Official Stage Legality Discussion

[deepseadiva]

*facepalm* Please, don't ask stupid questions here. Go do some research.

Spoiler

D3 chaingrab inf. on wall

Yes, how DARE the newb not know things.

Hm. About Shadow Moses, Why is that banned? For Inf Tech off the walls and walk off edges? The walls are destructible, but for the edges, I dunno about them.

Look here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5097744#post5097744
Scroll down to Shadow Moses

 

[Xona]

Luck should never come in. Thats all i'm going to say.

The official tourney rules are the most fair, and that's what this thread is about. Fairness.

If luck should never come in, then why are you for accepting tripping!? Tripping could easily equal getting grabbed by Dedede or Ice Climbers, resulting in a stock-loss. Tripping is debateably even worse than wario ware inc.! Tripping is unpreventable except for never using a land-based attack ever again, and it also gives enough time of being stunned to get anhilated. Whereas wario ware's rewards system is preventable (debateably, I hate this stage too and find it ban-worthy) by sabotage, sabotage your opponent from completing the microgames. This doesn't always work, unfortunately, but then you should try to "ledge-stall" in case they become invincible, which doesn't always work either. I agree entirely with wario ware's banning but I think tripping is worse (although there would still be little risk as even if it wasn't banned because no one would pick wario ware anyway).


Also, I'm not against banning bridge of eldin, it's just that the Dedede CG is not a good enough reason by itself. I'm just asking for a better reason.

And if the official tourney rules are the most fair, then why are they so controversal? Wobbling is not banned under the official tourney rules yet people keep pushing for a ban on it. It's also unfair that many player's worst stages are banned for them allowing them to gain a massive advantage instead of them being forced to adapt to the stages. In Melee, I could easily prove fd ban-worthy with wobbling. Quoting the Dedede CG to ban stages is like quoting wobbling to ban stages. The only difference is scale of characters, the fact that there are 4 characters who can't escape Dedede CG'ing, while only Ice Climbers can escape wobbling and they are also the only characters that can do it. There is a solid ban-arguement for fd, it's just not strong enough for a ban.

The reason that wobbling could pose as a possible ban-arguement for fd is that it's nearly impossible not to get grabbed on fd (especially for Bowser, I will never accept fd as fair enough for starter unless Gimpyfish beats Wobbles on fd), if the Ice Climbers player is good enough, it would be impossible. Also, wobbling isn't all that easy to do, but that's irrelevant. Another arguement against fd (this one can only apply to remove it from starter unless combined with wobbling) is projectile spamming, need proof? here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52o9pQVp5RE

As you can see, Ken lost to projectile usage on fd. This has obviously been proven in Melee, but it has yet to be proven in Brawl. More evidence in Melee is that Fox, Falco, Sheik, and Peach all have spammable projectiles (maybe minus sheik, she has a projectile, but it's level of spammability is debateable).

 

[x After Dawn x]

Xona, stop posting.

 

[cjrocker]

Those are all win.

 

[Chaos F-15]

Some one should make custom stages that is legal for tournaments.

 

[x After Dawn x]

No. Stop asking such stupid questions, do some research first, guys.

 

[Mic_128]

No. Stop asking such stupid questions, do some research first, guys.

Actually I would tell YOU to do some research. How many times have I said that the SBR is seriously discussing and looking at Custom stages for Tournament use? Don't be a **** Dawn, especially when you don't always know what you're talking about.

 

[Tim_The_Enchanter]

What kind of "neutral custom stages" are you talking about Mic?

 

[Mic_128]

Can't say as of yet. Like I said, we're still discussing it.

 

[x After Dawn x]

I don't, but I'm tired of seeing the same posts over and over again in this topic. Don't people read back a few pages?

P.S. Don't mind the aggression in my posts, I'm just having a bad day. But I did mean it when I said for people to look back a few pages and research, because the way custom stages are made and set up just aren't suitable for competitive play.

 

[Ref]

Why not Counter pick custom stages? Meaning this:

Player 1 brings a SD card with his 1 stage on it. He presents his stage to the TO. If the TO accepts, he must then get 10 players out of 15 that the TO picks to accept his stage as a counter pick. These. Once accepted the player has proof that he wears to show he has a stage for counter picking. The opponent may still choose to ban the custom stage as 1 of the stages the opponent can ban.

The guidelines for making the stages are not for me to decide... I'll leave that to someone more authorized...

