Omni: Should We Still Use Custom Moves in Smash 4?

[Omegascizor456]

Fast Fireballs OP please ban

PLEASE BAN CUSTOM DK

 

[Sammy-jack]

What's really funny about customs, is that I love them and hate them being used against me.
I main C. Falcon, and usually play standard when I play with my brother, but he does custom Pikachu with Thunderwave and H. Skull Bash. They are stronger moves than Pika's standards, but nothing that makes our matches lopsided. We both understand WHY people won't use customs, and it makes people have to learn/adapt to a lot more than standard Sm4sh.
They are still a great thing in the game for casual, and we might still get smaller tourneys who will do customs.

 

[ZeroSkillSamus]

Besides the whole being unbalanced thing.

People don't have a problem with Fox undoubtedly being the best character in Melee.

 

[LancerStaff]

People don't have a problem with Fox undoubtedly being the best character in Melee.

So worse balance > better balance? Or am I missing something?

 

[Metallinatus]

So worse balance > better balance? Or am I missing something?

1-1-1-1 unbalance > customs unbalance.
You missed that part.

 

[Unknownkid]

You don't have to use them, remember? It's actually because people still have to deal with others actually using them. They're at a severe disadvantage for not using items, so playing with items is necessary if they want to win.

Same with customs. Customs on meta doesn't include customs off meta.

I truly see your point about Custom On Meta is different from the Custom Off Meta. I couldn't think of a proper counter argument for this statement. I admit you are right here. However, I disagree that default players are at a severe disadvantage against Custom characters compared to Items. For example, in Brawl, ZSS and Wario came with throwable items. Did that immediately shoot them to top tier? No. Players/Characters were about to handle ZSS/Wario item game and prevail. Here at EVO we have the the same thing... Default Characters beat the Custom Characters.

Mr. San. went to a custom tournament with Default Ike (because he didn't feel comfortable with Ike customs) and got 1st place against a Custom Pikachu and Palutena. Where at Apex2013 (or was it EVO2012) we had a "casual" RoB player won the Brawl title because Items were on.

I am sure you understand my previous point but I am going to restate it again - Custom Off ignore several characters and their mains while Custom On includes them all - both 1111 and their variations.

 

[ZeroSkillSamus]

1-1-1-1 unbalance > customs unbalance.
You missed that part.

Or you can learn and adapt.

 

[Metallinatus]

Or you can learn and adapt.

So the "So worse balance > better balance?" suddenly doesn't count anymore.... damn, I love hypocrisy.

 

[ZeroSkillSamus]

So the "So worse balance > better balance?" suddenly doesn't count anymore.... damn, I love hypocrisy.

How is it unbalanced if non-custom sets still beat customs at major tournaments?

 

[Metallinatus]

How is it unbalanced if non-custom sets still beat customs at major tournaments?

That's because, as mentioned, most top players are still against customs.... and mainly because ZeRo is against them and he is too op even without them.
But let a top player put his hands on a scrub's Villager and see the damage he will do to the meta.
Thanks Arceus top players are against customs.

 

[LancerStaff]

I truly see your point about Custom On Meta is different from the Custom Off Meta. I couldn't think of a proper counter argument for this statement. I admit you are right here. However, I disagree that default players are at a severe disadvantage against Custom characters compared to Items. For example, in Brawl, ZSS and Wario came with throwable items. Did that immediately shoot them to top tier? No. Players/Characters were about to handle ZSS/Wario item game and prevail. Here at EVO we have the the same thing... Default Characters beat the Custom Characters.

Mr. San. went to a custom tournament with Default Ike (because he didn't feel comfortable with Ike customs) and got 1st place against a Custom Pikachu and Palutena. Where at Apex2013 (or was it EVO2012) we had a "casual" RoB player won the Brawl title because Items were on.

I am sure you understand my previous point but I am going to restate it again - Custom Off ignore several characters and their mains while Custom On includes them all - both 1111 and their variations.

Character items aren't random enough to matter... ZSS's weren't at all.

And customs on kills a bunch of characters because of viability. Might as well not exist in that meta...

How is it unbalanced if non-custom sets still beat customs at major tournaments?

Less balanced =/= unbeatable. Less balanced =/= bigger character gaps. Which reduces variety and was the point of customs in the first place.

 

[-LzR-]

That's because, as mentioned, most top players are still against customs.... and mainly because ZeRo is against them and he is too op even without them.
But let a top player put his hands on a scrub's Villager and see the damage he will do to the meta.
Thanks Arceus top players are against customs.

How about you stop circlejerking to top players and start thinking with your own head? You make it sound like customs are straight up OP upgrades to existing specials when they are just modifications to them.
But I guess learning stuff is too hard for your average smasher so they just prefer to ban thing instead.
But hey, at least Sheik is completely fair right?

 

[Metallinatus]

How about you stop circlejerking to top players and start thinking with your own head? You make it sound like customs are straight up OP upgrades to existing specials when they are just modifications to them.
But I guess learning stuff is too hard for your average smasher so they just prefer to ban thing instead.
But hey, at least Sheik is completely fair right?

