Official Standard Custom Moveset Project Initial Release

[kraven202]

This was a community service.

Thanks for fixing it i bet it was a lot of work, sorry it was like that i was on my phone at work so i got a little lazy with it. I already fixed the original one too.

I really hope you guys can pull this off at Evo, but please keep in mind if you don't and EVO is a train wreck because of customs they will never be allowed in any way. That's why i suggested that plan b using 2222 and 3333 which would at least ensure customs see some light and not be total chaos since its easier to set up and adapt to it as well.

 

[19_]

I...huh? I'm seriously shocked to hear this response from you guys. If this happened to you for the first time in a set, you'd probably have no idea what the cause was. It's a programming error, not some cool exploit like wavedashing. Again, if YOU knew about something like this, then there'd be no issue. But what about the other innocent competitors who would be blindsided by something like this?

The guy said it in the video himself broken in doubles but not singles. Since you know this info suggest you educate others about this tech so they don't have to suffer for it. As a new player I will be keeping this in mind.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Is this glitch persistent between stocks? That's literally the only thing I can think of that could make it more broken in doubles than insta-charged Buckets or Double Pocket shenanigans.

And it relies on an unpopular doubles character to begin with.

This character will definitely become popular if this glitch is permitted in doubles, make no mistake. And as far as the video had explained, Olimar needs to only keep those reflected pikmin alive. He's free to throw away any others that are not amplified. Successfully getting this exploit to work will pretty much guarantee you a win unless the match in question is your very first minute of playing Olimar ever and not being able to land his attacks. Other than that possibility, skill becomes irrelevent when this glitch is part of the equation, and to take my contrast to wavedashing and turn it into a comparison, I'm once again stunned.

Forgive me, for I know that I am being "difficult" here. I agree that knowledge of matchups is pretty much everything in Smash 4 competitive. However, I was almost certain the followers of this project understood that there would have to be a line drawn somewhere. And if gaining access to moves that either 1 hit KO or shield break through a programming error is permittable by your standards, then just where is the line? I'm dying to know.

I mean, I look at this video, and I'm reminded of the theoretical "insta-win custom moves" that opponents to this project have conjured out of fantasy. How they would never follow Smash 4 competitive if something like that came out of the custom move project. And the only answer I'm hearing boils down to "git gud"?

Yes, this will be patched by Nintendo at some undisclosed point in the future. No, that does not excuse the existence of the tech until then. Information sharing is a start, but it won't solve the issue that is present with this tech. It still exists, and it will stand as an obstacle to custom moves. I'm really, really hoping that this project does not brush off this development out of blind denial. You may be working towards the implementation of a custom moves meta, but I'm working towards the general existence of Smash 4 as a competitive game. We NEED to talk about things like this.

 

[Neoleo21]

I actually think we might have to ban this regardless, if the opponent makes a mistake with the reflector at all with pikmin, Olimar can order tackle for the absurd power buff and in a 2 stock meta, I don't think there's going to be enough time to prevent olimar from killing a second time.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

And if gaining access to moves that either 1 hit KO or shield break through a programming error is permittable by your standards, then just where is the line? I'm dying to know.

If you must know, I play against this guy in Marvel all the time. I'm pretty used to losing to some of the most obnoxious **** you can think of; my line is basically drawn at "things that cause the game to literally crash."

Here's the thing, though: I'm actually in agreement with you to some extent. At a glance, this looks like it could be completely ridiculous in doubles. I actually think that a ban would be entirely justifiable in doubles. But I want to see it in practice to be sure. I'm all about "showing your work" when it comes to game balance. You'd have to show me a low-effort tournament win by Olimar against opponents who know what to expect in order to completely convince me.

 

[TheASDF]

I actually think we might have to ban this regardless, if the opponent makes a mistake with the reflector at all with pikmin, Olimar can order tackle for the absurd power buff and in a 2 stock meta, I don't think there's going to be enough time to prevent olimar from killing a second time.

How is someone gonna make a mistake with the reflector? Just don't hit the button. It's not that hard. Definitely should not be banned in singles. (I could maaaaaybe see that being the case for something as large as EVO, but that goes more into the general problems of having customs at a large tournament like that.)

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Quick question - Are there any resources for Tournament Organizers to quickly and adequately convey the process for using Custom moves, as well as a possible list of Custom moves that can be browsed by Tournament Goers the day of the tournament? I'm looking for some sort of Flyer/Infographic that can be kept at the venue. Anything at all would be really helpful, but I'm also prepared just to do some explaining and have a Set-Up dedicated for testing.