I just feel like posting my ideas.... Not many things better to do I guess...

 

[Blackbelt]

Why not Counter pick custom stages? Meaning this:

Player 1 brings a SD card with his 1 stage on it. He presents his stage to the TO. If the TO accepts, he must then get 10 players out of 15 that the TO picks to accept his stage as a counter pick. These. Once accepted the player has proof that he wears to show he has a stage for counter picking. The opponent may still choose to ban the custom stage as 1 of the stages the opponent can ban.

The guidelines for making the stages are not for me to decide... I'll leave that to someone more authorized...

I just feel like posting my ideas.... Not many things better to do I guess...

I know the intentions are good, but it's too much unneccesary work.

 

[Ref]

I know the intentions are good, but it's too much unneccesary work.

Yep, you could be right, Can you imagine every player showing up with a custom stage? It will take a while to get through them all...

 

[Overswarm]

While Mic can't discuss most of the details at the moment pertaining to custom stages, it is not because he is witholding information or being secretive. We really just don't know what to do with it yet. As soon as I buy a new / find my LAN adapter for my Wii we'll be doing some trial runs on discussing stages, so maybe there will be something new... but for now we know little.

However, what we DO know is:

-Custom stages are not needed; they can potentially add spice to a tournament and also could make stage selection much easier (assuming we had the ability to create a solid lone starter or something of the sort) or more balanced (assuming we wanted to create medium or large sized neutrals)... but this is not a need.

-Custom stages are a pain; they are hard to transfer around and the possibility of errors pertaining to them are large

-Custom stages would rarely, if ever, be completely accepted by the community in the sense that they would become tournament standard. It is more likely that aggressive TOs with a strong history of popular tournaments would have to take up the use of custom stages no matter who they were created by or why.



We are currently not addressing custom stages with our full attention. There are other things that will happen first, for sure. Afterwards it may be that custom stages pick up speed, but this is an uncertainty.

If you'd like to see custom stages and think they would be a boon to the competitive scene on a large scale.... tell us why! Custom stages are a huge pain and while theoretically we could get dozens of excellent stages created by the community that have been tested and edited by the SBR, we do not have the manpower to do that. As such, only single custom stages that caught our eye on occasion or stages created and edited by the SBR themselves would end up being used; this further limits the popularity and use of custom stages. There are so many problems with them and so little to gain other than variety that it is difficult to even fathom convincing a TO to risk his tournament's success with a custom stage.

Why do you want to see custom stages?

 

[cjrocker]

I don't think custom stages in tournaments would be worth the tremendous effort. But if enough people would be interested enough to partake in one, it could turn out very well.

 

[deepseadiva]

Custom stages are not needed; they can potentially add spice to a tournament and also could make stage selection much easier (assuming we had the ability to create a solid lone starter or something of the sort)

Having one, truly neutral stage would be pretty fantastic. And not that every tournament is going to make it standard - but if the possibility of having that stage as an option was there - it would make things MUCH easier at the start of a set.

The big problem would be mistakes in the creation of the stage e.g, it's a block closer to the left or something. Then the function fails, as tempting as the form is.

 

[Mic_128]

Well custom stages can be sent both online and via SD cards, so it wouldn't be too hard to send the exact stage without error from recreating it.

 

[deepseadiva]

"Click here to download the SBR's certified tournament legal custom stage."
I forgot this was possible. =D

I might start trying to design one.

So far I think it should have ledges.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Mic: Not everybody has an SD card, not everybody has access to move the stage from the internet to their Wii. This basically prevents custom stages from becoming a standard and it creates a divide between players as some may not have practice on these stages. The whole point of having widespread, non-custom stages is so that players can practice on them so that in competitive tournament play, they can be ready for anything. If somebody randomly counterpicked with a stage that you have never seen or played on before, that is definitely not fair. And it would also be unfair if some Wiis did not have the custom stage; players would complain that they could not win a match due to the lack of preferable stage counterpicking. Then you can almost bet that the other player would complain that "it shouldn't be allowed anyways, I haven't played on it before."

See where this is going? It just creates divides between players. Not only social divides, but digital divides as custom stages becoming a standard = some people being left out without them, thus creating a lack of completion and practice in the game.

Honestly, it's just not a great idea. There's nothing wrong with the amount of stages that are already offered off the bat, so I don't see why we need to complicate things and add more to a list that's already good. Melee was completely and 100 % playable with even less stages than there is in Brawl.

