Pac-Man Custom Moveset Discussion

[Rashid]

Nah man, 1132 is totally tubular. But yeah, 1131 doesn't seem all that gnarly to me. Meteor trampoline is cool, but not by itself. And I still don't think Power Pac-Jump isn't worth using.

 

[Firedemon0]

Nah man, 1132 is totally tubular. But yeah, 1131 doesn't seem all that gnarly to me. Meteor trampoline is cool, but not by itself. And I still don't think Power Pac-Jump isn't worth using.

Ahhh! Double negative. /s

But seriously, I think solves a pretty big issue of Pac-man's Trampoline recovery as well, it cannot be stolen from us. It works on shield, it is actually another kill move option. I fail to see how it should not be an available option. Have you run into issues using it? I know that it launches Pac-man pretty high, but you can still get to ledge pretty easily because of that.

 

[19_]

Personally I feel that Meteor trampoline by itself, 1131, could be replaced. While it has some usage as a meteor. It is a bit dangerous to land offstage similar to a footstool. It also combos best overall with freaky fruit. I am leaning more towards replacing 1132 as well. that would allow us to replace 2 of the top 6 customs.

1131 may be useful. I like to think the hydrant with meteor trampoline can lead do some interesting setups. The windbox can push your opponent into the trampoline that can lead to grounding ect.

 

[Firedemon0]

1131 may be useful. I like to think the hydrant with meteor trampoline can lead do some interesting setups. The windbox can push your opponent into the trampoline that can lead to grounding ect.

Not in practice, trampoline does not last long enough to be able to reliably setup that trap. If you plant it before hydrant, it will fade shortly after the first water jet passes over.

 

[BSP]

Can someone confirm whether we can side B the fire from On Fire Hydrant? I can't imagine why we wouldn't be able to, but confirmation would be nice.

With customs being likely at EVO, I'd highly recommend getting familiar with On Fire Hydrant, as the damaging flames + heal potential will command a LOT more respect than the default hydrant. I predict opponents tunnel visioning it, giving us an opportunity to punish them for knocking it away, or a heal if they don't rush us down.

 

[Firedemon0]

Can someone confirm whether we can side B the fire from On Fire Hydrant? I can't imagine why we wouldn't be able to, but confirmation would be nice.

With customs being likely at EVO, I'd highly recommend getting familiar with On Fire Hydrant, as the damaging flames + heal potential will command a LOT more respect than the default hydrant. I predict opponents tunnel visioning it, giving us an opportunity to punish them for knocking it away, or a heal if they don't rush us down.

It does not work unfortunately. It was one of the first things I tested when I unlocked them, guess I goofed and did not mention that previously.

 

[BSP]

It does not work unfortunately. It was one of the first things I tested when I unlocked them, guess I goofed and did not mention that previously.

They knew.....

Oh well, On Fire Hydrant will still demand more respect. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Rashid]

Ahhh! Double negative. /s

But seriously, I think solves a pretty big issue of Pac-man's Trampoline recovery as well, it cannot be stolen from us. It works on shield, it is actually another kill move option. I fail to see how it should not be an available option. Have you run into issues using it? I know that it launches Pac-man pretty high, but you can still get to ledge pretty easily because of that.

Oops. You're right, it was supposed to be a single negative.

My main issue with it is that it you can't easily kill with it. It's very easy to see it coming, and Pac-Man doesn't have the aerial mobility to keep up with possible air dodges. I've been messing with some fruit and I still can't figure out a good setup that leads to a kill. As for being an OoS option, I think meteor trampoline is better, since it'll be 1 bounce away from being red.

If someone could demonstrate actual gameplay highlighting PPJ's use, I'll change my mind.

 

[Firedemon0]

They knew.....

Oh well, On Fire Hydrant will still demand more respect.

It does, and doesn't. I think it is great for hydrant happy smashers. It also works against us though, as if we mess up breaking hydrant, we get fire to our face. When I was using it, I was actually hurting myself more then my opponents some games. It is a good spacing tool, but the movement bonus of default hydrant are way too appealing for me.

Dire hydrant is the most disappointing out of all the customs in my opinion (yes even more then enticing pellet). would of been amazing if it was a self detonating hydrant that blew up after 2-3 seconds, or when broken from friend or foe. Leading it to be an even stronger trap move. As it stands, its just an extra "jump" mid air.

 

[BSP]

It does, and doesn't. I think it is great for hydrant happy smashers. It also works against us though, as if we mess up breaking hydrant, we get fire to our face. When I was using it, I was actually hurting myself more then my opponents some games. It is a good spacing tool, but the movement bonus of default hydrant are way too appealing for me.

Dire hydrant is the most disappointing out of all the customs in my opinion (yes even more then enticing pellet). would of been amazing if it was a self detonating hydrant that blew up after 2-3 seconds, or when broken from friend or foe. Leading it to be an even stronger trap move. As it stands, its just an extra "jump" mid air.

Ok, good things to keep in mind. Do we already have a thread going over the pros and cons of each custom? We should get that going if not.

While you're here, did you test the healing % for both the enticing pellet and the distance PP? I'd expect them to be the same, but then we can't side B On Fire Hydrants flames so who knows.

 

[Firedemon0]

I have not, but I can do that later easily enough. I know that a Freaky Fruit guide was made awhile back.

 

[Nu~]

Okay...enticing power pellet is awesome.
It actually really screws up recoveries and kills so damn early. If we catch an opponent in hitstun with a lazy fruit (especially galaxian) that's a free kill at 80% or even lower. Recoveries like Ike, sonic, mega man, and fox get rekt because they get pulled in if you use it beside them.
I really think this move will become viable in the meta. Especially with lazy fruit.

