Official Standard Custom Project - Ver. 1

[Aunt Jemima]

Welcome to the official Smashboards Standard Custom Set project. In brief, this project is designed to be a logistical solution to using custom movesets in tournaments by filling many of the in-game slots with the most popular and powerful sets for each character so they can be quickly selected without further 3ds import. This will allow tournaments with customizations on to save large amounts of time throughout the event. More details about the project's ideas and mission can be found here:

http://smashboards.com/threads/project-proposal-we-can-make-custom-moves-fast-easy-and-legal.379555/

Our goal here is to find out what the most popular and powerful sets are for your particular character the best way we know how: asking you the mains of this character. To be clear, we're not talking about disallowing any particular custom sets or even imposing any rules in general; we're talking about making sure the popular and powerful options are simply accessible quickly in a tournament environment as our sole mission. We need up to three critical sets that represent the best options your character has that have wide general utility and from there to fill up to slot 6 with supplemental movesets that will cover less mainstream, more match-up specific, or even teams sets. Slots 7 and 8 are reserved for 2222 and 3333 to allow all moves to be explored more easily in the new metagame, and slots 9 and 10 are left open for 3ds import of non-standard sets.

Please list all movesets in the order NSUD, that is neutral special, side special, up special, and down special. This four digit code will be the naming convention so players can quickly and easily identify which moveset is which.

I know for many characters the default moveset, 1111, is a powerful and useful option. However, it should not be included; the game allows default to be picked regardless of what custom options are prepared so including it does not add any additional options to players.

I further know that some characters may find six slots a large number to fill. Others may find six very limiting. Do your best to pick out the overall six most likely to be picked even if some good stuff has to be left on the table or if some more experimental sets have to be included to fill out six. Every set included is time saved in tournament when that set would be picked, and we want to make the best use we can of these slots.

I would ask that everyone please be respectful of each other's opinions; this game is young, and the metagame is still very much forming so we are likely to each perceive it differently. This project will be revisited throughout the game's lifespan and revised to properly include the most mainstream movesets at the time. What we want for now is what will be commonly selected for now, and don't worry, other options are not being discriminated against as those last two slots are left open for 3ds transfer for a reason. This first version of this project will be refined throughout the rest of the year. Thank you for your cooperation in this project, and we look forward to making sure the most useful options are quickly available for your character under this system.

In the case that you don't know what this is, please read the above!

It's time we get this rolling again and start fixing anything regarding Kirby's current "standard" custom sets. For those who haven't seen it, here's the list:

Kirby

Critical Sets:

3231
3233
3221

Supplemental Sets:

3132
3311
2231

---

Along with that, here's our... less than stellar "review".

"This was a high activity topic with little agreement. I didn't help by being confused at which special was Hammer Bash and which was Hammer Flip for most of the topic (Flip is the name of default apparently, as non-intuitive as that is, and I'm pretty sure at least one of the Kirby players had this backwards too). Kirby is a rare case where all 12 moves seem to have some real utility and support, and that makes it hard to condense. It is clear a Jumping Inhale/Upper Cutter set needs to be #1 and that Wave Cutter, Ice Breath, and Giant Hammer all need to appear at some point. I tried to make as many Kirby players happy as possible; it was hard, and I expect to be yelled at for doing a bad job and told to change this which is okay (also don't read past the implicit inclusion of 3333, a set of seemingly real merit with Kirby)."

 

[Unknownkid]

Right, I read that thread. Well, one of the most popular custom set is 3131:
Leaping Inhale
Hammer Flip
Upper Cutter
Stone


I know a few prefer 3331 or 3133
Leaping Inhale
Giant Hammer/Hammer Flip
Upper Cutter
Stone/Meteor Stone

I have not use custom in an official match so I don't know what my personal set is. But I mess around with 1311:
Inhale
Giant Hammer
Final Cutter (for the Spike-- still trying to master it)
Stone

Hmm... I guess we should discussion about different custom move/set and game theory for remain of the choice sets. For example, I believe Inhale will be a better choice against a character like Sonic since Side B, Down B, and Dash Attack can be safely inhale compared to Leaping Inhale. Meteor Stone and Upper Cutter is better for spiking/stage spiking against character with an extreme good recovery. Giant Hammer for reversal tactics and so forward.