Sheik is not near as "broken" as some customs....
Not near.
I am not "circlejerking" to top players, did you even read? "Normal" people can still beat characters with broken customs.... even though even the top players still has trouble against those cheap moves, yes, they can be beaten.
Now think, what if Dabuz picked the scrub's Villager? Thankfully, good players don't pick cheap customs because they know they don't need them, but if a top player pick them, it will be a totally different story.
Of course, you can "adapt", but a good move is still a good move....
You can "adapt" to Sheik as much as you want, a top Sheik player will still be a nightmare to you.
Can you understand a little bit of this?


Anyway, who cares? I was not talking about adaptation, I was talking about how customs don't bring more balance at all. But, if you think they do bring more balance, so why instead of keep asking for customs to "balance" the game, you people not just all "adapt" to the better characters?
Cool idea, uh?

 

[Unknownkid]

Character items aren't random enough to matter... ZSS's weren't at all.

And customs on kills a bunch of characters because of viability. Might as well not exist in that meta...

To your first Statement.... What?! So you basically agree that Items are OFF because of randomness. Interesting... So how exactly are Customs "random" like Items?

Which characters does it kill?

 

[ZeroSkillSamus]

Character items aren't random enough to matter... ZSS's weren't at all.

And customs on kills a bunch of characters because of viability. Might as well not exist in that meta...



Less balanced =/= unbeatable. Less balanced =/= bigger character gaps. Which reduces variety and was the point of customs in the first place.

For the sake of your argument, let's say that customs on helps some characters and hurts others. We'll assume that for every character that loses viability, that there is at least one new set for another character. This means that there are the same, if not more, different playstyles, which DOES lead to variety. Now, let's assume that the same amount of new playstyles replace those that are now deemed unviable. This would now mean that, rather than knowing 48 characters with one set each, you may have to learn (on the low end) 24 characters with 2 sets each. It's obviously more than that, but I'll throw you a bone and assume that the total remains the same.

Here's the difference: Without customs, the match may have two different characters, but you'll know the exact moves of each character. Ness with PK Flash, PSI Magnet, etc. Vs ZSS with Paralyzer, Flip Jump, and so on.

With customs off you may see two of the same character, but there are up to 81 theoretical sets of moves that each character could be using! Is his Palutena using Jump glide? OMG, that girl over there is using Ness's PSI Vacuum! Do you see what I mean? Customs on adds variety, surprise AND excitement to the match!

 

[LancerStaff]

To your first Statement.... What?! So you basically agree that Items are OFF because of randomness. Interesting... So how exactly are Customs "random" like Items?

Which characters does it kill?

Items are off because of randomness and how items on doesn't include off.

Customs should be off because of the lack of balance and more jank and how customs on doesn't include customs off.

MK, Mac, Greninja, Zelda, and the DLC characters are hit pretty hard for starters. The lower ones get their own tier below the current bottom, the higher ones become unviable. Most of the characters to get a real boost become obnoxious...

For the sake of your argument, let's say that customs on helps some characters and hurts others. We'll assume that for every character that loses viability, that there is at least one new set for another character. This means that there are the same, if not more, different playstyles, which DOES lead to variety. Now, let's assume that the same amount of new playstyles replace those that are now deemed unviable. This would now mean that, rather than knowing 48 characters with one set each, you may have to learn (on the low end) 24 characters with 2 sets each. It's obviously more than that, but I'll throw you a bone and assume that the total remains the same.

Here's the difference: Without customs, the match may have two different characters, but you'll know the exact moves of each character. Ness with PK Flash, PSI Magnet, etc. Vs ZSS with Paralyzer, Flip Jump, and so on.

With customs off you may see two of the same character, but there are up to 81 theoretical sets of moves that each character could be using! Is his Palutena using Jump glide? OMG, that girl over there is using Ness's PSI Vacuum! Do you see what I mean? Customs on adds variety, surprise AND excitement to the match!

Thing is that not only are there more characters brought down because of customs then there are brought up, for the most part customs are chosen for each matchup rather then preference.

We largely have the same number of matchups, and the only time preference can really come through is when it's a largely irrelevant choice and can barely be considered another matchup. No Zelda would bring the exploding Nspecial in against a Fox, nor would DK ever not bring his wind punch in against a Little Mac. Not many would bring an obviously inferior move into a match... And these customs aren't as huge as a whole character.

 

[ZeroSkillSamus]

Items are off because of randomness and how items on doesn't include off.

Customs should be off because of the lack of balance and more jank and how customs on doesn't include customs off.

MK, Mac, Greninja, Zelda, and the DLC characters are hit pretty hard for starters. The lower ones get their own tier below the current bottom, the higher ones become unviable. Most of the characters to get a real boost become obnoxious...



Thing is that not only are there more characters brought down because of customs then there are brought up, for the most part customs are chosen for each matchup rather then preference.

We largely have the same number of matchups, and the only time preference can really come through is when it's a largely irrelevant choice and can barely be considered another matchup. No Zelda would bring the exploding Nspecial in against a Fox, nor would DK ever not bring his wind punch in against a Little Mac. Not many would bring an obviously inferior move into a match... And these customs aren't as huge as a whole character.

For one, if customs are not important, why ban them and not the OP characters? And for another, counter-picking customs is the same concept as counter-picking characters.