3321
This is a deadly control set that fixes our killing problem and demands tons of space.
Lazy fruit travels so slowly, that we get instant z drop access with every fruit. This allows us to use hydrant gushed fruit to cover our approach. We drop the fruit on the hydrant, go in for a big damage attack, and avoid the punish because the fruit is now flying behind us, ready to cover our end lag.
Galaxian traps opponents for the mighty enticing power pellet, can break shields, block projectiles, and is the perfect ledge guard. Every other fruit can be used as a shield as you go in while they bounce in front of you, and can be awesome ledge guarding tools because they just longer by the ledge. This forces bad recovery manuevers that can be caught by the enticing PP. Orange can be walked in front of, and then covers the end lag of a grab or attack. Power pac jump makes up for our shortened recovery, is an amazing OOS move, kills early when combined with uthrow on top of the hydrant--> water chase--> up B. We don't really need an on stage tranpoline as much since the fruit already demand so much respect.

I should probably make a customs discussion thread.

 

[Firedemon0]

I should probably make a customs discussion thread.

I was under the impression that this was the customs discussion thread. I find Enticing really underwhelming, because it makes our obvious side b even more obvious. I can see the interaction with Lazy fruit as a bonus, but you could still just default side b them just the same. It does not seem that much stronger overall to lose that extra recovery. It also is just too slow to use for a quick side b as a follow up.

I do think that Lazy fruit was also ignored a bit. I do find the freaky fruit has more interesting interactions then lazy, and some of the fruit are still easy to grab. Freaky fruit however has a very large charge time for later fruits, and strawberry is likely the most useful one outside of an offstage key. Lazy Galaxian alone makes it a good choice just for the pressure it grants, and the previously mentioned side b usage.

 

[Nu~]

I was under the impression that this was the customs discussion thread. I find Enticing really underwhelming, because it makes our obvious side b even more obvious. I can see the interaction with Lazy fruit as a bonus, but you could still just default side b them just the same. It does not seem that much stronger overall to lose that extra recovery. It also is just too slow to use for a quick side b as a follow up.

I do think that Lazy fruit was also ignored a bit. I do find the freaky fruit has more interesting interactions then lazy, and some of the fruit are still easy to grab. Freaky fruit however has a very large charge time for later fruits, and strawberry is likely the most useful one outside of an offstage key. Lazy Galaxian alone makes it a good choice just for the pressure it grants, and the previously mentioned side b usage.

Yep. Completely agreed. Opponents gimp my enticing pellet so easily...
Every variation of fruit should see use, but we need to find out when and why we would use one over the other (ex. On-fire hydrant can turn the tables in the sonic matchup and power pac jump is really good for killing rosa and smacking Luma away)

...with customs, how many of our bad matchups still remain?
The 3 40:60 matchups I believe that we have are rosa, fox, and lucario
the instant heal pellet technique already makes the rosa matchup a hell of a lot better along with power pac jump.
Fox normally pressures is really well, but freaky and lazy fruit are better for keeping him away, and the meteor hitbox on meteor trampoline wrecks fire fox.
Lucario probably isn't a 40:60 matchup. In theory this matchup should be simple...but aura.
We just need to find better kill setups (freaky strawberry/lazy galaxian/power pac jump)
Sonic may be in there too, but even then, on-fire hydrant messes up his ground game a lot. It makes his approach more predictable since he can't just run through it without the risk of getting burned, and it takes away a lot of ground space.

 

[Paper Maribro]

Yep. Completely agreed. Opponents gimp my enticing pellet so easily...
Every variation of fruit should see use, but we need to find out when and why we would use one over the other (ex. On-fire hydrant can turn the tables in the sonic matchup and power pac jump is really good for killing rosa and smacking Luma away)

...with customs, how many of our bad matchups still remain?
The 3 40:60 matchups I believe that we have are rosa, fox, and lucario
the instant heal pellet technique already makes the rosa matchup a hell of a lot better along with power pac jump.
Fox normally pressures is really well, but freaky and lazy fruit are better for keeping him away, and the meteor hitbox on meteor trampoline wrecks fire fox.
Lucario probably isn't a 40:60 matchup. In theory this matchup should be simple...but aura.
We just need to find better kill setups (freaky strawberry/lazy galaxian/power pac jump)
Sonic may be in there too, but even then, on-fire hydrant messes up his ground game a lot. It makes his approach more predictable since he can't just run through it without the risk of getting burned, and it takes away a lot of ground space.

3 40:60 matchups?! Are you serious?

Rosalina and Sonic are both 70:30 to me, Yoshi is easily 65:35, Lucario could easily be that high too. Fox is probably up there simply because jab-jab-USmash is guaranteed at kill percent. A quick, unpunishable move that combos into Fox's kill move guaranteed? No thanks. What about ZSS? She's 60:40. An argument could be made for Sheik, Diddy, Bowser, Mario and others.

Which of these get better with customs?

Well on fire really shuts down rush down as approaching with a damaging stage control device is really unsafe. I'm not really sure how lazy fruit or freaky fruit will help but freaky melon does 13% so we can z drop launch the hydrant and lazy galaxian is really good for just stoppings people approaching. The biggest drawback with lazy and freaky is the extended charge time. It makes accessing the really good fruit frustrating.

I am yet to use the alternative fruit really in any real way but will use it if convinced.

 

[Nu~]

3 40:60 matchups?! Are you serious?

Rosalina and Sonic are both 70:30 to me, Yoshi is easily 65:35, Lucario could easily be that high too. Fox is probably up there simply because jab-jab-USmash is guaranteed at kill percent. A quick, unpunishable move that combos into Fox's kill move guaranteed? No thanks. What about ZSS? She's 60:40. An argument could be made for Sheik, Diddy, Bowser, Mario and others.

Which of these get better with customs?

Well on fire really shuts down rush down as approaching with a damaging stage control device is really unsafe. I'm not really sure how lazy fruit or freaky fruit will help but freaky melon does 13% so we can z drop launch the hydrant and lazy galaxian is really good for just stoppings people approaching. The biggest drawback with lazy and freaky is the extended charge time. It makes accessing the really good fruit frustrating.