 

[Iko MattOrr]

I'm completely fine with the default Kirby except for the hammer. The default hammer is too slow and laggy. I usually use the 2 custom move for the hammer, because it's faster and can kill more.
So, it would be 1211 for me

I also tried ice instead of inhale, and it was good at first (it deals a lot of damage and can stop many moves), but I noticed that I miss the inhale a lot sometimes.

 

[Asdioh]

Final Cutter (for the Spike-- still trying to master it)

Sorry to break it to you but it really shouldn't work on anybody competent/offline. If you DO manage to land it, that means you could have done the same with Dair, which is generally safer.
Final Cutter simply sucks, that's all there is to it. Upper Cutter is better in every tournament scenario.

Kirby's custom sets are usually going to be what I've been saying the whole time, Inhale/Jumping Inhale, Upper Cutter, and then the other two are a matter of preference. Maybe occasional ice breath.

I also think this idea sucks, but it's not really the fault of the idea, it's the fault of nintendo making customs so incredibly obnoxious to unlock. Oh, and set up, since you can't set up customs on the Smash section, sigh.

 

[Iko MattOrr]

Final cutter is the only long range attack of Kirby. I use it a lot. It may be worse than upper cutter, but with upper cutter you are forced to get close to the opponent (where Kirby is usually weak, especially against big characters like Dedede, except for some ducking tricks that work only for few moves), while using final cutter you have some chances to hit him keeping him at some distance. It sucked in the previous Smash (Melee and Brawl, in 64 it was actually very lame), but in this Smash it's quite effective and spammable. Never played in a tournament though, just online.
The spike is rare and random, it's impossible to use it purposely.

The other custom of B-up is useless because it is stronger and has more range, but the blade doesn't have an hitbox, so you are vulnerable until you hit the ground, and it's very easy to dodge.

 

[Asdioh]

Every time people use final cutter on me in Kirby dittos, I rolldodge into them and punish them. It's so unsafe that I can even punish it with a smash, and Kirby's rolldodge isn't even particularly fast or good. The only time the move is "safe" to use is when your opponent is offstage, and even then it's somewhat unsafe and underwhelming, you're better off going in for the edgeguard, because that is one of the things Kirby is best at.

Plus, the projectile's range is shorter than it ever has been, presumably because they wanted to make Wave Cutter look good in comparison. Even though that move is still one of the worst projectiles in the game.

 

[chaosmasterro]

Sets I like to run are 3333, 2333, and 2231.
I prefer ice breath on match ups with characters with bad copy powers (except sonic).
Characters like ganon and falcon gets wrecked by it.

 

[Iko MattOrr]

Every time people use final cutter on me in Kirby dittos, I rolldodge into them and punish them. It's so unsafe that I can even punish it with a smash, and Kirby's rolldodge isn't even particularly fast or good. The only time the move is "safe" to use is when your opponent is offstage, and even then it's somewhat unsafe and underwhelming, you're better off going in for the edgeguard, because that is one of the things Kirby is best at.

Plus, the projectile's range is shorter than it ever has been, presumably because they wanted to make Wave Cutter look good in comparison. Even though that move is still one of the worst projectiles in the game.

It depends on the situation... I usually use it when the enemy is stunned so he can't dodge it. Since the hitstuns are small in this game, it's hard to use, but I assure you that it can be useful sometimes. It's not just the projectile, it's the whole thing, first the cutter and then the wave that sends the opponent away.
It works well after grabs sometimes, but it depends on the character (for example, if I remember well, it can't be done on Sheik)

EDIT: I would like to play against you sometime... but now I'm a bit busy this week AND I have also to go to the shop and buy Smash for WiiU. Maybe in the next days... if you are interested

 

[Asdioh]

Actually yeah, sometimes I use Final Cutter to continue a combo after I fthrow or bthrow somebody, but every time I do it I think to myself "this probably won't work on a good player" :x and the risk isn't worth the reward.

