I don't really agree on Peach's turnips putting Game and Watch in a bad position. Game and Watch is only in a bad position against Peach when he is above her, and I don't really see Game and Watch being forced into that position by turnips. Something as simple as a jab will negate the turnip and that resets the positions to what they were before the turnip was thrown.When she throws those turnips, she is zoning you. You aren't usually meant to be hit by them. They're there to provoke a reaction that she can either punish or gain positional advantage from. This is actually problematic because G&W's shield is crappy and his moves are in really obvious locations (and they're slow).
For this reason her approach is nowhere near as linear as G&W's. G&W doesn't have a projectile to prod the opponent to see what sort of attack might work. When you add her high-quality mixup game, the offensive disparity is kind of
When Peach runs away, she makes G&W move forward. Since G&W only functions well by having perfect spacing at all times (because he's laggy), this is bad. Moving forward a lot at a time is bad. And not moving forward gives her time to set up her zoning, which is similarly bad.
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Guide Official Matchup Discussion
- Thread starter LiteralGrill
- Start date
Superspright
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2008
- Messages
- 1,334
Frying pan camp back. 
ruhtraeel
Smash Ace
Lol I was just gunna throw that out thereFrying pan camp back.
If the pan cancelled like Falco's lasers, omg that would be so ****
But yeah I think Peach's turnips can be dealt with appropriately
But I'm a scrubby G&W
I play characters who have a chance of winning regular non low tier tournaments looool
but not Sheik like my fellow Canadian here
EDIT: On second thought, G&W HAS to do something about turnips, and G&W reacting to something is pretty sucky cause of his terrible defence, so I guess you have to really know how to deal with turnip transitions into other stuff
QERB
Banned via Warnings
I don't have a lot of peach exp. really. In fact I got pretttttty ***** by mafia's peach at zenith in bracket. All i know is turnips arent too hard to deal with. i usually just retreating f-air them and reposition. i personally dont like catching/throwing them bcuz gw's throw animation seems slow to me, I just don't like it lol IDK. Basically it doesnt end well when i do that.
The only problem with focusing on f-airing (or however u stop peach's turnips) is that the peach could be expecting you to deal with the turnips that way and punish, so don't focus on the turnips so hard that you forget about spacing.
Anyways other than that--- If you can space enough to make a peach miss a downsmash you can punish with a tipped d-smash, cuz that **** outranges it i believe. I think the d-smash is just a good move to use against peach in general.
Idk if others have tried this before, but when edgeguarding a peach, have you ever tried to jump out and pan-spike a peach while she's lingering around in her up-b waiting to get that sweetspot on the edge? i've done this successully a bunch of times, but idk if it's a legit strat or not :3
The only problem with focusing on f-airing (or however u stop peach's turnips) is that the peach could be expecting you to deal with the turnips that way and punish, so don't focus on the turnips so hard that you forget about spacing.
Anyways other than that--- If you can space enough to make a peach miss a downsmash you can punish with a tipped d-smash, cuz that **** outranges it i believe. I think the d-smash is just a good move to use against peach in general.
Idk if others have tried this before, but when edgeguarding a peach, have you ever tried to jump out and pan-spike a peach while she's lingering around in her up-b waiting to get that sweetspot on the edge? i've done this successully a bunch of times, but idk if it's a legit strat or not :3
Superspright
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2008
- Messages
- 1,334
This may sound crazy, but maybe characters SHOULD be grabbing the turnips and using them like her--I am sure other characters would benefit a lot from having a projectile like that. Plus, you can throw it backward then bair. It offers some surprises--I always try to catch em or avoid em.
DualCats
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Dec 24, 2009
- Messages
- 502
A lot of characters should and most good players do (to a certain extent). That's how my Sheik usually plays that matchup. Unfortunately, G&W throws turnips like an old man so it's not terribly useful unless your opponent is being exceptionally campy.
QERB
Banned via Warnings
I'm glad someone else agrees. I wasn't sure if it was me just thinking it was slow or if it was actually... pretty dam slow.. lol.
