Official ORIGINAL TWELVE Debate Thread

[pupNapoleon]

This is a battle across many threads, so I figured I would just bring it to its own.
State the case either for or against this being a reasonable argument.
And feel free to vote.

I will try to objectively add all arguments on either side to this original post, without doubling up on statements which are essentially the same, and only adding unbias facts.

I also want to state one more time, this is not about the merit of each individual character in the original twelve as a separate entity, but rather, if the ORIGINAL TWELVE are safe because they are the ORIGINAL TWELVE, the unit.

Original Twelve Means NOTHING

• Fan construct, only recognized (at most) in a single event titled 'perfect attendance,' which merely itself just acknowledges 12 characters had yet been cut
• The previous three games could be seen as a trilogy, each an expansion of the last, bigger and better, with Brawl intended to be the finale. This new game is a neogenesis.
• Not all of the characters are vital, or even relevant to their franchises anymore
• Some of those same said characters 'take slots' of other characters from the series, which could be otherwise seen as oversaturated *even though there are no slots, as stated by Sakurai

Original Twelve Means EVERYTHING

• They have yet to be cut, in any game, even when a couple could have, and reportedly nearly were.
• Sakurai has stated he will try to make few cuts
• All are relevant now, because of Smash Bros

 

[Capybara Gaming]

Jiggly wasn't relevant in Brawl yet she still made it
Falcon hasn't seen a game in 10 years but still made it in Nintendo Land
Ness recently got his games on Virual Console

Preeeeeeeeeeeeeeeety sure they're all comin' back

 

[Morbi]

I feel as though it is one of the more absolute arguments around. It isn't definitively objective, but once you actually contemplate the ramifications of the notion, it becomes pretty apparent that their seniority has a considerable amount of influence.

 

[DoubleYooToo]

Jiggly wasn't relevant in Brawl yet she still made it
Falcon hasn't seen a game in 10 years but still made it in Nintendo Land
Ness recently got his games on Virual Console

Preeeeeeeeeeeeeeeety sure they're all comin' back

Games? Earthbound is only one game. I'd love, love, love, love to see Mother 1 finally see the light of day outside Japan, but I can't see Nintendo doing it. Mother 3 in English is still a pipe-dream.

 

[Oracle_Summon]

Personally, I think they hold a ton of purpose in them.

Think about it, each character that is in there was original, except for Luigi who was the clone.

Each character from that game has their own original moveset (Luigi had his own since Melee).

And seeing as there is no reason to get rid of the characters, that is a reason they won't be leaving any time soon.

 

[pupNapoleon]

I feel as though it is one of the more absolute arguments around. It isn't definitively objective, but once you actually contemplate the ramifications of the notion, it becomes pretty apparent that their seniority has a considerable amount of influence.

To the arguments this statement is derived from... well, what are tey? Why is it an more absolute argument, and what have been the ramifications, the fruits of their influence?

 

[Canuckduck]

The Original Twelve MUST all come back! It's like having a Nickelodeon game without SpongeBob if some of them (that is to say Ness, Captain Falcon, and Jigglypuff) don't come back.

 

[Morbi]

To the arguments this statement is derived from... well, what are tey? Why is it an more absolute argument, and what have been the ramifications, the fruits of their influence?

The argument that they (the Original 12) are to receive priority based on their consistent inclusions in Smash, that their seniority is a prominent aspect of their inclusion in future titles.

It is more of an absolute argument as it is objectively the case as of current, there is an established precedent, albeit there might not necessarily be a correlation.

The ramifications pertinent to their inclusion in each and every title, the vast amount of years (which accrues a player-base), their relevance to Smash, their unique play-styles, etc. I was just using it as a general all-encompassing premise.

 

[Canuckduck]

The argument that they (the Original 12) are to receive priority based on their consistent inclusions in Smash, that their seniority is a prominent aspect of their inclusion in future titles.

It is more of an absolute argument as it is objectively the case as of current, there is an established precedent, albeit there might not necessarily be a correlation.

