Data PacMan's M & Ms (Metagame and Match-Up) Discussion Thread

[Nu~]

I played this Olimar player at Nebulous Prime 1. The match up is completely in our favor (Especially a olimar that likes to camp). A campy Olimar allows us to charge whatever fruit we need in neutral. The trampoline stops Olimar from dashing away and creating space and stops him from trying to grab us. Olimars like to short hop throw pikmin if our hydrant is in the way. We can react to this and short hop throw key. Galaxion Z drops plus the hydrant will give the Olimar player a lot of trouble spacing himself, gives us more stage control and a possible opening for a huge combo. Hydrant and our aerials beats him off stage. Uturn side b to the ledge can kill him early (especially with rage) if he's offstage trying to recover.

I'm glad someone else believes this.

You can also mess up his neutral out the gate by placing a trampoline under his spawn plate. He won't have invincibility upon reaching the ground so he'll struggle to get pikmin without getting rekt beforehand.

 

[fromundaman]

Yeah IDK this MU at all. The only Roy players I've played have been rather weak and I approached the MU the same way I do Marth and Lucina: Measured disrespect. Once I'm in I make sure to stay in and if I'm out I make sure to keep him out.

 

[revengeska]

So I know I've been away/inactive for some time, I've been exploring other characters and haven't been on Smash boards much in general. But I've been playing in quite a few tournaments, and thought I would throw in some of my impressions for the past few months:

Sheik: I used to agree with Pacman9 in saying that this matchup was even or slightly better for us. Then I played Sinnyboo242 in a tournament set, one of the top 3 players in MN and a Sheik main. He never played a good Pac-Man and thus didn't know the matchup, thus in spite of that he played Sheik so fast that often I was cornered into few options and would get destroyed. I've played other Sheiks and won, even against very solid players, but they simply don't have fast Sheiks like this. I now understand why Abadango calls the matchup impossible. Probably 70:30 in Sheik's favor at least at higher levels. I'll continue to play Pac-Man in this matchup vs less formidable players, but I plan on developing a counterpick strategy here. The tournament set in question was recorded, I'll aim on posting it within the next few days.

Charizard: A good friend of mine mains a very good Charizard, so I have extensive matchup knowledge here. Charizard just seems to have tools to respond to everything Pac-Man tries to do here. The neutral b will stop early fruit and is a great spacing tool as Pac-Man doesn't have the ground speed/range to make reads to prevent it. Charging fruit is extremely dangerous because at a certain range Charizard's side b can't be shielded fast enough out of it. Charizard also has multiple quick ways to launch the hydrant that go at different angles, making that very risky as well. Perhaps you could get away with a hardcore camping game but it's an extremely difficult matchup, I'd say at least 60:40 in Charizard's favor, if not worse. I played another Charizard with Pac in tournament, and got 2 stocked(3 stock match) despite having extensive matchup experience. I counterpicked with Fox and promptly 3 stocked him. I definitely use Fox as the counterpick here.

Rosalina & Luma: Abadango and Dabuz have both stated that this is 55:45-60:40 in Rosa's favor, and after getting some more experience with it, that seems dead on. I guess that would make Pac-Man one of Rosa's worst matchups. I played friendlies with Sinnyboo242 where he played Rosa and I used On-fire hydrant custom. It was clear he didn't play Rosa, but it was funny hearing him say "omg Pac-Man is like a hard Rosa counter". I won't rehash everything that's been said on these boards about the Rosa matchup here, but at least it's not as scary as it used to be.

Robin: Blueprint to defeating Pac-Man in the matchup: charge Thoron, Arc-fire/run away, use Thoron. Rinse and repeat, punishing unsafe options with aerials and smashes. I've found Robin's defensive options to be so good that it's actually convinced me to pick up Sheik as a pocket character. I've beaten worse players who used Robin but even that's more work than it should be. I'm going to put a greater focus into the matchup to see if I can make head way into improving Pac's odds, but it's looking like a 60:40 for Robin type matchup right now. One thing to note is that Thoron covers landings really well and will launch the hydrant. My work in the matchup will probably focus on using the hydrant sparingly and seeing what options Pac-Man might have to bait and punish(he has to approach). Don't try to grab because if you whiff, you're probably dead starting at 50%-70%. Robin has a fantastic roll which makes a grab attempt especially risky. Arc-fire and Robin's disjointed jab cover a large area right in front of him, so an approach might need a fruit like a galaxian. I'm not sure how you even approach otherwise. I've played it a lot and I'll try to figure it out, but it's looking pretty dismal.

Pikachu: We have a good Pikachu main here that I've played a bit, and I didn't want to believe it but I have to echo sentiments that it's probably not in our favor. Quick attack gets in and Pac becomes combo meat. With customs it's worse. I have less experience in this matchup and for now I'm going to temper any negative outlook being I do think Pac might have some tools here and Abadango-ESAM at EVO seems to confirm that. I'll get a bit more experience before I guess a ratio on this one.

Marth/Lucina/Roy: The common theme with these characters is that they will beat Pac in range and dropping a hydrant is very risky as it can get launched quickly. Also, like Robin, if you whiff a grab expect to die starting at 50%. Also watch your shielding habits as a shieldbreaker will have the same result. You're probably not winning footsies due to having less range, a dismal grab, and inferior ground movement, so your best option is probably to camp hardcore and force predictable approaches. If you fall behind and are forced to approach you're done. I ended up losing a Pac vs Lucina tournament set in 3 games because game 3 I fell behind, was forced to approach and simply didn't have any good options. With that being said, fruits can do an incredible amount of work and in reality these matchups are probably about 50:50. You just very much have to be on your toes.