I'll be running my Custom's Tournament on the 28th! I'll report back on the result.

 

[warriorman222]

UMVC3 deal with baby-read infinites left and right. Melee deals with easy-read 0-deaths left and right. I think Smash 4 can deal with one doubles-exclusive OHKO. In singles, just ditch your reflector, or use the worst multiplier. Th elower the multiplier, the less OPness there is. Still, this shouldn't be banned in singles, and should go like this in doubles.

1. Ban Order Tackle: The most straightforward, simple method.
2. Ban Olimar, like Japan did with G&W. Quite simple.
3. Ban the exploit. But how?
3.1. Ban a combination of a reflector, and Order Tackle. things like Reflector Void are fine.
3.2. Let things continue normally. If the exploit happens, ditch the Pikmin. Test it on a shield. If it does massive damage or breaks, it's there.
4. Do nothing.

Tell me what you would pick. I think 1 would open the gate to banning all customs. 2 is just MK all over again. 3.1 is my pick, because people won't like 3.2 nor 4., as they seem to do/actually do nothing about the situation.

Also, I made a GFAQs thread on this. Discuss.

Also I only side with 3.1 if this actually gets too bad. Until then, 4.0.

 

[Raijinken]

This character will definitely become popular if this glitch is permitted in doubles, make no mistake. And as far as the video had explained, Olimar needs to only keep those reflected pikmin alive. He's free to throw away any others that are not amplified. Successfully getting this exploit to work will pretty much guarantee you a win unless the match in question is your very first minute of playing Olimar ever and not being able to land his attacks. Other than that possibility, skill becomes irrelevent when this glitch is part of the equation, and to take my contrast to wavedashing and turn it into a comparison, I'm once again stunned.

Forgive me, for I know that I am being "difficult" here. I agree that knowledge of matchups is pretty much everything in Smash 4 competitive. However, I was almost certain the followers of this project understood that there would have to be a line drawn somewhere. And if gaining access to moves that either 1 hit KO or shield break through a programming error is permittable by your standards, then just where is the line? I'm dying to know.

I mean, I look at this video, and I'm reminded of the theoretical "insta-win custom moves" that opponents to this project have conjured out of fantasy. How they would never follow Smash 4 competitive if something like that came out of the custom move project. And the only answer I'm hearing boils down to "git gud"?

Yes, this will be patched by Nintendo at some undisclosed point in the future. No, that does not excuse the existence of the tech until then. Information sharing is a start, but it won't solve the issue that is present with this tech. It still exists, and it will stand as an obstacle to custom moves. I'm really, really hoping that this project does not brush off this development out of blind denial. You may be working towards the implementation of a custom moves meta, but I'm working towards the general existence of Smash 4 as a competitive game. We NEED to talk about things like this.

I'm going to side with what several others have said. Much like Piston Punch (which I finally got around to experimenting with to moderate but not significant success), I'll wait until I see it in significant and effective use before I make a call. Much like the old Zamus infinite on Robin, and the other few infinites and whatnot, there's a very large gap between possibility and practicality. If it becomes so significant that players who barely use Olimar can jump into a doubles match and win off of it, then yes, by all means, ban it (I'm all for banning controllable glitches, honestly, I just don't expect the larger community to agree). But if it's something unlikely, no reason to ban it.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I can appreciate the inventiveness of comparisons to other fighting games like Marvel and Melee, however, you have to see the difference between infinites, and simple 1-hit KO moves. With infinites, you're exploiting something that was consciously programmed into the game. Not to mention, your skills at initiating and maintaining the infinite are also called into question. Furthermore, Smash 4 is not the same as those aforementioned fighting games. No no, I'm not saying you shouldn't make comparisons to begin with. I just think it's unwise to use these comparisons to justify unrelated mechanics. Not being able to deal with infinite bull**** is standard in Marvel. But Smash Bros. is a series that includes DI, ledge options, gimps and edgeguards, and a host of other factors that have unique counter play and can be escaped. We never took kindly to the concept of infinites, and I don't expect we'll take kindly to 1 hit ko moves which are (once again) not the same concept.

I think it is the responsibility of the custom moves project to further investigate this tech. Not glance for a moment and say "hmm, maaaaybe it's a problem for doubles, but I don't see an issue worth discussing". So as far as what should be done...

Until then, 4.0.

