Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
I agree that PS1 is probably more neutral if for no other reason than the fact that anything it does can be waited out and it'll eventually return to normal.
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Official Stage Legality Discussion
- Thread starter Mic_128
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The Milk Monster
Smash Champion
Yeah I agree with you Sonic.
Out of Lylat, Delfino, PS1, and Castle, I would say them being in Neutral should be in this order:
PS1 should be neutral
Lylat could be neutral but debatable I suppose.
Delfino same as Lylat, but a little less neutral cause those **** walkoffs.
Castle shouldn't be neutral cause those walk off's hurt.
My own opinion though.
Out of Lylat, Delfino, PS1, and Castle, I would say them being in Neutral should be in this order:
PS1 should be neutral
Lylat could be neutral but debatable I suppose.
Delfino same as Lylat, but a little less neutral cause those **** walkoffs.
Castle shouldn't be neutral cause those walk off's hurt.
My own opinion though.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
you can wait out delfino's walkoffs pretty easily at least. castle seige has the biggest walkoff problems, but is the most neutral of the 4 otherwise.
in my opinion all 4 of these stages are virtually identical when it comes to how viable they are... which really sucks because it leaves no clear "best" all of them have different things about them that take away their neutrality making it very much charcter specific.
in my opinion all 4 of these stages are virtually identical when it comes to how viable they are... which really sucks because it leaves no clear "best" all of them have different things about them that take away their neutrality making it very much charcter specific.
The Milk Monster
Smash Champion
Yeah they all have pro's and con's to balance them out.
deepseadiva
Bodybuilding Magical Girl
They all really swing toward Starter, but you can rank them by how much they affect the match.
PS1 has temporary walls, which really only affect damage percent.
Lylat has tilting, which really only affects recoveries, which then only affects stocks. Stocks are more important than damage - I think we can all agree.
So once again we rank them by what they affect:
PS1 - damage
Lylat - stock
Castle Siege - stock
Delfino - damage and stock
We have a winner.
The Milk Monster
Smash Champion
Agreed.They all really swing toward Starter, but you can rank them by how much they affect the match.
PS1 has temporary walls, which really only affect damage percent.
Lylat has tilting, which really only affects recoveries, which then only affects stocks. Stocks are more important than damage - I think we can all agree.
So once again we rank them by what they affect:
PS1 - damage
Lylat - stock
Castle Siege - stock
Delfino - damage and stock
We have a winner.
People usually wait out the walls too.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
yeah. as a zelda main, having Lylat put up in tournies as the 5th neutral rather than PS1 just irks me because I have to ban it everytime
infomon
Smash Scientist
Are you using the SBR's recommended stage striking system??? Then you could just strike Lylat, but ban something else you don't like.
deepseadiva
Bodybuilding Magical Girl
Hylian recently made a few stagelists.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5847267#post5847267
I consider list b to be the "best." Notice how the fifth starter is Pokemon Stadium.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5847267#post5847267
I consider list b to be the "best." Notice how the fifth starter is Pokemon Stadium.
Deoxys
Smash Lord
I've got to say, I cannot understand picking FD as more fair than Yoshi's Island, nor can I understand excluding Distant Planet (seriously, wtf is the argument for this?), Yoshi's Island Melee, Luigi's Mansion, and Skyworld from list B. Also, list C is just complete garbage IMO.
Deoxys
Smash Lord
I think list C is the best list mostly for the nice and liberal neutral list. The idea with such a list is that you are using a neutral strike-out system and know the matchup you're getting into ahead of time. For instance, if you pick R.O.B. and the opponent picks King Dedede, you know you need to strike Delfino and Castle Siege so you will never actually have to face those walk-offs in the first match. You do have to rethink what the starters actually mean; it's NOT a list of the most "fair" stages in any arbitrary matchup. Instead, it's the set of stages that, when a strike out system is applied, will most consistently produce a fair outcome (with diversity being preferred when it doesn't hurt fairness). Can anyone construct a strike-out scenario where having nine stages is obviously less fair than having five? I'm unable to think of such a situation, and I'd love to hear of an example.
Skyworld sucks. Mr. Game & Watch can down throw through the clouds which is really stupid and completely screws some characters (mostly Olimar and Ivysaur), the stage is a massive techfest way moreso than Luigi's Mansion, and more than any other stage it super emphasizes vertical recovery which is very unfair to some characters far moreso than pretty much any stage with a reasonable argument to be a counterpick is unfair to characters.
I do agree with you about Distant Planet; that stage seems like a super obvious counterpick, and I don't really understand why so many people like to get rid of it. I suspect people are just super unfamiliar with the stage since I sometimes hear complaints about the monster which I would estimate to be about as likely to kill someone in a randomly selected match as the balloon on Smashville. I suppose there is the walk-off, but given that it's so limited, you can really easily avoid ever being chained off it.
Yoshi's Island Melee and Luigi's Mansion are stages I agree with you on too. They seem like decent enough counterpicks though I can say both are generally obnoxious (but obnoxious doesn't mean broken).
Anyway, the other counterpicks that differ on the two lists are as follows: Corneria, Port Town Aero Dive, Mario Circuit, Green Greens, Green Hill Zone.
Corneria is a pretty popular choice to want to allow. It's really not that offensive.
Port Town Aero Dive is.... an unfortunate level. If you ignore the cars, it's one of the best levels in brawl, but the cars are there. I'm really split internally over whether it's a fair stage; sometimes it's fantastically stupid and unfair, and other times it's wonderful. I wouldn't generally argue against allowing it, but I also am not going to care if it's banned. Of course, if it's allowed, I would counterpick it; it's pretty awesome for Mr. Game & Watch.
Mario Circuit is a stupid level, but is it really that unfair? The only feature it has that is actually unfair would be the walk offs (the cars are a total joke of a hazard). Hylian's solution was to just not use someone King Dedede can chainthrow there; that seems reasonable to me, but I guess a lot of people are really opposed to that sort of thing. I'm not convinced it needs to be banned either way.
Green Greens really isn't that bad at all. Keep the blocks broken if your character needs to do so, and you can avoid the narrow range of wall infinites that actually work here (most of them are likely to break the blocks!). Really, as long as you are careful, this stage isn't bad at all.