Yoshi: Earlier in Smash 4's metagame, I had a very hard time with Yoshi. Even on these boards it's been traditional wisdom that Yoshi was one of our worst matchups. However, after playing several different Yoshis, including tournament sets, I have to change my tune. Perhaps it's due to matchup inexperience on the part of my opponents, but I've been winning this pretty consistently, including a 2-0 tournament win against a player earning an honorable mention on the PR. I think the success is due to Pac actually having punish options(unlike vs many other characters) on Yoshi's approaches. Don't attempt to challenge Yoshi directly because your moves will lose. Use lots of early fruits(like orange, apple, etc), dash attack, jab, etc to punish Yoshi's whiffs. Grab can also actually be used some as a whiff isn't punished as hard by Yoshi and by the nature of Yoshi's movement you can make better reads(slower roll, approach options, etc). You can also win the camping game, although eggs are annoying and to be respected. I'm tempted to even move this into Pac-Man's favor at something like 55:45, but I'm curious about other's experiences.

Villager: My roommate mains Villager, so I have the benefit of a lot of matchup experience. This can be hectic and fun, but also a little frustrating. He's got faster projectiles so it allows him to camp a little better, but Pac's projectiles are probably more versatile and overall threatening. It's a very complex matchup due to all the projectiles and CQC intricacies, but the general feel of it seems to be about 50:50, or maybe 55:45 in Villager's favor. This is a matchup I could see developing and evolving over years.

Kirby: We are the land of the Kirby, with two Kirby mains in the top 5 on the Minnesota PR. Having played both in tournament sets as well as others, I can confidently state 60:40 in favor of Pac. Two things stick out: 1. Do NOT let him take bonus fruit, since a Kirby with bonus fruit is a scary Kirby, and 2. Be mindful of dair combos on the ground. Similarly, don't get grabbed. You may be better off avoiding neutral footsies altogether. You may not necessarily have a disadvantage vs Kirby in the neutral, but I guarantee that the upsides of winning it are much greater for Kirby than for Pac-Man. Play keep-away, utilize hydrant and lots of fruits, and look for openings to get your shots in the air.

There's some other matchups I've experienced that I'll have a more confident opinion on after I've fleshed it out a little more, but those were some thoughts fresh in my head that might give some people a direction on approaching matchups. Minnesota has a unique scene of characters, so I get interesting matchups sometimes.

 

[Splebel]

I also would add to that Kirby matchup to recover high if you can because Kirby can easily use stone to stage spike / Do massive damage on both the PP and especially the trampoline.

 

[shrooby]

Jello, we're discussing the Pac MU in the Dedede forum.

http://smashboards.com/threads/read...currently-discussing-pac-man-8-31-9-4.395045/

Would appreciate input from your guys' side~

 

[Nu~]

I'm going to do something risky.
Giving my opinions on Pac's matchup spread!! Maybe this will help spark discussion and healthy debate to help us understand matchups better.

Now you can all see how crazy I am.


+2(big advantage)


+1(advantage)


0(even)


-1(disadvantage)



Characters I have no clue about



I'm in a weird spot with sheik. I feel that she will potentially become -1 for us, but as of now it's still pretty difficult. However, Pac-Men such as Abadango have shown us that the matchup isn't nearly as bad as it first may seem.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

I'd move Greninja to even, New Shuriken are real.
In theory you could have a Tramp out at the right spot all the time, but with Greninja's speed that won't always happen.

(New Shuriken are post-patch Shuriken that stun you enough for strong follow-ups, ala Luigi's Fireball)

ZSS could move down to disadvantage for the same reason, Tramp can't always prevent Dash Attacks from happening.

 

[fromundaman]

Huh... I disagree with a lot of this. Too tired to go into more detail right now, but yeah, I am not nearly as optimistic as you. A lot of those MUs lean more toward even than + IMO.

 

[Nu~]

I had a feeling this would happen. People wanting to move characters to even. Good!

I was iffy about many characters in advantage myself, but I some I ft were leaning more towards favorable.
In reality though, a lot of them are closer to 0 then +1.


Edit:
I'm just gonna post my new one now since I more awake.


+2(big advantage)


+1(advantage)


0(even)


-1(disadvantage)



Characters I have no clue about



@ WeirdChillFever
I agree with greninja, but I'm still I still believe that ZSS is no worse than even. Hydrant and trampoline mess with her weak neutral too much for her to be a big problem, we make it harder for her to grab and get the reward she needs, and we can avoid juggles with hydrant.

However, her advantage state is still stupid and her disadvantage state is near-non existent. Her speed also makes it harder to fully lame her out.

 

[revengeska]

Huh... I disagree with a lot of this. Too tired to go into more detail right now, but yeah, I am not nearly as optimistic as you. A lot of those MUs lean more toward even than + IMO.

You've been around these boards long enough to know that Pacman9 makes optimists look gloomy and hopeless lol.

Realistically, a lot of those advantage characters should be moved to even and disadvantage. Nothing personal, but I'm far more likely to believe matchup spreads from accomplished tournament players and players who post videos of their gameplay here as evidence of matchup superiority.

 

[Nu~]

You guys are missing the point of the list.

It was supposed to be a board project in which we all give our input and explain why we feel characters should move down or up.

@ revengeska
And I'm still highly skeptical of you believing that charizard of all characters beats us

 

[Zage]

I posted this over on Anther's Ladder, just my two cents.

I'm fairly certain the Pikachu MU is in his favor, -2 may be a bit too much though. Wario, Shiek and Lucario are definitely our worse match up imo.

If you don't KO Lucario early, or you lose the first stock ,its over. You straight up are not beating any Lucario worth their salt as Pac-Man as long as tournies run 2 stock.

