Official SWF Matchup Chart v3.0

[Grim Tuesday]

I'm just giving my opinion on a public forum, if you take issue with that then that's your problem, not mine.

It's up to anyone who reads my posts to decide how much they value my opinion, but I'm not going to go against my views or refrain from contributing just because people will disagree with me lel

 

[Delta-cod]

Lol Grim, Yoshi loses to any Metaknight that understands the concept of safe use of Tornado and how to frame trap air dodges.

Please stop talking like Yoshi has answers to solid, basic MK play. He doesn't, lol.

 

[Espy Rose]

I'm just giving my opinion on a public forum, if you take issue with that then that's your problem, not mine.

It's up to anyone who reads my posts to decide how much they value my opinion, but I'm not going to go against my views or refrain from contributing just because people will disagree with me lel

Being considerate, modest, humble, and/or just a little bit aware of the state of the game (or this discussion) is just too much for you to comprehend, isn't it?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Considerate? We're just talking about a game here, I'm not stepping on any toes

 

[Thor]

Considerate?

Actually that's the part you have mostly down. Modest and humble are mediocre at best, but the state of the game thing is what I think the others take issue with.

Last I'd heard, the MU chart we're looking for here details the favorability of a matchup given both players playing at the top levels of their characters and knowing the MU inside and out using all meta-game level techniques. So saying "MK don't know the MU, it's -1" is useful in a chart of practical MUs [how MUs shake down when you or I play them], but for the theory MU chart (if you do your HW like M2K, here's how stuff breaks down), it's irrelevant.

If making a bunch of people annoyed at you for disagreeing is not stepping on any toes, than no worries, Pikachu-MK is even, I'm not stepping on any toes, Pika's fair KO setups are good, it's just ESAM doesn't use those much which is why his record may not be as high as it should be.

Now I'll brace myself for the flaming I'm in for...

 

[PKBeam]

Yoshi gets destroyed by MK. As does most non-top characters.

that's a bit much.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Its actually not.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Actually that's the part you have mostly down. Modest and humble are mediocre at best, but the state of the game thing is what I think the others take issue with.

Last I'd heard, the MU chart we're looking for here details the favorability of a matchup given both players playing at the top levels of their characters and knowing the MU inside and out using all meta-game level techniques. So saying "MK don't know the MU, it's -1" is useful in a chart of practical MUs [how MUs shake down when you or I play them], but for the theory MU chart (if you do your HW like M2K, here's how stuff breaks down), it's irrelevant.

If making a bunch of people annoyed at you for disagreeing is not stepping on any toes, than no worries, Pikachu-MK is even, I'm not stepping on any toes, Pika's fair KO setups are good, it's just ESAM doesn't use those much which is why his record may not be as high as it should be.

Now I'll brace myself for the flaming I'm in for...

I'm not humble/modest because none of you actually think I'm good, so I can't be humble about how good I am. I just state the facts yo

Yet many of mk's current match-ups on the chart are actually 1 worse for mk than they should be because they assume mk doesn't know the match-up, I was poking fun at this fact and saying that if we're going to follow that (********) trend, Yoshi should be -2. I never said I think it should be -1.
That's a really neat way of explaining match-up charts though, I'mma steal that at some point

You can SDI out of fair with ease.

 

[Thor]

(other stuff) that's a bit much.

MK is +2 against everyone below Fox. Wolf and Fox are the lowest characters with -1 MUs on MK. 2-9 all have -1 MUs (with the exception of Pikachu which the chart currently has as 0) and then Wolf and Fox and that's it. MK counters every other character in the game (besides MK himself). If a -2 is "destroys [counters]" then yes MK destroys most non-top tiers. If -2 is "beats handily [counters]" and -3 is "destroys [hard counters]" then no, MK destroys only like a dozen characters or something (not exact here). I'm not gonna take a stance, that's just what the chart says.

Fair can be SDI'd in two hits pretty easily but the window is kind of tight on that and if you mess it up it's still a stock. I was also being at least partly facetious [I'm not gonna restart that debate here].

 

[PKBeam]

If you counter someone that doesn't mean you destroy them.
-2 =/= destroyed, unless that -2 is reaaaaaaally bad.

 

[Cassio]

The more Ive thought about it, the more ive realized those numbers arent so easy to judge. We dont really have a good way to measure 0 to 4 in terms of MUs. I think its better to just simplify them as neutral, advantage, and strong advantage. Metaknight has an advantage on most of the cast, but youre probably going to beat him if youre a better player.

 

[Z'zgashi]

If you counter someone that doesn't mean you destroy them.
-2 =/= destroyed, unless that -2 is reaaaaaaally bad.

It IS that bad in most situations.

 

[Delta-cod]

The more Ive thought about it, the more ive realized those numbers arent so easy to judge. We dont really have a good way to measure 0 to 4 in terms of MUs. I think its better to just simplify them as neutral, advantage, and strong advantage. Metaknight has an advantage on most of the cast, but youre probably going to beat him if youre a better player.

Maybe in the upper tiers. Maybe. But once you get down even to like, upper mid imo, you need to be significantly better to stand a chance.

 

[Espy Rose]

The more Ive thought about it, the more ive realized those numbers arent so easy to judge. We dont really have a good way to measure 0 to 4 in terms of MUs. I think its better to just simplify them as neutral, advantage, and strong advantage. Metaknight has an advantage on most of the cast, but youre probably going to beat him if youre a better player.

