Official ORIGINAL TWELVE Debate Thread

[Shorts]

Whether or not they're being included for being the original twelve doesn't really matter. They've stayed this long, and some of the "straggler" choices have coexisted with newer characters from their same franchise, and in Jigglypuff's case was kept in favor of an extremely popular choice.

So, I figure they're all coming back.

 

[Niala]

I think the simplest way of stating why I think the original 12 are likely to remain is because I've yet to see any reason why they won't. The series has undergone two full roster updates, including cuts, and yet the 12 of them have remained intact and unaffected by those updates. I think it's unreasonable to believe that will change, particularly without any credible evidence suggesting it will.

 

[Topplox]

In reality there isint much of a problem with original twelve argument. Pretty much all the characters who appeared in the first super smash were all important reps to Nintendo's franchises. The only one that could be argued is Jigglypuff. In reality, as much as Jigglypuff is fun to play and in some ways a pretty original character, it really isn't a very good pokemon rep anymore. When it first appeared she was popular in the anime. Now it really doesn't serve as a great pokemon rep. The only new thing about Jigglypuff is its fairy typing, but really with mega evolutions and Greninja its not like there is a big rush to advertise the 6th gen. That said, Jigglypuff will mostly get in because of its rep in smash.

In some ways, the original its a pretty weak excuse, because it implies that just because they were in at the start, the should never be taken out, even if they are outdated or unnecessary, but really Jiigglypuff is the only one that falls even slightly under that problem.

Characters getting cut in general is pretty much unpredictable. We actually haven't had enough smash bros to have any big patterns. The only character who had their own original move set to ever be cut from the series is Mewtwo, and by the sounds of it, Mewtwo was planned to be in Brawl, however they probably run out of time to put him in. After Mewtwo only a few clones have been cut, like Roy, Pichu, Doctor Mario and Young Link, who were all just clones, that either had no reason to be in the game, or could of just as easily been an alternate skin.

So there is absolutely no telling who could be cut. Smashbros 4 could end up being the point where patterns may emerge and make these sort of patterns easier to figure out.

 

[Cpt.]

It's really not even a problem with Puff being in the original 12. There's is just a problem with pokemon as a whole. It's so difficult to represent because of the vast amount of pokemon and generations they have. Pikachu is obviously a good rep, but every other rep is pretty much up in the air with so many new potential reps coming out each generation. Jigglypuff was a good rep, then wasn't and now kind of is again (fairy type). It just keeps switching on and off with pokemon which is what makes this original 12 thing so difficult to judge.

 

[Topplox]

It's really not even a problem with Puff being in the original 12. There's is just a problem with pokemon as a whole. It's so difficult to represent because of the vast amount of pokemon and generations they have. Pikachu is obviously a good rep, but every other rep is pretty much up in the air with so many new potential reps coming out each generation. Jigglypuff was a good rep, then wasn't and now kind of is again (fairy type). It just keeps switching on and off with pokemon which is what makes this original 12 thing so difficult to judge.

Charizard is the most memorable starter. Pretty much everyone who started with the originals know Charizard. Hell since he made a come back in X and Y he probably became really popular with the kiddies. Two mega evolutions further cement this. I always liked Venasaur more, but its pretty obvious to see Fire Dragon is most popular.

Greninja is pretty much the new Charizard at this point. It ended up being the most popular in the competitive scene and very likely with kids, due to it's sleek ninja design and amazing Hidden Ability. Very likely, Gamefreak will push greninja to the same status as charizard, sadly over shadowing Chesnaught and Delphox. (I will be upset if greninja gets two megas and others are left with one).

Lucario is the new pikachu. It had his own movie, is very powerful, and popular enough to get a Mega It did not need. A lot of people give it a hard time for "Furry" reasons, but popularity is still popularity.

Every pokemon in Smashbros has a pretty big reason to be there. When people say Greninja was a random choice, i disagree. If they had introduced Vileplume or Meowstic as a new character, I would be giving Sakurai quite the look, but thats not the case. Only a handful of pokemon really have the popularity status to have a chance at smash. Jigglypuff's only real reason for being in smash bros is because it was in the original. If Smash Bros Brawl had come in and Jigglypuff had suddenly appeared out of no where, everyone would of probably ******* Sakurai out.

