Official Standard Custom Moveset Project: Ike

[Amazing Ampharos]

Take note, this part here's a copied and pasted message! But please read it anyway:
As we begin to approach the deadline for creating 10 custom sets for each character, we believe it's time to make sure that your conversations are staying on track, and that we evaluate the progress of your discussions. As such, we have prepared a preliminary lineup of custom sets based on what your conversations have led to. Feel free to adjust and update this list as necessary. After all, we want each character to be brought to their best potential!

We are going to begin to create the finalized sets on March 17th, so make sure you conclude any discussion you're having by then.

Preliminary Custom Sets:
Ike:

2222, 2122, 2212, 2112, 2232, 3222, 3122, 3212, 3232, 3112

This is just san's list. I believe for the most part it represents what you guys have been asking for and for that matter san is pretty credible when it comes to Ike. There is a discussion I believe important for you guys to have in these last 10 days though, and that's the Counter discussion. I know it's Ike's least important special, but I feel like it has been a bit overlooked so far in these discussions and that there may be Ikes who are not satisfied with the situation. If you all feel that just standardizing on Paralyzing Counter and running with it is best, well, that's great and we can do that, but please give that decision some thought before we wrap things up.

 

[Mario766]

How important is the Unyielding Blade switch for the Luigi match-up?

I dunno which set in particular would be most important to take out to put in the Unyielding Blade set-up, as there's not many sets that are very redundant..

2122 is pretty important for people who want to keep the standard Quick Draw for the better horizontal movement while keeping the Tempest/Paralysis Counter tech, same with 3112...though I think more people would run 3122. 3112 might be most likely to hit the bucket to change it to 3312 or 3322

 

[Nidtendofreak]

As I said in the other topic, I feel that at least a few sets should have Counter. For example, 3112 should be 3111 imo: it lets people basically play vanilla Ike with the upgraded Eruption. Same with 2112 being 2111.

For Unyielding Blade, I feel it would have to be one of the 2XXX sets that got the change. With Unyielding Blade's crappy recovery range, we're going to need Aether Drive with it. Maybe scrap 2232 and make it 2322 or 2321? Could also make it be the one set that has Smash Counter for the few that want it occasionally and have it be a 2323 set? Smash Counter was theorized mainly for against like Bowser, and Unyielding Blade ain't exactly bad against him either.

 

[ProBeans]

I think 3121 or 3122 definitely need to be in. I didnt see it in the official list on that custom project main thread so I really want to post it here.
312X is what's important. I havent tested the paralyzing counter enough personally (and i know smash sucks)
so i dont know if its strictly better than regular counter in some cases.
but i definitely use regular counter to gimp the **** out of recovering characters (ness, ike, shulk, pikachu, luigi, etc)
so i prefer 3121, can we get that one? there isnt a single regular counter on there out of the 10...

 

[Mario766]

Close Combat is just so much better than regular Quick Draw. Do you have a reason for 3121 over any of the list?

 

[ProBeans]

Close Combat is just so much better than regular Quick Draw. Do you have a reason for 3121 over any of the list?

Furious Eruption for the better edgeguard, cause if covers pretty high up, even if you do sacrifice some damage near the bottom of it (less charged at least).
Quick Draw over Close Combat because I noticed that with Close Combat you lose all momentum at the end of the dash. Sure, it's a little faster and safe on shield, but the way I use quickdraw is to get in and out, often using the sliding momentum to be aggressive. You lose that with CC.
2Aether cause Ike definitely needs that.
Regular Counter because there isn't a guaranteed followup with paralyzing counter, and you can really screw over some recoveries with regular counter (pikachu, ness, luigi, ike, marth/lucina/shulk sometimes).

 

[Mario766]

Isn't the counter thing less of a problem since most of those edgeguards already covered with Eruption? Shulk is free if you're in position and time it properly, like with Falcon/Ganon. Marth/Lucina sweet spots the ledge super quick so I don't get much luck there.

 

[ProBeans]

Well Shulk has more room to mix it up, with his jump monado up-b going so damn high. And he can do it safely early too cause his sword hitbox will always get you. So not THAT free. Cfalcon and Ganon tho lol.
But yeah I don't have too much of a problem with paralyzing counter. I mostly use it when recovering anyway, and paralyzing could be better in those situations.
Quick Draw though....I need dat.

 

[PyroTakun]

I'll have to play around with it a bit more, but I'd like to see a 2211 set. Maybe replace the 2212?

 

[Oblivion129]

I actually like regular Eruption. It seems to have better KO power than Furious Eruption, but I still like all 3 of his neutral Bs.