The ramifications pertinent to their inclusion in each and every title, the vast amount of years (which accrues a player-base), their relevance to Smash, their unique play-styles, etc. I was just using it as a general all-encompassing premise.

That's some impressive technobabble.


I agree with you, the 12 original fighters are all unique, popular Nintendo characters, so they should, indeed, all return.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

Games? Earthbound is only one game. I'd love, love, love, love to see Mother 1 finally see the light of day outside Japan, but I can't see Nintendo doing it. Mother 3 in English is still a pipe-dream.

Typo. Meant game.

 

[AEMehr]

Ness was almost cut in Melee (why does everyone forget about this)
Jigglypuff was very close to not being in Brawl

I don't think it means much to the development team, but I do think the original twelve should return (The one to worry about is Jigglypuff).

 

[Vann Accessible]

Well...

Jigglypuff: JP is consistently popular in Japan, and new its Fairy typing allows it to be revamped and have renewed importance.

Capt. Falcon: Reps the ever important F-Zero series and Falcon Punch meme, even if F-Zero is dead. On the plus side we know Goroh is back as an AT.

Ness: EB is a cult classic recently released on Virtual Console, even though the Mother series is dead, and we have already seen the Franklin Badge and Mr. Saturn items. Lucas could have replaced him in Brawl, but he didn't.

In short, I'm pretty confident they'll all return.

 

[Mega Hawlucha]

The three of them are more or less cult characters for Smash, I doubt they'd remove them. Although Igglybuff > Jigglypuff.

 

[Speculator]

• Fan construct, only recognized (at most) in a single event titled 'perfect attendance,' which merely itself just acknowledges 12 characters had yet been cut
• The previous three games could be seen as a trilogy, each an expansion of the last, bigger and better, with Brawl intended to be the finale. This new game is a neogenesis.

It seems odd to claim the original twelve as a fan construct and then to immediately use a fan construct as a point against them.

Ness was almost cut in Melee (why does everyone forget about this)
Jigglypuff was very close to not being in Brawl

Ness hadn't been in three prior Smash Bros games before Brawl. The Melee roster was also much smaller, and proportionately couldn't have accomodated two Mother characters in the way the Brawl roster did. That would have put it at the same level as series like Star Fox and Fire Emblem and even above series like Kirby, which obviously it is not.

I don't see any evidence that Jigglypuff was ever intended to be cut from Brawl. You hear conjecture that the Brawl development cycle was so packed that they had to cut characters at the last minute, but now they had so much time left over they could add Jigglypuff in too? I'm highly skeptical of any decisions purportedly made during Brawl's development because we simply don't have enough information.

 

[Dinoman96]

I don't see any evidence that Jigglypuff was ever intended to be cut from Brawl. You hear conjecture that the Brawl development cycle was so packed that they had to cut characters at the last minute, but now they had so much time left over they could add Jigglypuff in too? I'm highly skeptical of any decisions purportedly made during Brawl's development because we simply don't have enough information.

I don't think Jigglypuff was going to be cut, but it appears to me that she was a low priority character.

Sakurai said he locked down the roster back in 2005 I believe. My theory is that the Brawl roster (not counting Sonic who was thrown in at the last second) was divided into two groups: the high priority characters and the low priority characters. I think it's safe to say that everyone included in SSE's main story mode were the high priorities, whilst perhaps characters like Roy, Mewtwo, Jigglypuff, Wolf, and Toon Link were always planned to be in, but just not high on the priority list. After the main cast was done, I think Sakurai went to work on the other characters, but only managed to get Jigglypuff, Toon Link, and Wolf in.

Jigglypuff's inclusion in Brawl always felt odd to me. For starters, she's the only one out of the original 12 to not appear in the main Subspace Emissary storyline at all. Usually, Jiggs is amongst the easier, first characters to unlock, but in Brawl she's one of the later ones (IE Complete 20 or more events after completing the Subspace Emissary). Lastly, look at Brawl's character credits. Notice how Jiggs, as well as Toon Link and Wolf, are at the very bottom.

