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[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

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Arcadenik

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@ i8pie

Why remove a villain of a series just because "we have enough villains"? That is like saying we need to remove females because we have enough of them.

@ Fawfulcopter

I agree that we could do without Falco. I don't see how he is any more or less important than Fox's other sidekicks like Krystal.

@ ryuu seika

I'm not sure Star Fox needs a villain's sidekick like Leon. Sure, he is a chameleon but he could still end up as a Fox clone, too. I always thought that Falco should at least get a gliding ability since he is a bird. That could help make Falco more different from Fox and Wolf. I also wanted Krystal to be a non-clone Star Fox character with her staff. But I fear that even she could still end up as a Fox clone as well. If everyone are going to be Fox clones, we might as well make do without them and just keep the same trio.
 

SuperMetroid44

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And although I rarely get involved in these matters, I don't understand the hate Arcadenik gets.
I dislike him mainly for a couple of reasons.

1. Debates - Usually his debates are too opinionated or don't make sense. Though one can say that's just what I think, it has been shown before (too lazy to go through his posts)

2. Ridiculous Changes - Some things he suggests are completely ridiculous, and is TOO MUCH change. Like sometimes I'm like "does this kid want to change SSB forever" and for the WORSE.

I don't really dislike Arc himself, but I dislike him when it comes to debates like this.

Wolf is NOT the only plausible villain. Leon is perfectly viable and could actually be made into a unique character due to his innate abilities as a chameleon. The fact that he is reappearing in the remake aswell makes this possible and TBH I'd like to see it happen. Once we get one non-clone Starfox character, the rest will likely receive a little more attention to make them more unique aswell. There is no need to ditch anyone.
Leon would be cool, but he has to be like he was in the N64, now he sounds like a freaking... idk, his voice just isn't good. And he's very skinny. :p Though that's a little opinionated, I would still be alright with him in SSB4.
 

SmashChu

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That's precisely the point I was making. Game speed slider in tournies as a point to not have it is irrelevant.
It's a typo. The post should say "because that was the speed used in the ladder."

I just cannot see how catering to the competitive crowd with extra options that are simple to implement, detracts from the randomness and fun of the game. Catering to both crowds improves copies sold. The more balanced and competitive a game can be, the more money you can make off of it because it becomes respected by a larger crowd of gamers. If Sakurai is willing to close the door on extra revenue just to make sure this game doesn't get competitive, then what the heck is MLG going to do? Brawl already has lost player-base in comparison to Melee.
The problem is people think you can appeal to both the top end players and the weaker ones (those people work for Capcom actually). You can't.

The reason is that in order to make the game more accessible, you have to make it easier. Easier to play, easier to get into. All of that. To make it competitive friendly, you have to do the oppoiste. Make it harder. Even if you don't make the controls harder, you make the game elements hard (i.e. faster) or add new elements you have to master (or get beat by everyone). People will leave your game as the game becomes dominated by small group of players that are too good, and no one else can find it fun.

Basically, you have to chose. The right chose is to make it accessible since it makes the game sell more which makes money. The only reason we have games in the first place is for money.

This is stupid, Smashchu. So what if a hunting dog can or cannot take on Mario or Donkey Kong. That is irrelevant. No one were complaining when Jigglypuff took on Donkey Kong or even the King of Evil himself, Ganondorf. And yet everyone wants Ridley to get in Smash. Do you see Jigglypuff taking on Ridley? Huh?!
You missed the point.

The point is that the duck hunt dog can't fight. It's a dog. People don't associate dogs with fighting.

If we could have Duck Hunt Dog because he is a dog and can fight, then why not a Nintendog. Nintendogs is far more popular and might bring it new players. But Sakurai specifically didn't add them. Because they couldn't fight.

Please, Smashchu. Do not use the "do you see X take on Y?" as an argument against a character. It is a weak argument. It isn't even an argument. It is just a logical fallacy called "appeal to emotion" and designed to make me think "oh, you are right, Smashchu, hunting dogs couldn't take on Mario or Donkey Kong because they are all regular dogs with no super powers."
Nope.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-emotion.html

Saying "X can not do Y," is not an emotional appeal. There was nothing emotional about it. How did you even get to that in the first place?