As I said, I dont hate jigglypuff in any disregard. If it's in, i'll probably have fun playing it. But its hard to deny that its the only pokemon out of the group that doesn't have a strong reason for being here.

Here is some food for thought. In "Did you know gaming" on youtube, they claimed that Mewtwo was originally planned to be in the first smashbros. Had Mewtwo been in, it would of had the "original 12" argument going for it. Poor guy.

 

[Cpt.]

Charizard is the most memorable starter. Pretty much everyone who started with the originals know Charizard. Hell since he made a come back in X and Y he probably became really popular with the kiddies. Two mega evolutions further cement this. I always liked Venasaur more, but its pretty obvious to see Fire Dragon is most popular.

Greninja is pretty much the new Charizard at this point. It ended up being the most popular in the competitive scene and very likely with kids, due to it's sleek ninja design and amazing Hidden Ability. Very likely, Gamefreak will push greninja to the same status as charizard, sadly over shadowing Chesnaught and Delphox. (I will be upset if greninja gets two megas and others are left with one).

Lucario is the new pikachu. It had his own movie, is very powerful, and popular enough to get a Mega It did not need. A lot of people give it a hard time for "Furry" reasons, but popularity is still popularity.

Every pokemon in Smashbros has a pretty big reason to be there. When people say Greninja was a random choice, i disagree. If they had introduced Vileplume or Meowstic as a new character, I would be giving Sakurai quite the look, but thats not the case. Only a handful of pokemon really have the popularity status to have a chance at smash. Jigglypuff's only real reason for being in smash bros is because it was in the original. If Smash Bros Brawl had come in and Jigglypuff had suddenly appeared out of no where, everyone would of probably *****ed Sakurai out.

As I said, I dont hate jigglypuff in any disregard. If it's in, i'll probably have fun playing it. But its hard to deny that its the only pokemon out of the group that doesn't have a strong reason for being here.

Here is some food for thought. In "Did you know gaming" on youtube, they claimed that Mewtwo was originally planned to be in the first smashbros. Had Mewtwo been in, it would of had the "original 12" argument going for it. Poor guy.

Mewtwo nooooo! Lucario is only back because of mega evos IMO. It's no where near the "new Pikachu".

 

[Topplox]

Mewtwo nooooo! Lucario is only back because of mega evos IMO. It's no where near the "new Pikachu".

You would be surprised with Lucario. He didnt get the Mega Evolution for nothing. He is very popular, much more then most pokemon. Zoroark is a prime example of this. Zoroark was made to be the next Lucario, that special pokemon you only receive one of in the game who is suppose to be powerful and very unique. But thanks to low defense, an ability that was ruined by the Team Preview introduced in the same gen, and the fact that you couldn't get it without an online event (which was hard because DS online at the time was much more finicky then the 3DS), it all went against him.

Lucario was give a mega and even a special part in the X and Y story, while Zoroark is found in a late game forest. Lucario has his own super powerful signature move that only a few mons (most being legendary) get (Bar one two mons like Togekiss and Mienshao). Lucario is probably advertised more than pikachu in a lot of respects, but Pikachu thanks to the anime and being the pokemon everyone grew up with is the main mascot. Lucario however is not far behind.

I'm not a big fan of Lucario myself. I have never used one. I thought the added steel type wasn't justified (wow you have a spike on your chest, how iconic). But if you follow pokemon, it becomes pretty obvious that Lucario is big, and will probably continue to be abused for its popularity.

 

[Burigu]

I will try to objectively add all arguments on either side to this original post, without doubling up on statements which are essentially the same, and only adding unbias facts.

• The previous three games could be seen as a trilogy, each an expansion of the last, bigger and better, with Brawl intended to be the finale. This new game is a neogenesis.

