Official MBR Tier List

[Gimpyfish62]

for the last *since i joined* the only person who has consistently made sense on the boards in every single post without fail is umbreon.

even when i was dumb smashwise i could tell he was right

it's not hard to figure out here guys lol

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

m2k just said that his marth would do better against a spacie then his sheik would in that convo. I don't think anybody disagrees that Marth's do better vs spacie's then sheiks do, but that doesnt mean that marth is better overall

^^im not complaining at SBR rating fox and marth better then sheik by the way. Off course I understand that the tier list isn't biased and that the facts the SBR has gone by and the methods used when rating the chars are very legit and all that. This tier list is very good, and imo it is overall the most accurate tier list right now

Just expressing my opinion

btw, how even/uneven does the majority of the SBR consider the fox vs sheik matchup? (just curious)

 

[Deleted member]

it doesn't matter who the opponent is. If that were the case, his marth videos vs KDJ wouldn't exist.

When it comes down to crunch time, people that want to win will pick characters most likely to win. Most people choose Marth over Sheik, regardless of other variables. Case closed.

I put fox vs sheik at 55/45.

 

[NIXN]

I don't think Yoshi should be that low on the tier list. Yoshi is a demigod, and an autistic child should not be ahead of him! Even if that child has a head that could shade you from the sun.

 

[Winston]

It's pretty clear that the top four are a notch above everyone else. This is a mathematical look at their relative ranking. If anyone wants a more detailed explanation of my premises/setup I'll give it later.

Since the tier list is supposed to control for individual skill, the outcome of any given match is a probability.

Going by some pretty commonly accepted matchup values (dittos are obviously 50-50):

Fox:
vs Marth 50-50, vs Sheik 55-45, vs Falco 50-50

Marth:
vs Fox 50-50, vs Sheik 45-55, vs Falco 55-45

Sheik:
vs Fox 45-55, vs Marth 55-45, vs Falco 50-50

Falco:
vs Fox 50-50, vs Marth 45-55, vs Sheik 50-50

It's pretty immediately clear that since Falco's matchups are strictly worse than Fox, there's no reason to play Falco under the assumption of equal skill.

Removing Falco, we get:

Fox:
vs Marth 50-50, vs Sheik 55-45

Marth:
vs Fox 50-50, vs Sheik 45-55

Sheik:
vs Fox 45-55, vs Marth 55-45

Therefore the expected win value for each character would be:

EVfox = .5*F + .5*M + .55*S
EVmarth = .5*F + .5*M + .45*S
EVsheik = .45*F + .55*M + .5*S

where F is the percentage of Foxes in the metagame, M is marth, and S is sheik.

A stable metagame implies that each character's expected value is equal to 50%.

So you get a system of equations

.5*F + .5*M + .55*S = .5
.5*F + .5*M + .45*S = .5
.45*F + .55*M + .5*S = .5

where F, M, S are between 0 and 1.

since .5*F + .5*M + .55*S = .5 = .5*F + .5*M + .45*S,
.55S = .45S

This means that there can't be a stable metagame with Sheik in it, i.e. Sheik is not as good as the other two characters. (Even if for some reason there are a ton of Marths at first, the Sheiks will beat them out and eventually it will be a few Foxes and a lot of Sheiks. Then the Foxes will beat the Sheiks out, and it's back to Fox/Marth.)



therefore S = 0, and you get a stable metagame of 50% fox, 50% marth. (or, more precisely, a metagame where its irrelevant whether you're fox or marth.)

Final Result:

Fox & Marth tied for 1st
Sheik
Falco

in that order.


The result based on those matchup values seems to be supported by tournament results.

The only way Sheik would end up being first or tied for first would be to have her not at a disadvantage to Fox, or have Fox at a disadvantage to Marth or Falco.

The most accurate tier list would be the one calculated from the most accurate matchup values.

 

[Red Exodus]

What made Mewtwo move from the bottom [or made Pichu and Kirby move lower]? I'm curious.

 

[Winston]

What made Mewtwo move from the bottom [or made Pichu and Kirby move lower]? I'm curious.

People changed their opinions? >.>

Mewtwo's metagame wasn't completely stagnant over the past few years, unlike those of Pichu and Kirby.