For recovery I honestly think Aether Wave is the best even if it has shorter range. It's the best one offensively and for stage control, and since it's faster in the air, it's harder for people to hit the vulnerable part of regular Aether at the top of the attack.

On Close Combat I agree with mostly everyone.
About counter, though, I haven't tried the difference. Is paralyzing counter the fastest and that's why people like it? If that's the case, I agree with it.

 

[Pipmonchan]

Why isn't regular Counter considered in this sets? Am I missing something from ParaCounter?

 

[san.]

Why isn't regular Counter considered in this sets? Am I missing something from ParaCounter?

Both counter and para counter are pretty situational. Default counter can stuff a surprising number of recoveries, though. Personally, I'm more comfortable with default counter, but I rarely use it in general.

I think I have to make too many calculations when using aether 2 and 3 for recovery. I think in the end, I'm just most comfortable with regular old aether. I was having a lot of fun with 2211 and 3211.

 

[Romans]

I also support 2211 and 3211. Heck, even 1211.
Original Aether allows you to hug the stage tight for safer recoveries most of the time. Aether Drive can get you caught underneath, and is harder to sweetspot with. Plus you loose the pullback meteor potential. As for Aether wave, it has nice superarmor, but once again lacks meteor potential, and the lower vertical recovery prevents you from yolo dairing and bairing super deep. Which, let's be real, is totally worth it.

As for Down B, the original Counter has a large activation frame, making it easier to use. Paralyzing counter has some utility except the activation frame is smaller with just as much endlag, making it harder to actually pull off. Smash is great if someone is charging a smash attack in your face. Great way to end the stock. You have a lot less aerial usability though.

For Side B, Close Combat is safer altogether as you won't get gimped by people intentionally running into you (I know you can aether afterwards, but sometimes you are still too far to make it back), and you go farther faster, allowing you to run past shields, making it semi-shield safe. Plus the roofing potential in the air. Overall, I think it's just superior.

As for Neutral B, Eruption has the best actual kill power, KOing pretty consistently around 90-100. Furious Eruption has more hit reliability, but doesn't start killing till closer to 140-150, which personally just seems too long for me.
Tempest has some fun gimping shenanigans from as far as center stage. This is the only tossup in my opinion, with each option having great utility.

 

[Elixar]

I also support 2211 and 3211. Heck, even 1211.
Original Aether allows you to hug the stage tight for safer recoveries most of the time. Aether Drive can get you caught underneath, and is harder to sweetspot with. Plus you loose the pullback meteor potential. As for Aether wave, it has nice superarmor, but once again lacks meteor potential, and the lower vertical recovery prevents you from yolo dairing and bairing super deep. Which, let's be real, is totally worth it.

As for Down B, the original Counter has a large activation frame, making it easier to use. Paralyzing counter has some utility except the activation frame is smaller with just as much endlag, making it harder to actually pull off. Smash is great if someone is charging a smash attack in your face. Great way to end the stock. You have a lot less aerial usability though.

For Side B, Close Combat is safer altogether as you won't get gimped by people intentionally running into you (I know you can aether afterwards, but sometimes you are still too far to make it back), and you go farther faster, allowing you to run past shields, making it semi-shield safe. Plus the roofing potential in the air. Overall, I think it's just superior.

As for Neutral B, Eruption has the best actual kill power, KOing pretty consistently around 90-100. Furious Eruption has more hit reliability, but doesn't start killing till closer to 140-150, which personally just seems too long for me.
Tempest has some fun gimping shenanigans from as far as center stage. This is the only tossup in my opinion, with each option having great utility.

I'm with this, I haven't been able to see where all the initial hype about para-counter was, Normal counter has worked just fine for me and is more reliable due to longer active frames. I personally run 1211, and would occasionally mess around with 2211 if it wasn't for there not being a 2211 set for the suggested sets (literally every suggested set had para-counter) I've also gone off Aether drive because the inability to move left and right in the air kinda sucks, even wave is better than drive at that point. And I could see furious eruption boosting some rage for Ike to net those roll-read up smashes, but I personally prefer standard for its improved killpower for accuracy and tempest works somewhat, also a surprisingly useful recovery option for that little bounce it gives you in the air.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Tempest is godly. Walk-off stage and gimp. No matter what their HP is, it takes only one botched Up B to send them flying.