SuperMatt
Smash Champion
i dont know anything about peach so ill change the subject
im starting to think rainbow cruise is a good stage for gaw, aerial priority is one of his strong suits and you should basically be in the air the whole match on this stage, sans when you're on the boat, nair just rips everything apart
also sausages riding on the carpet is pretty boss in some situations lol
ill probably be doing some game and watching this weekend and i will report back
im starting to think rainbow cruise is a good stage for gaw, aerial priority is one of his strong suits and you should basically be in the air the whole match on this stage, sans when you're on the boat, nair just rips everything apart
also sausages riding on the carpet is pretty boss in some situations lol
ill probably be doing some game and watching this weekend and i will report back
SuperMatt
Smash Champion
only played a few matches with GaW, won them all
vs fox...not getting grabbed is my biggest problem
vs marth....i like this MU i think it's not too bad
vs fox...not getting grabbed is my biggest problem
vs marth....i like this MU i think it's not too bad
SnakeMan
Smash Cadet
I play a pretty good peach on a regular basis, and YES, like kaze said turnips can be a big problem in the hands of a capable player. The turnips will really test your spacing and mobility skills.
And probably test your patience, as well! Lol
I dont like fairing them, as that is just aking to be punished. Jab work$ ok for me in a pinch, but in this matchup ive found the best thing is to be super aggro and dont give peach the time to pull turnips. I like to get in her face, threating dtilt or dsmash while wd'ing in and out, trying to bait her dsmash.
They SHOULD be fearing those two attacks bc once they're popped up in the air, you should be able to nair **** them for the win.
And probably test your patience, as well! Lol
I dont like fairing them, as that is just aking to be punished. Jab work$ ok for me in a pinch, but in this matchup ive found the best thing is to be super aggro and dont give peach the time to pull turnips. I like to get in her face, threating dtilt or dsmash while wd'ing in and out, trying to bait her dsmash.
They SHOULD be fearing those two attacks bc once they're popped up in the air, you should be able to nair **** them for the win.
QERB
Banned via Warnings
I like playing as much in peachs face as possible too, it just sux when I f up spacing one time and accidentally cc a peach d smash. Probably one of the most demoralizing things ever lol.. but I'm getting better at it. basically its hard to keep perfect spacing while trying to give peach no room to pull turnips is wat I'm saying 
QERB
Banned via Warnings
updated the marth part, lemme know if you know other ways that you like to do to edge-guard 'em. Almost done with that otherwise. Then I'll do sheik next, I could use a lil help with dat fo sho.
since dthrow chaingrab on spacies is so reaction demanding at low %. Would it more viable to dthrow jab reset intentionally/ dthrow and follow with tech chase since you are still building the dmg.
I just think below 30% the jab resets are worth it.
what you guys think?
I just think below 30% the jab resets are worth it.
what you guys think?
Cactuarz
Smash Ace
low %'s you can uthrow chaingrab the spacies =p i'm like the only G&W main that has problems doing the "easy" uthrow chaingrab lol.
QERB
Banned via Warnings
I think that 99% of players we play against (maybe even including ourselves) can't tell which way g&w is throwing them. I can't count how many ppl have asked me, which direction did you throw me that time? Was that a down-throw? It's pretty hilarious. So we can def take oober advantage of that fact.
I think mixing in a d-throw jab-reset can be a fairly good idea, but it's not guaranteed. And against nearly every character, a followup attack after your throw is almost always guaranteed, so I don't know if you would want to risk NOT getting the jab reset, in case they do recognize that and do tech. but it's certainly a legit mindgame that you can do, especially if you think that they are wayy more concerned with di'ing your throw and not even thinking about possibly having to tech it in the first place.
For me which throw I use always depends on the matchup and stage. Against spacies, I rarely ever d-throw, because i'm much more concerned with trying to get them off stage asap, and play from there. If i can't get them off stage then my next priority is racking up as much percentage as I can, and to do this I like going for the guaranteed u-throw/u-throw tech-chase combos.
Unless it's on FoD... i find it difficult to tech chase in time after a u-throw on that stage because of the positioning of the platforms, that's just me though =P
I think mixing in a d-throw jab-reset can be a fairly good idea, but it's not guaranteed. And against nearly every character, a followup attack after your throw is almost always guaranteed, so I don't know if you would want to risk NOT getting the jab reset, in case they do recognize that and do tech. but it's certainly a legit mindgame that you can do, especially if you think that they are wayy more concerned with di'ing your throw and not even thinking about possibly having to tech it in the first place.
For me which throw I use always depends on the matchup and stage. Against spacies, I rarely ever d-throw, because i'm much more concerned with trying to get them off stage asap, and play from there. If i can't get them off stage then my next priority is racking up as much percentage as I can, and to do this I like going for the guaranteed u-throw/u-throw tech-chase combos.