 

[Unknownkid]

Sorry to break it to you but it really shouldn't work on anybody competent/offline. If you DO manage to land it, that means you could have done the same with Dair, which is generally safer.
Final Cutter simply sucks, that's all there is to it. Upper Cutter is better in every tournament scenario.

Kirby's custom sets are usually going to be what I've been saying the whole time, Inhale/Jumping Inhale, Upper Cutter, and then the other two are a matter of preference. Maybe occasional ice breath.

I also think this idea sucks, but it's not really the fault of the idea, it's the fault of nintendo making customs so incredibly obnoxious to unlock. Oh, and set up, since you can't set up customs on the Smash section, sigh.

Sigh... Nah, it is fine. Thank you for breaking it for me. It doesn't hurt to learn the technique even though it situational. I still use Blade against semi-strong projectiles like Greninja's Water Shuriken and Villager's Gyroid/F-Air. It does not work against full charge shots like Samus' and Wii Fit Trainer's.

I realize Ice Breath might be better against Sonic since the huge hitbox will render his spin attacks useless. I need more testing.

Yes! I don't know why you cannot change Customs in the Smash Section in Wii U when 3DS version had this option. That's silly, Sakurai.

 

[GrnFzzTgr]

I tend to prefer Jump Inhale, Upper Cutter, I tend to leaves the other two alone since their so situational, that and I like being able to come out of stone quickly, when trying to recover from the top with it.

Stone into Upper cutter looked like a potential combo to me too? I dunno, I was practicing mix ups against a computer, so maybe it doesn't count.

 

[chaosmasterro]

Sigh... Nah, it is fine. Thank you for breaking it for me. It doesn't hurt to learn the technique even though it situational. I still use Blade against semi-strong projectiles like Greninja's Water Shuriken and Villager's Gyroid/F-Air. It does not work against full charge shots like Samus' and Wii Fit Trainer's.

I realize Ice Breath might be better against Sonic since the huge hitbox will render his spin attacks useless. I need more testing.

Yes! I don't know why you cannot change Customs in the Smash Section in Wii U when 3DS version had this option. That's silly, Sakurai.

Only reason I don't like using ice breath a lot vs Sonic is because one miss results in being punished. Jumping inhale vs sonic is just lol, and after he gets to a high percent I find myself taking his homing attack for potential kills. For some reason trading hits against his homing attack is not a great idea when you're at a high percent since Kirby will most likely die from it before Sonic.

 

[ryuu seika]

3122 and 3133 are my go to custom setups. I feel as though there are very few situations where you wouldn't want Jumping Inhale and I rather like the new default Hammer Flip due to its unpredictability in terms of release time, air to ground charging transition and manoeuvrability. Wave Cutter and Upper Cutter both have very different uses so the ability to switch between them at will is a must and then the stones are just me toying around really.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

I tend to prefer Jump Inhale, Upper Cutter, I tend to leaves the other two alone since their so situational, that and I like being able to come out of stone quickly, when trying to recover from the top with it.

Stone into Upper cutter looked like a potential combo to me too? I dunno, I was practicing mix ups against a computer, so maybe it doesn't count.

Meteor Stone to Upper Cutter is a true combo, although percents vary. I used it to kill JigglyStep.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

It looks like Kirby's Squak Squad has gotten to work ahead of me. To clarify the project's goals, we're look for up to three critical sets that represent Kirby's general best options across match-ups and further supplemental sets filling up to slot 6 that may represent less popular opinions, team-centric builds, or just very match-up specific options. Slots 7 and 8 are going to be used for 2222 and 3333 so all players can easily explore all of Kirby's custom moves, including the ones that may not be considered useful at this early stage in the metagame. It looks like you guys are well on the way to figuring this all out though, and I'm optimistic Kirby will be well taken care of in this project.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Odd to see the Hammer Flip love.
To me Hammer Bash is the strongest general pick. Hammer Flip has its value, but it's to punish even Laggier moves then Hammer Bash does, or kill on a broken shield.

Leaping Inhale is too good.

Wave/Upper cutter for sure, Upper Cutter being what I'd use more often but Wave is good.

All 3 stones are usable, but meteor stone is the hardest to use to a level of impracticality.