I am yet to use the alternative fruit really in any real way but will use it if convinced.

XD It's always good to have someone question my "insanity"
So why are those matchups so hard for you (come on, 70:30 and 35:65?Are we using the same character? And bowser???? Do they shoot 1HKO lasers instead of fire breath?)

Because they don't trouble me (especially yoshi and bowser)
Rosa, fox, and lucario are the only ones that trouble me.
If you tell me, we may be able to find out why our experiences vary so much.
After that, I'll explain why the different fruits help so much.

 

[Paper Maribro]

XD It's always good to have someone question my "insanity"
So why are those matchups so hard for you (come on, 70:30 and 35:65?Are we using the same character? And bowser???? Do they shoot 1HKO lasers instead of fire breath?)

Because they don't trouble me (especially yoshi and bowser)
Rosa, fox, and lucario are the only ones that trouble me.
If you tell me, we may be able to find out why our experiences vary so much.
After that, I'll explain why the different fruits help so much.

A character that invalidates our entire move set with one unpublishable move AND Luma and a character that invalidates our moveset by out maneuvering us in every sense and abuses our lack it range and safe moves.

Yeah, I'd say 60:40 minimum... Not

If you don't believe R&L is 70:30 then please play against a R&L player that KNOWS the MU because it's utterly disgusting. There's literally only one thing we have over R&L and that's projectiles

But wait

Grav Pull is a move that invalidates two of our most important moves and our most important recovery move. Totally destroying and ignoring our projectiles. Without that we have 0 safe luma pokes. Okay, our side b can be used to heal. But what's more important is that we still can't practically use our projectile game without an inherent risk of grav pill and then punishing the lag of our projectile. Customs changes nothing.

As for others, Yoshi can use his superior range, camping ability, weight and power to demolish us. There's very little we get out of customs in this MU either (one I'd like to note, many in the Pac skype group think is one of our worst three).

Lucario is a character that preys upon those that cannot kill him. Freaky fruit may alleviate that slightly with strawb/cherry but that has yet to be seen as a reliable kill set up (It may work, it may not idk). Other than that, I always see that as a bad MU for us. Lucario is just a lot better than us in a lot of key areas and makes short work of us after we destroy his neutral. Which is kinda dumb but he is who he is.

I haven't got enough Mario experience to know how customs would change anything.

Fox's jab combo still works on us no matter our custom set up, this is still a challenging MU

Sheik might not enjoy Lazy fruit (I remember you saying have fun learning 24 different fruit trajectories, have fun us remembering what MUs each set of 8 is best for and which one to use at a specific time. If anything, it's a tougher thing for us to lean as an opponent can just unlock the specials, use them, and know what they do. We can't unlock the specials and inherently know when to use them. Anyway, Sheik might be easier for us with customs. She doesn't gain much but we gain th on fire hydrant.

Bowser is a challenge for us, don't deny it. He has excellent range and DPH which are two things we don't want to see on a character, add in his impressive ground mobility and (if you will) his superior gains from customs, Bowser is a genuine threat to us. Play a Bowser that knows the MU reasonably well and you're gonna have a tough time doing typical Pac stuff.

Sonic becomes easier with customs for sure, but that doesn't mean those MUs are any easier as standard. I know you love our character and think the world of him, but I'm pretty sure you are the only person that believes we have three 60:40 MUs. If we only have three, we would probably be an easy top 10 character, maybe higher. Pac Man top 10? definitely not. In a grab heavy meta that is currently evolving, not having a usable grab is really kinda harsh on us. As someone so excellently put it, it's like using rock and paper only in a rock, paper, scissors competition.

 

[BSP]

In a grab heavy meta that is currently evolving, not having a usable grab is really kinda harsh on us. As someone so excellently put it, it's like using rock and paper only in a rock, paper, scissors competition.

I said Rock and Scissors because Paper wins by grabbing, which we can't do consistently.

I'm going to add my thoughts to what you said in the M&Ms thread.

 

[Firedemon0]

Snip snip

I find the Skype group in general to be very negative to Pac-man's matchups and playstyle. Quite often I find just frustration from players there, which I think is unfounded and untrue, otherwise Abadango would of stuck with Wario at this point. Kool-aid is doing some crazy offensive things as well.

Rosalina is not 70:30, we can still apply pressure, just not with our specials. The reason Gravity pull is so effective, is that it does invalidate the special moves, but if they are spamming it and cancelling everything, that is exploitable.

The real reason it is a tough matchup, is gravity well combined with her aerial moveset and luma, keeps Pac-man out because of her hit boxes. It is a combination of these tools. That works again Pac-man.

Without Luma however, we have nothing to really fear being offensive, because she does not have a small portable hit-box that eats our attacks. Pac-man is also able to properly react to her aerials without getting poked by Luma. Her hit box is HUGE. There is no reason you are unable to hit her. Luma is what makes that difficult. Your projectiles are used to kill Luma, end stop.

If Rosalina has the fruit she becomes horribly gimped in the air, because even zdropping it causes too large a startup on those same aerials. We can spam Hydrant if she insists on using Gravity well when we use it. The matchup is not hopeless, it just forces Pac-man into a particular and meticulous play-style, she cannot approach us, or pressure Pac-man like Sonic or Fox can, because she stops dead while using gravity pull. She is a very campy character, and aggressive Pac-mans should not have issues once you learn the other players gravity pull preference. It would at most be 65-35, but I still lean towards 60:40 because she is unable to really apply pressure on Pac-man.

 

[Zage]

@ D dragontamer Any opinions on Pac-Man's customs? I've really enjoyed reading your thoughts on Pac-Man as a whole and I'm very curious about the viability of his other customs.