Of course, we don't know the whole story of Brawl's development, but I think there's possibly some evidence that Jigglypuff might of been a later addition to the roster than some other characters.

 

[Deleted member]

The only character from the Original 12 that I can see get cut is Jigglypuff. She could be there for tradition, but I can see her get cut if she is once again a low-priority veteran.

Captain Falcon's series is dormant, but it's still a popular franchise and Falcon is a very popular character. As for Ness, he is the more recognizable and the more popular of the Mother kids. Heck, I doubt that he will be going anywhere since people can now experience his games.

The rest are still some of Nintendo's most popular and iconic characters. I doubt any of these characters would get ludicrously cut.

 

[pupNapoleon]

It seems odd to claim the original twelve as a fan construct and then to immediately use a fan construct as a point against them.

Point one had no support from anything said by Sakurai; point two is based entirely on Sakurai's own statements, the story modes, the clear content within the game, and the news we have received in regards to the development of this game (SSB4),

 

[MasterOfKnees]

If any of them were ever in consideration of being cut I think we'd have seen that in Brawl. The only one who could ever be considered to be cut of the original twelve is Jigglypuff, who's lucky enough to be possibly the easiest character to create.

 

[Mega Bidoof]

Jigglypuff was one of the few Pokémon that was upgraded to a Fairy-type. She is also one of the most iconic Pokémon.

Captain Falcon got his own game in Nintendo Land. He is also pretty iconic.

Ness got his game on the Virtual Console, due to huge fan demand and awareness of his series.


Even if the Original 12 means nothing, they all have some amount of relevancy. And if you're a veteran who is relevant, you're probably gonna stay.

 

[Sarki Soliloquy]

The mention of "perfect attendants" from those event matches in Brawl is enough to refute the claim the the Original 12 is a fan construct. A good marquee of the 12 is always present to line up every new game. They'll never be removed and there's little standing in their way, relevancy notwithstanding.

About Jigglypuff, community reception on its hypothetical cutting is pretty varied with leaning towards inclusion just because of how controversial it could be. Each of the Original 12 are some of the most unique characters in the game and Jigglypuff could bring a lot more power to the table with its Fairy typing. If they brought each of the 12 back and 1 has to be discluded is downright unfair. If 1 constituent falls, that means the rest of them are open to drop out as well (I'm looking at & )

 

[chronomantic]

It is a fan construct in the sense that I don't think it is an absolute rule in which the producers abide. At least not to the original 12 but the original 8, the perfect-attendance crew term came out of a Brawl event and referred to the eight regulars specifically after all. That said their seniority and fan favoritism may influence positively on the outcome of their status in the game.

 

[Sobreviviente]

I dare to say that they will even appear on Nintendo vs Capcom among Marth and G&W.
Sales do not matter to these guys, they are freaking legends for both Nintendo and the smash franchise, they simply HAVE to be in.

 

[Cpt.]

I think that they are all coming back for seniority and seniority alone. Are all of them still good representations of their series? No. Are all of them relevant enough to Smash? Ehhh, I'd argue yes. I don't think there is a reason to keep all of them besides the fact that they were seen as important enough to be called the first Nintendo All-Stars. cut mario

 

[dezeray112]

So far 9 of the 12 originals are already confirmed to return. I think Captain Falcon and Ness are likely to come back and maybe Jigglypuff, although I do feel that her (Jiggs) inclusion is pretty debatle.

 

[Morbi]

I think that they are all coming back for seniority and seniority alone. Are all of them still good representations of their series? No. Are all of them relevant enough to Smash? Ehhh, I'd argue yes. I don't think there is a reason to keep all of them besides the fact that they were seen as important enough to be called the first Nintendo All-Stars. cut mario

I am slightly confused, why wouldn't all of the Original 12 be relevant to Smash? I can not think of a single reason.

 

[kackamee]

I believe the only one that has a slight chance of not coming back is Jigglypuff.