Mewtwo having a bona fide top-flight player in Taj didn't hurt either.

 

[Crackle]

Mewtwo is stylish, Kirby and Pichu are hardly recognized.

 

[sHy)(gUy]

doesnt falco have a 55/45 over fox???

 

[VA]

I don't like the way m2k is citing Europe as a reason for sheik being #1, it makes no sense as we have a totally different meta game.

1) Our playstyles differ so much to the NTSC/N.American meta game
2) Our version of melee is different, this clearly alters tiers.

The alterations to sheik were intended as nerfs but actually ended up making her different but not necessarily worse. For fox/marth/falco the alterations are significant nerfs: Marth loses spike, only half of Falco's dair spikes and my god Fox is just nothing close to the dominant character he is in N.America

. I think want m2k is saying doesn't really make any sense, if he really thinks he can win with sheik and she is the best character he would have used her. I've never seen him go Sheik in a tournament, not even heard of it happening. The confidence he has in Marth is testament to the new ranking he holds in tiers.

The back roomers have done a really good job of creating a final tier list, imo it reflects perfectly melee at the peak metagame.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

I think it's funny how everybody changed their opinion about the fox vs marth matchup when m2k made his tier list, where he said that the matchup is even.
A few months ago there where very few people who thought it was completely even. Now everyone does lol.

I don't like the way m2k is citing Europe as a reason for sheik being #1, it makes no sense as we have a totally different meta game.

1) Our playstyles differ so much to the NTSC/N.American meta game
2) Our version of melee is different, this clearly alters tiers.

The alterations to sheik were intended as nerfs but actually ended up making her different but not necessarily worse. For fox/marth/falco the alterations are significant nerfs: Marth loses spike, only half of Falco's dair spikes and my god Fox is just nothing close to the dominant character he is in N.America

. I think want m2k is saying doesn't really make any sense, if he really thinks he can win with sheik and she is the best character he would have used her. I've never seen him go Sheik in a tournament, not even heard of it happening. The confidence he has in Marth is testament to the new ranking he holds in tiers.

The back roomers have done a really good job of creating a final tier list, imo it reflects perfectly melee at the peak metagame.

The falco nerf was very insignicant tho. the fact that the spike has longer duration doesnt really make any difference whatsoever. It's out for like half a second in PAL anyway lol. (I've played NTSC)
Fox's usmash is disgusting in NTSC, btw O.o
I disagree with what you're saying about m2k's opinions the tiers. You can have any opinion you want really, you don't have to play a certain char to "prove" something. Just argue for what you think and back it up well with facts. My marth is terrible, does that mean I can't think he's good? (not saying that m2k's sheiks is bad, i really have no idea since i havent even seen vids off his sheik) Off course not.

 

[Mew2King]

about 2 or so months ago at chus 2nd final biweekly (lol) I believe it was I used marth vs some mario player and lost, then my sheik 4 stocked the person

that same day, my fox lost a close match in tourney to topes sheik, only for me to win by 3 stock in a non-CG sheik ditto

I am definitely convinced that sheik is the best character, and I do use her a lot in tourney, you only think otherwise cuz you base off vids, and by tourney finals im often fighting spacies or marth ditto or something i would feel more confortable with with marth, when it might not necessarily have been the better choice. part of the reason is because im not that good at fox vs sheik considering what i should be, and i use sheik for most bottom/low/mid/high tier chars (depends which high tier ones), but they aren't as common in tourney where most ppl would see it

 

[VA]

I think it's funny how everybody changed their opinion about the fox vs marth matchup when m2k made his tier list, where he said that the matchup is even.
A few months ago there where very few people who thought it was completely even. Now everyone does lol.

The falco nerf was very insignicant tho. the fact that the spike has longer duration doesnt really make any difference whatsoever. It's out for like half a second in PAL anyway lol. (I've played NTSC)
Fox's usmash is disgusting in NTSC, btw O.o
I disagree with what you're saying about m2k's opinions the tiers. You can have any opinion you want really, you don't have to play a certain char to "prove" something. Just argue for what you think and back it up well with facts. My marth is terrible, does that mean I can't think he's good? (not saying that m2k's sheiks is bad, i really have no idea since i havent even seen vids off his sheik) Off course not.