Close Combat is amazing because it has a HUGE hitbox that goes behind Ike. One of the worst problems while playing as Ike is that everyone wants to cross you up and stay in your hurtbox. They want to stay behind you so you can't shake them off. Close Combat takes them out. While it's not strong on its own, it's useful for juggling. When they land, you can keep doing it and rack up around 15% if they don't learn the first two times.

Paralyzing Counter leads into USmash. I think this goes without saying.

But the fact that Close Combat makes a difference is due to the offense Ike gains. He no longer has to play scared defense and worry about being punished for everything. It opens up one of his approach options (keyword: OPTIONS, something Ike sorely lacks) and takes down projectiles. Even matchups like Luigi can be managed or turned around in an instant simply because he chased you with Fireball or went for another random Cyclone. In this case, the Paralyzing Counter works wonders to finish him off with USmash.

 

[WorstGanonWorld]

Paralyzing Counter leads into USmash. I think this goes without saying.

At what % does it stun someone long enough for an upsmash?

 

[san.]

At what % does it stun someone long enough for an upsmash?

It seems to scale based on your opponent's damage and partially from your own rage.

I think I'll have to buckle down and learn how to use close combat / aether drive effectively. I think that's the best road for improvement in custom tournaments. I can use them fine normally, but when it comes to a tense setting, I'm just not familiar enough with it yet to use it intelligently.

 

[Romans]

I think I'll have to buckle down and learn how to use close combat / aether drive effectively. I think that's the best road for improvement in custom tournaments. I can use them fine normally, but when it comes to a tense setting, I'm just not familiar enough with it yet to use it intelligently.

I think aether drive, in theory, is great for increasing his recovery diagonally, preventing you from getting gimped as easily by things like sonic's spring (my brother is a sonic main so... I have nightmares of this).
Unfortunately, I have seen so many Ike's get caught underneath the stage from aether drive. There are so many situations when your character ends up directly underneath the stage (such as going for a deep off the ledge bair, a low percent nair knockoff from someone like villager, etc) that aether drive is unable to recover from.

I'm really interested to see you try and make aether drive competitively viable.
Personally, I haven't been able to see its success, so I'm going to stick to the vanilla.

 

[san.]

Holding back when performing aether drive vastly decreases the chances of getting stuck underneath the stage unless you're already almost underneath. On the flip side, holding forward vastly increases the chances. In a tense situation, you may forget to do it right, though.

 

[Renegade TX2000]

ikes customs just depends on who you're fighting. If it's a custom battle, Here comes ikes tempest for my lil mac.

 

[WorstGanonWorld]

It seems to scale based on your opponent's damage and partially from your own rage.

I think I'll have to buckle down and learn how to use close combat / aether drive effectively. I think that's the best road for improvement in custom tournaments. I can use them fine normally, but when it comes to a tense setting, I'm just not familiar enough with it yet to use it intelligently.

Yeah that´s what I thought, thanks. You probably won´t get an upsmash out of it until late percents

About CC, Ike can hit the opponent twice with it at the end of the move ( first hit right before the endanimation kicks in and the 2nd hit at the start of the endanimation). It deals 7% in total and sends them diagonally behind you. It could have been a great setup for bair or something if not for the endlag of CC :/. I guess most guys here know it already but I thought I´d throw it in anyways. Maybe you found a way to work with it?

And I can´t get to like Aether Drive too much. I don´t like that you can´t change the angle at which Ike throws Ragnell. Default Aether may not have much horizontal range but you can move it to the left/right a bit. It just feel really weird using it. Will probably just have to get used to it.

 

[Oblivion129]

Aether wave or regular Aether is the way to go, imo. Aether wave gives good stage control and since it's faster on recovering to the ledge, it'll be harder to get hit out of it. Meanwhile, regular Aether seems like the most reliable recovery option.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

At what % does it stun someone long enough for an upsmash?

I've had success at 85%.

Aether wave or regular Aether is the way to go, imo. Aether wave gives good stage control and since it's faster on recovering to the ledge, it'll be harder to get hit out of it. Meanwhile, regular Aether seems like the most reliable recovery option.

Which is still relatively dangerous when you have characters like Donkey Kong chomping at the bit ready to Dair you.

 

[Oblivion129]

I've had success at 85%.



Which is still relatively dangerous when you have characters like Donkey Kong chomping at the bit ready to Dair you.

Yeah it's always pretty dangerous, but at least it'll be harder to hit. Might help against Mario's FLUDD and Greninja's UpB. Haven't tried it yet.

 

[Elixar]

Could we at the very least free up a few more of our options for regular counter, splitting our options into more of a 4 ParaCounter and 4 regular?

