[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[Arcadenik]

I am pretty sure "non-fans" (aka children/parents who don't read comic books) recognize MODOK because it is one of the main villains of that Super Hero Squad cartoon.

Hmm, interesting... I just looked up Super Hero Squad website. The main heroes are Wolverine, Silver Surfer, Reptil, Ms. Marvel, Falcon, Iron Man, Hulk, Captain America, and Thor. The main villains are Dr. Doom, MODOK, Mole Man, Juggernaut, Dormammu, Enchantress, Abomination, and Loki.

 

[SmashChu]

I don't really know much about MvC, but it looks like they've already included a lot of the most popular characters that people recognize and like. There are lots of big names, and characters that hardcore Marvel fans, hardcore Capcom fans, and fans of MvC2 would enjoy. Plus they added some other characters for flavor and diversity. What's wrong with wanting to broaden the audience with some lesser known characters along with the big names? No one gives a crap about the Ice Climbers or Mr. Game and Watch, but does that mean Brawl's roster is absolute crap?

First, you don't "broaden the audience," by adding characters the majority of people don't know.

Note that you only mentioned two characters out of a potential roster of 35, plus characters cut from the previous game. Ice Climbers was probably an obscure character, but Sakurai has said they are meant to represent the Famicon (NES) line of games, which people know like Excitebikes. Mr. Game and Watch is not even a real character. He was made up for Brawl (he has never appeared in another game. The closest is the guys from Fire). But the Game and Watch line is not obscure, and is brought back though the Game and Watch Gallery games and the collection on Club Nintendo.

Again, the only way the Smash cast is obscure is if they are old games. Earthbound breaks this rule as does Fire Emblem in the western world. Outside of that, every other character is well known.

And yet I am having difficulty understanding why Smashchu is so dead set against Meowth's inclusion in Smash. Even "non-fans" recognize Meowth because of the anime, too. Go figure.

People recognize Pikachu because it is the mascot of the Pokemon franchise and is the main star of the anime since the first episode.

People recognize Mewtwo because it was the starring Pokemon of the first Pokemon movie.

People recognize Lucario because of that movie starring Lucario and it was the mascot of the 4th gen.

People recognize Jigglypuff because it was that singing balloon thingy that used to put people to sleep in the old episodes of the anime.

People recognize Pokemon Trainer because Red closely resembles Ash Ketchum of the anime and they recognize Ash's Squirtle and Charizard (not so much with Ivysaur but at least it closely resembles Ash's Bulbasaur). Have we found a loophole in the "no anime" rule?

People recognize Pichu because it is a baby Pikachu (rather fitting that it ended up a Pikachu clone in Melee).

People are going to recognize Zoroark because it is the star of that new Pokemon movie starring Zoroark and it seems to be set up as the mascot of the 5th gen.

People recognize Meowth because it is that talking cat who is the third member of Team Rocket and is the second main Pokemon of the anime (after Pikachu) since the second episode.

These few Pokemon actually do stand out from the crowd of 649 Pokemon.

This post just screams "WHAAAAAAAA I WANT MEOWTH!" Truth is, no one cares or agrees with you. Pokemon has 5 unique characters in this game already. I think the Pokemon has enough characters. Recognizable is nice. But do they like him? Tingle is very recognizable.

I am pretty sure "non-fans" (aka children/parents who don't read comic books) recognize MODOK because it is one of the main villains of that Super Hero Squad cartoon.

Hmm, interesting... I just looked up Super Hero Squad website. The main heroes are Wolverine, Silver Surfer, Reptil, Ms. Marvel, Falcon, Iron Man, Hulk, Captain America, and Thor. The main villains are Dr. Doom, MODOK, Mole Man, Juggernaut, Dormammu, Enchantress, Abomination, and Loki.

Most of the ones you've mentioned are actually important characters. Of course, in that line up there are many more suited characters.

The show, from what I've looked at, pretty much has every character you could think off. I would beg the question: is there someone better to fill that roll.

 

[Arcadenik]

Again, you are implying that Pokemon does not need any more characters because "Pokemon has 5 unique characters" and "Pokemon has enough characters". Also, comparing Meowth to Tingle? Are you trying to tell me that Meowth is just as much hated as Tingle is? I am pretty sure Meowth is a popular Pokemon.