Green Hill Zone sucks because of the checkpoint; it should probably be banned. Still, it's relatively inoffensive as far as bad stages go (it's not like WarioWare or anything). I'd prefer to see it gone, but I'm not going to dismiss the list because of it.
Of course, I'm quite curious about what breaks water stalling on the Pirate Ship. If that pans out, that level would actually be fair instead of completely broken, and that's always nice.
I'm also really not convinced that Onett is so bad, but everyone seems to really hate that stage a lot. My personal experienes on the stage suggest that the ease of avoiding the walls is fair relative to the punishment you get inflicted if you do get stuck on a wall is fair because the cars save you from instant death in wall infinites, but I try to be openminded so seeing cases of matches on that stage that are completely broken by the stage would be interesting.
Anyway, how is list C garbage? If you think playing on varied stages is a valued part of the game (which is not a universal opinion), I'm not sure how you could help but instantly dismiss A as the worst list and then probably be ready to quibble at specific stages between B and C.
Skyworld sucks. Mr. Game & Watch can down throw through the clouds which is really stupid and completely screws some characters (mostly Olimar and Ivysaur), the stage is a massive techfest way moreso than Luigi's Mansion, and more than any other stage it super emphasizes vertical recovery which is very unfair to some characters far moreso than pretty much any stage with a reasonable argument to be a counterpick is unfair to characters.
I do agree with you about Distant Planet; that stage seems like a super obvious counterpick, and I don't really understand why so many people like to get rid of it. I suspect people are just super unfamiliar with the stage since I sometimes hear complaints about the monster which I would estimate to be about as likely to kill someone in a randomly selected match as the balloon on Smashville. I suppose there is the walk-off, but given that it's so limited, you can really easily avoid ever being chained off it.
Yoshi's Island Melee and Luigi's Mansion are stages I agree with you on too. They seem like decent enough counterpicks though I can say both are generally obnoxious (but obnoxious doesn't mean broken).
Anyway, the other counterpicks that differ on the two lists are as follows: Corneria, Port Town Aero Dive, Mario Circuit, Green Greens, Green Hill Zone.
Corneria is a pretty popular choice to want to allow. It's really not that offensive.
Port Town Aero Dive is.... an unfortunate level. If you ignore the cars, it's one of the best levels in brawl, but the cars are there. I'm really split internally over whether it's a fair stage; sometimes it's fantastically stupid and unfair, and other times it's wonderful. I wouldn't generally argue against allowing it, but I also am not going to care if it's banned. Of course, if it's allowed, I would counterpick it; it's pretty awesome for Mr. Game & Watch.
Mario Circuit is a stupid level, but is it really that unfair? The only feature it has that is actually unfair would be the walk offs (the cars are a total joke of a hazard). Hylian's solution was to just not use someone King Dedede can chainthrow there; that seems reasonable to me, but I guess a lot of people are really opposed to that sort of thing. I'm not convinced it needs to be banned either way.
Green Greens really isn't that bad at all. Keep the blocks broken if your character needs to do so, and you can avoid the narrow range of wall infinites that actually work here (most of them are likely to break the blocks!). Really, as long as you are careful, this stage isn't bad at all.
Green Hill Zone sucks because of the checkpoint; it should probably be banned. Still, it's relatively inoffensive as far as bad stages go (it's not like WarioWare or anything). I'd prefer to see it gone, but I'm not going to dismiss the list because of it.
Of course, I'm quite curious about what breaks water stalling on the Pirate Ship. If that pans out, that level would actually be fair instead of completely broken, and that's always nice.
I'm also really not convinced that Onett is so bad, but everyone seems to really hate that stage a lot. My personal experienes on the stage suggest that the ease of avoiding the walls is fair relative to the punishment you get inflicted if you do get stuck on a wall is fair because the cars save you from instant death in wall infinites, but I try to be openminded so seeing cases of matches on that stage that are completely broken by the stage would be interesting.
Anyway, how is list C garbage? If you think playing on varied stages is a valued part of the game (which is not a universal opinion), I'm not sure how you could help but instantly dismiss A as the worst list and then probably be ready to quibble at specific stages between B and C.
The Milk Monster
Smash Champion
100lulz, guess I'm not a pro.
Agreed. Frigate Orpheon can suck though if you need to use a tether recovery on the right side...
The Milk Monster
Smash Champion
I like list c the best on Hylian's list, but I would have to say B would be the choice most TO's would pick, least to complain about, most balanced, etc.
C does have a few awkward stages in Counterpick (Green Hill Zone, Port Town, Corneria, etc.)
I vote B.
C does have a few awkward stages in Counterpick (Green Hill Zone, Port Town, Corneria, etc.)
I vote B.
deepseadiva
Bodybuilding Magical Girl
I'm really still undecided on where I am on Skyworld. The points you make about G&W, Ivysaur, and Olimar don't really mean much. A counterpick is supposed to give characters advantages and disadvantages. I think the ultimate question it comes down to is how much of an advantage/disadvantage can we give a character?
If we look at some of the banned stages, and ask why they are banned, we can come up with a list of tactics we have decided are unfit for competitive play.
75m
Big Blue
Bridge of Eldin
Flat Zone 2
Hanenbow
Hyrule Temple
Mario Bros.
Mushroomy Kingdom I
Mushroomy Kingdom II
New Pork City
Rumble Falls
Shadow Moses
Spear Pillar
The Summit
Wario Ware
Circling, incredibly easy chaingrab KOs, or infinites. For each of the banned stages, we can attribute at least one of those - the exception being the stages banned for overpowered hazards.
Skyworld doesn't have any of those.
It does allow for infinites, and the reason the SBR gives us for it's legality is "it's risky because your close to the blastzone." I don't understand their logic.
I like the stage also. But the cars give you too little warning for such a powerful hazard. It should be banned.
Several characters can chaingrab. And the solution about switching characters goes against what the SBR has said. Why not just ban the stage and not ever have that problem...?
Then why not have Shadow Moses legal? But I like Green Greens, I can't really defend it, but I'd keep it legal.
I was thinking the slopes where the major problem here. The checkpoint moves around, and isn't incredibly powerful.