 

[Paper Maribro]

All testing in training mode, on Mario from Centre of FD
Fire hydrant:

Water blasts deal 0% damage
Projectile Hydrant deals 13% damage
Projectile Hydrant Kills at 160%
Hydrant drop deals 9% damage
Dropped hydrant kills at about 200%

On Fire Hydrant:

Fire blasts deal 6% damage if right next to hydrant, 4% everywhere else
Central fire blasts kill around 180%, outer ones do not kill even at stupid percents and next to the edge
Projectile Hydrant deals 15% damage
Projectile Hydrant kills at about 130%
Dropped hydrant deals 6% damage
Dropped hydrant kills at about 300%

The main draw backs seem to be
You cannot hydrant dash
You cannot hydrant surf
You can be damaged by your own hydrant

On Fire vs. Fire Hydrant research notes. Seems relevant here.

 

[dragontamer]

@ D dragontamer Any opinions on Pac-Man's customs? I've really enjoyed reading your thoughts on Pac-Man as a whole and I'm very curious about the viability of his other customs.

Unfortunately, no. I'm not really a big customs player, and I'm not that comfortable talking about stuff that I haven't had much high-level experience playing.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

It sounds like we're having a vibrant discussion here in the Pac Maze which is good. Just remember we need a final 10 sets narrowed down by March 17 which is a good chunk of time but not infinite time. Definitely think carefully about match-ups, counterpicking, and everything a Pac-Man main would need to go as far as possible at EVO.

I would also like to share a likely irrelevant but nifty tidbit I discovered about Pac-Man customs the other day. The flames from the On-Fire Hydrant cannot be absorbed by Ness's PSI Magnet. It's... weird, but also a random little nice thing for Pac-Man.

 

[Firedemon0]

Snip

So far, I would say these are the best options for Pac-man imo.

1112
1131
1121
2132
2112
1132
2111
2121
3121
3111

 

[WeirdChillFever]

I'm gonna take a shot at this and make sets at the hand of the functions the differents fruits sets serve.

Default Fruit: 1112/1132/1123 (RosaSet)
IMO, this is the "fling as many stuff at people possible" set.
The best Side B is default
Any tramp goes IMO, although I recommend default, since there's no kill move to land after a Meteor.
The On-Fire Hydrant is best, because Default Fruit doesn't exactly lend itself for Z-Drop shenanigans.

Freaky Fruit: (Visit my thread pls) 2132, 2131, 2121 (It is a nice rushdown fruit too)
The Trap set, so it obviously comes with On-Fire and Meteor Tramp. There's NO reason NOT to pick Meteor Tramp when picking Freak Fruit.

Lazy Fruit: 3121, 3122, 3321
The Z-Drop, space control set.
I've heard from some that Enticing is a good choice here and in theory, both Hydrant should suffice (Either for launcing Z-Drops or space control)
If you are the king of space control, a nice finisher can help, so hence the choice for Power Pac Tramp.

9 theorycrafted sets. Whaddaya think?

 

[Rashid]

I'd add 3132 or 3332 to those for maximum space control. I'm still on the fence with Enticing Pellet.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Yeah, now that I see it, I added a bit too much PPJ there.

 

[19_]

I have a thought.

Could exploding hydrant be useful against Rosalina?

I know its a terrible move in most matchups, but I don't think the others help Pac as much due to rosa being able to abuse it's placement with her down b. Not to mention luma kinda dislikes the explosion.

 

[Bulby]

Right, so I've been reading through this post, finding out a lot of good information on Pac's customs, disagreeing with certain things, learning new things, etc. So I thought I'd just post my thoughts on everything. Trying to wrap my head around Pac's customs is becoming a nightmare, they're all so complicated, each having they're own unique uses. Let's start with the easy stuff.

Side B

Let's throw 2 out the window right away. It's easier to gimp, and has worse momentum after the pellet, making it not too great for recovery. Now 3 is interesting, I've seen the points being brought up about ruining some characters recovery with the suction properties, but do we really need this? We have so many edgeguard tools with Hydrant and Fruit, that it seems a tad unnecessary to sacrifice recovery for this character specific gimmick. However, speaking of recovery, I think the fact that it takes a while to activate is good, it slows down Pac's air fall speed, meaning you can safely use it under the stage without risk of gimp from most characters. I've tested the distance, and it's slightly less recovery that 1. If this is in conjunction with up B 1 or 2, recovering shouldn't be too much of a problem. I feel that sooner or later, all top players will understand how to gimp Pac's sB1, especially characters like Villager or Rosalina. And once that happens, we rely on up B 1, which top players will figure out as well. I read people say sB3 is easy to gimp, but I suppose it depends where you use it, using it in the low bubble should be alright, bar a character like Villager. Unless you're down a stock and your opponent has 2, in which case they can sacrifice a stock to gimp it. So at the moment, I'm saying sB 3>1>2, if sB3 is used with uB 1 or 2. SPEAKING OF WHICH.....

Up B

uB 1 is great for recovery, until people figure out how to take the last bounce. It's presence on stage is the best thing about it of course, stopping momentum for a lot of characters. Now, ask yourself, would there be any matchups where you wouldn't want this trap, or where setting it up would be a waste of time? For me, the answer is Jigglypuff, or any other aerial based character that isn't fussed about a ground trap. Of course it's still good to throw the opponent off, but against someone like Jigglypuff, I feel like uB2 would be more beneficial. It still acts as a great OoS option, plus with Jigg's light weight, it could potentially be a good KO tool. Another problem with uB1 is that at low percentages, characters like Sheik can take the unblockable and still potentially get a fair into combo. Also, if people are taking the last bounce from uB1, uB2 doesn't have this problem. The only problem I see with uB2 is that if our sB recovery is gimped from down low, we're done for. It's a bit silly to rely on, but there is always the possibility that the opponent could **** up the trampoline steal of uB1. For these reasons however, I'm not feeling uB3. Limited recovery means we're kind of relying on sB, which isn't ideal. The fact that it grounds opponents is cool, but you should always be prepared for if they fall into the final trampoline of uB1 and punish. Grounding would be good for landing smash attacks, but I feel that sacrificing recovery for this isn't necessary, we just need to be more aware with the nature of uB1. Plus we have Bell for guaranteed smash attacks. Off stage as well seems a tad unnecessary, it's not often that you'll have the time to use two bounces to set up for the spike before the opponent has come back. In summary, uB 1>2>3.