3,2,3,1
3,2,2,1

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

Of the full list of Kirby's Specials:

Inhale
Ice Breath
Jumping Inhale

Hammer Flip
Hammer Bash
Giant Hammer

Final Cutter
Wave Cutter
Upper Cutter

Stone
Grounding Stone
Meteor Stone

The moves I've listed in green are ones I consider either usable or quintessential. As such, the following sets are viable possibilities for Kirby:

1112 1121 1122 1211 1212 1221 1222
3112 3121 3122 3211 3212 3221 3222

Of these, I will always recommend Grounding Stone. It can potentially bury opponents, and its faster transformation back to normal makes it much harder to punish. I find the beginning startup to be negligible in practice (in fact, I don't even notice it and wouldn't even thought it existed if I wasn't informed of it). Thus, we can narrow the list down to:

1112 1122 1212 1222
3112 3122 3212 3222

I believe those should be our allowed 8 sets for Kirby. In particular, I find 3122 to be the MVP of these.

• Jumping Inhale gives Kirby more range in an attempt to swallow opponents (noticeably so compared to the shorter range of Inhale in Smash 4). More efficient as well when attempting a Kirbycide.
  
• Hammer Bash, while it isn't as glorious as Brawl's Hammer was, is a good kill move and has more utility in what it can punish than Kirby's smashes.
• Wave Cutter is much faster overall than Final Cutter, has slightly farther range, and can't be reflected or absorbed. Its missing initial hit gives it less spacing in Team Battles, but comes out as more efficient in 1v1.
• Grounding Stone is an upgrade to Stone for the reasons I mentioned above.

In using this set, Kirby is left with less window for punishment in being as mobile as possible. Kirby's air speed is sluggish, which is exactly why it's important for Kirby to be able to return to the ground as quickly as possible with Wave Cutter and Grounding Stone. Hammer Bash is a solid move overall, and Jumping Inhale makes attempts to swallow generally more manageable compared to having to be touching the opponent at the beginning of the suction.

Edit: I've generally seen that the standard for this project is normally supposed to go as 6 custom sets, sets 7 and 8 as 2222 and 3333, and 9 and 10 being exclusively imported movesets. So unfortunately, I think we aren't allocated 8 custom movesets as the OP would imply.

 

[GrnFzzTgr]

Why grounding stone? I used to like the move, but any knock back from a follow-up is reduced.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

Why grounding stone? I used to like the move, but any knock back from a follow-up is reduced.

Like I said, Grounding Stone is better for returning to the ground with less opportunity for the opponent to punish you if you miss. Grabs have always been the bane of using Kirby's Stone, which is exactly why having full control of Kirby as soon as possible is much preferred. Burying an opponent if you successfully hit them is just icing on the cake.

I should also mention that the faster transition out of Stone allows for more mix-ups in being able to transform back in the air with less reaction time for the opponent, further making it harder to punish Kirby.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Hammer Bash also increases your recovery (like we needed it). HB + Jump.
It's just more utility FLip doesn't have.
I don't understand the flip love, that's just me I suppose.
Oh and final cutter is poop.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Why in the world do you think Upper Cutter is bad? It's one of the best Up-B customs in the game.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

Why in the world do you think Upper Cutter is bad? It's one of the best Up-B customs in the game.

Perhaps I never gave it enough of a chance, but I always found the fact that you do no damage on the way back down to be less than ideal. It puts you at more risk if you use it as an alternative to the Stone in returning to the stage quickly. Plus, most of my experience with Final Cutter has me dealing damage on the way down or with the projectile/shockwave. It seems like Kirby has better options for dealing vertical knockback than his Up Special, anyhow.

Are there any videos you can show me of Upper Cutter being put to use in ways Up 1 or 2 aren't as good at? I genuinely want to know why it's worth considering.

 

[GrnFzzTgr]

Upper Cutter makes a pretty decent KO move, koing at decent %'s when in the air, It's also a pretty nice finisher for a a combo string, it can be used to stage spike enemies when you're in an off stage battle with them. @ Aunt Jemima and I often find ourselves fighting off stage, trying to trump each other and stage spike one another. It's also an excellent, speedy recovery, with some decent height and it snaps to the ledge.