Water stalling will probably meet the same fate as ledge stalling - whatever that'll end up being.
Otherwise I agree with a lot of what you said. I'm just using your post to lay somethings out and ask some questions. I'd like some SBR members to actually answer some questions for once...
I'm actually most interesting in seeing someone demonstrate via example the added fairness of a five stage neutral list versus a nine stage one in a strike out. At this point, I don't see any disadvantage at all to allowing more stages as starters if you're committed to a neutral strike-out system.
Well, I can't claim to know what the SBR's reasoning was, but Flat Zone 2's hazards are not really as bad as people say. Chef form does really sad damage, it's really easy to avoid the guys on Oil Panic form (they only counter), and even on Lion form the hazards confine themselves to very specific positions. The real problem with the stage, as Xiivi and I discovered experimentally, is that it would be, if allowed, the best Snake counterpick in the game. The hazards independently are not threatening enough to be a stage ruining problem, but when combined with Snake grenade camping and detonating a few very strategically placed mines, the stage becomes completely unreasonable as Snake proves stupidly dangerous and stupidly difficult to approach. Other "obstacle course" characters like the Links get similar help as well. The main reason it needs to be banned is because it just gives too big of advantages to characters who employ a particular playstyle; it's not because it's actually all that radical (the stage is far more normal of a course than most of the people who make jokes about how much it sucks despite never playing on it would believe).
Also, Rumble Falls and Big Blue don't really meet the criteria you listed for stages needing to be banned. Granted, those stages are secretly pretty reasonable (I don't bother arguing for them anymore because people just hate them way too much to ever give them a chance), but it's a flaw in the criteria you described regardless.
You also have to consider the whole picture. I didn't say Skyworld has to be banned only because Mr. Game & Watch has that super abuseable down throw. I also cited how much of a techfest the stage is and how the stage really has a completely overwhelming bias toward certain types of recoveries. The stage has a bunch of other problems too ranging from big to small and from obvious to subtle. You really have to take it all as one package. All of it together makes it seem pretty clear to me at least that Skyworld really needs to be banned.
The Ice Climbers allow for infinites too. Allowing for infinites shouldn't be an instant disqualification for anything ever. With any threat a stage particularly allows to exist, you have to evaluate how easy it is to capitalize on the threat versus how devastating the threat is. How easy is it really to fight against a competent opponent who knows about wall infinites and get him caught in one on Corneria? Obviously some characters will have an easier time than others, but just consider the expected payouts here. Your argument about Green Greens falls into the same boat really; it's obviously way more fair than Shadow Moses Island because, even if it allows for wall infinites, the structure of the stage means that, practically, they are going to be a lot more rare and require more work and more trickery to make happen.
Who other than King Dedede can walk you off Mario Circuit? Falco damages you too much, and you can get out of it before he takes you to the edge most of the time. None of the release grabs work since any character doing a jump break will land on the overhead platform (I suppose Charizard's ground break chaingrab on Ness works, but Ness tends to die out of that anyway). Yeah, having to switch characters does seem suspect, but I'm not really personally convinced it's completely necessary. It was just how Hylain justified the course.
The checkpoint on Green Hill Zone is obviously ridiculously overpowered. By this I don't mean it hits too hard; I mean it's powerful in the sense that it completely dominates the game. I could explain how matches tend to play out here, but I just have to suggest playing a few games yourself and focusing on checkpoint control. It gets pretty dumb. As per the slopes, they do really make Jigglypuff's Rollout and Sonic in general WAY better (and otherwise don't really do too much to shift the value of things), but given that only low tiers are benefiting, that hardly seems like a deal breaker.
Well, I can't claim to know what the SBR's reasoning was, but Flat Zone 2's hazards are not really as bad as people say. Chef form does really sad damage, it's really easy to avoid the guys on Oil Panic form (they only counter), and even on Lion form the hazards confine themselves to very specific positions. The real problem with the stage, as Xiivi and I discovered experimentally, is that it would be, if allowed, the best Snake counterpick in the game. The hazards independently are not threatening enough to be a stage ruining problem, but when combined with Snake grenade camping and detonating a few very strategically placed mines, the stage becomes completely unreasonable as Snake proves stupidly dangerous and stupidly difficult to approach. Other "obstacle course" characters like the Links get similar help as well. The main reason it needs to be banned is because it just gives too big of advantages to characters who employ a particular playstyle; it's not because it's actually all that radical (the stage is far more normal of a course than most of the people who make jokes about how much it sucks despite never playing on it would believe).
Also, Rumble Falls and Big Blue don't really meet the criteria you listed for stages needing to be banned. Granted, those stages are secretly pretty reasonable (I don't bother arguing for them anymore because people just hate them way too much to ever give them a chance), but it's a flaw in the criteria you described regardless.
You also have to consider the whole picture. I didn't say Skyworld has to be banned only because Mr. Game & Watch has that super abuseable down throw. I also cited how much of a techfest the stage is and how the stage really has a completely overwhelming bias toward certain types of recoveries. The stage has a bunch of other problems too ranging from big to small and from obvious to subtle. You really have to take it all as one package. All of it together makes it seem pretty clear to me at least that Skyworld really needs to be banned.
The Ice Climbers allow for infinites too. Allowing for infinites shouldn't be an instant disqualification for anything ever. With any threat a stage particularly allows to exist, you have to evaluate how easy it is to capitalize on the threat versus how devastating the threat is. How easy is it really to fight against a competent opponent who knows about wall infinites and get him caught in one on Corneria? Obviously some characters will have an easier time than others, but just consider the expected payouts here. Your argument about Green Greens falls into the same boat really; it's obviously way more fair than Shadow Moses Island because, even if it allows for wall infinites, the structure of the stage means that, practically, they are going to be a lot more rare and require more work and more trickery to make happen.
Who other than King Dedede can walk you off Mario Circuit? Falco damages you too much, and you can get out of it before he takes you to the edge most of the time. None of the release grabs work since any character doing a jump break will land on the overhead platform (I suppose Charizard's ground break chaingrab on Ness works, but Ness tends to die out of that anyway). Yeah, having to switch characters does seem suspect, but I'm not really personally convinced it's completely necessary. It was just how Hylain justified the course.