Down B

The main thing I like about Hydrant is that it creates a wall your opponent has to respect, and play around. It also makes them play differently, allowing you to counter they're attempts to knock the Hydrant away. For this reason, I'm not feeling dB3, so I'm going to ignore it. Now I wasn't really feeling dB2 until I read this forum, and some interesting points have been brought up. Heals, more damage, etc. However, I feel like the fact that you have to respect the fire as well is a tad annoying. Look at how Abadango plays, he'll throw down a Hydrant, run off behind it and charge fruit. With fire, you have to keep blocking the fire, whereas with water, you can let it push you further for more space and quicker fruit charge time. Of course it depends what fruit you're charging for, the two custom Fruits might not require Galaga or above. Water also helps with fruit catching, can gimp some recoveries, set up for surfing, change the trajectory of fruit, and so much more. I think I will need more convincing for dB2, water just seems so versatile. In summary, dB 1>2>3

Fruits (make yourself comfortable)

I'll try not to make this super long, but there's so much to cover. B2 seems like the the more offensive bunch, Cherry and Strawberry are great in that they bring the opponent to you, setting up for Smash attacks and the like. They're also easy to pick up, making the great for pressure. Although they only do 2% and 5% respectively, the followup you get from them more than makes up for it. GREAT. Now, the Orange. Very fast, sure, and it would be good throw out for a surprise, but I can't see much more use for it. It still has the same ending lag, meaning if it's dodged off stage, the pressure you can follow up with it isn't as good as the regular Orange. Also less knockback means throwing out on stage doesn't really accomplish much, normal Orange at least knocks them back enough for you to set up shop. The Apple, I'm not too sure of. It's easy to catch with the water Hydrant, and the knockback isn't too much worse than the normal Apple. Might be good for targeting low recoveries into a nair or something. Aside from those four, I feel like the rest are buttcheeks. Melon has great damage and knockback, sure, but it's arc might make it difficult to land, and it's not easy to catch amidst the neutral game of a match, especially against rushdown. Galaga, Bell and Key are raw ass.

Lazy Fruit (B3) I feel is the ultimate camping bunch. Cherry, Strawberry and Orange are ridiculously easy to catch, and throwing the first two up or down creates this wall that they have to respect. Orange's slow speed might be good for edgeguarding, though the knockback isn't too great, a followup should be easy enough. Apple and Melon have the same benefits and the first two, though a water Hydrant might be needed to catch them and set this up. Galaga seems pretty rad, and if they shield it, it might be a free grab (grabbing? with Pac Man? what an outlandish idea). Bell is super easy to grab, and has the same benefits as Bell 1. The key seems a bit useless, same edgeguarding properties and the orange perhaps.

So I'm still unsure about the three Neutral choices. My biggest gripe with B1 is that, sooner or later, people will understand that, aside from Galaga and Key, they can just shield the fruit and grab them with a fair as it bounces off them. Luckily, B2 and B3 don't bounce off, they disappear as soon as they hit something (Except Galaga 2/3 and Key 3). So when this becomes common knowledge, using anything in B1 outside of Galaga (which can be nair grabbed) and Key might be considered risky, unless it's thrown, rather than from B. So I honestly can't say which is better for the moment, but I will say that, in general, B1/3>2.

Let me know what you guys think, I'd love to just figure out the best sets for this guy, but we're in the unfortunate situation where there isn't a clear choice for best custom. Sorry it's so long as well, I just needed to get my thoughts out here, in the hopes that someone will critique what I've said and stuff and thingz.

 

[Jay-kun]

Right, so I've been reading through this post, finding out a lot of good information on Pac's customs, disagreeing with certain things, learning new things, etc. So I thought I'd just post my thoughts on everything. Trying to wrap my head around Pac's customs is becoming a nightmare, they're all so complicated, each having they're own unique uses. Let's start with the easy stuff.

Side B

Let's throw 2 out the window right away. It's easier to gimp, and has worse momentum after the pellet, making it not too great for recovery. Now 3 is interesting, I've seen the points being brought up about ruining some characters recovery with the suction properties, but do we really need this? We have so many edgeguard tools with Hydrant and Fruit, that it seems a tad unnecessary to sacrifice recovery for this character specific gimmick. However, speaking of recovery, I think the fact that it takes a while to activate is good, it slows down Pac's air fall speed, meaning you can safely use it under the stage without risk of gimp from most characters. I've tested the distance, and it's slightly less recovery that 1. If this is in conjunction with up B 1 or 2, recovering shouldn't be too much of a problem. I feel that sooner or later, all top players will understand how to gimp Pac's sB1, especially characters like Villager or Rosalina. And once that happens, we rely on up B 1, which top players will figure out as well. I read people say sB3 is easy to gimp, but I suppose it depends where you use it, using it in the low bubble should be alright, bar a character like Villager. Unless you're down a stock and your opponent has 2, in which case they can sacrifice a stock to gimp it. So at the moment, I'm saying sB 3>1>2, if sB3 is used with uB 1 or 2. SPEAKING OF WHICH.....