 

[Romans]

Could we at the very least free up a few more of our options for regular counter, splitting our options into more of a 4 ParaCounter and 4 regular?

I second this

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Aether wave or regular Aether is the way to go, imo. Aether wave gives good stage control and since it's faster on recovering to the ledge, it'll be harder to get hit out of it. Meanwhile, regular Aether seems like the most reliable recovery option.

How is it better than Aether Wave?

 

[Oblivion129]

How is it better than Aether Wave?

You mean the reliability part? Because you can move it slightly horizontally and it has a little more vertical reach. But Aether Wave grabs the edge faster so that's a plus. And I like the stage control you can create with Aether Wave's projectile.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

You mean the reliability part? Because you can move it slightly horizontally and it has a little more vertical reach. But Aether Wave grabs the edge faster so that's a plus. And I like the stage control you can create with Aether Wave's projectile.

Since Aether's slow speed and predictable angle have a knack for screwing you over, I feel I'll be right at home with Aether Wave. Not like Ike's recovery is stellar to begin with.

 

[Aquasition]

I myself am a fan of 1212. Here's why:

N-B 1: Admittedly, I can't really take advantage of N-B 2 because it can be air dodged, and N-B 3, while bigger, does more self-damage, and has less KO power. Plus, if you're standing at the edge, the blast radius increase won't make too much of a difference.

Side-B 2: Safer than Side B 1, can be used to distrupt and juggle foe, is quick.

Up B 1: While Up B 2 is useful should you be sent at a low angle, I myself like walking off the ledge against some recoveries sometimes, so I prefer the vertical recovery, and Up B 3, while quick, lacks a fair amount of recovery power, considering it lacks both horizontal and vertical reach compared to Up B 1.

Down B 2: I feel like this move is more rewarding vs Jabs. Also, even if your foes doesn't stay stunned long enough for an U-Smash, they should be stunned long enough for a u-tilt/ftilt, which is lethal at higher %

Also, I know nobody uses equipment, but if you did, what equipment would you put on Ike?

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

I myself am a fan of 1212. Here's why:

N-B 1: Admittedly, I can't really take advantage of N-B 2 because it can be air dodged, and N-B 3, while bigger, does more self-damage, and has less KO power. Plus, if you're standing at the edge, the blast radius increase won't make too much of a difference.

Side-B 2: Safer than Side B 1, can be used to distrupt and juggle foe, is quick.

Up B 1: While Up B 2 is useful should you be sent at a low angle, I myself like walking off the ledge against some recoveries sometimes, so I prefer the vertical recovery, and Up B 3, while quick, lacks a fair amount of recovery power, considering it lacks both horizontal and vertical reach compared to Up B 1.

Down B 2: I feel like this move is more rewarding vs Jabs. Also, even if your foes doesn't stay stunned long enough for an U-Smash, they should be stunned long enough for a u-tilt/ftilt, which is lethal at higher %

Also, I know nobody uses equipment, but if you did, what equipment would you put on Ike?

The problem with Aether (normal) is you're going to come across players who are so used to the Ike matchup that they know exactly how to take down all of your recovery options. Donkey Kong can not only trounce and kill you for using Side B with his Bair, but he can Dair you easily no matter what angle you hit Aether at. So your recovery options are going to be lacking one way or the other.

Aether Wave might not have the height or horizontal distance, but it goes high enough for strictly vertical usage (use Side B to take care of horizontal distance anyway) and fast enough to put you out of sufficient danger against Mario's FLUDD when timed correctly.

 

[Oblivion129]

The way I see it:
Eruption or Tempest (Depending on the opponent's recovery)
Close Combat
Aether or Aether Wave
Counter or Paralyzing Counter (Depending on the opponent's recovery because regular counter works against a few)

 

[PyroTakun]

I'm far more in favor of regular counter over paralyzing. Not saying I want it on every set, but it definitely needs to be on more.

And it seems that we're all in agreement that there needs to be 2211 and 3211 sets.

 

[Baggy]

Very, very late on the customs wagon, but my biggest gripe is counter 2.

I'd take counter 1 over counter 2 because it can gimp a good number of recoveries, has guaranteed AND multiplied damage, and I'm pretty sure it's considerably more active than counter 2.

Aether drive is great to me because it gives Ike a little less predictable recovery. Also I think it's much more useful in neutral than his normal b since you can catch people with it's range, like a ghetto projectile. If you catch them in a majority of the hits, it does 20+ damage

Tempest is pretty funny, but I feel like the other eruptions are more of a threat. It seems harder to hitt/gimp people when they recover low. Could just be me though. Maybe it could be used in neutral since the charge time is shorter and it could throw people off.