The checkpoint on Green Hill Zone is obviously ridiculously overpowered. By this I don't mean it hits too hard; I mean it's powerful in the sense that it completely dominates the game. I could explain how matches tend to play out here, but I just have to suggest playing a few games yourself and focusing on checkpoint control. It gets pretty dumb. As per the slopes, they do really make Jigglypuff's Rollout and Sonic in general WAY better (and otherwise don't really do too much to shift the value of things), but given that only low tiers are benefiting, that hardly seems like a deal breaker.
deepseadiva
Bodybuilding Magical Girl
I agree completly. But for tournament overall speed, especially ones allowing for newer players, e.g. every tournament, I think the fewer the better.
You can utilize the hazards for a very powerful effect. The Snake example makes it sound like just a really good counterpick.
I believe the spikes on RF to be incredibly powerful and you can circle on BB.
That goes back to my question. If we're going to be banning a stage due to character advantage/disadvantage, how much bias until we ban it?
Would you mind listing some of the "other problems"?
Ice Climbers don't need a wall to perform their infinite. And if we can get rid a lot of locks and infintes by simply banning a stage, I think that would be a pretty simple solution.
The balancing of the payoff versus accessibility I agree with.
I might be misinformed about that. I was under the impression several characters had chaingrabs. Pikachu comes to mind, but I'll say I'm not an expert.
I've played matches there, and I gotta say, I'm starting to turn. When the match shifts focus to something like that, it might be the stage's problem.
Deoxys
Smash Lord
I agree with the first part, but I think 5 starters is better than 3, since having 3 gives characters like Snake (particularly awesome on a specific starter) a significant advantage.
In my opinion, we should NEVER ban a stage due to character advantage/disadvantage, unless it is removes the ability for a character to excercise skill in a way that can potentially be rewarding (in other words, if it makes matchups 0-100 for at least one character). For instance, stages that can be circle camped create situations where the other character cannot hope to gain any footing through even "perfect" strategy. At times, characters on Mario Circuit are basically forced to fight on the walkoff, resulting in their essential auto-loss. Due to grab release CGs, several characters besides DDD can do this. To hear your opponent announce their CP and find a significant amount of the cast unplayable is unfair.
Green Greens is unfair because the blocks are sometimes bomb blocks randomly, and thus there will be times when a player who is grabbing is lucky enough to see one fall towards the trajectory of one of his throws, and can throw them into it, and because the stage randomly provies apples that can heal %.
The problem with GHZ is that the entire thing is a walkoff with no platforms or reliable hazards to interrupt/avoid the CG.
Cars on PTAD are random at times and give very little warning.
Everything else MenoUnderwater said about Ampharos's statements is entirely in line with my own stance.
I've experimented with nine stage strikeout, and it's actually really fast. For one, you have to use an intelligent format which means you don't take turns striking one stage. You actually strike 1-2-2-2-1 which is faster AND more fair. The only times it is slow are when people don't know what's going on, and I think that's really fixed pretty easily by just clearly explaining the system at the start of the tournament and just giving it time. If you host bi-weeklies or something, it may be worth using a 5 stage strike-out as "practice" and then switching to 9 stages on the second or third event I suppose, but I can really say that if you are experienced at nine stage strikeout it's really, really quick (Colin and I online experimented with an 11 stage strikeout actually, and it worked beautifully other than the part where we always played on PictoChat). It also adds a lot more depth to the neutral section too and lots of diversity; I'm convinced that even if it adds a little inconvenience, the gains more than justify it.
You're just wrong about the grab release chaingrabs on Mario Circuit. Try it with something like Yoshi v Meta Knight; Meta Knight just lands on the platform above safely. The only ground break chaingrab in the entire game that works is Charizard v Ness, and even without walk-offs Charizard almost always gets a stock off Ness from it anyway (the matchup is actually balanced in the sense that Ness completely destroys Charizard otherwise). With Pikachu, I don't think the ones that move forward generally last long enough to make it off the walk-off; Pikachu's really long chaingrab on select characters is in place anyway.
That falling bomb scenario on Green Greens seriously almost never happens. I play on Green Greens a ton, and I literally can't remember the last time that happened. You can guarantee it won't happen by just making sure the top three blocks on the side are still there too; it's actually fairly predictable when blocks are going to fall. That not anywhere near a sure thing death when it does happen either so I really think you're exaggerating that issue. The healing apples are just ridiculously trivial; I can't believe you'd mention them. They're not very common at all, and they heal a whopping 8%. I have never seen a match on Green Greens turn because of them beyond people being disadvantaged because the attacking apples would have been better for them!
I'm just not convinced about the walk-offs being as bad as you are convinced they are with Green Hill Zone (or in general), but really, I think if you see the checkpoint not dominating the game, you're just underestimating the checkpoint. Yeah, early on when I played there the walk-offs seemed like the main feature, but every game I play there the checkpoint's domination increases. These days, if I happen to play on Green Hill Zone, it's pretty much Checkpoint Hill Zone since that's all anyone focuses on the entire match, and those who ignore it just lose really badly.
If you are familiar with Port Town Aero Dive (which I am), you can avoid the cars the overwhelming majority of the time, but it is true there are the rare cases where you really can't do anything about it, and they just hit too hard for their own good. I really don't think the stage is cut and dry at all; I think it only seems obviously terrible at first but then becomes a lot harder to judge once you get knowledge of it (I'm leaning toward "it, very sadly, does need to be banned" these days, but I maintain that it's not an obvious decision at all).
About the character advantage, well, on Flat Zone 2 it's about of this magnitude. I have a friend who uses Snake. I beat him about 80% of the time. On Flat Zone 2, he would win about 80% of the time after learning the stage. That seems like way too strong of a counterpick for me.
