• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Online: The real reason Sakurai made Brawl so different

Yuna

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Sep 1, 2004
Messages
10,358
Location
Stockholm, Sweden
well mk is a racing game therefore it doesn't need everything to happen immediatley smash bros does so it lags
I'm sorry, what? In Mario Kart, you bump into each other, get and throw items and can often see your opponents in realtime right next to you. You need to know the exact polygons their karts are occupying in order for the game to determine what happens when two karts collide.

When two karts collide, one cart might flip over while the other goes unscathed. Nor they'll both just lose speed. Or one kart will lose its item. Or it won't, depending on how hard and how it was hit. Or...

A lot of information has to be exchanged for Mario Kart Wii as well. Also, did you even read my post detailing how online gaming works and how slowing the game down doesn't solve anything?

10 frames (and I was being generous, it's more like 30-40-50-60 frames) of lag does not magically get reduced if you make the game twice as slow. The game does not compensate for the input lag by having startup lag being automatically reduced. Startup lag stays constant.

Reducing startup lag will thus not reduce the online lag. 8 frames for a shorthop + 40 frames of online lag = 48 frames to shorthop. 4 frames to shorthop + 40 frames of online lag = 44 frames to shorthop. The difference here is just the startup. The online lag didn't magically lessen.
 

Yukiwarashi

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Messages
2,119
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
Yeah. Come on, using Mario Kart, a racing game as an example? How low can you go?

And looking at SamuraiPanda's old translation thread, the speed moderation idea was right there in our faces. Someone wrote to Sakurai saying that SSBM was too fast, so he slowed down the game for ease of combat. That's all there is to it. =/
 

Yuna

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Sep 1, 2004
Messages
10,358
Location
Stockholm, Sweden
Yeah. Come on, using Mario Kart, a racing game as an example? How low can you go?
Because it's not really that different from Brawl in terms of how online works.

And looking at SamuraiPanda's old translation thread, the speed moderation idea was right there in our faces. Someone wrote to Sakurai saying that SSBM was too fast, so he slowed down the game for ease of combat. That's all there is to it. =/
SamuraiPanda claims the game was slowed down to compensate for Online lag, though. I'm all for the quite logical theory that he slowed the game down because the casual gamers felt Melee was too fast for them. I don't agree with it, but it's my best bet. It's not what this discussion is about, though.

He's also suggesting that L-canceling and wavedashing is somehow "too fast" for Online to register when it doesn't friggin' matter if the frame window is small. If one successfully pulls it off, one successfully pulls it off. If not, then one failed. Unless the game is programmed to be incapable of registering commands made within small frame windows, it shouldn't matter.

But a lot of low-frame techniques are still possible in Brawl (and Online), so this theory fails as well.
 

RDK

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 3, 2006
Messages
6,390
"For ease of combat"? What the hell does that even mean?

And using MKW as an example was to show you how two games with the same exact potential when it comes to quality and depth can be drastically different because of the people heading the project. Whoever headed MKW wasn't an ignorant, everybody-wins scrub; therefore MKW's online experience, gameplay, etc. turned out alright.

On the other hand, Sakurai IS an ignorant scrub with an everybody-wins mindset. Therefore Brawl sucks.
 

SamuraiPanda

Smash Hero
Joined
May 22, 2006
Messages
6,924
Interesting. People are actually debating this. Well, I don't have time to give any length rebuttals right now, but I don't agree with your reasoning Yuna. You're correct in saying that its illogical that slowing the game down would reduce lag, but you're wrong in thinking that they were trying to reduce lag by slowing the game down. Instead of fixing the lag, they were trying to make the game more playable when its lagging. Or do you disagree that its harder to play a fast game thats lagging over a slow game thats lagging? Like I said, I don't have time to go into it much more than that, but thats just where I would start from ^_^''

Yeah. Come on, using Mario Kart, a racing game as an example? How low can you go?
Indeed. Trying to compare a racing game's online to a fighting game's online doesn't work. If you want to compare online systems, then compare it to other fighters that are online.

And keep in mind that the central idea of my entire argument is that this game was built from the ground up as an online game. But other fighters are built from the ground up as fighting games with online tacked on.

And looking at SamuraiPanda's old translation thread, the speed moderation idea was right there in our faces. Someone wrote to Sakurai saying that SSBM was too fast, so he slowed down the game for ease of combat. That's all there is to it. =/
Yes, he mentioned the speed moderation, but he didn't say it was for ease of combat. He said it was because he wanted to make aerials more viable. Basically, the "speed moderation" was making the game floatier.
 