Up B

uB 1 is great for recovery, until people figure out how to take the last bounce. It's presence on stage is the best thing about it of course, stopping momentum for a lot of characters. Now, ask yourself, would there be any matchups where you wouldn't want this trap, or where setting it up would be a waste of time? For me, the answer is Jigglypuff, or any other aerial based character that isn't fussed about a ground trap. Of course it's still good to throw the opponent off, but against someone like Jigglypuff, I feel like uB2 would be more beneficial. It still acts as a great OoS option, plus with Jigg's light weight, it could potentially be a good KO tool. Another problem with uB1 is that at low percentages, characters like Sheik can take the unblockable and still potentially get a fair into combo. Also, if people are taking the last bounce from uB1, uB2 doesn't have this problem. The only problem I see with uB2 is that if our sB recovery is gimped from down low, we're done for. It's a bit silly to rely on, but there is always the possibility that the opponent could **** up the trampoline steal of uB1. For these reasons however, I'm not feeling uB3. Limited recovery means we're kind of relying on sB, which isn't ideal. The fact that it grounds opponents is cool, but you should always be prepared for if they fall into the final trampoline of uB1 and punish. Grounding would be good for landing smash attacks, but I feel that sacrificing recovery for this isn't necessary, we just need to be more aware with the nature of uB1. Plus we have Bell for guaranteed smash attacks. Off stage as well seems a tad unnecessary, it's not often that you'll have the time to use two bounces to set up for the spike before the opponent has come back. In summary, uB 1>2>3.

Down B

The main thing I like about Hydrant is that it creates a wall your opponent has to respect, and play around. It also makes them play differently, allowing you to counter they're attempts to knock the Hydrant away. For this reason, I'm not feeling dB3, so I'm going to ignore it. Now I wasn't really feeling dB2 until I read this forum, and some interesting points have been brought up. Heals, more damage, etc. However, I feel like the fact that you have to respect the fire as well is a tad annoying. Look at how Abadango plays, he'll throw down a Hydrant, run off behind it and charge fruit. With fire, you have to keep blocking the fire, whereas with water, you can let it push you further for more space and quicker fruit charge time. Of course it depends what fruit you're charging for, the two custom Fruits might not require Galaga or above. Water also helps with fruit catching, can gimp some recoveries, set up for surfing, change the trajectory of fruit, and so much more. I think I will need more convincing for dB2, water just seems so versatile. In summary, dB 1>2>3

Fruits (make yourself comfortable)

I'll try not to make this super long, but there's so much to cover. B2 seems like the the more offensive bunch, Cherry and Strawberry are great in that they bring the opponent to you, setting up for Smash attacks and the like. They're also easy to pick up, making the great for pressure. Although they only do 2% and 5% respectively, the followup you get from them more than makes up for it. GREAT. Now, the Orange. Very fast, sure, and it would be good throw out for a surprise, but I can't see much more use for it. It still has the same ending lag, meaning if it's dodged off stage, the pressure you can follow up with it isn't as good as the regular Orange. Also less knockback means throwing out on stage doesn't really accomplish much, normal Orange at least knocks them back enough for you to set up shop. The Apple, I'm not too sure of. It's easy to catch with the water Hydrant, and the knockback isn't too much worse than the normal Apple. Might be good for targeting low recoveries into a nair or something. Aside from those four, I feel like the rest are buttcheeks. Melon has great damage and knockback, sure, but it's arc might make it difficult to land, and it's not easy to catch amidst the neutral game of a match, especially against rushdown. Galaga, Bell and Key are raw ***.

Lazy Fruit (B3) I feel is the ultimate camping bunch. Cherry, Strawberry and Orange are ridiculously easy to catch, and throwing the first two up or down creates this wall that they have to respect. Orange's slow speed might be good for edgeguarding, though the knockback isn't too great, a followup should be easy enough. Apple and Melon have the same benefits and the first two, though a water Hydrant might be needed to catch them and set this up. Galaga seems pretty rad, and if they shield it, it might be a free grab (grabbing? with Pac Man? what an outlandish idea). Bell is super easy to grab, and has the same benefits as Bell 1. The key seems a bit useless, same edgeguarding properties and the orange perhaps.

So I'm still unsure about the three Neutral choices. My biggest gripe with B1 is that, sooner or later, people will understand that, aside from Galaga and Key, they can just shield the fruit and grab them with a fair as it bounces off them. Luckily, B2 and B3 don't bounce off, they disappear as soon as they hit something (Except Galaga 2/3 and Key 3). So when this becomes common knowledge, using anything in B1 outside of Galaga (which can be nair grabbed) and Key might be considered risky, unless it's thrown, rather than from B. So I honestly can't say which is better for the moment, but I will say that, in general, B1/3>2.

Let me know what you guys think, I'd love to just figure out the best sets for this guy, but we're in the unfortunate situation where there isn't a clear choice for best custom. Sorry it's so long as well, I just needed to get my thoughts out here, in the hopes that someone will critique what I've said and stuff and thingz.

HAPPY FIRST MESSAGE WELCOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously though, nice work. You completely changed my opinions on customs for the better. But with this said, is there no hope for defaults (especially bonus fruit/trampoline/power pellet) since they can be exploited so easily! This is completely unfair what the customs have over the defaults. Pac mains will be forced to use customs;-; its not really a choice anymore

 

[Rashid]

@ Bulby : Are you aware of the meteor hitbox directly below Up B 3 every time someone bounces on it? It's hilariously the safest meteor in the game, besides Link's meteor bombs and Samus's slip bombs. And it still works decently as a recovery: the first bounce is slightly higher than the default's first bounce. You just have to be smarter with your side B to use it. I still think everyone here is sleeping on it, hard.

Also, you completely neglected the fact Freaky Melon is stronger than the normal melon. More importantly, it does 13% and it's easy to catch. You can instantly knock hydrants with Z-drops. Freaky Galaga is pretty much a better version of the Orange. It's better for catching other zoners off-guard. I still have no idea what makes it fly higher than usual sometimes. Freaky Key has one use: meteors, if you're not using meteor trampoline. You'll rarely be able to land it against most recoveries, but it's very helpful against characters like Villager (who can pocket trampoline, making Power Pac-Jump ideal) since his recovery leaves him wide open. Also, Lazy Apple and Melon being hard to catch? what. They pretty much bounce in the same spot for a few seconds, unless they hit something (in which case, what's the problem?). They're the easiest to catch. Also, if I'm not wrong, Freaky Apple is the strongest of the 3, though I might need to test that again.