I think side b 2 is great as you can harass falling opponents and stay on people a bit better than the default quickdraw, though the recovery'll take getting used to. I feel like the recovery time is lower if you do it in the air rather than completely on the ground.

I haven't unlocked quick draw 3, but seeing as its in none of the builds, is it that bad? And counter 3 seems to be terribly slow to me so I can understand that. Still would like to see more counter 1 builds though.

I'm not well versed with customs so all of this could be wrong. Has anyone been using any builds in online/tourney play? I'd be willing to play some online matches to test them out with someone.

 

[Renegade TX2000]

I think Paralyzing counter is great vs characters that hit multiple times with the majority of their moves...

Pit, Dark Pit, Shiek, Duck Hunt... More but those are the example characters.

 

[-RedX-]

Dunno if this was mentioned but Furious Eruption lacks the lower hitbox that Eruption has. If Ike's standing on BF's platform and uses Furious Eruption, it won't hit anything below him while regular Eruption will. This is kinda important since I don't think Furious Eruption can hit the window of vulnerability when characters are grabbing the edge.

 

[san.]

Dunno if this was mentioned but Furious Eruption lacks the lower hitbox that Eruption has. If Ike's standing on BF's platform and uses Furious Eruption, it won't hit anything below him while regular Eruption will. This is kinda important since I don't think Furious Eruption can hit the window of vulnerability when characters are grabbing the edge.

Yeah, I didn't notice this until the other day. The bottom part of the blade won't hit aerial opponents. Luckily, it's still good enough to hit characters out of the ledge vulnerability, especially when it's charged.

A lot of my thoughts have changed a little bit concerning which customs I prefer, but at this point I'm pretty comfortable using most sets.

For example, Ike can easily spike Fox through battlefield's platform with normal eruption, but he struggles to even hit Marth, who is noticeably taller, with furious eruption unless it's fully charged.

Builds with the best synergy imo:

X13X - aether3 needs QD1's better distance for recovery
X22X - both are just good+popular
X32X - quick draw 2 needs aether2's diagonal recovery
X11X - So close to default that it may not need its own space that bad
X21X - Aether1 is good with anything.

Because close combat and diagonal aether quite good, it can fit in any combination such as X23X, X12X, etc. I now think that all eruptions and counters have their uses.

I still think that I like the default counter best, though. Smash counter is actually very good against smash attacks and over-committing aerials. I learned that Ike's counter has poor base knockback, but good knockback growth. This means that you aren't going to kill anyone at low, even middle %, but once they're near 70-90+, smash counter will kill even on weak attacks, and counter may kill at 120+. Then there's paralyzing counter that may kill even earlier for worse active frames.

 

[-RedX-]

It's really hard to be switching between Aether2 and the other two imo. I can't risk recovering poorly/SDing simply because I'm so used to recovering with defaults(Aether3 is somewhat similar to default in terms of recovery). Kudos to those who can manage that.
I also noticed Close Combat has a lingering hitbox when Ike brakes so it's actually very easy to hit ledge getup options except for ledge jump.

Dunno what to think about counters but if you look at the top tiers, Default and Paralyzing are probably better than Smash vs those fast and mobile characters. I haven't seen Smash Counter successfully retaliate very much against those weaker but quicker moves so I tend to stray away from it.

 

[san.]

The lowest downward hitbox only seems to be for the uncharged-partially charged eruption. The powerful version of eruption doesn't hit as low.

Unfortunately, the lingering hitbox on close combat is only active on the ground. It's good that there is one at all, though.

I hardly ever use counter except to punish some recoveries and smash attacks. I'm trying to learn how to use it in a more creative manner, though Ike doesn't really need to do that. Since counter isn't really central to my gameplan, anything works, even if its use is only niche. Even so, smash counter isn't good enough to take up a general use slot.

It's good against characters who commit more, even if it's occasionally blocked. Normal counter wouldn't have killed anyways. It'll barely see much use if it's used, something like once a set at most. It'll definitely be terrible against fast characters in most situations, but even they have some laggy attacks that they need to rely on. Sheik probably can't avoid punishment if one of her smash attacks is countered. Normal counter is too weak to turn that into a kill.

Those kinds of underused moves are better for locals where you can delete the 9th and 10th slots and replace them with your own.

 

[Genome Squirrel]

anyone have any videos or guides showcasing what tempest (nuetral 2) can do?