Also, you are asking "is there someone better to fill that 'roll'?" That is pretty much the same thing as saying "because of R.O.B., (insert character here) wasn't included in Brawl."

 

[Cuyboya]

in SSB4 they should have Shadow the hedgehog as a playable charecter and instead of how Sonic uses a spring as a recovery, he should use Chaos Control and should have Chaos Spear as a side special and Chaos Blast as a Final Smash!!!
He's basically the only Sonic character worth actually putting in the game besides maybe Blaze the cat...
He's freaking black with red highlights for pete's sake! Almost everyone thinks he's awesome cuz he's a lot more fun to play as then Sonic is and he is reallycommon favorite in Sonic fans hearts and for me is my #2 favorite (my #1 is a secret so butt out!)
He's also a very likeable character and usually is 2nd most rememberable characters from Sonic games and most likely if a person isn't a Sonic fan they have usually at least heard of him before and is the 2nd most remembered by people...
so I just think he would be an excellent addition to the Smash crew (As in the playable charecter crew and not a stupid "assist trophy" which is lame)

EDIT: i know, completely random...

 

[i8pie]

Again, you are implying that Pokemon does not need any more characters because "Pokemon has 5 unique characters" and "Pokemon has enough characters". Also, comparing Meowth to Tingle? Are you trying to tell me that Meowth is just as much hated as Tingle is? I am pretty sure Meowth is a popular Pokemon.

He's saying that just because Tingle is recognizable it doesn't mean he deserves to be in Smash over Toon Link/Young Link/Generic variation of Link.

 

[SmashChu]

He's saying that just because Tingle is recognizable it doesn't mean he deserves to be in Smash over Toon Link/Young Link/Generic variation of Link.

Thank you!

 

[flyinfilipino]

First, you don't "broaden the audience," by adding characters the majority of people don't know.

Note that you only mentioned two characters out of a potential roster of 35, plus characters cut from the previous game. Ice Climbers was probably an obscure character, but Sakurai has said they are meant to represent the Famicon (NES) line of games, which people know like Excitebikes. Mr. Game and Watch is not even a real character. He was made up for Brawl (he has never appeared in another game. The closest is the guys from Fire). But the Game and Watch line is not obscure, and is brought back though the Game and Watch Gallery games and the collection on Club Nintendo.

From my experience, a lot people don't "know" every character in Brawl's roster that well. Those that do know everything about every character are hardcore Nintendo/Smash fans that are going to buy the games no matter what new characters get in anyway. Some people might know all about Earthbound, but not know anything about Zelda, or care for Pokemon, or even recognize Olimar.

That's why all the other less mainstream characters get added; you've already got a lot of the big names, and now you can try to reach out to other fanbases.

 

[Arcadenik]

Thank you!

You still haven't explained why you are comparing Meowth to Tingle.

And the fact you thanked him for saying that adding Tingle over yet another version of Link says a lot about you. So we have to have three Links just so we wouldn't have Tingle ruining the pretty little roster forever... because you know, once a character is added to the roster, that character have to be in all the future Smash games from then on (because no one likes to remove characters). Yeah, we should totally prevent Tingle from getting in the roster.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

Something random I thought about last night: what if they decided to go in a completely different graphic direction for SSB4? I was thinking if they did cell shaded 2D like they did with Wario Land: Shake It. That game was like playing a cartoon and I personally think its style would fit very well in the Smash Bros universe.

I approve, although Wario wasn't cel-shaded, that was hand-drawn. You really WERE playing a cartoon.

There's a certain visual charisma lost by using CGI over hand-drawn animation, and I think it's readily apparent to most people when you constrast the two:

--

(I've got like 500 more examples but I'm trying to keep this simple)

Despite that, cel-shaded models tend to maintain a good degree of visual charisma and they're pretty flexible. I think it'd work well here, though I only advocate it over hand-drawn animation due to the overall efficiency of computer graphics that the devs are probably reliant on.

I could go on for hours about this, but I'm curious to see what other people think.

Is there an actual character in Monster Hunter or is it that type of game where you create your own character?

The player characters are custom made, but the Felynes were 13th on that Famitsu Character Poll from not too long ago. Plus the armor sets and several monsters are quite popular and seem like they'd work just fine.



I'm kinda skimming the Chu/Arc conversation, but I will mention that a lack of familiarity won't hold a character back in Smash. A lack of appeal most definitely will, however.