I am just curious how, where and when the first 3 games are seen as a trilogy, just because the next game doesn't have a subtitle like Melee or Brawl? if that is the case that is not a fact it's an opinion, Sakurai stated it? if not then this "fact" is the weaker of the group

I only bolded those because the construction implies an opinion not a known fact

In some ways, the original its a pretty weak excuse, because it implies that just because they were in at the start, the should never be taken out, even if they are outdated or unnecessary, but really Jiigglypuff is the only one that falls even slightly under that problem.

The only thing about your post that is odd to me, characters shouldn't be cut because they are "outdated" if outdated was a factor then Ice Climbers, R.O.B., Mr. Game and Watch or even Pit (in Brawl era) wouldn't have been in the game from the start

 

[Topplox]

The only thing about your post that is odd to me, characters shouldn't be cut because they are "outdated" if outdated was a factor then Ice Climbers, R.O.B., Mr. Game and Watch or even Pit (in Brawl era) wouldn't have been in the game from the start[/quote]

Yup once again this is probably me just using very poor terminology or just not doing a great job at explaining what I mean. I guess I meant outdated more as in the idea that they arent as important characters as they were back in the day. Captain Falcon and Ness are both still main characters to their franchise, so it makes sense that they would still be in. There really isint any other character in the F-Zero game that could replace CF at this point because he is still the main character of his game (Ness could be argued because of Lucas, but with the customizable moves being introduced I wonder if that could mean Lucas and Ness sharing the same character, just having different skins).

Meanwhile, Jigglypuff doesn't have the same weight. Back in the day it was popular thanks to the anime so it was fair to say Jigglypuff wasn't a bad choice for Smashbros at the time. But now Jigglypuff has pretty much been erased from the anime in general and the only updated tidbit about her is the new fairy typing, which A) dosent really need to be advertised because of what i mentioned earlier, and B) wasent an exclusive change to Jigglypuff so its not like it would change too much for it (Though i bet if Jiggles is in, we can expect a damaging version of her Up B, with it using Disarming Voice, rather then Sing through custom movesets.)

Back in the day, Jiggles made sense, there were only 150 mons so you didnt have to do too much searching for something iconic. Now we have over 700 and 4 Pokemon who all have very significant reasoning for being in smashbros. Thats what I meant by "outdated" which was once again bad terminology on my part.

Even with everything I have brought up, I fully expect Jiggs to be in, simply because the "12 Orginal characters" argument has up till Brawl, held up.

 

[Topplox]

Actually because it can slightly be attached to this subject (in a way), I am gonna give a shot at explaining my Ness/Lucas theory here as well (I would'nt know if I would put this in the Ness threads or Lucas threads).

I have a hunch that Ness and Lucas this time around could end up being the same character this time just simply one being an alternate skin. I am in no way saying Lucas is a clone but there are a few reasons to why this could be plausible.

1. Skins seem to be a rather big thing this time around. I dont think every character will get one, but Lucas and Ness look similar enough where it would be very easy to make Lucas an skin of Ness or vice versa.

2. Customizable moves seem to be another upcoming big thing, which may lend a bit of a hand to this theory. From what we saw at the last direct, we can so far make two assumptions. One is that every B move will very likely have at least one or two variations of the orginal (ide imagine 2 for every B move on every character but who knows). Second is that while most of these moves are changed or altered versions, so far it seems that the animations for the moves do not change. Mario doesn't make a new animation for throwing a large or small fireball, kirby does the same open mouth expression but blows ice instead of suck up opponents.

Lucas and Ness shared very very similar B moves in this regard and all of which could very easily be turned into customizable moves, each being slightly altered versions of each other (PK Freeze and PK Flash are probably the most different, but could be pretty easy to implement as a separate version of each other)

A lot of people would argue that this would mean that they would be cutting out a completely diffrent A move set from at least one of the characters, which yes I agree, is a good argument for why they would'nt be the same character. However, it would make much less work for Sakurai when you think about it. Instead of having to worry about balancing two different similar characters, he could focus on a single one, and keep the excess B moves for the custom move's, which is already being implemented so no loss there. This would not only keep both Lucas and Ness in the game in their own way, but give a better chance for someone like Masked Man or Porky to be introduced in the game without cluttering the over all roster.