It's relevant to m2k because he is at the peak of meta game. If you are at this point then you will generally be using the character with the most potential.If marth truly had significant weaknesses then he would switch to sheik. Sorry M2k but the relevant examples lie when you actually play at peak meta game, having to use marth just shows that's why he's that good, sheik is counterable and he is not. It's like the current situation with MK in brawl. He is so good that you pick up the only thing that counters him...MK himself.

Also the falco nerf is a lot more significant than you know. I've played in NTSC meta game for a good 3 months against a lot of falco's, I really noticed the difference.

 

[NJzFinest]

Dr. Mario 6.2 and Mario 5.3? I know Dr. Mario is better, but I didn't know he would end up being placed almost a "full tier" over Mario.
edit:

if it's purely tournament results and nothing else then dk is way too low

pkm was a 1st seed at vls and only didn't make bracket because of his flight home
pkm got 9th at 0c3
bum got 4rth at mlg long island
mexican got 13th at super champ combo

what the hell have doc and ganon done that's better than that recently

kage got 9th at TGMTSBCO but that wasn't anything compared to how big 0c3 was and it didn't have the same talent as MLG Long Island either (kdj, pc, chu, m2k).

I would also like someone to address this.

 

[JBM falcon08]

^i know. its kinda strange.

to be honest once again mario should be above dr. mario.

mario places higher thanks to dj nintendo and green mario.

 

[NJzFinest]

I think it's because there's SOOOO few DK players, he's probably the least popular. The only DK players that come to mind are Bum, Pkmvodka, and Mexican.

Funny thing is that those few players all do good

Regarding Mario, he should at least be near Doc. I mean, Doc can't be THAT much better... right?

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

It's relevant to m2k because he is at the peak of meta game. If you are at this point then you will generally be using the character with the most potential.If marth truly had significant weaknesses then he would switch to sheik. Sorry M2k but the relevant examples lie when you actually play at peak meta game, having to use marth just shows that's why he's that good, sheik is counterable and he is not. It's like the current situation with MK in brawl. He is so good that you pick up the only thing that counters him...MK himself.

Also the falco nerf is a lot more significant than you know. I've played in NTSC meta game for a good 3 months against a lot of falco's, I really noticed the difference.

Stop using the word "meta game". It's a stupid buzzword that doesn't make sense lol.

And you can't measure skill in such a black and white way that you do. Just because he can fully utilize marth's potential doesn't necessarily mean he can with sheik (again, not saying he can't, i dont know anything about his sheik really). That doesn't mean that the potential isn't there.

You're also forgetting that he might prefer to use marth more in certain matchups, and different characters against different people. Maybe he won't use sheik in tournament against a certain player b/c he knows that that person is better at fighting sheiks then fighting marths. Or maybe he just felt like playing marth that day.

I could go on and on lol. There are so many factors involved in what character you choose to play. You can't just say "since the best player [in the us] doesnt use character x instead of character y, character x can't be the best"

Plus, m2k does use sheik alot according to himself. which is a pretty **** reliable source lol.


But even if he didn't it would still be perfectly reasonable of him to have the opinion that sheik is the best. Which is my point. That's why I used my example of me having a terrible marth and still beleiving he's a great character.



What other differences are there with falco other then the spike having longer duration, btw? I havent played ntsc that much lol.

about 2 or so months ago at chus 2nd final biweekly (lol) I believe it was I used marth vs some mario player and lost, then my sheik 4 stocked the person

that same day, my fox lost a close match in tourney to topes sheik, only for me to win by 3 stock in a non-CG sheik ditto

I am definitely convinced that sheik is the best character, and I do use her a lot in tourney, you only think otherwise cuz you base off vids, and by tourney finals im often fighting spacies or marth ditto or something i would feel more confortable with with marth, when it might not necessarily have been the better choice. part of the reason is because im not that good at fox vs sheik considering what i should be, and i use sheik for most bottom/low/mid/high tier chars (depends which high tier ones), but they aren't as common in tourney where most ppl would see it

Like I said, i dont really know anything about your sheik (since i cant go by anything else then vids). But that prolly wasnt directed towards me lol

 

[Deleted member]

math

We didn't do this at all. Not only that, Falco usually beats Fox at top levels of player, as does Marth.