No, I definitely think the regular contributors need to start informing all smashers in every outlet they can think of, to expedite the patching of this glitch. Furthermore, you should come as close as possible to a unanimous decision on what to do about it. I'm in favor of a doubles ban for combinations of reflector and order tackle. And as for a singles ban...That's a much tougher call. We're still a community that can't decide on 2 stock or 3 stock, and I've been getting polarizing opinions from every person I've shown the video to so far. If we decide that amplified pikmin are okay for singles, we'd better have actual reasons and statistics to go on, not just five second opinions.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

With infinites, you're exploiting something that was consciously programmed into the game.

The combo in the video I posted only works because the player is completely circumventing the in-game system that is supposed to keep infinite combos from happening. It's absolutely a glitch.

If we decide that amplified pikmin are okay for singles, we'd better have actual reasons and statistics to go on, not just five second opinions.

You are misplacing the burden of proof. It is your responsibility to prove that it's broken, not ours to prove that it's not.

 

[warriorman222]

I can appreciate the inventiveness of comparisons to other fighting games like Marvel and Melee, however, you have to see the difference between infinites, and simple 1-hit KO moves. With infinites, you're exploiting something that was consciously programmed into the game. Not to mention, your skills at initiating and maintaining the infinite are also called into question. Furthermore, Smash 4 is not the same as those aforementioned fighting games. No no, I'm not saying you shouldn't make comparisons to begin with. I just think it's unwise to use these comparisons to justify unrelated mechanics. Not being able to deal with infinite bull**** is standard in Marvel. But Smash Bros. is a series that includes DI, ledge options, gimps and edgeguards, and a host of other factors that have unique counter play and can be escaped. We never took kindly to the concept of infinites, and I don't expect we'll take kindly to 1 hit ko moves which are (once again) not the same concept.

I think it is the responsibility of the custom moves project to further investigate this tech. Not glance for a moment and say "hmm, maaaaybe it's a problem for doubles, but I don't see an issue worth discussing". So as far as what should be done...



No, I definitely think the regular contributors need to start informing all smashers in every outlet they can think of, to expedite the patching of this glitch. Furthermore, you should come as close as possible to a unanimous decision on what to do about it. I'm in favor of a doubles ban for combinations of reflector and order tackle. And as for a singles ban...That's a much tougher call. We're still a community that can't decide on 2 stock or 3 stock, and I've been getting polarizing opinions from every person I've shown the video to so far. If we decide that amplified pikmin are okay for singles, we'd better have actual reasons and statistics to go on, not just five second opinions.

By do nothing, I mean don't ban it. If someone seems bad but causes no problem, there is no reason to ban it.

 

[Slifer-san]

As a reminder, we already had something similar to OHKOs at the beginning of Smash 4's lifetime in the form of Pikachu and Mr. Game&Watch. And that was without customs. Sure, it might not be as good as amplified pikmin, but its a similar concept. I believe the TOs were able to choose if Pikachu+G&W was banned, so I'd say let them decide again. Until then, theres no need to worry about amplifying in SINGLES.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

You are misplacing the burden of proof. It is your responsibility to prove that it's broken, not ours to prove that it's not.

Do or do not participate. It's your call, of course. I've said all I need to say on the matter. I know you all have an urge to defend custom moves to the last, but avoiding the issue does not remove its existence. Talking about it will.

 

[Pazx]

@ Zapp Branniglenn I too am slightly surprised by the response in this thread. I think some sort of ban in doubles in unavoidable but I have some questions before I voice my opinion on it's singles legality.

Does the glitch only occur when Pikmin are reflected as they are latched/walking past? Is it possible to perform the glitch when reflecting a smash or side special? How easy it to perform on an unknowing opponent (ie does the down special have to be triggered at the exact same time as the reflector?)

 

[LimitCrown]

There probably would have been less complaints about the strategy involving Pikachu and Mr. Game & Watch if Team Attack was disabled because the strategy couldn't be deliberately performed in that case.

On a side note, I still wonder how much custom moves would benefit the game, or if those would balance the game by a significant amount. It seems like only a handful of characters benefit significantly from them.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

The way it appears to work is that Olimar uses the move Order Tackle, the pikmin do the weak attack as they fly back to Olimar, and if that attack gets reflected, the glitch state triggers. It can only happen if Olimar brought the custom whistle that contains this attack and if he happens to use it to hit an opposing reflector (of course, Olimar must be free to act to use Order Tackle, just like any other move). It seems like it would be difficult to trigger in singles (unless your opponent just held out a reflector like Fox's, but that would be dumb even if this glitch didn't exist) but pretty easy in a team format.