I'm really undecided on the Olimar MU, I really reallllllly want to say its +2 our favor, but I don't have enough offline experience against one to form a solid opinion.

@ Zage
@ BSP
@ fromundaman
Do you guys have any insight on the Roy matchup?

I don't have much experience with the MU. Every Roy I've played I pretty much had zero trouble against, but I had the opportunity of playing against NEO's Roy at Smashcon, who actually forced me to respect him and all his options. Roy doesn't have much trouble approaching surprisingly. Sloppy hydrant use will get you blown up, and the trampoline is key.

 

[ToonKake]

Finally found a Pacman Matchup Thread

 

[Nu~]

I'm still not convinced that our kill power is that bad when you take bell setups into account.

I want to know why while we all complain about kill problems, abadango and Dee are killing opponents at 110% or lower with no problems.

 

[revengeska]

I tend to agree somewhat about kill issues being overblown. I do however have to recognize that many times characters can sit in shield at high percentage, knowing that your grab option is horrible and very risky. It's not like they have to worry about trampoline killing.

@ Nu~ We can't just assume Pac beats a character because he's low tier. I have a good amount of experience in the matchup and have explained my reasoning. It's not like saying "oh but he's Charizard" invalidates that.

 

[Nu~]

I tend to agree somewhat about kill issues being overblown. I do however have to recognize that many times characters can sit in shield at high percentage, knowing that your grab option is horrible and very risky. It's not like they have to worry about trampoline killing.

@ Nu~ We can't just assume Pac beats a character because he's low tier. I have a good amount of experience in the matchup and have explained my reasoning. It's not like saying "oh but he's Charizard" invalidates that.

The problem isn't that I believe we beat him just because he is low tier, the problem is I don't agree with your reasoning.

Flamethrower isn't nearly enough for him to ignore our fruit and flare blitz shouldn't be threatening you at any distance outside of a hard read. Especially since his approach becomes even worse with a trampoline out.

 

[Phampy]

I'm really undecided on the Olimar MU, I really reallllllly want to say its +2 our favor, but I don't have enough offline experience against one to form a solid opinion.

I've only played against one Olimar and I don't know if it's cause he's that much a better player than me (he used to be really fairly high ranked on the SoCal PR before he took a break), I don't know the Olimar MU, or if Pacman is just at a disadvantage against him. So I don't have that much experience against Olimar as well but he was one of the only characters I couldn't figure out what to do against. I've lost to some other characters at times and never have I felt that I was at a huge disadvantage even if I lost fairly convincingly.

The thing with Olimar that I've seen is that he can tack on damage fairly quickly and fairly safely which is part of Pacman's disadvantage. If you don't establish a lead early and force the opponent to come in and deal with your traps and projectiles, it's an uphill battle. And even when you do get a lead, Olimar can still stay back and toss Pikmin to rack up damage. In any case, I probably need to play the MU more and try to figure it out as well.

 

[revengeska]

The problem isn't that I believe we beat him just because he is low tier, the problem is I don't agree with your reasoning.

Flamethrower isn't nearly enough for him to ignore our fruit and flare blitz shouldn't be threatening you at any distance outside of a hard read. Especially since his approach becomes even worse with a trampoline out.

Flare Blitz can often hit you before you shield if you're charging fruit, it comes out deceptively quick. He can also approach you with flamethrower which will immediately make you drop your fruit, not to mention that when used in edgeguarding it's very hard to sweet spot the ledge when you angle it down. He has good options for launching the hydrant, including a usmash that will launch the hydrant up at an angle immediately, so you have to be extremely careful when dropping it. He just has a ton of tools against Pac-Man. You probably won't understand until you play against a Charizard at a high level.

 

[Nu~]

I posted this over on Anther's Ladder, just my two cents.

I'm fairly certain the Pikachu MU is in his favor, -2 may be a bit too much though. Wario, Shiek and Lucario are definitely our worse match up imo.

If you don't KO Lucario early, or you lose the first stock ,its over. You straight up are not beating any Lucario worth their salt as Pac-Man as long as tournies run 2 stock.

I'm really undecided on the Olimar MU, I really reallllllly want to say its +2 our favor, but I don't have enough offline experience against one to form a solid opinion.



I don't have much experience with the MU. Every Roy I've played I pretty much had zero trouble against, but I had the opportunity of playing against NEO's Roy at Smashcon, who actually forced me to respect him and all his options. Roy doesn't have much trouble approaching surprisingly. Sloppy hydrant use will get you blown up, and the trampoline is key.

Firstly, how did you make that list and where can I find the template lol

Secondly, I'm unsure about those pika and lucario matchups. Abadango and Dee alike have shown us that bell set ups are deadly and neither of them struggle in the killing department, so lucario shouldn't be much of a problem.

Also, both Abadango and Dee have shown that pikachu's ability to weave through our traps isn't as great as first hypothesized. QA can be beaten out on reaction with Nair and pikachu's approach options from the air still aren't the very best.
Sheik may also be only a -1 with how Abadango abused hydrants against her...

Im also curious as to why you think wario wins that much. He can eat fruit, yes, but can he handle Fair hydrant approaches/walls with bite as well? Hydrants in combination with fruit seems a little too much for bite to deal with alone. We outrange him, knock him off of his zone breaking bike with even the weakes fruits, deal more damage overall, and have consistent ways to wall him out as long as we don't try to just throw fruit without following up behind it. That's asking for it to be eaten.

 

[Zage]

Secondly, I'm unsure about those pika and lucario matchups. Abadango and Dee alike have shown us that bell set ups are deadly and neither of them struggle in the killing department, so lucario shouldn't be much of a problem.