Captain Falcon is the most iconic character in Smash Bros. He's hardly even an F-Zero character anymore, he's a Smash Bros. Original.

I doubt any Mother character is getting cut, but if one were to, I have a feeling it would be Lucas. Ness is a more popular character seeing as how Mother 3 never released outside of Japan and he has seniority (which I think is a factor, though a small one).

Jigglypuff is in the unfortunate spot of being in a franchise which is starting to look oversaturated (in my opinion). This is the only reason I could possibly see Jiggs get the boot and I don't think that's a justifiable reason. Honestly, I believe Jigglypuff would make it back before Mewtwo returns, but I do hope I'm wrong about that.

 

[andimidna]

They're all coming back. The only one that's not 100% definite is Jigglypuff. But while there wasn't much reason to add her in the first place, there's also no reason to take her out now.
At this point, she actually has people that want her in, and a good reason to be in. So she'll be in. But I wouldn't rank her as high as falcon and ness.

 

[HugoBoss]

Just saying, the original 12 policy was inexistent until Brawl, some of the original 12 like Ness were considered to be cut. The reason for Ness staying had nothing to do with seniority. I believe everybody returned in Brawl do to that game being more of a celebration of Ninety's history than a game about fighting with the Nintendo All Stars, which would explain the very odd roster choices. The only time the developers ever acknowledged the original twelve was in two events, which again had to do with Nintendo history, the same for Melee with it's events. If anything, the original 8 have seniority due to probably being the most famous Nintendo mascots period, and normally are revealed first and have been acknowledged by developers outside of event mode.
As for which of the original 12 that has the highest chances of not returning is pretty obvious. It is no longer nearly as popular as it was before in Japan and was never that popular in the US without the anime, which it is no longer featured in as a recurring character which is most likely a big reason why it was in the first game due to the popularity of the anime. Also, this Pokemon is not relevant in the games anymore. Even though it got a type change, so did every other Fairy like Pokemon, you could say it got overshadowed by the others. Also, looking back at Brawl, this character's inclusion is at best very questionable. Normally being the first fighter unlocked, this character was one of the last. This character also had no impact on the story mode at all, despite allof the other original 12 members having huge roles. This character was revealed very close to launch as well despite the other veterans being reveal much earlier. Also remember that Sakurai has stated that not every character from the series will return, even Brawl.
Of course the character I am speaking of, is Wario.
As for JigglyPuff and the rest of the original 12, they are definitely coming back.

BTW, we should never, ever, ever attempt to predict Sakurai, how dare do you try to outsmart the Great Samurai? Unworthy, all of you. including me.

 

[Makaronileo]

The original 12 shold return, but not becuase they are THE ORIGINAL 12. They should return becuase they are good and deserving characters ( exept puffs who should be replaced by more important pokemons ).

 

[Morbi]

Just saying, the original 12 policy was inexistent until Brawl, some of the original 12 like Ness were considered to be cut. The reason for Ness staying had nothing to do with seniority. I believe everybody returned in Brawl do to that game being more of a celebration of Ninety's history than a game about fighting with the Nintendo All Stars, which would explain the very odd roster choices. The only time the developers ever acknowledged the original twelve was in two events, which again had to do with Nintendo history, the same for Melee with it's events. If anything, the original 8 have seniority due to probably being the most famous Nintendo mascots period, and normally are revealed first and have been acknowledged by developers outside of event mode.
As for which of the original 12 that has the highest chances of not returning is pretty obvious. It is no longer nearly as popular as it was before in Japan and was never that popular in the US without the anime, which it is no longer featured in as a recurring character which is most likely a big reason why it was in the first game due to the popularity of the anime. Also, this Pokemon is not relevant in the games anymore. Even though it got a type change, so did every other Fairy like Pokemon, you could say it got overshadowed by the others. Also, looking back at Brawl, this character's inclusion is at best very questionable. Normally being the first fighter unlocked, this character was one of the last. This character also had no impact on the story mode at all, despite allof the other original 12 members having huge roles. This character was revealed very close to launch as well despite the other veterans being reveal much earlier. Also remember that Sakurai has stated that not every character from the series will return, even Brawl.
Of course the character I am speaking of, is Wario.
As for JigglyPuff and the rest of the original 12, they are definitely coming back.