 

[Rhubarbo]

The Smash series hasn't really had an artistic identity up until Brawl. The visuals in Smash 64 and Melee were conglamerations of the various series that made up both games. Brawl took on its own, more noir aesthete, probably to reflect the tone of the Sub Space Emissary. I personally didn't mind the art direction of Brawl. With that said, I hope the next Smash game reassumes a more neutral persona. I found the art direction in Brawl took its self too serious some times (see Brawl's Battlefield). I would like the detailed character models to stay though!

 

[i8pie]

And the fact you thanked him for saying that adding Tingle over yet another version of Link says a lot about you. So we have to have three Links just so we wouldn't have Tingle ruining the pretty little roster forever... because you know, once a character is added to the roster, that character have to be in all the future Smash games from then on (because no one likes to remove characters). Yeah, we should totally prevent Tingle from getting in the roster.

In the West, it's generally agreed that Tingle is really annoying though there are some fans. And he's just using it as an example.

 

[Shorts]

I wouldn't mind SSB4 being been hand-drawn. So long as they are visually pleasing. I would rather have this over a more realistic version.

How do you think the whole"going back in time" thing with the Loz games is going to effect the inclusion/style of characters in smash? We have Skyward sword being set before OoT. and a re-release of OoT. How do you think the cast is going to look? More Kyward Sword, Ocorina Of Time, or just Keep that Twilight Princess look?

And why isn't picking characters simple? I'm curious.

 

[majora_787]

I don't think I would like hand-drawn art, but I did prefer SSB and SSBM... where each series had its own subtle art direction with its characters.

I don't know what I'd think if SSB4 took its own art direction separate from Brawl's...

 

[Big-Cat]

I don't think it's gonna affect inclusion one bit. At most, the OOT character will have a boost in popularity, but like everything else, it'll fade with time (lol bad pun). The only thing we've really seen that recent Zelda games affect is the art style of the links. Assuming the cel-shaded style is kept, we'll have SS Link and Toon Link next round. If not, Toon Link would be replaced by the newest child Link artstyle. Mind you however, that the Links and Zeldas in Smash are separate incarnations that are culminations of their canon incarnations.

As to why picking characters isn't simple?

1. When a character is added, a playstyle needs to be determined for them that'll function AND be faithful to the source material.
2. Even though most of the characters are from Nintendo, if Capcom is any indication, they still have to get the OK from the people who work on the series to get them ,in the game.
3. There's the character's fandom and, in some cases like Tingle hatedom to consider, but the latter would probably be ignored for most characters.
4. The characters should bring something new (even if it's a Luigification, but this has to be justified) to the game. No sense in having 8 Mario clones because they're all popular and such a dilemma could probably be solved with alternate characters (basically just different skins on the pre-existing animations).
5. Sometimes all but number 2 is ignored because of personal bias (i.e. Ice Climbers and Mr. Game and Watch).

 

[majora_787]

But they do obey #4. The only one I could think of that only really follows 4 is Luigi... Falco, who isn't really even a clone anymore, isn't obligatory. And Lucas, who kinda is obligatory, isn't a clone.

 

[Cuyboya]

I feel ignored completely...
*SOB*
no1 cares about what I had to say about adding Shadow The Hedgehog as a playable character...
(And no, he wouldn't be a clone if they made him like the way I described him to be)

 

[Jaklub]

I feel ignored completely...
*SOB*
no1 cares about what I had to say about adding Shadow The Hedgehog as a playable character...
(And no, he wouldn't be a clone if they made him like the way I described him to be)

Expanding third-party series that are already in Smash is considered as a bad idea here.

 

[Cuyboya]

that's rly wierd...
idk wtfuzz any1 would think of it as a bad idea...

 

[Jaklub]

that's rly wierd...
idk wtfuzz any1 would think of it as a bad idea...

SSB was originally Nintendo only.
Also, I've heard Sakurai described third parties only as guests.

I've said few times I'd like to smash more Sonic furries in SSB4, but that's me

 

[Big-Cat]

But they do obey #4. The only one I could think of that only really follows 4 is Luigi... Falco, who isn't really even a clone anymore, isn't obligatory. And Lucas, who kinda is obligatory, isn't a clone.

Lucas is really only a clone is the sense that his UAir, FSmash, and specials and Final Smash are similar to Ness. Other than that, they play completely differently. While Luigi is the Ken to Mario's Ryu, Lucas is really more of the Gouken to Ness' Ryu.