 

[Vect0r]

I don't have an SD card either

 

[Sunstar]

i think, that it could be possible to have custom stages... there must be a limit of official custom stages... maybe around 5...
and even if players do not have a SD card, they could still create custom stages that look exactly like the official ones by just copying them from a screen shot (maybe with some kind of raster on it)

but the problem is to find out those 5 official custom stages... there might be thousans of good ideas of fair and balanced custom stages... and it would be a really hard work to find out, which of those 1700 stages are the 5 best ones

result:
it is possible to have custom stages on tournaments (or official custom stages), but it is connected with really hard work before having them

 

[Oracle]

If luck should never come in, then why are you for accepting tripping!? Tripping could easily equal getting grabbed by Dedede or Ice Climbers, resulting in a stock-loss. Tripping is debateably even worse than wario ware inc.! Tripping is unpreventable except for never using a land-based attack ever again, and it also gives enough time of being stunned to get anhilated. Whereas wario ware's rewards system is preventable (debateably, I hate this stage too and find it ban-worthy) by sabotage, sabotage your opponent from completing the microgames. This doesn't always work, unfortunately, but then you should try to "ledge-stall" in case they become invincible, which doesn't always work either. I agree entirely with wario ware's banning but I think tripping is worse (although there would still be little risk as even if it wasn't banned because no one would pick wario ware anyway).

Tripping is not worse than WW. It happens so infrequently that many matches can go without even a single trip!

Also, I'm not against banning bridge of eldin, it's just that the Dedede CG is not a good enough reason by itself. I'm just asking for a better reason.

I think giving two characters instant wins with a single grab is a good enough reason.

And if the official tourney rules are the most fair, then why are they so controversal?

Because all people have opinions, and some don't agree with the official ruleset.

Wobbling is not banned under the official tourney rules yet people keep pushing for a ban on it. It's also unfair that many player's worst stages are banned for them allowing them to gain a massive advantage instead of them being forced to adapt to the stages. In Melee, I could easily prove fd ban-worthy with wobbling.

I'm done with this. That argument fails, and even if it didn't fail, it would make all stages banned except for icicle mountain.

Quoting the Dedede CG to ban stages is like quoting wobbling to ban stages. The only difference is scale of characters, the fact that there are 4 characters who can't escape Dedede CG'ing, while only Ice Climbers can escape wobbling and they are also the only characters that can do it.

You just proved my point. D3 CG only means instant death for 4 people on every stage, while wobbling means instant death for all characters (but IC's) on all stages.

The reason that wobbling could pose as a possible ban-arguement for fd is that it's nearly impossible not to get grabbed on fd (especially for Bowser, I will never accept fd as fair enough for starter unless Gimpyfish beats Wobbles on fd), if the Ice Climbers player is good enough, it would be impossible. Also, wobbling isn't all that easy to do, but that's irrelevant. Another arguement against fd (this one can only apply to remove it from starter unless combined with wobbling) is projectile spamming, need proof? here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52o9pQVp5RE

1. Wobbling is avoidable because you just have to keep the IC's away from each other.
2. Bowser is simply at a disadvantage against the IC's.
3. KEN DID NOT LOSE TO PROJECTILE SPAMMING. HE LOST TO A SUPERIOR PLAYER. NOTICE AT THE BEGINNING: FORWARD TRIES TO SPAM LASERS, BUT KEN JUMPS OVER THEM OR SHIELDS THEM.

As you can see, Ken lost to projectile usage on fd.

NO

This has obviously been proven in Melee, but it has yet to be proven in Brawl. More evidence in Melee is that Fox, Falco, Sheik, and Peach all have spammable projectiles (maybe minus sheik, she has a projectile, but it's level of spammability is debateable).

Please go away. No one else share's your opinion. It's just plain stupid.

As for the custom stages, it would be possible, but unlikely because not everyone could download the stage to practice.

 

[Mic_128]

Mic: Not everybody has an SD card, not everybody has access to move the stage from the internet to their Wii. This basically prevents custom stages from becoming a standard and it creates a divide between players as some may not have practice on these stages.

Which is why we could easily have a "how to make" picture or something for the stages. And If we ever do, there would have to be a gap period of a month+ for people to actually practice/get used to it before it would be brought into tournaments. (we aren't going to just say a day before a tournament "Hay guys new stage go"

And to be honest I'd be hugely suprised if at a tournament there isn't at least ONE person with an SD card/wifi. and even if they don't it's what, 5, 10 bucks for a half gig SD card?