BTW, we should never, ever, ever attempt to predict Sakurai, how dare do you try to outsmart the Great Samurai? Unworthy, all of you. including me.

That precedent was established six years ago, so it isn't necessarily relevant. Nothing would indicate the the priority list is stagnant. In fact, something would indicate that Jigglypuff and Ness are going to be higher on the priority list this time around: their inclusion in Brawl.

 

[Curious Villager]

@ HugoBoss , try not to double post please.

Anyway, in regards to the whole original twelve thing. I feel this mostly only gets questioned because of Jigglypuff. Otherwise, I would definitely always see everyone coming back in future Smash installments as they really have very little reason to go imo.

 

[Kind Dedede]

I loved Jigglypuff back in 64, was amazed with her new move in Melee and was glad to see her return in Brawl. Why they have her such a crappy move for a FS I'll never know but what's done is done. The only one of the 12 who will ever be cut if they decide to is Jigglypuff. The anime has gone to newer regions without her so its not like she's really that important besides the Japan love fest or new fairy typing. Although had she dropped her normal typing, it would be a fun twist for a fighting game. Since she's neutral, I don't see the appeal.

Ness would have an outrageous amount of flack if they dropped him. Like when they announced Lucas over him, it seemed like a sea of "when's Ness coming? Where is ness? Why would they do this to ness?" Seems to me like they were plotting it in Brawl but decided against it and tacked him in. (I also don't believe him ever being cut from Melee, no idea where you got that info.)

Captain Falcon is Captain Falcon. He has a clone even in the form of Ganondorf for Christ sakes. Do you really expect him to disappear? If they dropped him in favor of his clone the riot would be huge, even if Ganondorf would be cut too. Its not happening, so why worry?

 

[Hot Uncle Sparky]

Captain Falcon is all but confirmed thanks to the information we had in the direct. Original model for the moveset, only rep in his series.

Ness would take higher priority over Lucas not only because of senority, but because Lucas is a clone (clones are in danger now due to moveset customization) was only in Japan, and if I remember correctly; was only used to advertize Mother 3 which is now long gone. Original model for the moveset.

Jigglypuff, being a suitable rep for the new Fairy type, now has a purpose other than popularity or seniority. And whether people know it or not, there is still room for her and Mewtwo together. I won't say anything about her role in Brawl since can only speculate on that. Unique moveset.

It is a fan construct in the sense that I don't think it is an absolute rule in which the producers abide. At least not to the original 12 but the original 8, the perfect-attendance crew term came out of a Brawl event and referred to the eight regulars specifically after all. That said their seniority and fan favoritism may influence positively on the outcome of their status in the game.

In a later event, you fought the 4 unlockables who were "secret perfect attendees"

The original 12 shold return, but not becuase they are THE ORIGINAL 12. They should return becuase they are good and deserving characters ( exept puffs who should be replaced by more important pokemons ).

Who would be more important? cutting a character just for the sake of replacing it doesn't sound like something they want to do anyway.

 

[Cpt.]

I am slightly confused, why wouldn't all of the Original 12 be relevant to Smash? I can not think of a single reason.

I mean they all are, but Smash doesn't really have a relevancy. I guess I can explain it by saying that Smash doesn't really have a story line besides the master hands controlling stuff. Therefore its kind of hard to argue over relevancy when talking about Smash. It's not like you can say "Mario is relevant to Smash becuase he's the main antagonist". IMO, it's better to say whether of not they are relevant to Nintendo and/or their series.

 

[Morbi]

I mean they all are, but Smash doesn't really have a relevancy. I guess I can explain it by saying that Smash doesn't really have a story line besides the master hands controlling stuff. Therefore its kind of hard to argue over relevancy when talking about Smash. It's not like you can say "Mario is relevant to Smash becuase he's the main antagonist". IMO, it's better to say whether of not they are relevant to Nintendo and/or their series.