If this had to be banned, banning the move Order Tackle is clearly the cleanest solution. It's the smallest thing that can be discretely banned; a tactical ban is messy, and banning the entire character Olimar or all custom moves or anything like that is just excessive as a response to this. The more I think about it, the more I think it's not worth worrying about for now for singles play (the main mode we are very concerned about). This is stupid, but it's also an obscurity and will likely prove impractical to exploit at a high level. My personal perspective is that I'll be significantly more concerned by this discovery when I see some tournament footage of an Olimar player in singles making this a powerful thing; until that time, I'm somewhat dismayed this exists, somewhat relieved it will probably be patched eventually, and very relieved that it seems very unlikely to prove truly powerful given the limitations of activating it. The fact that the Link jab shenanigans are considerably more powerful than this and don't involve custom moves at all is kinda another reason not to worry; I don't think custom moves are inherently subject to a "lower standard" for being problematic than other moves, and it would be hard to convince me that this makes Order Tackle inherently more problematic than all of the other moves in the game.

 

[Nintendrone]

I feel that Order Tackle in and of itself is not problematic. It is only "broken" when reflected, so a simple banning of Order Tackle when there's a reflector in the match would be most effective at banning just the glitch. This would go for doubles and singles, so opponents like Fox will have to opt for their non-reflecting moves if Olimar picked Order Tackle, and Olimar cannot pick Order Tackle if his opponent already picked a reflector. This is the most "fair" solution, imo.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

Nah. If it's in singles, then the opponent has the option to simply not reflect, whether he has a reflector in his moveset or not, so there's no need for a rule there. Smart thing to do is to just pick non-reflecting moves (when possible) if Olimar is the opponent.

 

[Splash Damage]

I think that we should definitely familiarize the community with the glitch, else we'll have this gimmicky set winning pools and advancing mediocre players onward due to an instakill bug. I don't think it's banworthy, as it would essentially limit Olimar in a place where it would limit his effectiveness, especially in a place where the strategy can be used in a non-gimmicky manner.
EDIT: On second thought, I think it should be banned, I was just going off what I read in the thread, and hadn't yet seen the video.

 

[Swoops]

The best solution seems to be just banning order tackle outright, until such time that any glitches associated with it are patched/resolved.

I agree that it may not be applicable in singles, but you be hard pressed to convince me that this couldn't happen by accident in a match with olimar + any character with some sort of reflecting move. You can say that the opponent just needs to not use his reflector. As I understand it the glitch occurs any time pikmin are on the field and order attack is used as a reflector is active and the pikmin come in contact with it. Personally I think it's at the very least competitively unattractive to tell someone their reflecting tool is essentially useless/game breaking in a match up against a projectile harassing character.

The nice thing about customs is that we can ban a specific move easily. Previously, if a move caused a glitch it couldn't just be removed from the equation. It required specifically worded clauses and the glitch could happen any time in a tournament match with the right factors present. Now we can just remove the factor without top much detriment to the game outside of olimar players being sad for a little while lol.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Yeah, I'm on the "ban order tackle" train. Especially because, outside this glitch, it's apparently pretty awful.

 

[MrEh]

Yea according to the Hawaiin players they think sheik is the best with customs on.

Only a few players here think that. Sadly, those very players eventually used Sheik as a (poor) argument to get customs banned here. It was fun while it lasted, but customs are now disallowed at our monthly tournaments.

While most of our community did enjoy customs, the vocal minority eventually started a huge argument against them. While a few of the arguments were fair, most of them were just the typical scrubby nonsense. However, the vocal minority included several high ranking players, so the anti-customs circlejerking was incredibly strong. Customs were eventually banned just to appease said vocal minority.

I'll always remain a strong advocate for customs, and I am proud that the Hawaii community tried customs from the start. I'm just very disappointed that it turned out this way.

I won't let you down; we'll definitely have further polished pre-sets before the start of April given the recent developments.

Here's a freebie.


1311
1211

The more the community talks about it, the more we feel that Bowser's non-Klaw customs will never be used. It's legitimately hard to think of four more sets, since I can't imagine any competent player using them anymore outside of funsies.


Fire Shot
Ridiculously slow and laggy. Hard to use as a zoning tool because the frame disadvantage of throwing out a fireball is really high. Not to mention the fireballs don't even do that much damage or hitstun, so it's not like they pressure your opponent that well even on hit. Fire Shot isn't even used in the Dedede matchup anymore because Bowser can just Nair like a lunatic and it stops Gordos clean. Really bad move.