Another argument against this might be the fact that we have a much more of a clone character already in the game through Toon Link. Toon link is a good example (and a poor one, because god damn he has enough moves in his own game to have his own move set). There is one slight difference for this one that could explain why he wasn't cut. Unlike Ness and lucas, who very easily could be skins (only have to add a hat and a backpack for one), Link and Toon link share no similarities in their models. It would be pretty much impossible to have a Toon Link skin for Link, without completely screwing around with hit boxs and such (all models so far do very little to screw around with characters original shape). Sakurai probably wanted to keep Toon Link in because he himself has become his own incarnation of link with many games under his belt.

Dont get me wrong, I am not saying I want Lucas cut from the game, nor am I saying his A-moves and B moves make him a clone of Lucas. Simply that there are a few things that could point to this possibility. We dont have any idea of what Sakurai will do. Had I told anyone during Brawl's development that I thought Mewtwo was getting cut, everyone would of probably laughed and mocked me. So don't take this as a personal attack on your main. Just a little speculation that I have been thinking about and was interested to see if anyone had sort of thought of this.

Hope I dont cause any anger with it.

 

[Burigu]

@ Topplox Ok I see then by the way your quote is broken so I have to read to find out you were talking to me, lastly I am not moderator just a friendly suggestion to don't double post

 

[Topplox]

Sorry bout that. Will keep it in mind, thank you.

 

[Banjo-Kazooie]

I do wonder if Jigglypuff got so many fans mostly because of his power in Melee and not for his popularity as a Pokemon. Barely anyone played Pichu because he was so weak, so no one misses him for SSB4 or missed him for Brawl (except the occasional nut).

But yeah, back to the original 12 thing. I mostly want them to cut Jiggs just to disprove this theory that many people tend to cling so hard to lately. And no real hate against Jiggs. Because I know she would probably be so easy to transfer from Brawl and easy to program/design that I dont think she would be taking anyone's spot.

Also, funny no one debates Ness's position. C. Falcon is understandable, no other character from F-Zero can represent that series better than him. For the Mother series there is always the possibility they decide to go with Lucas because he is from the newer game (Ness being more popular in the USA might be irrelevant for Japan). But in the end, at least Ness is in a safer place than Jigglypuff still. I even believe they could bring back both Ness and Lucas and no Jigglypuff.

Either way, any character cut is gonna end in tears from the fans. Original 12 or Brawl newbie.

 

[Topplox]

I do wonder if Jigglypuff got so many fans mostly because of his power in Melee and not for his popularity as a Pokemon. Barely anyone played Pichu because he was so weak, so no one misses him for SSB4 or missed him for Brawl (except the occasional nut).

But yeah, back to the original 12 thing. I mostly want them to cut Jiggs just to disprove this theory that many people tend to cling so hard to lately. And no real hate against Jiggs. Because I know she would probably be so easy to transfer from Brawl and easy to program/design that I dont think she would be taking anyone's spot.

Also, funny no one debates Ness's position. C. Falcon is understandable, no other character from F-Zero can represent that series better than him. For the Mother series there is always the possibility they decide to go with Lucas because he is from the newer game (Ness being more popular in the USA might be irrelevant for Japan). But in the end, at least Ness is in a safer place than Jigglypuff still. I even believe they could bring back both Ness and Lucas and no Jigglypuff.

Either way, any character cut is gonna end in tears from the fans. Original 12 or Brawl newbie.

Very true. No matter what Sakurai does, there is going to be a large group of people who disagree with his decision. There are very few situations where he would make a choice that was absolutely agreed upon by everyone (the closest thing I can think of was the inclusion of Mega Man, but really I bet you anything a small group of people didn't like the choice). I think this Smashbros could be the one where people will need to learn this, that he wont be able to make everyone happy (who can blame him, he has to pack so much information into one little game in a set time limit). Thats why I am not holding my breath or depending on anything 100%, and why most of my posts will always seem so wishy washy. There is no way to tell what could happen, plenty of characters could get cut, or no characters could get cut at all, it all depends on how far Sakurai is able to go with it.