@ Jay-kun Pac-Man's defaults are already great. Sure, some of them are exploitable by the opponent, but that doesn't mean they're flat-out worse than his customs. We always play with customs in my (irrelevant) region and I still bust out default Pac-Man depending on the match-up and comfort level. Stay positive and keep trying stuff.

 

[Bulby]

@ Bulby : Are you aware of the meteor hitbox directly below Up B 3 every time someone bounces on it? It's hilariously the safest meteor in the game, besides Link's meteor bombs and Samus's slip bombs. And it still works decently as a recovery: the first bounce is slightly higher than the default's first bounce. You just have to be smarter with your side B to use it. I still think everyone here is sleeping on it, hard.

Also, you completely neglected the fact Freaky Melon is stronger than the normal melon. More importantly, it does 13% and it's easy to catch. You can instantly knock hydrants with Z-drops. Freaky Galaga is pretty much a better version of the Orange. It's better for catching other zoners off-guard. I still have no idea what makes it fly higher than usual sometimes. Freaky Key has one use: meteors, if you're not using meteor trampoline. You'll rarely be able to land it against most recoveries, but it's very helpful against characters like Villager (who can pocket trampoline, making Power Pac-Jump ideal) since his recovery leaves him wide open. Also, Lazy Apple and Melon being hard to catch? what. They pretty much bounce in the same spot for a few seconds, unless they hit something (in which case, what's the problem?). They're the easiest to catch. Also, if I'm not wrong, Freaky Apple is the strongest of the 3, though I might need to test that again.

@ Jay-kun Pac-Man's defaults are already great. Sure, some of them are exploitable by the opponent, but that doesn't mean they're flat-out worse than his customs. We always play with customs in my (irrelevant) region and I still bust out default Pac-Man depending on the match-up and comfort level. Stay positive and keep trying stuff.

Okay, so I wrote my post quite late last night, so sorry for any discrepancies anything sounding silly. But let me address the points you bring up.

I was unaware of uB3 having the meteor effect on every bounce. This does seem really good, but I guess you would need to be careful of when to recover with sB as well. It looks like it has good range as well, but you would have to space it's use properly, correct? If they get caught in the trampoline, it acts as all the other versions, the get hit with you and go up. And they could just hit you out of your meteor set up. Though I guess a trade would be in your favor. Though I still don't know, I'd rather have better recovery than a meteor effect.

Now I realized Freaky Melon did do more, though I forgot to mention it, so OOPS. But, I mean, it still travels quite a bit. I would say it's easy to catch if the opponent is off stage, which makes it super great. But in the middle of neutral, where going to catch it seems very obvious, I can't get behind that. In an ideal world, a smart player will understand the trajectory of the fruit after one use of it, and then perhaps go for a catch themselves. Of course I'm not saying all players will be switched on enough to keep track of which fruit we're going to use, but the possibility is still there, especially if we're playing a predominantly camping game, the opponent should have more time to think about these things. Freaky Galaga being a better Orange, I didn't think of. Though it doesn't have horizontal knockback, so I don't know. The Freaky Key being a meteor, I'm not sure how good that actually is. The limited range kind of means any air dodge will negate it. My point about Lazy Apple and Melon is similar to Freaky Melon, easy to catch when the opponent is off stage, but just as easy to catch for the opponent should they be on stage.

 

[Firedemon0]

Snip.

Cool little trick about meteor key. You can bait an air dodge with fair, then immediately punish with a b reverse key if you space properly.

 

[Raijinken]

1122, 2122, 2112, and 1112 are the main ones I go for. Meteor Trampoline has some uses, too, but generally I've found I more often need the boosted height than the floor control.

 

[Bulby]

Cool little trick about meteor key. You can bait an air dodge with fair, then immediately punish with a b reverse key if you space properly.

Oh. REALLY. This is interesting. If this is guaranteed, this is pretty good. Would a bair on an air dodge followed by a normal Key work as well? If you did the bair earlier, I mean.

Also, I've been doing a bit more thinking on the Up B customs. What I'm thinking is that Up B 2 (no trampoline left behind) is good against characters that are not fussed about the trampoline as a disruption on stage, and Up B 3 (meteor) is great against opponents who can't gimp the Side B recovery without putting themselves at risk. These are the matchups I think these relate to, I've put a bracket with reasoning next to those who I'm not too sure of yet.

Up B 2 - Peach (Predominantly fights around float, avoiding trampoline), [Toon] Link + Duck Hunt + Pac-Man + Mega Man (Primarily keepaway game), Dedede (mainly fall down nair game + gordos, can probably nair after trampoline bounce against us), Jigglypuff (aerial based game) and Villager (can pocket trampoline). Against light characters, up B could lead to a KO.

Up B 3 (struggle to recover after gimping a low down side B recovery, with a double jump - Bowser(?), DK, DIddy(?), Little Mac, Dr. Mario (?)

And then standard up B for the rest of the cast. Perhaps put Rosalina in the Up B 2 camp, but it's one 'projectile' whereby if she uses down B to take it, we can chase her without fear of being hit (I think :s ) I don't know about Mii Sword/Gun.

Let me know what you all think.

**EDIT**

Just done some testing with Up B and Side B on a custom stage with platforms that are close together. Here are some numbers representing height in platforms.

Up B 1 Bounce 1 = 7, Bounce 2 = 12
Up B 2 = 13
Up B 3 Bounce 1 = 9, Bounce 2 = 8.

Side B 1 = 17, Pellet travels 9, fall by 6 in air.
Side B 3 = 14, Pellet travels 8, fall by 5 in air.