That is an interesting perspective to say the least.

 

[Cpt.]

I mean they all are, but Smash doesn't really have a relevancy. I guess I can explain it by saying that Smash doesn't really have a story line besides the master hands controlling stuff. Therefore its kind of hard to argue over relevancy when talking about Smash. It's not like you can say "Mario is relevant to Smash becuase he's the main antagonist". IMO, it's better to say whether of not they are relevant to Nintendo and/or their series.

That is an interesting perspective to say the least.

Haha I meant protagonist, but yeah it's a different perspective for sure. I would think that to Sakurai they should all be important enough to be in every game. Not that I strongly disagree or anything, I just find it hard to say one way or the other if I think that they should be in every Smash game. Take Cpt. Falcon for example. He is a good character and was pretty important to Nintendo when 64 came out and he has good popularity. However I don't think that he should be guaranteed for, say, Smash 6 just because he was in Smash 64.

 

[Sarki Soliloquy]

I mean they all are, but Smash doesn't really have a relevancy. I guess I can explain it by saying that Smash doesn't really have a story line besides the master hands controlling stuff. Therefore its kind of hard to argue over relevancy when talking about Smash. It's not like you can say "Mario is relevant to Smash becuase he's the main antagonist". IMO, it's better to say whether of not they are relevant to Nintendo and/or their series.

I present to you, ladies and gentlemen, the Smashboards manifesto, condensed!

I would say this is how people think of roster choices more often than not, especially given many of the newcomers in SSB4. However, I don't think recency/relevancy was every considered a de facto factor in determining characters. If that were the case, Jiggs, Captain Falcon, Ness, Ice Climbers and Marth would have all gotten the boot and G&W and R.O.B. wouldn't even have been conceived off a signle brain cell of the designers. Hell, Mega Man is even questionable despite his fan demand.

 

[Cpt.]

However, I don't think recency/relevancy was every considered a de facto factor in determining characters. If that were the case, Jiggs, Captain Falcon, Ness, Ice Climbers and Marth would have all gotten the boot and G&W and R.O.B. wouldn't even have been conceived off a signle brain cell of the designers. Hell, Mega Man is even questionable despite his fan demand.

Well that's just not true. Maybe for some characters, but not the retros.

 

[Neo Zero]

I think you guys look to far into trends. Ness was considered to get the boot before, and Jigglypuff was added later in Brawl's development along with Wolf and Toon Link. Frankly, I don't think being from the 64 makes you sacred, but I do think they'll all come back. Mother is pretty much dead atm and Ness is the best rep for it all, and Jigglypuff....honestly, mostly because the moveset is super easy to make lol. Wouldn't surprise me Jigglypuff was finished before Mewtwo for Brawl just because of how simple its moveset is.

Of course, I also wouldn't be surprised if Sakurai didn't bother putting in the man power for Jigglypuff especially if Mewtwo is planned to be put in. Even if Jigglypuff makes this game, I still wouldn't be surprised if it got cut in the next game, Pokemon is a tricky IP after all.

 

[Cpt.]

I think you guys look to far into trends. Ness was considered to get the boot before, and Jigglypuff was added later in Brawl's development along with Wolf and Toon Link. Frankly, I don't think being from the 64 makes you sacred, but I do think they'll all come back. Mother is pretty much dead atm and Ness is the best rep for it all, and Jigglypuff....honestly, mostly because the moveset is super easy to make lol. Wouldn't surprise me Jigglypuff was finished before Mewtwo for Brawl just because of how simple its moveset is.

Of course, I also wouldn't be surprised if Sakurai didn't bother putting in the man power for Jigglypuff especially if Mewtwo is planned to be put in. Even if Jigglypuff makes this game, I still wouldn't be surprised if it got cut in the next game, Pokemon is a tricky IP after all.

I like to looks at trends, but then I get Sakuraied in the face.