The bell is really useful for sealing KOs but it isn't the be-all end-all answer lol. Characters who have trouble KOing just naturally struggle against Lucario, but there is no way possible you're going to consistently kill a non-CPU Lucario before Rage/Aura start kicking in.

Im also curious as to why you think wario wins that much. He can eat fruit, yes, but can he handle Fair hydrant approaches/walls with bite as well? Hydrants in combination with fruit seems a little too much for bite to deal with alone. We outrange him, knock him off of his zone breaking bike with even the weakes fruits, deal more damage overall, and have consistent ways to wall him out as long as we don't try to just throw fruit without following up behind it. That's asking for it to be eaten.

Every single fruit can be eaten on reaction, even the Key. The Hydrant can also be eaten out of the air, while it's stationary, and obv while its being launched. The Waft recharge is a really big deal. Especially in tournaments that run two stock. Having access to multiple full charges of a move that kills at absurdly low percents is just too good. The 1% heal is just the icing on the cake.

The trampoline also works against you in this MU as well unless you have a distinct lead. Wario is fully capable on just waiting on the other side and eating whatever you throw out since you have to get around your own trampoline to cover the fruit/hydrant. IIRC he has the 4th highest air speed (and fastest air acceleration I think?). Trampolines OOS is a free punish for him until high percents


Our fruit destroy the Bike yeah, I've seen it work the first few times, but for Warios who play the MU optimally, I never see it used against Pac-man. It boils down to a war of attrition and I just don't see Pac-man winning. There just isn't any reason for Wario to approach when he can get free Wafts/Heals and all his aerials out-range ours.

Edit: There should be a MU chart thread over at the competitive discussion boards

 

[Nu~]

Why are you playing the long range game with wario in the first place?

If you aren't playing him in mid range with the intent on capitalizing on fruit hit confirms and not giving him room to freely eat everything, then you are playing the matchup wrong. We deal with reflectors and GP the same way. Wario isn't all that different.

It is also highly untrue that his aerials outrange ours when Bair alone has more range than every aerial he has. Fair launched hydrants are still a free approach against wario because he won't be able to eat the hydrant without taking a hit from us running right behind it.

This is a matchup you want to play an aggressive mid range game and we have all the tools to do it since our CQC is better than his overall, especially when you add item tossed fruit into the equation.

He has the mobility advantage (in the air only...) but we have all the range advantage and better frame data overall.

 

[Zage]

F-air launched hydrants are a nice mix-up, but it isn't an absolute answers, which pac-man doesn't have many of besides the trampoline in some match ups. It'll probably catch your opponent off guard once, maybe twice, but human players playing at a high level aren't just going to sit there and fall for the same approach every time. It just isn't going to happen. There's virtually nothing stopping Wario from just moving away and resetting the situation. He has everything to gain (Waft) and nothing to lose.

If your whole argument for beating Wario, of all characters, in a aerial fight rests on a 9 frame B-air, which admittedly has slightly above average range, then I don't even know how to respond lol.

 

[Nu~]

If your whole argument for beating Wario, of all characters, in a aerial fight rests on a 9 frame B-air, which admittedly has slightly above average range, then I don't even know how to respond lol.

You misunderstood my argument.

My argument was about keeping the fight in midrange. The part about our Bair having more range was only in direct reply to your last hyperbolic comment about how wario supposedly outranges us completely. An aerial battle of course has more elements to it than just using Bair, but when it comes to CQC overall, I was stating how we are superior on the ground, where wario probably won't be trying to fight us admittably, and can actually keep up with (not beat him outright) in the air if he insists on just poking us with his weak, short ranged aerials to keep us out

 

[revengeska]

Just an FYI, I asked Abadango in his channel what he now thinks of the Sheik matchup, he says he thinks it's 55-45.

 

[fromundaman]

Meh guess I'll post one too even though I don't know how confident I am in all of these (Haven't gotten as much of a chance to travel after this last patch as I would have liked as life is currently kicking my ass. That said I still play in a few locals a week and practice regularly, so it's not like I'm completely out of the loop, just not as up to date on some MUs as I'd like).

There's also certain MUs, like Ness and Luigi, that I feel like I should be winning yet struggle with, whereas certain others, like Mario, Rosa and Fox, I seem to do really well in despite the fact I feel like Pac probably doesn't win those MUs.

Advantage:



Small Advantage:



Neutral:



Small Disadvantage:



Disadvantage:



Need more experience to say:



Notes:

-Now none of these MUs are hopeless or unwinnable. When I say small advantage one way or the other, I mean just that. The advantages are small (55-45 to 60-40) whereas advantage/disadvantage is more apparent (7-3). I don't think we have anything as bad as 8-2 or 9-1 in either direction.

Also a few of these may be a bit opinionated. For example, I am really not sure if the MU is in Luigi's favor, but when I play it I always feel like a patient Luigi who knows how the character works can hurt Pacman a lot. Then again though, this opinion was founded from playing a very good Luigi every week in Finals of our weeklies who has by now a good understanding of how I play.

____

-Haven't seen much of Marth or Lucina post patch, but it doesn't seem like their general game plan changed much. They win in their disjoint sword range but lose at anything farther range and can't deal with getting rushed down too well either since their only real option is UpB. This makes it that they have to approach, but also can't let you get in, making them work so much harder to maintain spacing than we have to, especially when we have tools to disrupt their already difficult neutral.

___

-I demolished the only high level charizard I played in tournament without knowing anything about the MU. That said, it was before the last patch, so I did abuse the fact that he had no real way around shield.
That said, he has to approach, and his approaches aren't the greatest. People who have to approach but don't have great approach options tend to struggle against us due to the myriad of tools that we have to disrupt the neutral game.