Now at first, I just saw 17 as the bigger number and thought it was better. But if we're using Side B mainly in the air, falling -6 platforms, raising 17, = 11. Falling -5 platforms, raising 14, = ...11. So, the recovery distance vertically is the same? This is because with Side B 3, you can angle it up almost immediately, whereas Side B 1 curves up to being vertical. SO, in summary, Side B 3 is better purely for vertical recovery, whereas Side B 1 offers better horizontal recovery. **EDIT AGAIN** Despite this, Side B 1 offers you the choice to shorten the Side B if you have to, and the momentum from the is great. Plus you can move the pellet a bit more to avoid any possible gimp attempts with item dropping. PLUS you can use it sometimes to get away quickly if you're stuck in the air or something. SO, in summary again, I'm thinking Side B 1 is just the more versatile option in any match up, the pellet distance is pretty inconsequential.

As for Up B, I'm still trying to interpret this info.

 

[Firedemon0]

Oh. REALLY. This is interesting. If this is guaranteed, this is pretty good. Would a bair on an air dodge followed by a normal Key work as well? If you did the bair earlier, I mean.

Bair is much too slow. It isn't completely guaranteed. The reason for spacing is that characters with larger hitboxes are susceptible to this. However those with multiple jumps can airdodge with momentum from a jump that can throw off timing. Fair only works because of its low lag, and you need to condition them to airdodge every time, because the timing is tight. Its hard to duplicate on CPU's because of their BS AI. This is something that is more a gotcha then a guaranteed thing.

 

[Zage]

Normal fruit seems to serve its purpose pretty well, I can't imagine when switching Neutral B would be beneficial outside of gimmicky one time tricks. Not only do both customs have slower charge times, but Freaky Fruits weaker fruits pull the enemy towards you making it bad for edge guarding and Lazy Fruit is just asking for the opponent to walk up and grab your fruit.

Neat side note about the meteor key though, even though its stationary you can still push it with the hydrants water, immediately falling off a hydrant and b reversing it pushes it in an upwards arc on the other side of the hydrant.

Up-2 B seems good in theory but bad in practice. Your jumps get weaker with each bounce, limiting your recovery, and Pac-man already has better ways to edge guard than to risk going off stage and landing the spike. The reward you do get for landing the spike on stage doesn't seem worth it in the long run considering they can just mash out of it, its like a worse version of the bell.


I'm really liking Up-B 3 though, it seems really good though OOS, or for those who normally don't use the trampoline as a trap on stage. I haven't gotten a chance to try Down-B 2 in an actual game yet but it seems like a viable option in certain MUs.

I can see myself using 1132, 1131, and 1112 often in a tournament setting.

 

[Nu~]

I wouldn't use the lazy fruit for anyone with good air speed. They can just jump over the fruit and continue to hit us. I may take it to the fox matchup however. His airspeed is straight up garbage and this makes his approach even more predictable. Combined with on-fire hydrant, fox is going to have a lot of trouble getting in. When he does get in, our Utilt combos into itself until 21-28%.


I believe that freaky fruit is definitely the best rush down fruit since the lower tier fruit allow for awesome follow ups/traps/combos. The higher tier fruit are best for covering approaches and clearing the way of projectiles. Every fruit is amazing for gimping and edguarding.

Cherry and strawberry are quick to charge, come out fast, and pull the opponent in for a follow up (strawberry -> usmash is a true combo at even high percentages when spaced properly)
Giving us the kill confirm that we NEED.
But of course, pulling the opponent in has other perks as well such as stage spikes and hilarious gimps (Throw a strawberry when your opponent pursues you off stage. Now your opponent is either dead, or in a very disadvantageous position)
They also linger when thrown for great space control.

The orange becomes an amazing double jump stealer and far range pressure tool that beats energy based projectiles like falco's laser and Megaman's fsmash.

Apple is for mind games and awesome edgeguarding, while the melon is an awesome anti air that stops diagonal approaches which is super good when the opponent jumps on or over the trampoline. The melon can even be used for edgeguarding since it falls indefinitely if it doesn't have a surface to bounce off of.
Not to mention that it can launch the hydrant in one z drop.

Now galaxian, bell, and key may seem like booty butt cheeks at first, but if you take another look, they really aren't bad at all. The Galaxian, as excellently put, is a better orange that eats beats nearly every other projectile (breaking through mega man's pellet wall, metal blade, crash bomb, and fsmash. Also eats samus's missles and charge shot)
Giving us an effective "eraser" to clear the way for us and give us an easy approach, or solid sniping tool at the ledge. You can even get fancy and throw it behind you, bait an air dodge (or draw a side B), and let it loop back at your opponent which can even combo with the side B if the opponent air dodges too early.

The bell is great for catching aerial approaches and landings. It can also push opponents off stage during the first hit on the ground.

The key can actually combo with the hydrant. If you throw a hydrant down in the opponent, they will fly diagonally up in front of you. This is when you nail them with the key off stage for a very fancy spike. Or, you can use it as a very safe spike when your opponent is trying to recover, especially for characters with no hitbox on their recoveries.
For me, I think 1 or 2>>3 for the bonus fruit variations.
Default and freaky fruit both serve different purposes that you can switch depending on the matchup. Lazy seems like its best used for space control, yet you don't gain much advantage from it at all (besides really good stationary ledge guards)

 

[BSP]

How is Power Pac Jump's KO power? Did anyone see if enticing and distance PP heal the same amount as default?

 

[Nu~]

How is Power Pac Jump's KO power? Did anyone see if enticing and distance PP heal the same amount as default?

Yeah, both enticing and distance heal the same. 2%.
Also, power pac jump is pretty powerful. Killed a yoshi on omega wily castle at 100% after uthrow

http://youtu.be/hOhT_SXBEs4

I think I would run 1122,1121,1112, 2122, 2121, and 2112
(Up B 2 is the power pac jump)

Lazy fruit can be effective if you want to abuse hydrant gushing to cover your approach, but this isn't too effective against CQC based characters who want to approach you all the time.
Even then, freaky fruit and bonus fruit can be caught and used this way while having other purposes as well. On-fire hydrant already scares away rush down characters (especially captain falcon, who we already dance on due to the on stage trampoline)
Seriously, don't count out freaky fruit, we really want these kill setups against certain characters (glares at custom bowser and DK)