You're insane.
Only perhaps 3 or 4 characters can even begin to think they can claim something like that.

 

[Cassio]

Thats perhaps the most optimistic thing Ive heard you say about MK . I should've said 'capable of' though.

 

[Espy Rose]

Those 3-4 theoretical characters are still liable to be insane should they say anything about it.

 

[Thor]

Those 3-4 theoretical characters are still liable to be insane should they say anything about it.

Which characters? I'd guess Pikachu and Falco, beyond that I see like 5 others who probably have the claim but I'm not sure how to cut down from there.

Also why the why is Ike-Snake 0? Can't Snake just camp the **** out of Ike? Or is Ike secretly way better than that?

 

[Z'zgashi]

Because Ike's jab and fair are godlike in that MU and Snake cant do much about them when Ike gets into mid range. And while yes, Snake can camp Ike out, Ike doesnt need to watch out for tilts as much as other characters once he gets passed nades since he has even better options that outrange Snake. Its a weird and hard to explain MU outside of that though, just look up videos of Ryo against Snake or something.

 

[1PokeMastr]

I think it's Fair game.

 

[Thor]

I think it's Fair game.

I thought Falcon vs Falcon was Fair game...

On another note, why is Wolf -2 against Wario? I know Wario is faster (in the air), but I'd think Wolf beats Wario's entire air game by just standing facing opposite Wario and bairing whenever he draws near...

 

[Grim Tuesday]

wario can sit on him lots of times

I'd think Wolf beats Wario's entire air game by just standing facing opposite Wario and bairing whenever he draws near...

even if the chain-grab didn't exist, you can't simplify a match-up like this
wario is a nuanced character with a powerful and diverse toolkit
he doesn't just "lose to bair"

 

[BlueXenon]

Anti said Peach vs MK is close to an even match up. Does anyone think this can be possible with high enough level of play?

Also, Kie, the best Peach main to exist in brawl's history, beat top MK's in Japan, including Otori.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Doesn't he only beat sand-bagging Otori?

I don't even know lol, but I heard that somewhere

 

[1PokeMastr]

Otori realised all of Japan is free, so free, he demonstrates it by letting a Peach win.

Then Otori re demonstrates, after a few tourneys pass and he doesn't enter, and then he wins.

With the Peach there.

 

[BlueXenon]

Doesn't he only beat sand-bagging Otori?

I don't even know lol, but I heard that somewhere

Otori "quit" after the tournament at which he lost to Kie 0-2, however, based on recorded videos from that tournament, Otori was playing fine that day, and Otori didn't really quit. A few months later, Otori won a tournament, beating Choco (a ZSS main) in grand finals.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I thought Falcon vs Falcon was Fair game...

No Falcon dittos are jab game.

So many jabs...

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Knee is seriously the most tired and overused meme
Everything associated with Falcon is

Like, **** guys, it's been a decade
perhaps we should come up with some new funny things to say

 

[NickRiddle]

No .

 

[Z'zgashi]

Knee is seriously the most tired and overused meme
Everything associated with Falcon is

Like, **** guys, it's been a decade
perhaps we should come up with some new funny things to say

*manly

You cant. There is literally nothing more manly than the knee of Douglas Jay Falcon being jammed forcfully into the face of all those who oppose him.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

^See this is actually what I'm talking about
it's not even funny in an ironic and self aware way

it's pretty much just spam

 

[Z'zgashi]

I wasnt trying to be funny...

 

[Gardex]

Knee is seriously the most tired and overused meme
Everything associated with Falcon is

Like, **** guys, it's been a decade
perhaps we should come up with some new funny things to say

One guy does a small Falcon-joke in what I think is the first time I've seen it in literally ages, and you start ranting about how it's an overused "meme"

holy ****

 

[infiniteV115]

Yeah shutup Grim go back to the Australian smashboards where you discuss the traffic:kangaroo MU

 

[Grim Tuesday]

One guy does a small Falcon-joke in what I think is the first time I've seen it in literally ages, and you start ranting about how it's an overused "meme"

holy ****

You're exaggerating how much this bothers me lol, I was just making conversation

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

You're exaggerating how much this bothers me lol, I was just making conversation

No you were definitely ranting.

As punishment you must take a Knee to the face.

 

[PKBeam]

traffic:kangaroo MU

I think it's even.

Knee is seriously the most tired and overused meme

No .

It's the Punch.

Like, **** guys, it's been a decade
perhaps we should come up with some new funny things to say

this.
it's a fair with a powerful sweet spot.
Like 95% of its popularity came from the punch. It's a LK ripoff, we can just say Zelda will give you the foot.

I don't see how the punch/knee memes/jokes are still funny anymore.

 

[Sunnysunny]

Honestly, Falcon jokes are a breath of fresh air in comparison to the amount of jigglypuff ones in this thread.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I think it's even.



It's the Punch.


this.
it's a fair with a powerful sweet spot.
Like 95% of its popularity came from the punch. It's a LK ripoff, we can just say Zelda will give you the foot.

I don't see how the punch/knee memes/jokes are still funny anymore.

Confirmed that Australians hate fun.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

That was a super obvious joke too

but that's kinda your thing

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

That was a super obvious joke too

but that's kinda your thing

yeah I was about to be like "You were expecting subtlety from me? Do you even know me?"


Oh right, Matchups. I think we need to talk about Fox's MUs. Why are they all wrong?