His edgeguard game is similar to Bowser's as well except not quite as good (Better fire, but less effective at covering ledge options) and well, we don't really care too much about fire at the ledge if we time SideBs correctly. His spike is also not really an issue if you place trampoline when you see him go for it.

"But Fromundaman, Flare Blitz can go past our trampoline and punish fruit charge!". No, no it can't. If you pay attention to what he does in an offline environment, you can react fast enough to the startup to shield on reaction, and if you block it, free punish. Depending on what fruit you have, it can even be a KO punish.

Honestly the only scary part of this character now are tipper Bairs and his grab game. Unfortunately, unlike other grab dependent characters, he has no way to frametrap you into your shield nor is he fast enough to just run up to you whenever he pleases as a mixup. Tipper Bair is scary just because that move has range, priority and kills hella early. Watch out for it.

IDK, play smart and I feel Charizard should still lose even post patch.

___

-I put Lucario twice because I am not entirely sure where to put him. He is a character who wrecks you if he takes the first stock, but has an uphill battle if you take the first stock. In a 3 stock game it's anyone's game though since he gets another chance to come back.

That said, his heavy weight hurts us a lot, as he WILL NOT die early. I thought that our ledge traps would murder him before playing Inter at Smash in Marseille and figured that MU would be super easy. Turns out I was wrong. He avoided the ledge after I got him with the 1st ledge trap and just recovered onstage, with a ****-ton of ending lag. Sure I would punish every time, but those punishes can't kill considering he would always make it about half stage distance away from me. When I waited near center stage, he would go for the ledge.
This meant that I had to cover the ledge and charge key for an optimal punish when he went onstage with his UpB.

This leads back to the weight issue... Inter survived key at 150%+ on starter stages, which means that not only are we NOT killing Lucario easily with our safe options, but it means we are actively helping him. We can be up all game and die from a single punish (This is how I lost that set).
Now to kill Lucario, it means we need to get either a good Nair/Bair near the ledge, both of which are not safe on shield, land a setup into bell (DA is not safe on shield), land a sideB (Not safe on shield), or land a smash (Not safe on shield unless ledge canceled with hydrant), or pull off some sort of gimmicky kill.
Basically, we have no RELIABLE way to kill Lucario safely BEFORE he gets to the point where a single error will cost a stock. Once he gets to aura+rage, a single anything will kill, and his SideB is a great punishing move, forcing you to play even more safe, which in terms means not killing early, which repeats the cycle.

That said, the reason why I'm not sure of where to put him is because IF we do get the first stock, it is not too difficult to time him out. This is the only way I can see us beating a good Lucario though unless they fall for gimmicks (Which admittedly we have a lot of) or we get some hard reads.

____

-I am also on the fence about Shiek. I need to mess with the MU more while trying to implement some strategies Abadango was using.

____

-I want to preface this by saying that Katakiri is a much better player than I, so the result of our matches is NOT what I am basing this off of. HOWEVER, he did show me during our series of games that MK has answers to pretty much every tool Pacman has, does not have to respect our ledge traps at all, has more mobility and priority than us, and can both rush us down or camp us effectively.
That said, if we can stay unpredictable with our traps, it can be tough for MK to get started, especially since we don't have too much lag for him to punish.
We were pretty much in agreement last time we played that the MU was in MK's favor.

____

-Ryu... Someone explain to me how we are supposed to play against him, because I can't seem to figure it out. He feels like Ganon in that you have to keep him out and he hurts a LOT when he gets in, except that unlike Ganon he doesn't in fact have lag on everything, mobility problems, trampoline doesn't really hurt him much and he has quite a few moves to negate both our traps and normals.
The fact that he seems to rack damage as fast or faster than we do without needing to set up, that we can't space him the way we would most characters and that he kills ridiculously early leaves me at a loss as to what to do against him. Sure we can try to zone him, and it works for a little bit, but our zoning is slow and if a single fruit is grabbed the tables turn. Plus once he gets in, which isn't too hard with his mobility, he easily outdoes the damage we did through zoning him.

IDK... someone explain to me how to play against him so that I'm not forced to pick secondaries, because right now I ALWAYS lose to Ryu. I mean ALWAYS. If the Ryu is even semi-competent my Pacman loses.




_______________

Tired of writing. Ask if you want more clarifications, please enlighten me where I may be wrong, or w/e.



EDIT:

I did fight some Warios in France btw, but I feel they didn't understand the MU well.

One thing I can say is that Wario cannot play his normal strategies against Pacman. We do punish all of his approaches, even the "safe" ones. That said, waft is a game changer and I could see a campy Wario giving us trouble simply by going to time, eating fruits, running away and occasionally trying to punish actions with Waft.

 

[Nu~]

Just an FYI, I asked Abadango in his channel what he now thinks of the Sheik matchup, he says he thinks it's 55-45.

In her favor right?

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Meh guess I'll post one too even though I don't know how confident I am in all of these (Haven't gotten as much of a chance to travel after this last patch as I would have liked as life is currently kicking my ***. That said I still play in a few locals a week and practice regularly, so it's not like I'm completely out of the loop, just not as up to date on some MUs as I'd like).

There's also certain MUs, like Ness and Luigi, that I feel like I should be winning yet struggle with, whereas certain others, like Mario, Rosa and Fox, I seem to do really well in despite the fact I feel like Pac probably doesn't win those MUs.

Advantage:



Small Advantage:



Neutral:



Small Disadvantage:



Disadvantage:



Need more experience to say:



Notes:

-Now none of these MUs are hopeless or unwinnable. When I say small advantage one way or the other, I mean just that. The advantages are small (55-45 to 60-40) whereas advantage/disadvantage is more apparent (7-3). I don't think we have anything as bad as 8-2 or 9-1 in either direction.