Fire Roar
Only used for funsies and that's it. While the fire is huge, it fizzles out in a mere second and takes almost 20 seconds to recharge again. That's insanely bad since Fire Roar is flat out unusable unless it's at full charge. There's honestly no realistic reason to run this.

Sliding Fortress
Zero point to using this at all. Startup is doubled compared to regular Fortress, making it a terrible OoS option. Not to mention it does even less damage than regular Fortress. Recovery angle is similar to regular Fortress. Trash move.

Flying Fortress
If Sliding Fortress was bad OoS, wait til you see this piece of crap. While the recovery benefits seem decent, it actually makes your recovery angle even more telegraphed than it was before. Considering that this is Bowser we're talking about, that's saying something. Regular Fortress is ridiculously easy to get hit out of if it doesn't ledge snap immediately, and Flying Fortress has even worse ledge snapping frames. You're forced to recover very low every time, and that just makes you really easy to intercept and get killed. Not even worth considering.

Turbulent Bomb
The recoveries that can be gimped with the wind could have been intercepted with one of Bowser's actual attacks, making this not worth it at all. Not to mention that Turbulent Bomb deals significantly less damage and knockback that regular Bomb, and is much slower. You lose out on one of Bowser's most reliable kill moves for a little bit of wind. Not worth it at all.

Slip Bomb
The lack of a rising hit makes this impossible to hit with. The ability to trip opponents with the shockwave is useless as well, since Bowser is at such huge frame disadvantage that you can't even pressure your opponent after they trip. No use whatsoever.


TL:DR
Klaw customs are godlike. Everything else is trash.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Just ban Order Tackle when teaming up with a character with a Reflector.

Its not a universal glitch, and its very easy to monitor. If the opponent does something to allow Olimar to set this up, that's on them.

 

[popsofctown]

Personally I think it's at the very least competitively unattractive to tell someone their reflecting tool is essentially useless/game breaking in a match up against a projectile harassing character.
.

I spent a year of my life playing against an Olimar sparring partner with a Brawl disc telling me my reflecting tool is essentially useless against that projectile harassing character. I figured out that my counterpicking tool, which was mapped to my downspecial at the moment but later, between games, had much more advanced features, was actually the competitive way of learning how to deal with 20-80 matchups.

You can't go around constantly changing the game whenever there's a bad matchup or difficult strategy. You ban things when they're broken.

There's no reason to ban this in singles until it forces constant quadruple olimar top8's which is pretty insanely unlikely.

Double is whatever. This game wasn't really designed to be played in doubles, I try to care about it as little as possible, and it frustrates me if I do play it. I would advocate banning everything but Order Tackle and default Oil Panic in doubles in hopes of killing doubles interests and getting me tournaments with 2 singles events instead of a doubles and a singles, but I'm sure you'll pick something out with less schaudenfreude and hatred.


EDIT: I accidentally left out that I was playing Zelda, but now my post is like a riddle so I'll leave this at the bottom

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I spent a year of my life playing against an Olimar sparring partner with a Brawl disc telling me my reflecting tool is essentially useless against that projectile harassing character. I figured out that my counterpicking tool, which was mapped to my downspecial at the moment but later, between games, had much more advanced features, was actually the competitive way of learning how to deal with 20-80 matchups.

You can't go around constantly changing the game whenever there's a bad matchup or difficult strategy. You ban things when they're broken.

There's no reason to ban this in singles until it forces constant quadruple olimar top8's which is pretty insanely unlikely.

Double is whatever. This game wasn't really designed to be played in doubles, I try to care about it as little as possible, and it frustrates me if I do play it. I would advocate banning everything but Order Tackle and default Oil Panic in doubles in hopes of killing doubles interests and getting me tournaments with 2 singles events instead of a doubles and a singles, but I'm sure you'll pick something out with less schaudenfreude and hatred.


EDIT: I accidentally left out that I was playing Zelda, but now my post is like a riddle so I'll leave this at the bottom

Now you've got me thinking of potential custom options for Transform.

 

[warriorman222]

Guys, by banning Order Tackle, you open the door to banning any custom move with a glitch, which opens the door to banning all customs, because people won't use the "If customs can be busted, how about defaults" logic, and would rather ban all customs than be proven wrong with that logic.

If it doesn't become a problem, don't do anything. You don't put in unnecessary limits. If it does: Just ban a reflector attack and Order Tackle on the same team. If your opponent does this by accident, it's their fault. Order Tackle isn't useless compared to Pikmin Order, because you can hurt people, and the more damage Olimar gets, the better.