Also for grounded stone, you can be punished more easily when trying to turn into stone because it talks longer to turn into stone. That's not very conducive to recovery.

 

[Unknownkid]

Perhaps I never gave it enough of a chance, but I always found the fact that you do no damage on the way back down to be less than ideal. It puts you at more risk if you use it as an alternative to the Stone in returning to the stage quickly. Plus, most of my experience with Final Cutter has me dealing damage on the way down or with the projectile/shockwave. It seems like Kirby has better options for dealing vertical knockback than his Up Special, anyhow.

Are there any videos you can show me of Upper Cutter being put to use in ways Up 1 or 2 aren't as good at? I genuinely want to know why it's worth considering.

Asdioh made a video about Upper Cutter potential - http://youtu.be/yquMqKNNuS4

I'm little lost in couple of factors. You do not believe Giant Hammer useful but Grounding Stone and Wave Cutter are? I barely catch a grounded opponent (let alone an competent player) with Stone. Only time I guess gets with Stone is in the air. Unless of course you perform Grounding Stone, break free while the opponent tries to grab you then you do it again. It is slow but if you manage you make it work, I guess it has potential.

Wave Cutter... interesting. First off, it can be reflected and pocketed. I know because I spend hours in lab against CPU Villager. If it can cancelled out projectile, it will offer something but I am not seeing it. Can you post a video about Grounding Stone and Wave Cutter potential?

Overall, I like your analysis. Just a side note. We will have 6 custom sets not 8. Custom Slot 7 and Custom Slot 8 will be pure 2222 and 3333 for testing purposes.

 

[Asdioh]

Let me make it clear since it's almost 2015 and people still don't understand

Kirby's final cutter has always been awful because of its slow startup, slow projectile, and laggy ending. It is one of the easiest moves to punish in all 4 smash games. High risk, low reward.

Wave cutter is worse because of the lack of hitbox, much worse recovery, and the projectile is countered by rolldodging in just as easily as final cutter.

Upper cutter is godlike because just the EXISTENCE of this move makes people fear for their stock when they're above you. Think about the fear of sonics upair after he upthrows you, or diddys upair after he downthrows you. Think about the way you become afraid when little macs ko punch is ready. Upper cutter is a kill move that covers a LOT of distance VERY quickly. And it's disjointed, something kirby badly needs. Oh and it's amazing for recovery too.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

Asdioh made a video about Upper Cutter potential - http://youtu.be/yquMqKNNuS4

I'm little lost in couple of factors. You do not believe Giant Hammer useful but Grounding Stone and Wave Cutter are? I barely catch a grounded opponent (let alone an competent player) with Stone. Only time I guess gets with Stone is in the air. Unless of course you perform Grounding Stone, break free while the opponent tries to grab you then you do it again. It is slow but if you manage you make it work, I guess it has potential.

Wave Cutter... interesting. First off, it can be reflected and pocketed. I know because I spend hours in lab against CPU Villager. If it can cancelled out projectile, it will offer something but I am not seeing it. Can you post a video about Grounding Stone and Wave Cutter potential?

Overall, I like your analysis. Just a side note. We will have 6 custom sets not 8. Custom Slot 7 and Custom Slot 8 will be pure 2222 and 3333 for testing purposes.

Oh wow. I definitely did not give Upper Cutter enough of a chance. Though I stand by preference of Wave Cutter over Final Cutter, I can definitely see why you guys like Upper Cutter. That combo potential is definitely worth some considering.

Like I said before, my primary use of Stone comes as a quick mobilization tool, the average case scenario being that I am not landing on the opponent, but I am able to return to the safest point of the stage as soon as possible. The best case scenario, actually landing Stone on the opponent, is a secondary to Stone's utility. If you undo Stone in the air in the middle of your fall and either Stone again or follow up with a down-aerial, that's when Stone has offensive potential on top of being a mobile move. That said, Grounding Stone benefits the former if missing the opponent in its quicker end-transformation time, while the latter of actually hitting the opponent becomes a brand new albeit uncommon opportunity.