Also a few of these may be a bit opinionated. For example, I am really not sure if the MU is in Luigi's favor, but when I play it I always feel like a patient Luigi who knows how the character works can hurt Pacman a lot. Then again though, this opinion was founded from playing a very good Luigi every week in Finals of our weeklies who has by now a good understanding of how I play.

____

-Haven't seen much of Marth or Lucina post patch, but it doesn't seem like their general game plan changed much. They win in their disjoint sword range but lose at anything farther range and can't deal with getting rushed down too well either since their only real option is UpB. This makes it that they have to approach, but also can't let you get in, making them work so much harder to maintain spacing than we have to, especially when we have tools to disrupt their already difficult neutral.

___

-I demolished the only high level charizard I played in tournament without knowing anything about the MU. That said, it was before the last patch, so I did abuse the fact that he had no real way around shield.
That said, he has to approach, and his approaches aren't the greatest. People who have to approach but don't have great approach options tend to struggle against us due to the myriad of tools that we have to disrupt the neutral game.

His edgeguard game is similar to Bowser's as well except not quite as good (Better fire, but less effective at covering ledge options) and well, we don't really care too much about fire at the ledge if we time SideBs correctly. His spike is also not really an issue if you place trampoline when you see him go for it.

"But Fromundaman, Flare Blitz can go past our trampoline and punish fruit charge!". No, no it can't. If you pay attention to what he does in an offline environment, you can react fast enough to the startup to shield on reaction, and if you block it, free punish. Depending on what fruit you have, it can even be a KO punish.

Honestly the only scary part of this character now are tipper Bairs and his grab game. Unfortunately, unlike other grab dependent characters, he has no way to frametrap you into your shield nor is he fast enough to just run up to you whenever he pleases as a mixup. Tipper Bair is scary just because that move has range, priority and kills hella early. Watch out for it.

IDK, play smart and I feel Charizard should still lose even post patch.

___

-I put Lucario twice because I am not entirely sure where to put him. He is a character who wrecks you if he takes the first stock, but has an uphill battle if you take the first stock. In a 3 stock game it's anyone's game though since he gets another chance to come back.

That said, his heavy weight hurts us a lot, as he WILL NOT die early. I thought that our ledge traps would murder him before playing Inter at Smash in Marseille and figured that MU would be super easy. Turns out I was wrong. He avoided the ledge after I got him with the 1st ledge trap and just recovered onstage, with a ****-ton of ending lag. Sure I would punish every time, but those punishes can't kill considering he would always make it about half stage distance away from me. When I waited near center stage, he would go for the ledge.
This meant that I had to cover the ledge and charge key for an optimal punish when he went onstage with his UpB.

This leads back to the weight issue... Inter survived key at 150%+ on starter stages, which means that not only are we NOT killing Lucario easily with our safe options, but it means we are actively helping him. We can be up all game and die from a single punish (This is how I lost that set).
Now to kill Lucario, it means we need to get either a good Nair/Bair near the ledge, both of which are not safe on shield, land a setup into bell (DA is not safe on shield), land a sideB (Not safe on shield), or land a smash (Not safe on shield unless ledge canceled with hydrant), or pull off some sort of gimmicky kill.
Basically, we have no RELIABLE way to kill Lucario safely BEFORE he gets to the point where a single error will cost a stock. Once he gets to aura+rage, a single anything will kill, and his SideB is a great punishing move, forcing you to play even more safe, which in terms means not killing early, which repeats the cycle.

That said, the reason why I'm not sure of where to put him is because IF we do get the first stock, it is not too difficult to time him out. This is the only way I can see us beating a good Lucario though unless they fall for gimmicks (Which admittedly we have a lot of) or we get some hard reads.

____

-I am also on the fence about Shiek. I need to mess with the MU more while trying to implement some strategies Abadango was using.

____

-I want to preface this by saying that Katakiri is a much better player than I, so the result of our matches is NOT what I am basing this off of. HOWEVER, he did show me during our series of games that MK has answers to pretty much every tool Pacman has, does not have to respect our ledge traps at all, has more mobility and priority than us, and can both rush us down or camp us effectively.
That said, if we can stay unpredictable with our traps, it can be tough for MK to get started, especially since we don't have too much lag for him to punish.
We were pretty much in agreement last time we played that the MU was in MK's favor.

____

-Ryu... Someone explain to me how we are supposed to play against him, because I can't seem to figure it out. He feels like Ganon in that you have to keep him out and he hurts a LOT when he gets in, except that unlike Ganon he doesn't in fact have lag on everything, mobility problems, trampoline doesn't really hurt him much and he has quite a few moves to negate both our traps and normals.
The fact that he seems to rack damage as fast or faster than we do without needing to set up, that we can't space him the way we would most characters and that he kills ridiculously early leaves me at a loss as to what to do against him. Sure we can try to zone him, and it works for a little bit, but our zoning is slow and if a single fruit is grabbed the tables turn. Plus once he gets in, which isn't too hard with his mobility, he easily outdoes the damage we did through zoning him.

IDK... someone explain to me how to play against him so that I'm not forced to pick secondaries, because right now I ALWAYS lose to Ryu. I mean ALWAYS. If the Ryu is even semi-competent my Pacman loses.




_______________

Tired of writing. Ask if you want more clarifications, please enlighten me where I may be wrong, or w/e.



EDIT:

I did fight some Warios in France btw, but I feel they didn't understand the MU well.

One thing I can say is that Wario cannot play his normal strategies against Pacman. We do punish all of his approaches, even the "safe" ones. That said, waft is a game changer and I could see a campy Wario giving us trouble simply by going to time, eating fruits, running away and occasionally trying to punish actions with Waft.