EDIT for neutral strike out usual case:
To explain how it would work, I know from the start that I'm using Mr. Game & Watch. I know I want to get rid of Pokemon Stadium 1 and Yoshi's Island Brawl from the start, and I'll decide on the other two stages I want to get rid of later. My opponent picks the Ice Climbers, and I have to go first. I strike Final Destination immediately because they're the Ice Climbers; I don't really have to think about this. They strike Castle Siege and Delfino because the transforming can screw up their chaingrabs; those are both easy choices for them (good ICs don't care about walk-offs because they kill out of a grab regardless). I think they might want to strike PkMn Stadium 1 because of transformation so I refrain, but I do know I'm going to kill Yoshi's Island Brawl now. I really don't want them to get anything too long and flat so I kill Smashville with it. The ICs player might stop and think now because he's down to Battlefield/Halberd/Pokemon Stadium 1/Lylat. Lylat gives me way too many platforms so that's an obvious one to kill, and if the ICs player then has to decide whether Pokemon Stadium potentially interrupting a chaingrab is worth giving me a shot at my abstractly best neutral, Halberd. That choice probably won't take too long to make; Lylat and the Halberd are gone. For me, the last choice is easy. Pokemon Stadium 1 is really obnoxious for Mr. Game & Watch, and Battlefield is a good outcome. I strike Pokemon Stadium 1, and we're off the Battlefield. This is a very fair first match stage for this matchup.
With five stages, it is a lot harder for me. I know I definitely have to strike Final Destination. It's seriously not even a remote question against the Ice Climbers. In fact, I'm going to use a stage ban on it too; that map isn't even close to fair against the ICs. That leaves me only able to pick one stage to eliminate out of Battlefield, Smashville, YI(B), and either Lylat or Pokemon Stadium 1. The Ice Climbers are going to strike Battlefield for sure, and they'll strike Lylat if it's an option which forces things to Smashville which was far more in their favor than Battlefield (I can't play platforms very well against their grab game). If Pokemon Stadium 1 is around, they have the option of forcing things there instead of Smashville which might help them even more; I'm not sure. In any case, the whole time I'm really wishing stages like Delfino were around to put things more in my corner...
Neither of these take too long by the way; odds are we'd just be saying stages back and forth pretty fast. That seems like a lot of thinking, but since we both are assumed to know our own characters well and the other character at least somewhat, most of that is stuff that's immediately obvious to us.
You're just wrong about the grab release chaingrabs on Mario Circuit. Try it with something like Yoshi v Meta Knight; Meta Knight just lands on the platform above safely. The only ground break chaingrab in the entire game that works is Charizard v Ness, and even without walk-offs Charizard almost always gets a stock off Ness from it anyway (the matchup is actually balanced in the sense that Ness completely destroys Charizard otherwise). With Pikachu, I don't think the ones that move forward generally last long enough to make it off the walk-off; Pikachu's really long chaingrab on select characters is in place anyway.
That falling bomb scenario on Green Greens seriously almost never happens. I play on Green Greens a ton, and I literally can't remember the last time that happened. You can guarantee it won't happen by just making sure the top three blocks on the side are still there too; it's actually fairly predictable when blocks are going to fall. That not anywhere near a sure thing death when it does happen either so I really think you're exaggerating that issue. The healing apples are just ridiculously trivial; I can't believe you'd mention them. They're not very common at all, and they heal a whopping 8%. I have never seen a match on Green Greens turn because of them beyond people being disadvantaged because the attacking apples would have been better for them!
I'm just not convinced about the walk-offs being as bad as you are convinced they are with Green Hill Zone (or in general), but really, I think if you see the checkpoint not dominating the game, you're just underestimating the checkpoint. Yeah, early on when I played there the walk-offs seemed like the main feature, but every game I play there the checkpoint's domination increases. These days, if I happen to play on Green Hill Zone, it's pretty much Checkpoint Hill Zone since that's all anyone focuses on the entire match, and those who ignore it just lose really badly.
If you are familiar with Port Town Aero Dive (which I am), you can avoid the cars the overwhelming majority of the time, but it is true there are the rare cases where you really can't do anything about it, and they just hit too hard for their own good. I really don't think the stage is cut and dry at all; I think it only seems obviously terrible at first but then becomes a lot harder to judge once you get knowledge of it (I'm leaning toward "it, very sadly, does need to be banned" these days, but I maintain that it's not an obvious decision at all).
About the character advantage, well, on Flat Zone 2 it's about of this magnitude. I have a friend who uses Snake. I beat him about 80% of the time. On Flat Zone 2, he would win about 80% of the time after learning the stage. That seems like way too strong of a counterpick for me.
EDIT for neutral strike out usual case:
To explain how it would work, I know from the start that I'm using Mr. Game & Watch. I know I want to get rid of Pokemon Stadium 1 and Yoshi's Island Brawl from the start, and I'll decide on the other two stages I want to get rid of later. My opponent picks the Ice Climbers, and I have to go first. I strike Final Destination immediately because they're the Ice Climbers; I don't really have to think about this. They strike Castle Siege and Delfino because the transforming can screw up their chaingrabs; those are both easy choices for them (good ICs don't care about walk-offs because they kill out of a grab regardless). I think they might want to strike PkMn Stadium 1 because of transformation so I refrain, but I do know I'm going to kill Yoshi's Island Brawl now. I really don't want them to get anything too long and flat so I kill Smashville with it. The ICs player might stop and think now because he's down to Battlefield/Halberd/Pokemon Stadium 1/Lylat. Lylat gives me way too many platforms so that's an obvious one to kill, and if the ICs player then has to decide whether Pokemon Stadium potentially interrupting a chaingrab is worth giving me a shot at my abstractly best neutral, Halberd. That choice probably won't take too long to make; Lylat and the Halberd are gone. For me, the last choice is easy. Pokemon Stadium 1 is really obnoxious for Mr. Game & Watch, and Battlefield is a good outcome. I strike Pokemon Stadium 1, and we're off the Battlefield. This is a very fair first match stage for this matchup.
With five stages, it is a lot harder for me. I know I definitely have to strike Final Destination. It's seriously not even a remote question against the Ice Climbers. In fact, I'm going to use a stage ban on it too; that map isn't even close to fair against the ICs. That leaves me only able to pick one stage to eliminate out of Battlefield, Smashville, YI(B), and either Lylat or Pokemon Stadium 1. The Ice Climbers are going to strike Battlefield for sure, and they'll strike Lylat if it's an option which forces things to Smashville which was far more in their favor than Battlefield (I can't play platforms very well against their grab game). If Pokemon Stadium 1 is around, they have the option of forcing things there instead of Smashville which might help them even more; I'm not sure. In any case, the whole time I'm really wishing stages like Delfino were around to put things more in my corner...