We don't do anything until it causes a problem. Or else, we may as well ban any custom move that is good, because it could cause a problem. And Miis. And every other character in the game. They could cause problems, so ban them too!

 

[popsofctown]

Now you've got me thinking of potential custom options for Transform.

Transform 1: Become Sheik/Zelda
Transform 2: Become the same character as your opponent. Limited duration.
Transform 3: Become a Phantom Warrior with 90 stamina points

 

[Swoops]

You can't go around constantly changing the game whenever there's a bad matchup or difficult strategy. You ban things when they're broken.

There's no reason to ban this in singles until it forces constant quadruple olimar top8's which is pretty insanely unlikely.

It's not really about tough match ups, it's about this being a potentially harmful glitch that we can easily control.

Guys, by banning Order Tackle, you open the door to banning any custom move with a glitch, which opens the door to banning all customs, because people won't use the "If customs can be busted, how about defaults" logic, and would rather ban all customs than be proven wrong with that logic.

If it doesn't become a problem, don't do anything. You don't put in unnecessary limits. If it does: Just ban a reflector attack and Order Tackle on the same team. If your opponent does this by accident, it's their fault. Order Tackle isn't useless compared to Pikmin Order, because you can hurt people, and the more damage Olimar gets, the better.

We don't do anything until it causes a problem. Or else, we may as well ban any custom move that is good, because it could cause a problem. And Miis. And every other character in the game. They could cause problems, so ban them too!

Completely different situations. If you ban Order Tackle, you are still keeping a character and his fundamental play style intact. Every move can be busted, not just customs. People seem to forget that the game developers ALSO developed custom moves. I think that should be our stance and we shouldn't be afraid to oust a single move because, simply put, it's a glitch and we don't want it. Sakurai and Nintendo have already echoed that statement and are completely willing to get rid of bugs.

Stuff like this is probably going to come up regardless. Possibly in tournament. I'd personally rather be proactive and on the front end and just ban it before any anti-custom arguments get any fuel. But that's up to TOs and the creators of this project

Speaking of, @ MrEh could you remember/expand slightly on your top players arguments against customs? At least the well-founded/reasonable ones. I'd personally be pretty interested to hear them.

 

[popsofctown]

It's not really about tough match ups, it's about this being a potentially harmful glitch that we can easily control.



Completely different situations. If you ban Order Tackle, you are still keeping a character and his fundamental play style intact. Every move can be busted, not just customs. People seem to forget that the game developers ALSO developed custom moves. I think that should be our stance and we shouldn't be afraid to oust a single move because, simply put, it's a glitch and we don't want it. Sakurai and Nintendo have already echoed that statement and are completely willing to get rid of bugs.

Stuff like this is probably going to come up regardless. Possibly in tournament. I'd personally rather be proactive and on the front end and just ban it before any anti-custom arguments get any fuel. But that's up to TOs and the creators of this project

Speaking of, @ MrEh could you remember/expand slightly on your top players arguments against customs? At least the well-founded/reasonable ones. I'd personally be pretty interested to hear them.

It's not fair to tell Tommy Smith he can't use Order Tackle to knock DK around the way he knocks his little brother's DK around at home because there's some glitch Tommy Smith has never heard about. For Tommy Smith, Order Tackle IS part of Olimar's fundamental play style. It's cool to discuss what customs seem the most useless and which ones we think are useful and compare notes and copy eachother's sets to try to get ahead but there's an element of style involved in choosing the ones you want, and if someone's style is such that they want to use a move, you should protect their right to use that move to the greatest extent possible.


This is a real baby with the bathwater thing. 1% of projectiles touch a reflector at any point in their lifetime. Your cutting a lot more Smash4 out by telling Olimars they can never use order tackle than telling Foxes not to shine it.

 

[Octagon]

It's not fair to tell Tommy Smith he can't use Order Tackle to knock DK around the way he knocks his little brother's DK around at home because there's some glitch Tommy Smith has never heard about. For Tommy Smith, Order Tackle IS part of Olimar's fundamental play style. It's cool to discuss what customs seem the most useless and which ones we think are useful and compare notes and copy eachother's sets to try to get ahead but there's an element of style involved in choosing the ones you want, and if someone's style is such that they want to use a move, you should protect their right to use that move to the greatest extent possible.


This is a real baby with the bathwater thing. 1% of projectiles touch a reflector at any point in their lifetime. Your cutting a lot more Smash4 out by telling Olimars they can never use order tackle than telling Foxes not to shine it.