 

[ryuu seika]

idk wtfuzz any1 would think of it as a bad idea...

The main reasons given are that more Sonic characters mean less other characters and that smash "isn't about 3rd parties" so there should be a limit to them.

 

[Jaklub]

The main reasons given are that more Sonic characters mean less other characters and that smash "isn't about 3rd parties" so there should be a limit to them.

If Nintendo finally decides to create a proper game console that's up to standards set by competitors (like it was back in 16-bit times), the "more 3rd parties means less 1st parties" shouldn't really be a problem.

 

[ryuu seika]

I don't know about you but I don't see the need for ridiculous graphics capabilities when N64 and gamecube games look better than most modern ones.

 

[Big-Cat]

lol wut?

10wtfs

 

[Shorts]

I don't know about you but I don't see the need for ridiculous graphics capabilities when N64 and gamecube games look better than most modern ones.

Agreed. I don't like how brawl looked. I felt it was too realistic, and that made it look gloomy in some instances.


On a totally different note,


VanillaWare and Nintendo

Are they "close" in anysense of the word? Like Nintendo is to Square Enix? (on a smaller scale of course)

i would love to see Momohime from Muramasa The Demon Blade have a chance in smash.

 

[SuperMetroid44]

Hey guys, what are we talking about now? Need details.

 

[Big-Cat]

Well, we were talking about the inclusion of characters in terms of gameplay rather than just popularity which started from Megaman's exclusion in MvC3; then, Chu twisted my position as saying I want Nintendo to do it exactly as Capcom does it due to his sheer bias for anything Nintendo. Arc got in the conversation and took it off my hands.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

Surprised at the amount of people who didn't care for Brawl's art style. It's no Wario Land or Punch-Out, but it's definitely among the best examples of 3D modeling outside cel-shading. Maybe you guys forgot about Down syndrome Peach or bug-eyed Link.

If Nintendo finally decides to create a proper game console that's up to standards set by competitors (like it was back in 16-bit times), the "more 3rd parties means less 1st parties" shouldn't really be a problem.

3rd parties are difficult to include due to legal matters and time constraints, not system power and memory.

Also half of the reason people don't want Shadow the Hedgehog in is because he's a terrible character from a zombie series.

N64 and gamecube games look better than most modern ones.

You know, you could just say "my brain is stupid, don't read anything I write ever" and it'd save you quite the hassle.

VanillaWare and Nintendo

Are they "close" in anysense of the word? Like Nintendo is to Square Enix? (on a smaller scale of course)

Nope, largely due to how new/small they are. Maybe in time though, supposing they grow.

 

[Zyns]

Dixie Kong would be a good charecter, Her hair adds a whole bunch of possibilities and can be used for almost every situation (IE: Attacks, Grabs, Recovery)

 

[Jaklub]

I don't know about you but I don't see the need for ridiculous graphics capabilities when N64 and gamecube games look better than most modern ones.

Both N64 and Gamecube had good graphics and I'm not talking about them anyway. What they couldn't do is to handle as huge games as did their competitors (GC didn't have this problem as big as N64, but it's still a fact). What is N64 cart's 64MB compared to ~600MB on a CD?
Now Wii is much weaker than PS3 and Xbox 360 in hardware.

There shouldn't be many legal problems about expanding the series that are already in Brawl. Bigger problem is different 3rd party series (like Megaman).

Also half of the reason people don't want Shadow the Hedgehog in is because he's a terrible character from a zombie series.

ya know, I don't want Shadow in either. ;p I was talking about Robotnik and other less or more annoying chars

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

Both N64 and Gamecube had good graphics and I'm not talking about them anyway. What they couldn't do is to handle as huge games as did their competitors (GC didn't have this problem as big as N64, but it's still a fact). What is N64 cart's 64MB compared to ~600MB on a CD?
Now Wii is much weaker than PS3 and Xbox 360 in hardware.

We're at a point now where graphical increases aren't very noticeable unless you A) try to make your game as visually real as it gets, or B) include some function like 3D that ramps up the display process. Implementation is what matters here, not limitation.

There shouldn't be many legal problems about expanding the series that are already in Brawl. Bigger problem is different 3rd party series (like Megaman).