Neither of these take too long by the way; odds are we'd just be saying stages back and forth pretty fast. That seems like a lot of thinking, but since we both are assumed to know our own characters well and the other character at least somewhat, most of that is stuff that's immediately obvious to us.
MysticKenji
Smash Master
Actually, the spikes on Falls don't have too much on an effect on the match due to how avoidable they are.
The Milk Monster
Smash Champion
In spite of that, Rumble Falls still is terrible.
Deoxys
Smash Lord
Ok, but Mario Circuit is still terrible... several characters simply CANNOT win against DDD there, and it's awfully harsh IMO to requre someone who mains a character DDD to chaingrab to learn another character just so they can go better than 0-100 on a stage.
I know PTAD inside and out. There are times (not that rare, like 1 in 5 stops or so) where you cannot predict if the cars will come. Again, letting chance have such a huge potential swing in the match is bad. I think it's pretty obvious, but then again I despise adding more luck to strategy games.
8% is a lot... If 4 apples that heal appear, that's 32%!!!! How can you be surprised I'd mention them!? One player could gain a HUGE edge in a match due to luck! A stage that adds so much luck to the game is textbook ban material IMO. Furthermore, there's a glitch that can be performed deliberately (and easily claimed to be an accident) which makes the stage virtually unplayable.
Why do you care about checkpoints so much? Just don't approach it and it won't matter at all. Try playing a good DDD on GHZ. If most characters are grabbed they lose, although not 100% of scenarios like on Marico Circuit when players are forced to the walkoff.
A counterpick cannot be "too strong" if the opponent can still win realistically. Just look at Rainbow Cruise! It's even on Hylian's list A, and it makes huge swings in numerous matchups, yet the stage is obviously fair. Flat Zone 2 is banned not because of how potentially powerful a CP it could be, but for fitting other ban criterion.
Regarding the stage choices, I suppose it's up to the TOs to decide between 5, 7, 9, and 11 starters depending on how experienced they think their players will be and how fair they consider Pictochat and PS2.
deepseadiva
Bodybuilding Magical Girl
While I agree that more starters would result in a closer than normal "neutral" starting stage, I still think speed, something very important to tournament organizers, isn't something we should sacrifice. I suppose you could say I think 3 starters is too little to be truly fair, while 9 I see as too time consuming. 5 seems like a decent, simple number.
I've also come to a realization. I'm no longer against the Starter/counter list in the SBR ruleset. It gives TOs a good amount of flexibility allowing them to form their rules based on situational player experience expectations. While it might be vague, it does in no way burden a player's preparation level. Unlike the stupid counter/ban list. >_>
Ignoring what Isaid above, I'd like to stress the last quoted word. "Us", I believe is very alienating. There are such things as good players that don't know the stages, or at least those who haven't memorized the starters. A pen and paper list of all the stages every match sounds sooo slow.
Has it been discovered how to activate the glitch consistently?
It's obvious. It's a powerful hazard, capable of KOing, random, and gives as much warning as a Fox Illusion.
I test it by asking myself, "Would I really wanna be the TO where I final's match was played on Port Town and was lost due to a car KO?"
I think I'd take this more into consideration if it wasn't Flat Zone 2...
But otherwise, I don't think something can be too good of a counterpick if an opponent can still be beaten. I like this:
I don't really play on the stage, but I'm pretty sure a throw into the spikes would be something that could be utilized heavily.
Avoiding it alone is really rather easy.
I agree with Amazing, the apples aren't the problem on Green Greens. While they do seem to just appear "whenever", it's always in the center platform. Just hang around there if you want some.
Deoxys
Smash Lord
I don't know how to activate it consistently, but I think it happens when a windbox detonates a bomb block and the user doesn't get hit.Has it been discovered how to activate the glitch consistently?
[...]
I agree with Amazing, the apples aren't the problem on Green Greens. While they do seem to just appear "whenever", it's always in the center platform. Just hang around there if you want some.
The fact that there is the theoretical situation where the apples fall while one player is in the process of being KO'd, and the other can potentially heal 32% or 26% and get a throwing item, giving the lucky player a huge advantage. Sure, it's very rare, but it will happen and it hurts the competitiveness of the game.
I'd like to ask you again why you think 9 stages takes too long. The people going to a tournament are going to already know what stages to strike ASAP (unless they're scrubs, but frankly we should not be making rules based around them), so it's only going to take a few extra seconds at most. Assuming there's a large number of rounds, all it will result in is a few more minutes added to the tournament at most.
Killing stage variety to remove a negligable amount of time from a tournament is silly. If it's going to last 4 or 5 hours, nobody is going to care about an extra 2 or 3 minutes.
EDIT:
I think how reasonable the chances situation will occur should matter. If odds are it's not going to happen even once during a single competition, it shouldn't be that strong an argument for banning.
Deoxys
Smash Lord
Who wouldn't think Green Greens should be banned if they lost the grand finals this way? Would they be wrong to think such? Even if it only rarely happens, it still happens, so it should still be banned IMO. Sure, it may just ruin 2% of matches played there, but any match can be the deciding one; even one match with a chance-determined* outcome is too many for a legal stage.
*
Obviously, being killed by hazards that appear randomly in fixed areas like the Arwings on Corneria is not unfair in this way, since the player could have avoided the situation.
If I were hosting a tournament, I'd have a printed sheet with pictures of the stages and their legality at every station which would mean that no one would be losing significant time by not knowing the rules. Also, in my experience, players with poor stage knowledge also don't care to use stage selection strategically and would probably just strike their least favorite stages (which goes even faster than striking stages you assume are bad for you). How many players, really, aren't going to know what kinds of stages they want and simultaneously are going to really care about making the best choices?