DK moved up, how much did you guys expect him to move based on 4 tournaments?

 

[NJzFinest]

Well, like I said, it is rare to find DK players. Yes, it's just 4 tournaments, but I picture it as 4 out of the only 4 notable tournaments that actually had DK players.

Also considering the fact it's 4 solid placements from 4 different players, I thought it would influence a solid change in the list >.>

 

[Megachuk]

Mew2king really has to stop basing his character choices over his Win/Lose record.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

Going from low to mid is pretty **** solid. If you look at the chars above him and think about how good they are... he really doesn't deserve to be above any of those.
IMO DK's placing is perfect.

 

[VA]

Stop using the word "meta game". It's a stupid buzzword that doesn't make sense lol.

And you can't measure skill in such a black and white way that you do. Just because he can fully utilize marth's potential doesn't necessarily mean he can with sheik (again, not saying he can't, i dont know anything about his sheik really). That doesn't mean that the potential isn't there.

You're also forgetting that he might prefer to use marth more in certain matchups, and different characters against different people. Maybe he won't use sheik in tournament against a certain player b/c he knows that that person is better at fighting sheiks then fighting marths. Or maybe he just felt like playing marth that day.

I could go on and on lol. There are so many factors involved in what character you choose to play. You can't just say "since the best player [in the us] doesnt use character x instead of character y, character x can't be the best"

Plus, m2k does use sheik alot according to himself. which is a pretty **** reliable source lol.


But even if he didn't it would still be perfectly reasonable of him to have the opinion that sheik is the best. Which is my point. That's why I used my example of me having a terrible marth and still beleiving he's a great character.



What other differences are there with falco other then the spike having longer duration, btw? I havent played ntsc that much lol.

Falco has no other differences, but the extra 30 frames on the spike is a big change.

I use meta game a lot because in my mind it's a concept with a lot of meaning not a buzzword. I can't be bothered going into detail about it as it's been defined by other people in great depth; a way that I can't.

You're looking at it as if m2k is just choosing marth because it works better for him against certain characters, what I was saying is that marth presents the highest likelyhood of winning. The reason that this is true is because marth > sheik, not to do with why or how m2k has chosen the character, it's to do with the potential at the level of play (note lack of use of the "buzzword" word meta game). It has nothing to do with m2k's personal opinion on which character is the best, the point is due to the evolution of play m2k must choose marth against fox for the greatest chance of winning. It's what has happened with brawl, people choose the characters with the greatest chance of winning and that's how play evolves.

That's just how I see it. Also I mentioned that m2k was using europe as an example of how good sheik is, this just isn't relevant as the top 4 are very different characters in PAL and the game has evolved differently, playstyles etc. (concepts the make up the meta game lol).

Also m2k's example of losing to some random mario months after he's been playing brawl and stuff just doesn't hold much ground since this tier is based on high end tournament matches.

Finally people should just accept this tier as what it is, it's been put together by the finest minds in smash and has ended up this way for a reason. So...let's just leave it as that then yeh???

 

[MEXICAN]

I agree with the tier list. DK is about where i'd put him, so no argument there from me. DK has the potential to mess a lot of characters up, but at the same time, his crappy shield, huge size, and the fact that he's one of the most easily combo'd characters in the game keeps him from going any higher up in the tier list. This is just my opinion. This is definitely the best list i've seen so far imo

 

[HT F8]

Unless there's an official definition of "Tier" in the SBR, then everything being said here is opinion, whether you like it or not.

 

[jugfingers]

about 2 or so months ago at chus 2nd final biweekly (lol) I believe it was I used marth vs some mario player and lost, then my sheik 4 stocked the person

that same day, my fox lost a close match in tourney to topes sheik, only for me to win by 3 stock in a non-CG sheik ditto

I am definitely convinced that sheik is the best character, and I do use her a lot in tourney, you only think otherwise cuz you base off vids, and by tourney finals im often fighting spacies or marth ditto or something i would feel more confortable with with marth, when it might not necessarily have been the better choice. part of the reason is because im not that good at fox vs sheik considering what i should be, and i use sheik for most bottom/low/mid/high tier chars (depends which high tier ones), but they aren't as common in tourney where most ppl would see it

a mario beat your marth!

who was it?