Again, Duck Hunt Dog is a terrible idea for a character. it's not just that he can't fight, it's that no one really wants to play as him anyway. Heck, as far as we know, the character doesn't even have a name.


...*facepalm*

That, is a real life hunting dog. The Duck Hunt Dog (or whatever you wish to call him), is, no matter what you say, a video game character. Video game characters aren't made to follow realistic rules. That's like saying Mario can't beat Bowser because Mario is a human plumber and Bowser is a gigantic turtle/dinosaur thingy.
It's not uncharacteristic for Mario to beat Bowser. Mario is clearly the Hero in the Mario games. He is suppose to win over a mighty foe.

The dog just hops in the grass and chases ducks (like any hunting dog does). It's not characteristic of him to start punching and doing silly attacks nor is it normal for him to bite and claw at his foes. But he can laugh and catch ducks. This is why we don't see Link shooting lasers or having Fox wield a battle axe.
 

SuperMetroid44

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If we could have Duck Hunt Dog because he is a dog and can fight, then why not a Nintendog. Nintendogs is far more popular and might bring it new players. But Sakurai specifically didn't add them. Because they couldn't fight..
Exactly, Nintendog can't be playable because he can't fight, heck, I support him and think it will increase SSB's popularity, but like I said. :p

@Arch: but let's say if the Duck Hunt Dog and Nintendog were up to be playable (voting for a poll), what do you think the choice would be? Nintendog obviously due to popularity. :p
 

ryuu seika

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Leon would be cool, but he has to be like he was in the N64, now he sounds like a freaking... idk, his voice just isn't good. And he's very skinny. :p Though that's a little opinionated, I would still be alright with him in SSB4.
N64 Leon was epic and that's why he stands out in my memories. New Leon I can't remember at all, despite having played several games with him in.

There was no doubt in my mind as to which I was suggesting.
 

Flame Hyenard

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N64 Leon was epic and that's why he stands out in my memories.
Maybe it's because of the performance of Rick May in term of voice acting, who voiced him as well as Wolf and General Pepper at the time. His more recent performance in voice acting is the Soldier from Team Fortress 2.

New Leon I can't remember at all, despite having played several games with him in.
The only games where we see Leon again is SF Assault (NGC), SF Command (NDS) and Brawl (no need to name the console). On a sidenote, Leon's voice actor in the japanese version of SF assault sounds like the japanese voice of Frieza from DBZ. You can hear it in this video.
 

DekuBoy

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Wolf is NOT the only plausible villain. Leon is perfectly viable and could actually be made into a unique character due to his innate abilities as a chameleon. The fact that he is reappearing in the remake aswell makes this possible and TBH I'd like to see it happen. Once we get one non-clone Starfox character, the rest will likely receive a little more attention to make them more unique aswell. There is no need to ditch anyone.
Uh, why not just give Wolf more unique moves?
 

Arcadenik

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Smashchu, just because Sakurai said no to Nintendogs doesn't mean all dogs cannot be in Smash. Nintendogs are based on real life puppies. That is why they look like real life puppies. If you were to pit a real life puppy against the likes of Mario and Donkey Kong, well, you know the poor thing is a dead puppy walking. This is likely the reason why Sakurai didn't add Nintendogs as playable characters.

The Duck Hunt dog is not a real life hunting dog. He is an anthromorphic cartoon hunting dog who can walk on two legs (he ran and jumped with two legs in Vs. Duck Hunt) and has opposable thumbs (since he is able to pick up ducks with his paws instead of his mouth like real life dogs do) and can survive getting shot in the face (since he yelled at you for shooting him instead of the ducks in Vs. Duck Hunt). I think that it is more plausible for a cartoon hunting dog to take on the likes of Mario and Donkey Kong than it is for a real life puppy.

Nintendogs may be more popular but they aren't practical as Smash fighters since they are just real life puppies. It would be more controversial if we had Nintendogs playable and Nintendo would be accused of promoting animal cruelty. They would be a joke character, only worse.