As for Giant Hammer, it has better results with less consistency. Speaking in terms of a 1v1 setting, I'd rather use the more mobile variants of Kirby's Hammer. Not saying that Giant Hammer is useless, but rather, requires a much higher degree of skill to use efficiently.

That, I did not know. Again, I primarily use Kirby's Up Special as a way to give Kirby a more threatening presence and a mix-up from Stone. It doesn't cancel projectiles, but the shockwave is immediately more threatening than Final Cutter's projectile on Omega stages. It doesn't have an objectively better usage over Upper Cutter in closer observation, but that is for the reason that the two moves function as complete opposites. Wave Cutter is a compliment to Stone and the better option for "downwards recovery" compared to Final Cutter, while Upper Cutter acts as a killing move and a more efficient upwards recovery. Unfortunately, I can only speak from my own experience, as there aren't any videos with custom Kirby movesets that show these moves in practice.

I got that much and updated my first post a bit earlier. It's just my intent to help us narrow down the best custom movesets for Kirby and hopefully learn from you guys as much as you might from me. That said, I suppose the choice of Wave Cutter versus Upper Cutter becomes one of direction in a given moveset: Do you allow for greater unpredictability or better aerial kill potential? Improved downwards or upwards momentum? Between Kirby's multiple jumps and Stone, he already accels in both, so the question becomes what better fits the player's mindset. All I can say for sure is that on Final Destination variants, either of Kirby's custom Up Specials are better to use, with Wave Cutter being essentially an upgrade to the default Final Cutter.

All of that said, I would now nominate 1122, 1132, 3122, and 3132 in the top 4 of our custom movesets, at the very least on Omega stages. In stages like Battlefield and other stages where platforms are present, I might instead suggest ##13 or ##33 or close variants thereof, due to how Final Cutter/Upper Cutter and Meteor Stone each have greater applications using said platforms compared to their variants.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Let me make it clear since it's almost 2015 and people still don't understand

Kirby's final cutter has always been awful because of its slow startup, slow projectile, and laggy ending. It is one of the easiest moves to punish in all 4 smash games. High risk, low reward.

Wave cutter is worse because of the lack of hitbox, much worse recovery, and the projectile is countered by rolldodging in just as easily as final cutter.

Upper cutter is godlike because just the EXISTENCE of this move makes people fear for their stock when they're above you. Think about the fear of sonics upair after he upthrows you, or diddys upair after he downthrows you. Think about the way you become afraid when little macs ko punch is ready. Upper cutter is a kill move that covers a LOT of distance VERY quickly. And it's disjointed, something kirby badly needs. Oh and it's amazing for recovery too.

Except Wave Cutter can actually Kill by the Edge, 15% disjointed. Low Commitment (though telegraphed) edgeguard. Final Cutter doesn't bring that to the table, neither are attractive to use in neutral.

 

[Asdioh]

Except Wave Cutter can actually Kill by the Edge, 15% disjointed. Low Commitment (though telegraphed) edgeguard. Final Cutter doesn't bring that to the table, neither are attractive to use in neutral.

Hmm I guess that's true, but people will prefer to recover low, where the projectile can't hit them. It might be good against characters with bad recovery, but I haven't seen it ko before like 130%. It also makes kirby's recovery worse, the lack of horizontal range and hitbox is really noticeable. Upper cutter is too much to pass up I swear.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Hmm I guess that's true, but people will prefer to recover low, where the projectile can't hit them. It might be good against characters with bad recovery, but I haven't seen it ko before like 130%. It also makes kirby's recovery worse, the lack of horizontal range and hitbox is really noticeable. Upper cutter is too much to pass up I swear.

Recovery is boosted by Hammer Bash to compensate.
I prefer Upper Cutter as well, but Wave is still decent. I think Final cutter is garbage.

 

[GrnFzzTgr]

Hammerbash leaves Kirby too open, why are you using it for recovery?

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

I'm in agreement with this one, actually. Considering how recovery is far from an issue for Kirby and chances are he will be KO'd outright rather than left for too far a recovery, why is Hammer Bash even being mentioned? It has none of the horizontal utility of Brawl's Hammer, and it shares the lag time of Luigi's Down Special with none of the height the latter gives. If I recall correctly, an uncharged Smash attack does nearly the same amount as a Hammer Bash on the ground as well, and Kirby's side smash comes out faster than the hammer does.