Even with my Ness and Lucas theory from before, another fault you could argue against it is that so far the skins shown off have not been very big changes. Wire frame Mac, is still Mac. Wii Fit trainers have no personality or real character traits so they are interchangeable. And villager skins are an obvious choice, because Villager is just a empty character slate you put yourself into, so giving him/her multiple skins to reflect his game makes sense. The problem with what I suggested above, is that Ness and Lucas or totally different characters, and in that case, would have most likely have to have diffrent names when you change skins (Sakurai probably could see some fans nitpicking if you win a fight as Lucas and the game still refers to you as Ness.). Its not a huge problem and definitely not something I would imagine would be a big issue to program, but still a legit argument to my previous theory. If it did happen, I would imagine they would be shown off in the same update to explain it all.

Point is, people need to understand the pressure Sakurai is under when making this game, and there might come a point where certain characters will be cut. He may need to make cuts so he can fit all the fighters he wants to include in the game. People dont say slots exists, which is true, but every different character needs to be worked on for balancing, and do take up data in the game. So every character that is put in, takes up time and space which gives other characters less of a chance to be put in.

Just try not to believe in anything 100%. If you what you want gets in, you'll be happier and probably more excited, and if it doesn't at least you didn't crush your own spirits by assuming it was definitely had to be in.

 

[SonicMario]

You can say how Ness was almost cut for Melee and how Jigglypuff was lower priority in Brawl. But there's three words regarding cuts until it actually happens: But they weren't.

That's really all that needs to be said. Even if at different points of development there was consideration of removing anyone of the original 12. Even if it was all in sheer luck. None of the Original 12 have been cut. Until this happens, the rosters of the previous two games support the "fan construct" more then it does the opposition to the idea. And will do once more if/when we find that all 12 faces from the original return.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Regardless of what's going on, I do like and hope for the return of the entire N64 cast as they are all awesome.

 

[Gingerbread Man]

Jigglypuff was already on the chomping block in brawl, hence her late addition in subspace.

To me that proves that being a part of the original 12 means nothing. Every iteration of smash the characters will be analyzed for what they are and will be added accordingly.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

Jigglypuff was already on the chomping block in brawl, hence her late addition in subspace.

To me that proves that being a part of the original 12 means nothing. Every iteration of smash the characters will be analyzed for what they are and will be added accordingly.

But she WASN'T CUT. And her being changed to a fairy type adds relevancy.

 

[praline]

Jigglypuff is the only one of the original 12 that should not return. So what if she got a new typing in pokemon? That's barely a reason to keep her playable.

But she WASN'T CUT. And her being changed to a fairy type adds relevancy.

Barely. You can't even catch Jigglypuff until very late in the game.

 

[Topplox]

But she WASN'T CUT. And her being changed to a fairy type adds relevancy.

The addition of fairy type really doesn't add much. They probably wont add much in the way to her moves to reflect its new fairy type anyway. With two Mega's and a starter from X and Y, the new games have had plenty of representation already, its not like they need to push it anymore.

Jiggle's is probably coming back only because of the "original 12 theory" despite that its a pretty poor excuse. At this point Jigglypuff's symbol should be changed from a pokeball to the Smashbros symbol, because its not in the game to rep pokemon as much as it is to rep the original 12. I feel by a relevance stand point, Jiggs should be removed. But what I think and what I expect are two very different things.

 

[Dalek_Kolt]

I think that the seniority argument wasn't really solidified until after Brawl.

Yeah, Ness WAS going to be cut in Melee, and Jiggs looks kinda last-minute addition judging by Brawl, but that was then, and this is now.

And by now, these characters that should be cut by all means and purposes weren't. It would be odd to start excluding them now.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

At this point Jigglypuff's symbol should be changed from a pokeball to the Smashbros symbol, because its not in the game to rep pokemon as much as it is to rep the original 12.

That's an actually pretty interesting and amusing suggestion.

 

[ProjectAngel]

Concerning Jiggs, she did appear in a couple of Pokemon adverts- a Pokemon Art Academy ad and a Vivillion promo ad. She still has some degree of relevance, though not as much as she did before.

It's up to Sakurai.