Shouldn't, but there are. The whole process is about settling on what specific things can show up and at what cost. Add in time constraints and the intent to focus on Nintendo series rather than Sega/Konami/Capcom/whoever and you've got a pretty strong indication that Sonic's friends won't be playable ever.

ya know, I don't want Shadow in either. ;p I was talking about Robotnik and other less or more annoying chars

That's not much better!

 

[ryuu seika]

You know, you could just say "my brain is stupid, don't read anything I write ever" and it'd save you quite the hassle.

The problem is, I'm not the only one. Most people are stupid enough to ignore such posts.

 

[Jaklub]

We're at a point now where graphical increases aren't very noticeable unless you A) try to make your game as visually real as it gets, or B) include some function like 3D that ramps up the display process. Implementation is what matters here, not limitation.

Graphics are not the main problem, the power and space is.
Wii is weaker than the other consoles. It's a fact, sadly.

Shouldn't, but there are. The whole process is about settling on what specific things can show up and at what cost. Add in time constraints and the intent to focus on Nintendo series rather than Sega/Konami/Capcom/whoever and you've got a pretty strong indication that Sonic's friends won't be playable ever.

Sounds like an argument that makes sense, finally.

That's not much better!

By saying "much" you actually say it is still better, even if not much. :D

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

Graphics are not the main problem, the power and space is.
Wii is weaker than the other consoles. It's a fact, sadly.

Power and space for what, more characters? Half of Brawl's disc space was movies and there's no single character the Wii couldn't handle.


Robotnik is cool in my book if he goes by Robotnik and looks at me when I hit him.

 

[DekuBoy]

The only problem technically with Brawl was the loading times. And yes Robotnik please.

 

[Jaklub]

Power and space for what, more characters? Half of Brawl's disc space was movies and there's no single character the Wii couldn't handle.

MOAR STUFF, to be precise. In the game and in the gameplay (more than 4 players yay).
This includes characters, stages, music, trophies, stickers, crap and whatever you can think off.

But, right now I thought Nintendo probably wouldn't really use that anyway.

 

[UberMario]

As has been said, there was PLENTY of room for new characters, stages, and music. The reason we got "so little" [we actually got way more than I ever expected, the soundtrack is nearly ten times larger than Melee's] was due to time constraints, they delayed it so many times already that delaying it again would turn off the fans.

 

[Jaklub]

But, right now I thought Nintendo probably wouldn't really use that anyway.

That's the conclusion I've reached.

 

[mystery_dungeon]

Robotnik is cool in my book if he goes by Robotnik and looks at me when I hit him.

Only if Peach goes by Toadstool. <_<

BTW, no doubt you know, but Robotnik and Eggman are both valid names for the good doctor.

 

[majora_787]

Muramasa content would be badace. =P

Anyway, time for Majora Input Time...

I agree that the only reason we didn't get TONS of stuff instead of tons of stuff is because of the SSE. But honestly, my standing on that is this:

The SSE was a great departure and all, but... you know. It's not SSB's shtick. Not its niche. Not its forte. If we wanted an adventure platformer, we'd go play Mario Bros. But we play Smash Bros. because we look for a crossover fighting game with nintendo characters and a few guest surprises. Not to say I despise the idea of straying from the beaten path, I just think that the SSE was a little out-of-character for the series, was really unnecessary, and took up a lot of space that could have been used in many other ways.

Another space taker? Stickers and trophies. I honestly would prefer moar trophies and less stickers. Hell, read my Cards suggestion from some pages ago. That'd be WAY cooler than stickers. The stickers are really only useful for-- guess. The Subspace Emissary.



If we took out the SSE and stickers, we'd probably have even smoother graphics, shorter loading times, a couple more characters, maybe another stage, probably a larger soundtrack. (Do you know how many songs I had to hack into my game because they weren't there? Several.)

Hell, we'd probably have room for DLC. Especially if we get the next gen console for SSB4, and we end up with even MORE room.

Also, one last thing: Failing to set the standards? Nintendo beat Microsoft and Sony to motion control. >_< Don't say they fail to set any standards, we both know that's a lie.

Spoiler

...besides, since when does Microsoft set their own standards, instead of "borrowing" Sony's or Nintendo's?

EDIT: Lol, ninja'd.

I think Robotnik sounds more respectable than Eggman, but I also think he should stay out of smash and let Sonic be special. I also think Peach > Toadstool. Maybe it's the word stool in the name, and the usually related opinions on her as a character?