With the falling block on Green Greens refers to an ordinary exploding block falling while you are being hit over the small area on which they can fall, not to any glitch (those glitches really not being a factor we should worry about and, if they were really broken, would probably be ban-worthy independent of the stage). It really just doesn't happen, or at the very least it's very rare. That apple healing being broken is even more rare to the point that I have never seen anything close to it. Apples fall seldom. When apples do fall, seldom are there four. When four apples fall, seldom can you get to all of them first. Any arbitrary apple is more likely to be an attacking apple than a healing apple. You gave a figure of 2% for ruined matches, but that's really way too big of a number. It's seriously more like .02% of matches on Green Greens that are ruined by things like that; it's low enough that we can really ignore it the same way we ignore randomly falling through Delfino Plaza and Castle Siege (among other stages in both melee and brawl).
The thing with Port Town is that you know at any time where the cars could come. That's a big factor. I'm not even really trying to argue for it's legality, but it's not like if you're safely on an upper platform or the far side of the course that you are ever going to be "randomly" hit.
I actually have played quite a bit on Rumble Falls, and really, the spikes are not a big deal at all. The first spike is really powerful but is in a really out of the way position, and it pretty much always hits you into a surface on which you can tech anyway. The next two spike areas (there are only three) are pretty weak, and the third one is ridiculously out of the way and pretty much never hit. The second one is actually a somewhat big deal in the sense that it's common for players to be hit by it (it's weak), but it's a matter of the usual sorts of risk analysis. It's pretty easy to stick low and then maneuver around and get on the long, flat area above the spikes safely, but you might choose to play closer to the spikes with the hope of getting your opponent into them. They just give you a chance to take a small risk for the chance at a small reward; I think it's good gameplay. Really, Rumble Falls isn't bad at all (I have willingly gone there as Ganon; it's very, very easy to keep up with the stage); I bet if Icicle Mountain didn't exist in melee it would be on the counterpick list right now.
On Green Hill Zone, I think you're missing the point of the checkpoint. You don't avoid it at all! You rush for the checkpoint and camp it! Matches on that stage are always really slow because it's all about controlling the checkpoint. Having control over a stage hazard that can hit your opponent but not you is just so ridiculously good, and at any moment you control it you just want to keep the fight close to it. You might spam projectiles safely from behind it, sometimes approaching the ridiculous (have you seen a Ness camp the checkpoint and rain Pk Thunder on the foe from behind it?). Even something like Chef is very good from behind the checkpoint! You might also go in front of the checkpoint to bait attacks and then try to pull back. If the opponent chases you to retaliate, they just get hit by the checkpoint. Even more, the checkpoint appears and disappears randomly so random players get this big advantage. Seriously, having a checkpoint appear in front of you is better than having something like a Beam Sword appear... I really think you're exaggerating how bad the stage is against King Dedede since you can play riskily near the walk-offs if you really want to and ensure everyone always dies at low percentages (making his chaingrab not really as damaging as it seems), and it's not like the stage really favors doing things that tend to make it easy for him to land grabs anyway. It's also, of course, a really limited way to try to counterpick since if you don't actually play King Dedede and I pick someone who he can't chaingrab at all which includes several of the best characters in the game, you are out of luck. We can guess that most King Dedede players are either going to be well known or select him in the first round as well so it's not like you don't have a chance to use a stage ban against those that actually do play King Dedede.
With the Flat Zone 2 thing, I again can't say I know why the SBR banned it, but their posted reason was really complete nonsense (the hazards are seriously not a big deal if you have played on the stage more than twice). Maybe I'm just weird; I went into brawl with a strong assumption that every stage was fair and only began to treat stages as unfair once I was 100% sure they weren't fair. I get a feeling most people looked at Flat Zone 2 once and decided it wasn't fair, and I am really bothered by that because it means some stages just never get a fair review. By your counterpick definition, Flat Zone 2 should definitely be legal; I really disagree with your definition of where the line for fair is, but if you say that any stage that only has the problem of character bias but only has winnable matches on it should be legal, then Flat Zone 2 should be legal. Of course, have fun when Snakes are counterpicking it and making the former complaints about Meta Knight look like nothing...
With the falling block on Green Greens refers to an ordinary exploding block falling while you are being hit over the small area on which they can fall, not to any glitch (those glitches really not being a factor we should worry about and, if they were really broken, would probably be ban-worthy independent of the stage). It really just doesn't happen, or at the very least it's very rare. That apple healing being broken is even more rare to the point that I have never seen anything close to it. Apples fall seldom. When apples do fall, seldom are there four. When four apples fall, seldom can you get to all of them first. Any arbitrary apple is more likely to be an attacking apple than a healing apple. You gave a figure of 2% for ruined matches, but that's really way too big of a number. It's seriously more like .02% of matches on Green Greens that are ruined by things like that; it's low enough that we can really ignore it the same way we ignore randomly falling through Delfino Plaza and Castle Siege (among other stages in both melee and brawl).
The thing with Port Town is that you know at any time where the cars could come. That's a big factor. I'm not even really trying to argue for it's legality, but it's not like if you're safely on an upper platform or the far side of the course that you are ever going to be "randomly" hit.
I actually have played quite a bit on Rumble Falls, and really, the spikes are not a big deal at all. The first spike is really powerful but is in a really out of the way position, and it pretty much always hits you into a surface on which you can tech anyway. The next two spike areas (there are only three) are pretty weak, and the third one is ridiculously out of the way and pretty much never hit. The second one is actually a somewhat big deal in the sense that it's common for players to be hit by it (it's weak), but it's a matter of the usual sorts of risk analysis. It's pretty easy to stick low and then maneuver around and get on the long, flat area above the spikes safely, but you might choose to play closer to the spikes with the hope of getting your opponent into them. They just give you a chance to take a small risk for the chance at a small reward; I think it's good gameplay. Really, Rumble Falls isn't bad at all (I have willingly gone there as Ganon; it's very, very easy to keep up with the stage); I bet if Icicle Mountain didn't exist in melee it would be on the counterpick list right now.