RDK

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 3, 2006
Messages
6,390
Interesting. People are actually debating this. Well, I don't have time to give any length rebuttals right now, but I don't agree with your reasoning Yuna. You're correct in saying that its illogical that slowing the game down would reduce lag, but you're wrong in thinking that they were trying to reduce lag by slowing the game down. Instead of fixing the lag, they were trying to make the game more playable when its lagging. Or do you disagree that its harder to play a fast game thats lagging over a slow game thats lagging? Like I said, I don't have time to go into it much more than that, but thats just where I would start from ^_^''
I would assume both the fast and the slow game would be equally unenjoyable in great amounts of lag.

However, making the entire game engine slower isn't by far the best solution to online lag. Try QUITTING THE MATCH if there's too much latency. No need to make the gameplay like molasses.

You wouldn't do it to a racing game or an FPS. Why do it to a fighter?
 

Yuna

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Sep 1, 2004
Messages
10,358
Location
Stockholm, Sweden
Interesting. People are actually debating this. Well, I don't have time to give any length rebuttals right now, but I don't agree with your reasoning Yuna. You're correct in saying that its illogical that slowing the game down would reduce lag, but you're wrong in thinking that they were trying to reduce lag by slowing the game down. Instead of fixing the lag, they were trying to make the game more playable when its lagging. Or do you disagree that its harder to play a fast game thats lagging over a slow game thats lagging? Like I said, I don't have time to go into it much more than that, but thats just where I would start from ^_^''
But this is still horrible logic.

"You cannot play Online the same way as you play Offline". This still holds true to Brawl, even if Brawl is noticeably slower than Melee.

To punish everyone by slowing down the game considerably because you cannot play it on the same level online as offline is moronic. Why should it even matter?! If Brawl were just as fast as Melee, why would Online magically change?

Yes, we wouldn't be able to do everything we did in Melee offline, but why does that matter? Online is always a different playing experience and you've always got to play Online a bit differently. Those who wish to play Online will still play online even if they cannot play it with lightning-fast technically-based gameplay as they do offline.

Those who do not wish to do so won't. To punish everyone by taking it all away just because is stupid.

The game is not magically more playable Online now than Melee would've been had it had the same Online as Brawl. It's just that the differences between Online and Offline are less tangible, but that's never been a good excuse to nerf the game.

Other gaming franchises have managed just peachy with laggy gameplay that plays considerably different from their offline counterparts.

What about us that do not wish to play online? Why should we be punished with a slower game? Also, this slow Online is still slower than Offline. Making it slower generally will not change that. The differences between Offline and Online will still be the same. It's just that instead of just not being able to do certain things Online in Brawl, we can't do them Offline either!

Indeed. Trying to compare a racing game's online to a fighting game's online doesn't work. If you want to compare online systems, then compare it to other fighters that are online.
I did. The Guilty Gear XX-series, for one.

And keep in mind that the central idea of my entire argument is that this game was built from the ground up as an online game. But other fighters are built from the ground up as fighting games with online tacked on.
And I maintain that this logic is faulty, whether it's true or not. It's stupid logic and Sakurai is a giant moron if this was the logic he applied. I'm all fine with him slowing the game down to make it more accessibly to new/Casual players... because at least that's logical.

I Yes, he mentioned the speed moderation, but he didn't say it was for ease of combat. He said it was because he wanted to make aerials more viable. Basically, the "speed moderation" was making the game floatier.
How are aerials more viable if the entire game is slower? Like, say, jumping and shorthopping? How are aerials more viable by lessening hitstun and shieldstun? How are aerials more viable by removing the option to cancel their lag at will to make them safer?

I'm just saying, Sakurai tried to do a lot of things for a variety of reasons. He also failed with a lot of these endeavours. And, still, making the game slower to make "online more playable"? Still faulty logic.
 

SamuraiPanda

Smash Hero
Joined
May 22, 2006
Messages
6,924
If you're arguing the "faultiness" of this solution, then I can see where you're coming from. I'm not saying this was the best solution possible; I'm just saying it was the solution that I believe Sakurai went with.

As for the aerial thing, the "speed moderation" was referring to making the game floatier, not the overall speed.

Ugh, I'm going to go study now. I've wasted too much time on SWF today as it is.
 

Yuna

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Sep 1, 2004
Messages
10,358
Location
Stockholm, Sweden
It's still the wrong solution... and stupid... and completely illogical, that's all I'm saying. I don't care if that's why Sakurai did it. Until he says he did it, I'll believe he just wanted a more casually accessible game and that he didn't go mad and think this illogical and stupid solution was the best one (or even a good one at all).