Having the Duck Hunt dog playable in Smash will attract negative attention at first, yes. Even Mr. Game & Watch and the beloved R.O.B. received negative attention when they were introduced in Melee/Brawl. But in time, people will forget about that and enjoy the game and some of them might even become fans of the Duck Hunt dog like they did with Mr. Game & Watch and R.O.B. He is a far less controversial choice since a lot of people actually want to hurt him. And he, at least, is capable of fighting on two legs like a humanoid if the developers choose to.

One last thing, popularity is not the only factor. More people wanted Ridley, Midna, and Krystal in Brawl and they got Zero Suit Samus, Toon Link, and Wolf instead. Many people wanted Isaac, Samurai Goroh, and Lyn and they all ended up as Assist Trophies. Even if the majority voted for Nintendogs over the Duck Hunt dog, there is still a good chance the Duck Hunt dog could get in over them because he has moveset potential... kinda like why the Ice Climbers got in over Balloon Fighter, Bubbles, Excitebike, and Urban Champion.
 

i8pie

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@Metroid: When you consider that the maximum a series can have is four characters (currently), yes, two characters is a lot.

@Arc: That's a terribly sexist argument considering how 30+ characters in this game are male :glare: Seriously though we have enough heavyweight male antagonists and series that haven't had any games in some time.
 

ryuu seika

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Maybe it's because of the performance of Rick May in term of voice acting, who voiced him as well as Wolf and General Pepper at the time. His more recent performance in voice acting is the Soldier from Team Fortress 2.
It probably was.

Uh, why not just give Wolf more unique moves?
Because Leon is actually a good character?
Besides, I see no reason why they can't do both.

Maybe bite attacks are a viable option ? Or even better : having a different Final Smash.
Who cares about final smashes? They're only available via items and totally broken.
 

ToiseOfChoice

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You know, I always thought Wolf and Falco were fine as is, Final Smashes aside. And considering the fact that plenty of established veterans see small moveset changes anyway, the whole "boo-urns to clones" bit gets kinda old.


@Metroid: When you consider that the maximum a series can have is four characters (currently), yes, two characters is a lot.
Characters are counted by moveset, and the world's biggest video game franchise is "outrepped" by a considerably smaller one in Brawl.


@Arc: Duck Hunt Dog has about as much moveset potential as the "lost to the Ice Climbers" set. Also it's funny how you say that people will grow to love him. Remember Pichu?
 

Arcadenik

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@ Toise

Have you really pondered about why Pichu isn't popular?

It was pretty clear to me that Pichu was unpopular because he was a Pikachu clone who hurt himself every time he used his special moves.

I think that any character who is an inferior clone of an existing and better character is not going to win a lot of fans.
 

Flame Hyenard

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Agreed. Sonic's Final Smash always felt broken. Even compared to Zelda's and Marth's Final Smashed. At least theirs were limited to one direction. Sonic is just all over the screen.
Yes. The worse is that he cannot SD when doing his Final Smash. Sure, Falco and Wolf are deadly with the Landmaster, but they can SD.
 

Arcadenik

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That, to me, just makes Sonic look like he was hastily added in the game with little to no afterthought on balance, even though he really was added at the last minute.
 

Shorts

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Sorry, Wolf is a decent villian/anti-hero. Besides, you suggest Leon like he can replace Wolf. Which makes no sense. Besides, umm get in line Leon? Can't you see Krystal was waiting here?

As for duck hunt dog/nintendogs arguement. They are plausible, but we have about twenty other characters that deserve a spot over both of them. End of story, moving on.
Like NintenCats<3

I don't like most of the Final smashes. I feel likethey should be derived from some previous game. Agreed?
 

ToiseOfChoice

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@ Toise

Have you really pondered about why Pichu isn't popular?

It was pretty clear to me that Pichu was unpopular because he was a Pikachu clone who hurt himself every time he used his special moves.

I think that any character who is an inferior clone of an existing and better character is not going to win a lot of fans.
I probably should've clarified:

Pichu is, to date, the only character in Smash Bros. to have a negative reputation around the time of their Smash debut. Also easily the least popular character in the series' history and the only character to have zero indication of returning for Brawl.

Yes, the reasons for people not liking Pichu differ from the reasons why they don't like Duck Hunt Dog (unless it's "he's an annoying ****er"). Doesn't matter; the point is, people hate them. The only saving grace you seem to be able to provide is that the Dog might not horribly suck if you completely reinvent him. Of course by that point, you might as well pick characters out of a hat.