On Green Hill Zone, I think you're missing the point of the checkpoint. You don't avoid it at all! You rush for the checkpoint and camp it! Matches on that stage are always really slow because it's all about controlling the checkpoint. Having control over a stage hazard that can hit your opponent but not you is just so ridiculously good, and at any moment you control it you just want to keep the fight close to it. You might spam projectiles safely from behind it, sometimes approaching the ridiculous (have you seen a Ness camp the checkpoint and rain Pk Thunder on the foe from behind it?). Even something like Chef is very good from behind the checkpoint! You might also go in front of the checkpoint to bait attacks and then try to pull back. If the opponent chases you to retaliate, they just get hit by the checkpoint. Even more, the checkpoint appears and disappears randomly so random players get this big advantage. Seriously, having a checkpoint appear in front of you is better than having something like a Beam Sword appear... I really think you're exaggerating how bad the stage is against King Dedede since you can play riskily near the walk-offs if you really want to and ensure everyone always dies at low percentages (making his chaingrab not really as damaging as it seems), and it's not like the stage really favors doing things that tend to make it easy for him to land grabs anyway. It's also, of course, a really limited way to try to counterpick since if you don't actually play King Dedede and I pick someone who he can't chaingrab at all which includes several of the best characters in the game, you are out of luck. We can guess that most King Dedede players are either going to be well known or select him in the first round as well so it's not like you don't have a chance to use a stage ban against those that actually do play King Dedede.
With the Flat Zone 2 thing, I again can't say I know why the SBR banned it, but their posted reason was really complete nonsense (the hazards are seriously not a big deal if you have played on the stage more than twice). Maybe I'm just weird; I went into brawl with a strong assumption that every stage was fair and only began to treat stages as unfair once I was 100% sure they weren't fair. I get a feeling most people looked at Flat Zone 2 once and decided it wasn't fair, and I am really bothered by that because it means some stages just never get a fair review. By your counterpick definition, Flat Zone 2 should definitely be legal; I really disagree with your definition of where the line for fair is, but if you say that any stage that only has the problem of character bias but only has winnable matches on it should be legal, then Flat Zone 2 should be legal. Of course, have fun when Snakes are counterpicking it and making the former complaints about Meta Knight look like nothing...
MysticKenji
Smash Master
^This.
And if you're fighting on Green Greens, the apples should be the least of your worries.
Deoxys
Smash Lord
The glitch I'm talking about is clearly broken, and should obviously be a factor we should worry about...
Players never fall through Delfino Plaza or Castle Siege randomly. There are specific things they did that caused the glitch, so they can't john about it since it's their fault. As far as I remember, there has NEVER been a legal stage with a completely random effect that can swing the match. Ok, let's say it's 1/500 matches on Green Greens that are decided by the apples (I think 1/5000 is way too small). That's still too many. That match can be the deciding match in a set, and I don't want to have luck influence the outcome of a my set. We haven't allowed complete randomness before, and I don't think we should start now.
Do you think Big Blue should be legal? Reading this just made me wonder where you think the line should be drawn for having to worry about the stage.
Why is Chef very good from behind the checkpoint? Isn't there always a spot on the stage that Chef can't hit from behind the checkpoint regardless of where the checkpoint is? Is the issue that they sometimes can't get on the other side? If you play riskily near the walk-offs, DDD will just spam his ungodly projectile. If he gets ahead of you, you can't just camp near the edge. I think you might be forgetting that King DDD is one of easiest characters to master. Sure, you can just play someone he can't CG, but forcing a player to pick a different character to avoid a CP they go 0-100 on is unfair. If you think it's fine for a stage to make a matchup 0-100 with players of equal skill, then I understand the validity of your "they can choose another character" argument. However, the general opinion of the competitive smash community seems to be that it's unfair for a character to be unable to win when against a specific character on a specific stage.
I assume several characters simply cannot beat DDD there as well.
I'm not fighting on Green Greens. I'm arguing about whether or not it should be banned. Sure, the apples SHOULD be the least of my worries, but sometimes luck will decide to ruin the game with them.
lol what a rebuttal. Someone is dedicated. XD
imho, green greens should be.... legal! If norfair is in why shouldn't this stage be?
Deoxys
Smash Lord
I can see a TO deciding that, since it only ruins a game ~1/700 (a thought-out guess) times and is otherwise totally fair.
And to answer your second question, because its randomness less intrusive. They are good comparisons, however.
Apparently I was wrong to imply that there's not always a safe section on Port Town Aero Drive. Now, my only issues is that you can bthrow camp when you have to go to the far side of the stage, and it has Corneria-syndrome since some characters can KO easily by throwing them off the edge or by throwing them into the cars. Since they can always choose the other side, I now think PTAD should be a legal CP.
Thus, I propose:
Starter
Battlefield
Final Destination
Pokémon Stadium 1
Smashville
Yoshi's Island
Castle Siege*
Lylat Cruise*
Halberd**
Pokémon Stadium 2**
Delfino Plaza***
Pictochat***
*For 7 or more starters
**For 9 or more starters
***For 11 starters
Counter
Brinstar
Distant Planet
Frigate Orpheon
Jungle Japes
Luigi's Mansion
Norfair
Pirate Ship
Port Town Aero Drive
Rainbow Cruise
Skyworld
Yoshi's Island (Pipes)
Counter/Banned
Green Greens
The Milk Monster
Smash Champion
Though I hate Norfair, there isn't a whole lot to break it, if anything.
You can get hella' damage if you run and hide in the capsule, but you can just keep dropping and grabbing the edge if you don't wanna' get hit by the lava, I saw Ripple do that when someone CPed Norfair.
The Milk Monster
Smash Champion
I like your list, except on counters I would say drop Port Town and Skyworld, and that is a good, solid list.
Deoxys
Smash Lord
The "and make it back to the stage" part doesn't make sense to me. How do you have to make it back to the stage any more on Norfair than on other stages? When I play on this stage the lava is really an afterthought. It's so slow, most characters can take their time getting away from it, and the rest of the characters do well there otherwise anyway.
Thanks for the feedback; I'm glad you like it. Skyworld and PTAD are my least favorite stages (along with Brinstar), but I can't convince myself that they're "unfair," even though PTAD degenerates the game to a projectile-spamming campfest at points, it can still be overcome by any character.
Deoxys
Smash Lord
So what I main MK?
Horrible platforms? Care to elaborate on what makes these platforms horrible...?
No room? When was this memo saying that being small at times warrants a ban?
Lava gets in the way? If you're not talking about how it forces you into close quarters, then you're just being silly. Of course lava gets in the way. That's what hazards do....
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