And if this was one of the reasons why he slowed the game down, well, then, frack me, he's even stupider than I could've imagined (despite tripping).
 

SAMaine

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 10, 2006
Messages
290
Actually, I've played Mario Kart. Fairly good at it too, with an 8003 Vs Racing Rating. I KNOW Mario Kart in and out, much like you guys know Smash. Mario Kart Wii DOES predict the racers movements and recalculate their position when it has a chance to during online play. I've seen racers on the map in the corner pop from one place to another. I've seen a racer do that right in front of me.

The least laggy Online Fighting Game I know of is Dead or Alive, and that was because of making online a major focus, and it being pretty casual and frowned upon competitively, even moreso than Smash Bros. Competitive players, that's you guys, will notice the button lag at least. Heck, I am somewhat competitive in Smash and I notice the button lag. Other casual players will not.

However, I do have to side with Yuna in that the casual players WILL complain if someone uses what they perceive as a 'cheat' like Snaking or Wavedashing. This however become greatly damaging if the game has online play. So yes, Brawl IS actually somewhat dumbed down for the casual audience, but it HAD to be dumbed down BECAUSE if the online play is perceived as bad by the casual fanbase, they will be reluctant to buy the next installment. Unfortunally, Brawl's online play IS perceived as bad anyway, but that's likely because it was the first online game Nintendo started work on, and Mario Kart Wii has pretty much set the standard in terms of options in an online Nintendo game.
 

The Real Gamer

Smash Hero
Joined
May 7, 2008
Messages
9,166
Location
Atlanta, Georgia
3DS FC
3437-3797-6559
Nintendo never should have even bothered with the online in the first place. It's just not ready to compete with the Ps3's and Xbox's yet. The Wii has a very bad reputation of attracting casual gamers and alienating hardcore gamers. (like us) 360 forums make fun of the Wii's online capabilities by saying that "The Wii's online was made to be family oriented and geared towards soccer moms." Yet, no matter how terrible the online is, the Wii will still be the most successfull of the 3 consoles thanks to the overflow of casual gamers.

When will Nintendo actually start doing something for the hardcore gamers? I might never see the day come.
 

SAMaine

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 10, 2006
Messages
290
Nintendo never should have even bothered with the online in the first place. It's just not ready to compete with the Ps3's and Xbox's yet. The Wii has a very bad reputation of attracting casual gamers and alienating hardcore gamers. (like us) 360 forums make fun of the Wii's online capabilities by saying that "The Wii's online was made to be family oriented and geared towards soccer moms." Yet, no matter how terrible the online is, the Wii will still be the most successfull of the 3 consoles thanks to the overflow of casual gamers.

When will Nintendo actually start doing something for the hardcore gamers? I might never see the day come.
Again, most of the reason that Nintendo's online is the way it is is because Nintendo would lose sales with the PC online that Microsoft and Sony try to imitate... Well, you've heard of the reputation of Xbox Live in that people say things that would get them banned on any decent Forum. That's the REAL problem WITH Microsoft and Sony's online. How are you going to attract new gamers if all the old gamers call them things that would get me banned here? Nintendo has been reluctant about online for that very reason. Nintendo caters to the casuals because they bring in the most money as seen with the Wii and DS. You can expect that Monster Hunter 3's online will be an extension of the online in previous games, rather than use Nintendo's Online Policy.
 

Spartan1841

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 27, 2007
Messages
267
Sakurai said in an interview that online was not a big priority

They just focused on making the game fun.
 

lavamage

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 8, 2007
Messages
524
Location
Wisconsin...yay that place no one has ever heard o
All good except point 4, in an interview with Nintendo Power Sakurai said (not an exact quote, but I am trying to remember what he said) "To me it was not a matter of Taking out wavdashing, (something) it had to do with the new engine" or something, he said that he did not choose to take out Wavedashing, but it was the engine that simply prevented it.

As far as L-canceling, I don't know i it was that or teching that was featured on the N64 "Dojo" that was put in the game honestly, but if L-canceling wasn't, then I am going to assume that was the same thing, they didn't try to take it out, but they didn't bother adding extra effort to put it in.

everything else is dead on, a good read Panda.
 

arrowhead

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 20, 2006
Messages
723
Location
under a rock
As far as L-canceling, I don't know i it was that or teching that was featured on the N64 "Dojo" that was put in the game honestly, but if L-canceling wasn't, then I am going to assume that was the same thing, they didn't try to take it out, but they didn't bother adding extra effort to put it in.
it was l-cancelling. they took it out on purpose and added auto cancelling, which is nowhere near as good but much easier to execute
 
Top Bottom