By the way, do you happen to sell old jalopies for a living? It sounds like something you'd be into.


@edit for Shorts: which ones do you not like? I'm pretty sure most of them come from source games
 

Shorts

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@edit for Shorts: which ones do you not like? I'm pretty sure most of them come from source games
Peach: I never have seen her use peach based moves.
Zelda/Sheik: One of them can have it, no doubles.
Toon Link: Copying isn't cool.
Lucas/Ness: Copy.
Pikachu: I feel like they could have made this much cooler. Too crazy and spastic.
Jigglypuff: whenever has she been able to become titanic? Never.
Sonic: Too hectic and crazy.
Luigi: Like....WTF?
Fox/Falco/Wolf: Repeates isn't cool.

The way some of these work is cool, but it doesnt fit. It is just out of place, IMO
 

SuperMetroid44

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Jigglypuff's final smash is just proof that they really didn't care about Jigglypuff. Like I'm sorry, but it's ridiculous. Jigglypuff is severaly flawed and final smash isn't that great either. Like for it's useless on big stages, it's good on small stages, however, if you know how to avoid it, it's basically useless. Like I guess that's just me, but still. Don't get me wrong, Jigglypuff is my favorite charcter. :p I just think he deserved more.
 

Arcadenik

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Luigi - Sakurai tried to justify this by saying that Luigi got this power by living in Mario's shadow for so long. Umm, what about the vacuum from Luigi's Mansion? There was no need to make up this one.

Peach - Sakurai apparently thought it was a good pun on her name by making her drop peaches. No, what about Psych Bomb from Super Mario RPG? Or even a mix of Joy and Rage from Super Princess Peach where she becomes a flaming tornado?

Bowser - it was fine in Brawl but I would like something from Bowser's Inside Story in the next game. Maybe one where he summons his goons?

Donkey Kong - it was fine in Brawl but I kinda wanted him to start throwing barrels like in the original arcade.

Wario - it is fine in Brawl but I wish he would get something based on Wario Land games like transforming into Vampire Wario.

Zelda and Sheik - Zelda's is fine as is because she actually used Light Arrows. It is Sheik who needs work. Maybe something with a Sheikah item? But I don't see how you would make the Lens of Truth or the Mask of Truth useful in Smash. :-p

Ganondorf - it is fine in Brawl but I wanted Ganon from the SNES game or even the one from Ocarina of Time, not the one from Twilight Princess

Toon Link - he needs the Four Sword so he would be able to split into four Links for a short time

R.O.B. - it is fine in Brawl but I wanted something from Stack-Up. Remember those colored blocks? We got something from Gyromite, why not Stack-Up, too?

Falco and Wolf - the bird gets the Arwing and the wolf gets something else... I don't think Star Wolf even has Landmasters.

Pikachu - it is fine in Brawl but I think it could easily replace either his side or up special moves. I would like to see him get Surf for his Final Smash as a homage to the Surfing Pikachu in Pokemon Yellow.

Jigglypuff - this is yet another proof that she was a last minute addition with little afterthought to her Final Smash. Why does Peach get a Final Smash that would have been a better fit for Jigglypuff? I think Hyper Voice would probably suffice.

Ness and Lucas - one of them keeps the PK Starstorm. Unfortunately I don't know much about the gameplay in the Mother series to make suggestions.

Sonic - this is already overpowered as is. How about the player loses control of Super Sonic and he automatically attacks everyone on the screen like Kat & Ana and Latios & Latias do?
 

Arcadenik

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None of them knew PK Fire nor PK Thunder, apparently. But what do I know? I never played EarthBound. Nintendo really needs to release it on the Virtual Console already.

Didn't Lucas's trophy say that he asked Kumatora to teach him PK Starstorm when he found out he was going to be in Brawl? Oh, yeah... I think Pit's trophy said something similar...
 

SmashChu

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Smashchu, just because Sakurai said no to Nintendogs doesn't mean all dogs cannot be in Smash. Nintendogs are based on real life puppies. That is why they look like real life puppies. If you were to pit a real life puppy against the likes of Mario and Donkey Kong, well, you know the poor thing is a dead puppy walking. This is likely the reason why Sakurai didn't add Nintendogs as playable characters.