Yeah this isn't really a glitch, its just another way to do fantastic attacks with two characters in doubles

 

[MrEh]

could you remember/expand slightly on your top players arguments against customs? At least the well-founded/reasonable ones. I'd personally be pretty interested to hear them.

There were only two arguments that were somewhat reasonable. The rest were not.

1. Hawaii should disallow customs temporarily to help a few of our players better prepare for Apex, which obviously had customs banned. This eventually turned out to be a big farce of an argument, since here we are after Apex and our monthlies still disallow customs. Heh.

2. Allowing customs would make a handful of out-of-state players feel uncomfortable, potentially jeopardizing the chance of having them come out and play at our events. I honestly felt that this was a weak argument, but it wasn't my call to make. It's not like people come to Hawaii for the sole purpose of playing super-duper-competitive Smash anyway. They come out here because it's fun. It's Hawaii for God's sake.

 

[Octagon]

I don't get why there is such heavy debate for customs. They are a part of the game that increase the creativity and depth players put into their characters. Not having them is just lessening the variety and ways to experiment with the characters we love s much. We get to personalize our style even further. Customs at first will detract some players, as does anything new, but after awhile customs will become a staple into the Smash 4 scene if we work together to make this happen. So let's do it

 

[Krysco]

*******?***
^ all characters with reflectors that could be affected by the Olimar glitch with * meaning they can avoid it entirely through use of customs and ? meaning I honestly don't know. In Ness' case his fsmash is a reflector but I'm not sure if that really matters since I can't see a Ness player throwing out an fsmash to reflect a Pikmin and if one does I can see it out right killing said Pikmin.

In an environment where customs are legal it looks entirely avoidable for every character except for poor ol' Fox and R.O.B. (and I guess Ness.). It seems like a nice counter for Olimar honestly. He picks Order Tackle and suddenly his opponent has to fear reflecting and may choose to get rid of it if they can. I'll admit that it's kinda dumb how a character that heavily relies on projectiles/camping has this kinda glitch and how drastic it is though.

I'm on the fence when it comes to the idea of banning the move. On one hand it's largely avoidable since both players have to perform an input and most characters can get rid of their reflectors. On the other hand it makes Olimar's playstyle stronger than it should be since people will fear reflecting his projectiles plus there's the issue that some moves that go from reflector to not-reflector are just bad. We could ban Order Tackle till it gets patched but who knows when that'll happen. I do feel that banning it in doubles may be a good idea but I don't play doubles so I'm not 100% sure.

I guess if I had to give a definite answer I'd say leave the move alone (in singles) for now until it proves problematic in a tournament. Heck, maybe if that video spreads enough Nintendo will notice it (if they haven't already) and they'll patch it.

Edit: Just tested Backward Arm Rotor and it does reflect so Fox and R.O.B. have to have one at all times.

 

[Splash Damage]

I won't let you down; we'll definitely have further polished pre-sets before the start of April given the recent developments.

Here's one:
Little Mac
2213
2:This one has already been covered many times; it's simply the better option compared to the Neutral and Stunning Straight Lunges.
2:Again, I have covered this one already in a previous post. While not necessarily superior to the default Jolt Haymaker, it does have more utility and more setup options than the default Haymaker. Additionally, it has much more MU usefulness than the third option, which can only really be used to recover.
1:This one is a tough choice and can be optionally interchanged with the second option(I believe that is the Tornado variant), but the Rising Uppercut is a much better anti-air, mixup, and even combo option for a more offensively oriented playstyle. And, as I have said, I am of the firm belief that the third option is broken and borderline cheap.
3:This one is, again, interchangeable with the default(Said set is already included in the six presets you've chosen), however such a powerful counter is not quite as important to Little Mac. Given his other fast and reliable options, he already has punishes for laggy moves and charging smashes covered. Having the ability to more reliably escape combos with the one-frame earlier activation and recover more easily against projectile users is much more useful, especially in Mac's currently bad MUs.

Should this set replace any current ones, I think a possible candidate for being cut would likely be 2313, as the third Side-B option is very sparingly needed and only useful in rare MUs. Additionally, the only real use it has is to recover, and the Dash Counter which also appears in this set is already there being used for recovery, making the 2313 set rather clunky and uncommon to pick for Macs.

 

[popsofctown]

Rob's Backwards Arm Rotor does reflect projectiles for a very brief period at the beginning of the move. Technically if there's a reflector with amplifier 0 it might not do the glitch (since it seems to be applying the moves multiplier, like 1.5 or 1.3, a few dozen times till the pikmin is super buff, but 1.0 would never get you anywhere).