 

[Ojanya]

Nice, that's identical to my personal tier list.

 

[BrawlLover]

m2k does have a point however, if the only people who play are nubs, and let's say me, teh brawl wuver shows up at major tournies, i'd just use pichu and win, so IF this were to happen, that means pichu *****? then again, it's merely hypothetical

 

[Raycen]

Sheik +2

Nice Tiert list!

Pal tiert list ftw!

 

[Winston]

We didn't do this at all. Not only that, Falco usually beats Fox at top levels of player, as does Marth.

DK moved up, how much did you guys expect him to move based on 4 tournaments?

I didn't imply that you did that method, only that it's a sound theoretical basis for a tier list.

That math basically calculates the tier list to find "which character is most likely to win a tournament", which you said was what it should be.

If Fox < Falco, Fox < Marth, Fox > Sheik, then it doesn't make sense that Fox is tied for the best character...

It would really be great if you could come up with some official backroom matchup chart as well, or at least for the top half of the tier list.

 

[woopyfrood]

Wow. I'm glad that Mewtwo's no longer dead last, but Kirby going second to last? I did not see that coming.

Poor Pichu...but it was inevitable...

 

[Asylum]

Pretty good. Kirby should be up 2, and Sheik a lil higher.

 

[AznLanceLord]

Well, according to matchups, shiek would be the best. She only loses a little to fox and can have some trouble vs falco, and then there is herself.

 

[Strong Badam]

According to matchups, Marth should be at the top. He has exactly 1 bad matchup, and it's 45-55 against Sheik. >_>

 

[JrdnS]

^...which is 50/50.

to azn

 

[`Jammin' Jobus]

lmao at all of you talking like your are the authority for matchups.


pshh. get over yourselves. matchups aren't totally universal like that and are not clean cut. they depend a lot on the stage picked aswell.

 

['Fro]

I'll agree with this list. As a player of many fighting games, I'm keeping in mind that placements within on tier don't mean that much of a difference. Samus isn't miles ahead of 'Dorf by being two places higher.

I like the way Marth moved up. His potential has been proven for a long time.

Also, as for Peach above Falcon, I actually agree.

 

[JrdnS]

lmao at all of you talking like your are the authority for matchups.


pshh. get over yourselves. matchups aren't totally universal like that and are not clean cut. they depend a lot on the stage picked aswell.

i hope you werent talkin to me.

i was just saying sheik vs sheik, like all dittos, is 50/50.

 

[XIF]

about 2 or so months ago at chus 2nd final biweekly (lol) I believe it was I used marth vs some mario player and lost, then my sheik 4 stocked the person

that same day, my fox lost a close match in tourney to topes sheik, only for me to win by 3 stock in a non-CG sheik ditto

I am definitely convinced that sheik is the best character, and I do use her a lot in tourney, you only think otherwise cuz you base off vids, and by tourney finals im often fighting spacies or marth ditto or something i would feel more confortable with with marth, when it might not necessarily have been the better choice. part of the reason is because im not that good at fox vs sheik considering what i should be, and i use sheik for most bottom/low/mid/high tier chars (depends which high tier ones), but they aren't as common in tourney where most ppl would see it

I've already explained to you that the reason for that was largely stage. Mario is only viable on Final D and final D only. The character didnt make the difference, the stage.

And dittos mean very little, even in comparison to some other match. We are talking aggregate. Come to us with concrete evidence, because if all you have is on paper evidence, we can walk all over it with the on paper evidence of Fox and Marth being busted. Tournament results speak for themselves.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

yay a tier list. Thanks for taking your taking to make this Tier List, it looks great! Also what's great is that you actually gave each char a score. I think that is a very good idea. yay luigi is higher higher than mario

so... i have a question. the scores say that some of them are tied (like ness and yoshi both at 2.5) but one is higher than the other. what was the tiebreaker or what made the decision of making one higher than the other?

 

[Gimpyfish62]

we rounded the numbers - the actual numbers are very very slightly different