The Duck Hunt dog is not a real life hunting dog. He is an anthromorphic cartoon hunting dog who can walk on two legs (he ran and jumped with two legs in Vs. Duck Hunt) and has opposable thumbs (since he is able to pick up ducks with his paws instead of his mouth like real life dogs do) and can survive getting shot in the face (since he yelled at you for shooting him instead of the ducks in Vs. Duck Hunt). I think that it is more plausible for a cartoon hunting dog to take on the likes of Mario and Donkey Kong than it is for a real life puppy.
"It's so different because the dog from Duck Hunt (which no one cares about) is actually a cartoon, so it's totally OK now right?" Mario is cartoony. Why don't we make up what ever moves we want for him?

It doesn't matter how cartoony he is. He is just a DOG. The thing you don't understand is you have to stay true to the character. You can't go and make stuff up. Go back and play Duck Hunt. In the game, the dog acted like any other dog, just that he picked up ducks and laughed if you messed up. Nothing he does in the game can be turned into fighting moves nor does it constitute a fighter. It wouldn't make sense for him to throw punches because that's not what he does (why you also don't see weapon characters punch a lot). You can't have him use the light gun because that would be very much outside his character. You can't make him bite or scratch as he never did that and would be changing him from a funny dog to an aggressive dog.

Based on your logic, we might as well have K.K. Slider as a character because he is a cartoon dog. Animal Crossing is more popular anyway.

Nintendogs may be more popular but they aren't practical as Smash fighters since they are just real life puppies. It would be more controversial if we had Nintendogs playable and Nintendo would be accused of promoting animal cruelty. They would be a joke character, only worse.
And somehow a dog that has only appeared in one game that did just about as much as the Nintendogs is somehow more practical.

Having the Duck Hunt dog playable in Smash will attract negative attention at first, yes. Even Mr. Game & Watch and the beloved R.O.B. received negative attention when they were introduced in Melee/Brawl. But in time, people will forget about that and enjoy the game and some of them might even become fans of the Duck Hunt dog like they did with Mr. Game & Watch and R.O.B. He is a far less controversial choice since a lot of people actually want to hurt him. And he, at least, is capable of fighting on two legs like a humanoid if the developers choose to.
Sakurai's first rule on adding characters is they have to make people want to play the game. Adding in a character who attracts negative attention would go against that. Hell, if we are going to do that, might as well have Tingle instead of some generic dog.

Neither Mr. Game and Watch nor R.O.B. were hated. Fanboys didn't like R.O.B. because they wanted X character, but everyone else was OK with it and expected something like that.

Also, explain how he is capable of fighting on two legs?

One last thing, popularity is not the only factor. More people wanted Ridley, Midna, and Krystal in Brawl and they got Zero Suit Samus, Toon Link, and Wolf instead. Many people wanted Isaac, Samurai Goroh, and Lyn and they all ended up as Assist Trophies. Even if the majority voted for Nintendogs over the Duck Hunt dog, there is still a good chance the Duck Hunt dog could get in over them because he has moveset potential... kinda like why the Ice Climbers got in over Balloon Fighter, Bubbles, Excitebike, and Urban Champion.
What moveset potential!? All he did was catch ducks and laugh at you. What moveset potential does he have. We might as well have Sheriff from the old arcade game then.

Looking at the Brawl roster, it was really crammed. I can't think of a character that shouldn't be in there (outside of the third party characters, but they are understood to be guest and be different). Some characters are going to be glossed over, like Ridley. It doesn't mean they can't be in the next game, where they have room for them.

On the other characters, Krystal is less known than Wolf as the newer games (which she is in) haven't reached as many people. Midna was a one shot character.

The other thing is, if we are going to say that the dog has potential like Urban Champion or Balloon Fighter, why don't we just use them instead? They would be easier to make a moveset out of and fighting makes sense for them?

These post are about Arcadenik liking a characters no one else cares about and then getting upset when no one agrees with him about said character.
 

