his nair doesn't seem to have any endlag on it. Couldn't he go from nair to any attack?

His fastest attack is frame 5(lol), his jab, which can't beat out fruit.

 

[Splebel]

His fastest attack is frame 5(lol), his jab, which can't beat out fruit.

True, but if I'm reading the frame data right. Throwing fruit is a 12 frame attack and will lose to jab at close range.

 

[Nu~]

True, but if I'm reading the frame data right. Throwing fruit is a 12 frame attack and will lose to jab at close range.

But humans can't react to that. Humans have a 16 frame reaction time at best

If everyone could see fruit coming that quickly, everyone could beat fruit with jab. Item tossers would be obsolete.

 

[fromundaman]

I think you misunderstand each other.

Nair>Jab is Shulk's safest option without MAC, and you definitely cannot throw a fruit in between the two. You used to be able to trampoline OoS to beat the jabs, though IDK if it's still valid post-patch. If it isn't, his jabs have really bad lag that you can punish and his jab cancel is super bad.

But yeah, definitely a MU you can camp him out, although when you do get a hit, get as much damage as you can off of it; Shulk also has no good "Get off me" tools nor particularly good OoS options. He really ONLY works at mid range. Take him out of that range and you have the advantage.


As for gimping him, another fun way to do it is to just sit a hydrant next to the ledge. When he hits it with UpB, it will keep him there longer since he hit something, which allows for the hydrant water to just push him away. It doesn't always happen, but it is a good tool. Set that up in conjunction with some offstage play and he will have a hell of a time recovering.

 

[BoxedOccaBerrys]

Does pac-man have any locking moves? since i feel that pac-man could have good combos with it...

also i found that its very funny to push a little mac off the stage and footstool them after they get pushed by the hydrant, its hilarious ive only done it once and it WAS SO WORTH

 

[Aaron1997]

Does pac-man have any locking moves? since i feel that pac-man could have good combos with it...

Down throw into Fair at mid % on some characters will jab lock people if they don't tech. You can do Fair Fair + any smash or fruit

 

[dragontamer]

But humans can't react to that. Humans have a 16 frame reaction time at best

Any Tekken fan who has to deal with 1-throw Break vs 3-throw brake vs 1+2 throw-brake at 12f and 14f would disagree very strongly at that claim. Gold Burst baiting from Blazblue / Guilty Gear is closer to 12f as well, and tournament-level opponents are very good at that.

Nah man, tournament player reaction times are definitely closer to 12f, maybe even faster.

If everyone could see fruit coming that quickly, everyone could beat fruit with jab. Item tossers would be obsolete.

I've played some pretty high level players though who can consistently catch fruit. You basically never throw fruit at them at neutral, because they catch it extremely consistently.

You wait until they're pushing buttons. THEN you throw fruit. But don't throw fruit during neutral.

 

[Splebel]

I think you misunderstand each other.

Nair>Jab is Shulk's safest option without MAC, and you definitely cannot throw a fruit in between the two. You used to be able to trampoline OoS to beat the jabs, though IDK if it's still valid post-patch. If it isn't, his jabs have really bad lag that you can punish and his jab cancel is super bad.

But yeah, definitely a MU you can camp him out, although when you do get a hit, get as much damage as you can off of it; Shulk also has no good "Get off me" tools nor particularly good OoS options. He really ONLY works at mid range. Take him out of that range and you have the advantage.


As for gimping him, another fun way to do it is to just sit a hydrant next to the ledge. When he hits it with UpB, it will keep him there longer since he hit something, which allows for the hydrant water to just push him away. It doesn't always happen, but it is a good tool. Set that up in conjunction with some offstage play and he will have a hell of a time recovering.

Yeah that was what I meant. Thank you.

 

[Nu~]

Any Tekken fan who has to deal with 1-throw Break vs 3-throw brake vs 1+2 throw-brake at 12f and 14f would disagree very strongly at that claim. Gold Burst baiting from Blazblue / Guilty Gear is closer to 12f as well, and tournament-level opponents are very good at that.

Nah man, tournament player reaction times are definitely closer to 12f, maybe even faster.



I've played some pretty high level players though who can consistently catch fruit. You basically never throw fruit at them at neutral, because they catch it extremely consistently.

You wait until they're pushing buttons. THEN you throw fruit. But don't throw fruit during neutral.

Yeah, when nothing is going on. When in the heat of battle, it is incredibly hard to react to 12 frames. Look at ZSS. Who consistently spot dodges her grab on reaction?

And I know what you mean with the fruit. That's why we don't throw fruit at idle opponents.
Yes, you can still throw fruit in nuetral. Neutral doesn't have to mean both players are standing completely still, waiting for the next move.

 

[fromundaman]

Yeah, when nothing is going on. When in the heat of battle, it is incredibly hard to react to 12 frames. Look at ZSS. Who consistently spot dodges her grab on reaction?

And I know what you mean with the fruit. That's why we don't throw fruit at idle opponents.
Yes, you can still throw fruit in nuetral. Neutral doesn't have to mean both players are standing completely still, waiting for the next move.

To be fair, in this specific game it's harder to react to 12-14 frame moves because startup animations are more subtle and a lot of them look alike. In a traditional 2-D fighter I can react to a roughly 12-13 frame move if it's startup is unique enough, but in this game I'm closer to 15-16 frames just because of that.

I do agree that we can throw fruit in neutral, even against good opponents, but you definitely need to be mixing up your fruit tosses if you don't want to get it stolen, or throw the fruit with the intention of having it stolen then punish them hard with Usmash or something when they do.

 

[verbatim]

just going to point out that individual reaction time has ZERO BEARING on competitive ability and that the average reaction time of champion competitors in their respective fields is undistinguishable from the global average.

The benchmark for being able to "react" to something is the same for every smash player. The difference is in experience. Those with the most experience and practice in the competitive smash brothers environment aren't developing superhuman reaction times, they're making better use of the information that they process in their indistinguishably normal reaction times. No one reacts to an ideal Sheik 50/50 or a grab out of shield, they commit to actions based on their understanding of the composition of the match or matches up to that point and what they think their opponent is most likely to do, noting tells or patterns and making predictions based on them.

I'm not going to try and quantify the exact benchmark of where I can and can't react to something, because in reality a human that knows "I need to block here" can't distinguish between actually seeing the move coming and "knowing" that the move is coming.

 

[Splebel]

Anyone have any good tips on Robin? I honestly don't know how to approach this one. I've been trying an aggressive approach but Robin seems to out-space Pac-Man. Robin's Levin Sword beats every projectile Pac-Man throws also. I tried going defensive also and I fared better but Robin can easily overwhelm you if you aren't careful.

 

[verbatim]

Don't approach, literally don't approach. If Robin wants to play the charge game your projectiles are better than his at dealing damage AND at killing AND are significantly harder to avoid. You do have to watch out for his powerful aerials and combo's but the truth of the matter is that so long as you don't get careless you can negate any projectile he has by jumping and dropping stuff on him.

Also if you're feeling cheeky hydrant water WILL kill him if he doesn't sweet spot the ledge.