Would you like me to bring and ask a Peach and Zelda players what they think?

 

[Nu~]

I have to ask, what is "reliable"?

Hydrant drop -> key kills reliably
Hydrant drop -> item tossed bell-> side B kills reliably
Fair -> bell/key kills reliably
DITCIT strawberry/cherry -> Bair near ledge/fsmash/usmash/ kills reliably (essentially our own banana kill setup)

All are safe when missed.

Even Bair hydrant-> bell toss-> re toss bell. Great way to fill the screen with killing hitboxes that eat opposing projectiles.
What are you all looking for? Mario usmashes? Ness back throw?
Not all of our kill options are unsafe and not all of them are "unreliable" unless you are trying to get all your kills via Beatfox methods.

Still don't think lucario is this ultra hard matchup you want to believe it is.

 

[revengeska]

In her favor right?

You would ask that, lol.

 

[Nu~]

You would ask that, lol.

But of course

 

[NewE]

Ok so I was in da lab and I juz training anyways I had a bell in hand and I threw it up grab roy and threw him up it cancelled but not like the one in one of abadongos vids instead it look like it could have meteor/spike but I was on stage which made roy do a long and far roll.So I need u guys to test it cuz it could be a new tech or bug.But be careful with timing tho if to slow it wont link with u throw and it well juz hav da damage.But also try do to do da bell cancel up throw.Even tho the up throw cancel bell is better cuz set up to anything. Reason I couldn't cuz I hav 3ds and its hard for me.with da circle pad and dont hav a capture card so when I do do it I cant record footage.Thanks

 

[makemesmellbad]

With all of my practice, I can never get u-throw into Bell. So instead, I used f-throw (hopefully that doesn't actually change anything in regards to results). Using f-throw into Bell almost always lead into the Bell's normal stun sending the opponent (in this case, Roy) backwards. Every now and then, I' get a forwards trajectory, but that's just human error in the experiment. I've never had an opponent get spiked by Bell, so if you could record this somehow so I can see your method, then I'll gladly keep testing this theory for you.
How hype would it be if we did have a consistent spike?

 

[BSP]

I'll post opinions later. For now, I can see us losing to time out Wario and Lucario being difficult. For the latter, we may have to adopt the strategy of "Get him to 100%, then exclusively go for bell setups -> smashes ", otherwise aura will wreck us.

Edit: none of our KO setups are reliable because they all lose to shield, and our primary method of beating shield does not KO nor lead to an edgeguard. If you really want to live vs. Pac-Man, keep shielding. Don't be an idiot and sit there forever, but he can't KO you, put you in an edgegaurding situation, or set up a 50/50 on you for shielding without taking an enormous risk that's punishable by KO moves. If he trampolines, you take 7% and are relieved of all pressure for the moment. Even if he does land a grab, Bthrow is the only real threat.

Our best bet for snagging KOs imo is having a bell ready and a tumbling hydrant going at the opponent at the same time. However, this too isn't infallible since running away gets you out of danger.

Reliable to me is easy to pull off even if the opponent sees it coming (Luigi Dthrow -> Cyclone), or consistently setting up 50/50s that end in death if the aggressor reads / chooses correctly (Sheik, ZSS, etc.). Outside of hard reads / easy punishes, most characters get KOs by edgeguarding to death or doing something that leads into 50/50s that end in death. Pac-Man doesn't have the latter and our edge guarding ledge traps aren't infallible unfortunately.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

@MJN Pilot, @Dark.Pch, @EOE, @Yaaay
Very sorry to disturb you, it seems the PAC mains may not know much about the Peach vs Pacman MU, any of you mind giving some knowledge?
I don't do this often and I swear it won't happen again if it bothers you to be tagged.

 

[Zylach]

I'm gonna give this a try as a Zelda main with no experience against Pacman. I read through a little bit of peoples' opinions here on Pacman's playstyle and I'll say that Zelda is a naturally shield-heavy character. She has some of the best OoS options in the game so I suspect Pacman would have trouble against that especially because all of his aerials extend his hurtbox giving us an opportunity to elevator OoS against him.

Zelda's reflector is also very helpful here since Pacman is so reliant on projectiles. I once killed a Pacman in FG by reflecting the water from his hydrant at him as he was recovering. That seems like a very situational use for it but I thought I'd share that. Reflecting his key and hydrant are the most beneficial uses for Nayru's Love.

Zelda generally outspaces Pacman and has disjoints to help her spacing game where he doesn't outside of his smashes so if Zelda gets behind his projectile wall (Seeing as she can reflect them and he has to charge them back up to use them again, it shouldn't be as difficult as other projectile heavy characters) then he ought to be outspaced by her.

It's very difficult for Pacman to gimp us as well because of our teleport recovery meaning every time Pacman throws that hydrant to cover a recovering opponent, it'll miss against Zelda unless Pacman is literally frame perfect. At the same time, it's tricky for Zelda to dair Pacman offstage because she'll just meteor smash him back into his trampoline. That is, of course, if she's gotten him to the point where he'd need to use trampoline as his side-B is usually enough to get him back.

I would say this MU is around even. Perhaps slightly in Zelda's favor. Not a lot of experience though. This is all based on reading up on Pacman and playing a few meager FG matches against them a while ago.

 

[Nu~]

I'll post opinions later. For now, I can see us losing to time out Wario and Lucario being difficult. For the latter, we may have to adopt the strategy of "Get him to 100%, then exclusively go for bell setups -> smashes ", otherwise aura will wreck us.