Flame Hyenard

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Falco and Wolf - the bird gets the Arwing and the wolf gets something else... I don't think Star Wolf even has Landmasters. Wolfen for Wolf. Kind of obvious.

Ness and Lucas - one of them keeps the PK Starstorm. Unfortunately I don't know much about the gameplay in the Mother series to make suggestions. PSI Rockin Omega for Ness. Skip until 6:22 to see how it looks like.

Sonic - this is already overpowered as is. How about the player loses control of Super Sonic and he automatically attacks everyone on the screen like Kat & Ana and Latios & Latias do? That, or either nerf the power of the Final Smash, or reduces the time spent being Super Sonic (by a few seconds, for example)
/wthcharacterslimitdoesntcountthequote
 

Flame Hyenard

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I have thought of one character that could get an appearence in SSB4 (either as a fighter, as an assist trophy if they exist, or a simple cameo) : Ryu Hayabusa from the Ninja Gaiden / DOA series.

The first 3 Ninja Gaiden were released on the NES, a compilation of the 3 in 1 game named Ninja Gaiden Trilogy for the SNES, and an upcoming appearence in the Dead Or Alive on the 3DS. And since those games are both owned by Tecmo, who also worked on Metroid : Other M, I think he has a chance to be in.

For a moveset (if he appears as a fighter), it would be ninja-based (duh). I don't know much about the Ninja Gaiden series, but there are a few things that I think could work : his Spin Jump, similar to MK's N-Air, and a shuriken that when thrown, goes back and forth until Ryu recovers it. Both of them are power-up he can get in the first Ninja Gaiden. The last thing I would want to see though is him being a semi-clone of Sheik :laugh:
 

flyinfilipino

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"It's so different because the dog from Duck Hunt (which no one cares about) is actually a cartoon, so it's totally OK now right?" Mario is cartoony. Why don't we make up what ever moves we want for him?
This whole argument is stupid, but:

A) Captain Falcon, Fox, Falco, R.O.B. etc. had their movesets (mostly) completely made up, and most characters' moves are made up so they can fight anyway
B) Mr. Game and Watch was not from a fighter, nor are most of his moves orignally envisioned to be used to "fight" with anyway
C) R.O.B. is just a toy, but Brawl turned him into a fighting robot with made up moves and abilities

But seriously, this argument is pretty dumb, and maybe you should both just agree to disagree. :bee:
 

SmashChu

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This whole argument is stupid, but:

A) Captain Falcon, Fox, Falco, R.O.B. etc. had their movesets (mostly) completely made up, and most characters' moves are made up so they can fight anyway
B) Mr. Game and Watch was not from a fighter, nor are most of his moves orignally envisioned to be used to "fight" with anyway
C) R.O.B. is just a toy, but Brawl turned him into a fighting robot with made up moves and abilities

But seriously, this argument is pretty dumb, and maybe you should both just agree to disagree. :bee:
You missed the point. None of the moves Fox, Falco or Captain Falcon have are out of place. They fit the character. Heck, the characters in Brawl and Melee are all true to their respective game.

Arcadenik wants to believe that just because he is "cartoony" that you can do what ever you want, including what ever you want.

B is wrong because you can kind of do what ever you want with Game and Watch. There wasn't a single "Mr. Game and Watch," until Melee, but characters who looked like him. Melee defined him and even still, he uses a lot of stuff from the games, including weapons. The characters also did thinks like tame lions and even boxing. I've already gone over C.

Of course, the dog isn't a good idea for a character anyway.
 

flyinfilipino

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You missed the point. None of the moves Fox, Falco or Captain Falcon have are out of place. They fit the character. Heck, the characters in Brawl and Melee are all true to their respective game.

Of course, the dog isn't a good idea for a character anyway.
Do they really fit the character, though? None of those guys are known for their hand-to-hand combat (throw Peach and Zelda into this category too) (and Fox might be an exception sure), but they all do it anyway, because this is a fighting game and they were made into fighters for it. You don't need to tell me that combat fits into their roles as mercenaries/bounty hunters. I'm not going to argue for the Duck Hunt Dog's inclusion either way, but if Sakurai wanted him in the game, he could turn him into a fighter with a suitable, creative moveset. "If" being the key word.
 