In hindsight, I'm surprised I considered Hammer Bash to be a decent option earlier... Maybe I'm just fuzzy on what it provides...?

 

[GrnFzzTgr]

Any time I end up using the hammer, it's usually an accidental input. I have hammer bash as my hammer custom, but only because I know I'm prone to accidentally pulling it out instead of using another special.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

So this is what I've taken away from this.

Upper Cutter is the go-to option for Kirby on up special and represents a large improvement for the puffball, most significant option to have consistent access to. Wave Cutter has a non-trivial contigent who like it as an option and thus it needs to be easily available, but very few like default Final Cutter.

Jumping Inhale is pretty much the go-to on neutral as an upgrade from the default Inhale. Ice Breath is mostly poor but has niche match-up utility against certain foes with poor copy powers and thus should probably be included on one supplemental build.

The default Hammer Bash is mostly preferred by team Kirby, but there's a non-trivial contigent that rather like Hammer Flip. Giant Hammer is not a very popular option.

The main thing I'm unclear on is Stone preference. I know when I was toying with Kirby I wasn't entirely clear on the pros and cons of each Stone type; I ended up using mostly Grounding Stone but not with very good reason. Does anyone have any strong opinions on what Stone is best?

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

The main thing I'm unclear on is Stone preference. I know when I was toying with Kirby I wasn't entirely clear on the pros and cons of each Stone type; I ended up using mostly Grounding Stone but not with very good reason. Does anyone have any strong opinions on what Stone is best?

I'm of the strong opinion that Grounding Stone is the best, especially in Omega stages. I'll quote my previous excerpts explaining why.

Of these, I will always recommend Grounding Stone. It can potentially bury opponents, and its faster transformation back to normal makes it much harder to punish. I find the beginning startup to be negligible in practice (in fact, I don't even notice it and wouldn't even thought it existed if I wasn't informed of it).

Like I said, Grounding Stone is better for returning to the ground with less opportunity for the opponent to punish you if you miss. Grabs have always been the bane of using Kirby's Stone, which is exactly why having full control of Kirby as soon as possible is much preferred. Burying an opponent if you successfully hit them is just icing on the cake.

I should also mention that the faster transition out of Stone allows for more mix-ups in being able to transform back in the air with less reaction time for the opponent, further making it harder to punish Kirby.

Like I said before, my primary use of Stone comes as a quick mobilization tool, the average case scenario being that I am not landing on the opponent, but I am able to return to the safest point of the stage as soon as possible. The best case scenario, actually landing Stone on the opponent, is a secondary to Stone's utility. If you undo Stone in the air in the middle of your fall and either Stone again or follow up with a down-aerial, that's when Stone has offensive potential on top of being a mobile move. That said, Grounding Stone benefits the former if missing the opponent in its quicker end-transformation time, while the latter of actually hitting the opponent becomes a brand new albeit uncommon opportunity.

One set should accommodate Meteor Stone, however, for its better usage on platformed stages like Battlefield. Considering how 3333 will be an option by default and that it actually has a decent selection in being paired with Jumping Inhale and Upper Cutter, however, having an additional set just for Meteor Stone may not be necessary. Grounding Stone is a pure upgrade of regular Stone, I find, and should therefore be the default Down Special of choice for most of our sets.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

So this is what I've taken away from this.

Upper Cutter is the go-to option for Kirby on up special and represents a large improvement for the puffball, most significant option to have consistent access to. Wave Cutter has a non-trivial contigent who like it as an option and thus it needs to be easily available, but very few like default Final Cutter.

Jumping Inhale is pretty much the go-to on neutral as an upgrade from the default Inhale. Ice Breath is mostly poor but has niche match-up utility against certain foes with poor copy powers and thus should probably be included on one supplemental build.

The default Hammer Bash is mostly preferred by team Kirby, but there's a non-trivial contigent that rather like Hammer Flip. Giant Hammer is not a very popular option.