 

[SkylerOcon]

I think that a custom stage made for tournaments would be cool. This would open up more options to where we could play on. We have what -- four neutral stages? We need more than that! I'd gladly volunteer to try and make balanced stages for tournament play if we could actually have more than four neutral stages.

 

[x After Dawn x]

We have 4-9 neutral stages, and most tournaments play with 5-6, which is already enough. Melee didn't have a million neutral stages either, and it was an excellent competitive game.

 

[SkylerOcon]

I know Melee didn't, but we could at least try to turn this into a redeeming value for Brawl. Am I the only one who first thought about tournament legal custom stages once the stage builder was announced?

 

[mr gcube]

Asking on behalf of somebody else:

Bridge of Eldin is Banned, yet Green Hill Zone is a Counter?

Green Hill Zone should be in the EXACT same category as Bridge of Eldin (regardless of what category that is), and for the exact same reason.

It seems to me that Eldin is predominantly banned for the walk-offs (LOVE THEM CHAIN GRABS!), and because Green Hill functions very similarly (albeit with curves), it should have about the same status.

If somebody could provide a simple answer ASAP that would be great.
Thanks.

 

[MysticKenji]

GHZ gives you checkpoints to stop CGs.
In addition, Eldin is huge and very campy, so matches there can easily run out the timer.

 

[x After Dawn x]

You can still chaingrab on GHZ. Also, the curved edges screw up auto-cancels and when the stage breaks, it screws everything up even more. And there's some sort of glitch on the level that I'm not currently aware of, but is present in the game.

 

[fkacyan]

I don't think GHZ should be legal, either, but I'm not in the back room and don't know what the hell the voters were thinking.

 

[Oracle]

You can still chaingrab on GHZ. Also, the curved edges screw up auto-cancels and when the stage breaks, it screws everything up even more. And there's some sort of glitch on the level that I'm not currently aware of, but is present in the game.

But don't lylat and YI screw up autocancels, too? But the CG's are the main problem, but the checkpoint's can stop them.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Just chaingrab the other way then...

 

[AlexX]

Just chaingrab the other way then...

Doesn't work that way. If Falco is chaingrabbing someone and a checkpoint gets in the way, he can't simply b-throw them and continue because his b-throw isn't what he chaingrabs with. The only thing he can try to do is get to the other side of the opponent to try and grab them on the other side to chaingrab them again, which allows any half-decent opponent the chance to get out before they're grabbed again.

Same with Dedede. His d-throw only sends opponents in the direction he's facing, and he can't chain with his b-throw.

 

[x After Dawn x]

No, what I'm saying is don't start the chaingrab facing that way. Start it facing the other way. It's not hard, anybody who can chaingrab can do it.

 

[deepseadiva]

...I'm not in the back room and don't know what the hell the voters were thinking.

My thoughts exactly on seeing the stage list and accompanying explanations...

EDIT: *waves hands around in mild celebration*

 

[MRTW113]

Hanenbow as a counterpick is probably not a great idea. The ledges are terrible, and it kills some recoveries, like Ike's. It is also WAY to easy to drown there.

 

[deepseadiva]

Hanenbow as a counterpick is probably not a great idea. The ledges are terrible, and it kills some recoveries, like Ike's. It is also WAY to easy to drown there.

I'm personally pro-Hanenbow. The only real issue with it is stalling - but then that itself was banned, so I don't see the problem...

And you can't drown there at all. >_> The waters not real.

 

[AlexX]

Hanenbow as a counterpick is probably not a great idea. The ledges are terrible, and it kills some recoveries, like Ike's. It is also WAY to easy to drown there.

I play Ike and have never had issues with the ledges. Heck, neither has my Olimar. If anything Skyworld is the one that harms me in the recovery department...

Also... how can you drown? The water is fake.

 

[Oracle]

I don't think he knows that it's not real water yet

 

[Mic_128]

I'm personally pro-Hanenbow. The only real issue with it is stalling - but then that itself was banned, so I don't see the problem...

You can in theory, run around in circles like on Hyrule/Sky Pillar.

Green hill zone isn't as HUGE as Bridge of Eldin, which had a big part in banning of the stage since matches were constantly hitting the 7-8 minute limit consistently. Green Hill can have poeple chain grabbed but both the checkpoint and the ability to break the middle of the stage plus the edges made it counterpick.