Edit: none of our KO setups are reliable because they all lose to shield, and our primary method of beating shield does not KO nor lead to an edgeguard. If you really want to live vs. Pac-Man, keep shielding. Don't be an idiot and sit there forever, but he can't KO you, put you in an edgegaurding situation, or set up a 50/50 on you for shielding without taking an enormous risk that's punishable by KO moves. If he trampolines, you take 7% and are relieved of all pressure for the moment. Even if he does land a grab, Bthrow is the only real threat.

Our best bet for snagging KOs imo is having a bell ready and a tumbling hydrant going at the opponent at the same time. However, this too isn't infallible since running away gets you out of danger.

Reliable to me is easy to pull off even if the opponent sees it coming (Luigi Dthrow -> Cyclone), or consistently setting up 50/50s that end in death if the aggressor reads / chooses correctly (Sheik, ZSS, etc.). Outside of hard reads / easy punishes, most characters get KOs by edgeguarding to death or doing something that leads into 50/50s that end in death. Pac-Man doesn't have the latter and our edge guarding ledge traps aren't infallible unfortunately.

We all need to get better at catching apples. This is when trampoline becomes a legitimate threat since we can pop them into a kill move starting at 120% on middleweights.

With a fruit in hand, we become a lot more offensive and deadly. An opponent can't safely shield all day without getting destroyed by a trampoline kill setup. If they do insist on sitting back, shielding everything we throw, and waiting for us to come to them, that's time to catch said fruit to set up a kill.

 

[Gunla]

Ok so I was in da lab and I juz training anyways I had a bell in hand and I threw it up grab roy and threw him up it cancelled but not like the one in one of abadongos vids instead it look like it could have meteor/spike but I was on stage which made roy do a long and far roll.So I need u guys to test it cuz it could be a new tech or bug.But be careful with timing tho if to slow it wont link with u throw and it well juz hav da damage.But also try do to do da bell cancel up throw.Even tho the up throw cancel bell is better cuz set up to anything. Reason I couldn't cuz I hav 3ds and its hard for me.with da circle pad and dont hav a capture card so when I do do it I cant record footage.Thanks

I have moved your thread regarding the Bell Meteor/Spike issue into the Pac-Man Metagame Thread; in the future, Pac-Man related questions regarding the Pac's meta or matchups should go here.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

like Miss @ Zylach I dont really have much to say about Zelda vs Pac either since the only ones I've played have been bad roll glory ones that let me reflect things or take their fruit away from them. I feel like a better Pac could frustrate Zelda if he got a lead because reflection aside she can't really camp Pac so she kinda has to close in to get a lead first or reflect very well to take a percent lead.

On stage Pac can still run away and dance around Zelda cause he us faster than her he just has to be aware if her big ol hitboxes and the fact that Zelda can get early kills cause she's got power.

as long as Pac isn't on the final jump for trampoline on recovery or using sideB obviously Zelda doesn't have free gimps on Pac but she can still attack him while he's out there to if anything push him further away and open up a better gimp chance.

I'm gonna say its even cause I dont feel like either party destroys the other and it comes more down to players and situations.

 

[BSP]

snip

Why do you think we lose to Kirby? He's another one of the characters that are too slow to punish a whiffed trampoline, making it a near 100% get out of jail free card (final cutter might hit us for 5% or something, oh well). When we force him off of the ground, our Bair, Uair, tilts, and smashes are great for contesting his jump-ins. How does he deal with us playing super defensive in general?

I've never really had trouble with Kirby, and with the galaxian setups I'm seeing Dee do, it'll probably be even easier since I can't see Kirby stopping us from getting it in hand consistently.

For Falcon, I feel that MU is even. It can feel difficult if the Falcon knows your fruit, runs through hydrants, ignores it once it's out, uses jab properly, and doesn't take huge risks unless it's worth it, but I feel like our combos on him + trampoline help to swing it back to even. If we ledge camp him with the trampoline and litter the stage with hydrant + trampoline whenever we can't be near a ledge, we shut down his grab game and he has to take decent risks to get to us. Our Uair is much like his and usually converts to 20%+ every time we tag him with it. He has to be mindful when he does jump-ins because our Bair and Uair can do a number on him. If he waits trampoline out, we can get galaxians in our hand and use Dee galaxian combos for big %.

That being said, Falcon is fast enough to keep pressure on us. He outboxes us solidly and his grab game is pretty oppressive, but we have methods of suppressing it and answering back. We have trouble KO'ing Falcon if we can't land bells, while he can KO us sub 100% with rage raptor boost...it's annoying, but I'd still put the MU near even.

@ fromundaman I've had the same KO'ing issues against Ike. Last time I fought a good one online, he would quick draw over my head as a mixup. I hit him with a Key at 150% and he lived. Then I proceeded to lose because I had given him full rage + he landed a few key hits. Key is so strong, yet so weak. I wish it scaled with rage...

Edit: man, why is Key so weak? I know it pierces and can be re-caught, but 15% really isn't that much for a 2+ second charge for a projectile that can be used against us and is easily out-prioritized. Why can't it have some bonus shield damage or something?

 

[NewE]

With all of my practice, I can never get u-throw into Bell. So instead, I used f-throw (hopefully that doesn't actually change anything in regards to results). Using f-throw into Bell almost always lead into the Bell's normal stun sending the opponent (in this case, Roy) backwards. Every now and then, I' get a forwards trajectory, but that's just human error in the experiment. I've never had an opponent get spiked by Bell, so if you could record this somehow so I can see your method, then I'll gladly keep testing this theory for you.
How hype would it be if we did have a consistent spike?

OK Thanks and idk why I forgot to mention that I had Roy at 100% and I wish I can get some footage but it wasn't consistent. I would get it at like 3/10 so it would be hard to get some one to record it till I get it right. Sorry.