Shorts

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@TheDuckHuntDog Arguement:



Let us move on to final smash discussion or something.
 

Big-Cat

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I personally liked it where we were discussing MvC3 and the question came up was more or less whether characters "deserve" to be in or is it matter of providing a different playstyle.

That was something that had NOTHING to do with a character's in-series role.
 

Arcadenik

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Here's the proof that the Duck Hunt dog is able to run on two legs and is able to survive getting shot in the face. Maybe it is because he is a cartoon dog like these cartoon dogs. He is based on cartoon dogs, not real life dogs like Nintendogs are. Notice how these cartoon dogs sometime break the fourth wall by talking to the audience? This could potentially be applied to the Duck Hunt dog. The dog could face the screen and literally point with his finger to tell the hunter (the Duck Hunt player) to shoot at that spot. The next thing you know, there is a small gunfire explosion at the spot the dog was pointing at... something like this one.

It doesn't even matter whether the Duck Hunt dog is going to be a playable character or an Assist Trophy or not in the game at all. The point I am making here is that there is moveset potential for the Duck Hunt dog if creative licensing is being used (which is what I did). Just because Sakurai said Balloon Fighter doesn't have the moveset potential doesn't mean he was absolutely correct in that assessment. Have you seen any fan-made movesets for Balloon Fighter? Just because his balloons popped doesn't mean he is useless (his words, not mine) when he could inflate new balloons like the enemies could do in his game. Why not? He gave Topi's ice ability to the Ice Climbers for their B move when they never showed any signs of having ice powers in the NES game. This is the same man who made Olimar playable in Brawl. Olimar is pretty useless when he loses all his Pikmin but he can pull out new Pikmin. I think Sakurai was just making up excuses for not adding Balloon Fighter... probably the same thing you, Smashchu, are doing now.

I am not even trying to convince anyone here to change their minds and start supporting the Duck Hunt dog. I know everyone here has already made up their minds with the Duck Hunt dog and they already have their favorite characters they want to see in Smash before the Duck Hunt dog anyway. What I am trying to do here is to show that the Duck Hunt dog could potentially work as a Smash fighter while staying true to Duck Hunt and what hunting dogs do. It is Smashchu who is saying otherwise and I am defending my points. I think we are both stubborn and have strong opinions on this debate but truth be told, this isn't going anywhere. Can we please do what flyinflipino asked us to do and just agree to disagree? I want Duck Hunt Dog as a playable character and Smashchu don't. Period.

One last thing, Shortie, I implore you to not tell us to shut up when you cannot even come up with a topic to shift our attention away from the Duck Hunt Dog argument. If you want to change subjects, just say whatever you want to say about the new subject and don't ask us to do it for you. You want to talk about Final Smashes? Fine with me, so, what do you want to say about Final Smashes? Hmm?

P.S. I like what Kuma did. He is trying to change the subject by talking about Marvel vs. Capcom instead of just asking us to change the subject to Marvel vs. Capcom.
 

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I personally liked it where we were discussing MvC3 and the question came up was more or less whether characters "deserve" to be in or is it matter of providing a different playstyle.

That was something that had NOTHING to do with a character's in-series role.
But I feel like cutting out "In-series role" is something that we shouldn't over look. Not totally. I agree that when you look at....erm Toad and Bowser Jr. We tend to talk about more "deserving" but I think "In-Series Role" is important as well. It's a lot of characters major reason for being in the game already right? For example, take away Zelda's role, and she is useless. Just a character with sprites that simple stand, turn, and walk. No attacks.

What is even the difference between "deserving" and "In-Series Role" isn't deserving like the major cataogry, and in series role a sort of sub catagory we look at for each character?
 

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I'm not saying to ignore the in-series role. A major concern that is commonly ignored in this thread is whether or not a character will bring something new to the game. Take a look at the majority of the characters in the series. They all play differently whether it be due to divergent evolution like Mario and Luigi, Fox and Falco (Wolf's more like the Gouken of these two), Link and Toon Link, and Ness and Lucas or just their general design like Zelda, Sheik, Peach, Capt. Falcon, Mr. Game and Watch, etc. I'm not counting Ganondorf for the former because he should've gotten a revamp in playstyle.