The main thing I'm unclear on is Stone preference. I know when I was toying with Kirby I wasn't entirely clear on the pros and cons of each Stone type; I ended up using mostly Grounding Stone but not with very good reason. Does anyone have any strong opinions on what Stone is best?

Default Stone is good for punishing recoveries that are fast but travel vertically, such as Marth, Link, and Captain Falcon. Meteor Stone is good for punishing recoveries that travel large distances but are slow, such as Villager, R.O.B. and Olimar. I'm not so sure about Grounding Stone, as I never use it.

 

[chaosmasterro]

I really have to see a video of someone using grounding stone to their advantage. I'm in denial how I can incorporate it into my game with the start up being so long.

 

[GrnFzzTgr]

Not to mention it doesn't do very good shield damage, it's easy to shake out of until high percents at which point you might as well use something else, and knock back on the powerful moves it sets up to hit with, is greatly reduced. We also have better options for building up damage. Stone and Meteor stone are much better over all.

 

[chaosmasterro]

Also meteor stone is surprisingly good at punishing dash attacks because using the move on the ground instantly places you in the air. It's best to use it when they are around mid high percentages since at low percentages you can get punished if they do not get knocked far enough.

 

[Unknownkid]

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Woah! Relax, Asdioh! Your build is going to be in the game. It most likely the no. 1 custom set.

snip

Fair enough. I completely understand your reasoning. After messing with Grounding Stone for awhile, I guess its not that bad. I advise you to not use Wave Cutter with Meteor Stone.

I can sort of see why you think Giant Hammer requires more expertise than Hammer Flip. However, let me make it simple for you.

• Giant Hammer has super armor after the first spark of the charge.
  
• You can jump while charging.
  
• It takes 5 seconds to fully charge the hammer (Hammer Flip is only 3 seconds).
  
• Recoil Damage Stops at 100%.
  
• Only the Startup is slow - The rest of the swings (uncharged, mid charged, and full charged) are as fast as Hammer Flip.

The only way to beat Super Armor is Grab/Command Grab. From here it is just mind games. You want your opponent to whiff out anything but a grab. If you think they are going to grab, you jump. It is very situational setup but if both of you are on your last stock messing with chance doesn't hurt. I have perform this several times among friends. They still wouldn't learn haha.

Anyways, if really doesn't matter if Giant Hammer is added or not. I will still have Hammer Flip. I will have less fun shenanigans with it. I believe Hammer Flip takes more skill to land the charged hit since you can be hit while charging. Meh, to each its own.

The main thing I'm unclear on is Stone preference. I know when I was toying with Kirby I wasn't entirely clear on the pros and cons of each Stone type; I ended up using mostly Grounding Stone but not with very good reason. Does anyone have any strong opinions on what Stone is best?

It comes down to preference, matchup and playstyle. Personally, I believe Stone overall the best. Transform both in and out of Stone is quick and you are invulnerable during second half of the transformation process. Kills Standing Mario at 112% and Jumping Mario 95%. Best against good vertical recovery.

Grounding Stone has a slow transformation at the beginning but a quick one at the end. Kills Jumping Mario at 126%. If Opponent is buried, they have 3-8 seconds to break out depending the percentage. Level 9 CPU can break at in 4 seconds with 120%. Buried seems to decrease launch potential making kills a little bit hard to achieved. Normally, Uncharged Up Smash kills Mario around 120% but once buried he need to be around 155% to die. Thankfully, you have 3 seconds to charge your smash moves or Hammer Flip. Hammer Bash doesn't cut it (145%) and Giant Hammer is too slow because of its 2 second windup. I guess if you happen to buried someone, do D-Air into Smash Attack to make most of the attack.

Meteor Stone has a normal transformation at the start but a really slow one at the end. Kills Standing and Jumping Mario at 145% on the stage. However, off stage, its pretty much a Spike. Highly advise to use Upper Cutter with it. Best against the characters with long, slow distance recoveries like freakin' Villager.

 

[t!MmY]

I would like a link to the thread being discussed. (I'll probably go find it for myself but a link would still help those who come after me).

Also, I'm in favor of Final Cutter and Giant Hammer. Stone is a volatile use varying on the match-up and circumstance.