I'm pretty sure Ness's bat has an area where it reflects, but does not damage, so I think pikmin walking back could be reflected.

I don't know much about the other characters, but I know for Mario that Shocking cape destroys projectiles to retain the antiprojectile philosopy, and sometimes you can use it in a situation where you think it will destroy a projectile or hit your opponent and you're not sure which but it's good. Not sure how much sometimes because I don't use it much but it's something to think about. It probably kills everything that's not yellow

 

[DunnoBro]

There were only two arguments that were somewhat reasonable. The rest were not.

1. Hawaii should disallow customs temporarily to help a few of our players better prepare for Apex, which obviously had customs banned. This eventually turned out to be a big farce of an argument, since here we are after Apex and our monthlies still disallow customs. Heh.

2. Allowing customs would make a handful of out-of-state players feel uncomfortable, potentially jeopardizing the chance of having them come out and play at our events. I honestly felt that this was a weak argument, but it wasn't my call to make. It's not like people come to Hawaii for the sole purpose of playing super-duper-competitive Smash anyway. They come out here because it's fun. It's Hawaii for God's sake.

Hopefully once everyone else legalizes customs you guys can have yours back.

Xanadu actually seems to be in favor of legalizing customs for the main tournament now, no side. Though I think a few side tournaments would be best so we can more slowly get used to them.

Also the hardy pikmin + reflector might need to be banned for doubles, but not singles. It's akin to brawl ike using quickdraw against inhale.

Spoiler

Don't do it you god damned idiot.

 

[warriorman222]

Completely different situations. If you ban Order Tackle, you are still keeping a character and his fundamental play style intact. Every move can be busted, not just customs. People seem to forget that the game developers ALSO developed custom moves. I think that should be our stance and we shouldn't be afraid to oust a single move because, simply put, it's a glitch and we don't want it. Sakurai and Nintendo have already echoed that statement and are completely willing to get rid of bugs.

Stuff like this is probably going to come up regardless. Possibly in tournament. I'd personally rather be proactive and on the front end and just ban it before any anti-custom arguments get any fuel. But that's up to TOs and the creators of this project

Speaking of, @ MrEh could you remember/expand slightly on your top players arguments against customs? At least the well-founded/reasonable ones. I'd personally be pretty interested to hear them.

Banning Order Tackle removes a useful special from play. But if Order Tackle was the defualt, people wouldn't think of banning it, because it "gets special treatment for beign default". It's only being considered for banning because it's a custom.

If a move is good on it's own, ban the exploit. Let it still be used for the sake of the character(s). If it's not good on it's own, ban the exploit. Let it die off naturally, and let it be an option for those who still want to use it.

By banning it, you give the bandwagonniest anti-custom argument gallons of fuel. Customs are broken! We banned one for a game-breaking glitch. Ban the combination, and you show that you know the custom isn't broken, rather the combination is. And Order Tackle isn't broken on it's own, and hte combination is arguably not broken.

You keep the fundamental playstyle intact, but banning a combination does the same, without causing an uproar of dissent over customs.

 

[Neoleo21]

If banning a single move leads to banning them all, than I'll side with "Don't ban in singles, ban the combo". Honestly the arguments against customs are quite sad because they revolve around playing a less interesting game.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Banning Order Tackle removes a useful special from play. But if Order Tackle was the defualt, people wouldn't think of banning it, because it "gets special treatment for beign default". It's only being considered for banning because it's a custom.

If a move is good on it's own, ban the exploit. Let it still be used for the sake of the character(s). If it's not good on it's own, ban the exploit. Let it die off naturally, and let it be an option for those who still want to use it.

By banning it, you give the bandwagonniest anti-custom argument gallons of fuel. Customs are broken! We banned one for a game-breaking glitch. Ban the combination, and you show that you know the custom isn't broken, rather the combination is. And Order Tackle isn't broken on it's own, and hte combination is arguably not broken.

You keep the fundamental playstyle intact, but banning a combination does the same, without causing an uproar of dissent over customs.

To be perfectly honest, this just seems like saying, "Don't give the anti-AGW crowd the honest figures for this year's temperatures, they'll lie about it and conflate it like morons!" It's a lose-lose proposition. The fact is that these people are either morons or have a strong motivation against customs (*cough* Zer0 *cough* M2K *cough*). It doesn't matter what you give them, they'll spin it the way they want.