The debate started with Megaman not being in MvC3 because, despite his popularity and demand to be in the game, the developers felt that they could not come up with an exciting playstyle that was up to par with the rest of the MvC3 cast while maintaining his identity and not seeming like a combination of different boss attacks.
 

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Hmm... "in-game role" and "deserving" are pretty different to me. Objectively, every character has a "in-game role" but subjectively, some characters are "deserving" and some are "not deserving". Do you guys get what I am saying? Let me make an example. Toad and Koopa Troopa have in-game roles but Toad is deserving and Koopa Troopa is not deserving.

The debate really begins when we start comparing Toad with Bowser Jr. Both have in-game roles, yes, but which one is more deserving? Toad is one of Mario's sidekicks and Peach's #1 Mushroom Retainer and he has been in almost all Mario games since Super Mario Bros. to the point he is one of the faces of the Mario series. Compared to Toad, Geno is not one of the faces of the Mario series, you know?

Bowser Jr. is Bowser's son and sidekick and he has been in all the main Mario games since Super Mario Sunshine. He also appeared in many spin-off games since his first appearance to the point he is also one of the faces of the Mario series. Compared to Bowser Jr., Fawful is not one of the faces of the Mario series.

This is where subjectivity comes in. Some people support Bowser Jr. because "Bowser Jr. should be in Smash because Smash needs more villains" and "Bowser Jr. is more important than Toad because he has bigger roles than Toad does in the main Mario games". Some people, like me, support Toad because "Toad is the last of the Mario Big 8 to be not yet playable and it is about time he gets in" and "Toad has more playable roles in the main Mario games than Bowser Jr. does and so he deserves it more than Bowser Jr."
 

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I'm not saying to ignore the in-series role. A major concern that is commonly ignored in this thread is whether or not a character will bring something new to the game. Take a look at the majority of the characters in the series. They all play differently whether it be due to divergent evolution like Mario and Luigi, Fox and Falco (Wolf's more like the Gouken of these two), Link and Toon Link, and Ness and Lucas or just their general design like Zelda, Sheik, Peach, Capt. Falcon, Mr. Game and Watch, etc. I'm not counting Ganondorf for the former because he should've gotten a revamp in playstyle.

The debate started with Megaman not being in MvC3 because, despite his popularity and demand to be in the game, the developers felt that they could not come up with an exciting playstyle that was up to par with the rest of the MvC3 cast while maintaining his identity and not seeming like a combination of different boss attacks.

You can easily argue that Luigi, Falco, Ganon, and Lucas could have brought "new things" to the game via a totally non-clone moveset. However I feel like what you are talking about isn't exactly moveset. Afterall, we see movesets at least once a week. Could you more In-depth with what you are trying to say?

What i am getttin is that you would rather discuss a character who would bring a different "feel" to smash, like someone who has sort of a different playstyle...? Could you give examples of characters who brought a new playstyle to smash? I mean because the way i see it, every non-clone character brings a new feel to smash. Am i wrong?

What you are trying to explain is very abstract to me, haha. I want to interpret what you are saying correctly, instead of sitting here and going off on a tangent.
 

Big-Cat

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You can easily argue that Luigi, Falco, Ganon, and Lucas could have brought "new things" to the game via a totally non-clone moveset. However I feel like what you are talking about isn't exactly moveset. Afterall, we see movesets at least once a week. Could you more In-depth with what you are trying to say?
Simply put, I feel that every character should fill some kind of niche of playstyles so as to pull in as many people as possible. With the case of clone movesets, you can consider those as remixes of movesets. That being said, I don't think clone movesets are something that should be done ever so often. If you're going to make a derivative of a character like Sakura to Ryu, you better make sure they play differently enough.
What i am getttin is that you would rather discuss a character who would bring a different "feel" to smash, like someone who has sort of a different playstyle...? Could you give examples of characters who brought a new playstyle to smash? I mean because the way i see it, every non-clone character brings a new feel to smash. Am i wrong?
You're pretty much right. A concern that I think you're missing is that we assume that all these characters we want will all play differently from the established cast when there is no guarantee that the developers will think the same way.

I mean, I could think Kumatora would work perfectly as a C. Viper like character, but they might not see the potential I see.
 
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