Unless it's on FoD... i find it difficult to tech chase in time after a u-throw on that stage because of the positioning of the platforms, that's just me though =P
Oracle
Smash Master
>get chaingrabbed
>lose
>switch to a counterpick
Real talk though can G&W duck sheik's grab? I feel like he can but also i could be wrong
QERB
Banned via Warnings
yeah he can duck under the grab. Problem is most of the time you will get grabbed out of an aerial. But at a fairly low percentage you can up-b out of her cg, at least with my experience i could.
also you can cg sheik to at least the 20%'s or so, and your d-throw combos her into anything you choose. but overall needles are gay and it's hard to not get gimped.
The only thing I like about the matchup is that if you get a f-air at lower %'s on her you can chain more f-airs afterwards.
also you can cg sheik to at least the 20%'s or so, and your d-throw combos her into anything you choose. but overall needles are gay and it's hard to not get gimped.
The only thing I like about the matchup is that if you get a f-air at lower %'s on her you can chain more f-airs afterwards.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
I'm pretty sure that if G&W can get Sheik offstage, it should be a "relatively easy" gimp due to Sheik's bad recovery combined with Watch's great gimping tools. You basically cover all her options w/ one move.
DualCats
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Dec 24, 2009
- Messages
- 502
It depends. gimping Sheik is more mindgames than it is execution but it still demands both.
Sheik can get aerials out very quickly so gimping is a delicate challenge of spacing and timing. If you can force Sheik to land on stage (mostly by edge-hogging) you can almost get a hit off afterwards but it's not necessarily going to become a gimp, especially with good DI. Because Sheik's up-b snaps to the ledge, it makes gimping from the stage unlikely, whereas pursuing Sheik off stage is generally just a dangerous game.
A lot of Sheik gimps are about tricking her into wasting that second jump. For me, this tends to involve things like edge cancelled aerials, empty short hops into dtilts and often just brazenly jumping off stage with a well-timed aerial.
Sheik can get aerials out very quickly so gimping is a delicate challenge of spacing and timing. If you can force Sheik to land on stage (mostly by edge-hogging) you can almost get a hit off afterwards but it's not necessarily going to become a gimp, especially with good DI. Because Sheik's up-b snaps to the ledge, it makes gimping from the stage unlikely, whereas pursuing Sheik off stage is generally just a dangerous game.
A lot of Sheik gimps are about tricking her into wasting that second jump. For me, this tends to involve things like edge cancelled aerials, empty short hops into dtilts and often just brazenly jumping off stage with a well-timed aerial.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
Yeah, I was thinking nair offstage, ledge-cancelled fairs, and dair>fsmash at the ledge could be used as options, along w/ the ever useful dtilt.
Jeyfar
Smash Apprentice
Something on the Match-ups I'd like to put of my own opinion. I main Ganon, but I co-main G&W. Whenever I use G&W against Falco's I sometimes even end up winning. There are some thing's Falco can fall easily to, d-grab + parachute on high percentages 80+ hits if you time it right. F-air and parachute are my suggested moves against a Falco, but after a while the Falco can start reading your moves. So you have to vary your ground attacks with aerials. d-tilt, u-tilt, ftilt (after 70%) all work well. Just juggle your gameplay and be unpredictable.
I'd like to add my Ganon match-up opinion as well. I'll be blunt, Ganon destroys G&W, I'd give it a 2/10 or 20/80 at Ganon's favor.Ganon can easily shield stab G&W's crappy shield, he has more priority than G&W, longer range, and obscene power than G&W (G&W can die at 50% by Ganon's f-air) A way to survive against Ganon well and possibly even win is by G&W's grab game. d-throw with almost any aerial combo's him, Wave dash back instead of rolling. Use d-tilt to punish Ganon's recovery (he wont survive trust me) and remember to use n-air.
I'd like to add my Ganon match-up opinion as well. I'll be blunt, Ganon destroys G&W, I'd give it a 2/10 or 20/80 at Ganon's favor.Ganon can easily shield stab G&W's crappy shield, he has more priority than G&W, longer range, and obscene power than G&W (G&W can die at 50% by Ganon's f-air) A way to survive against Ganon well and possibly even win is by G&W's grab game. d-throw with almost any aerial combo's him, Wave dash back instead of rolling. Use d-tilt to punish Ganon's recovery (he wont survive trust me) and remember to use n-air.
I completely disagree on the Ganon matchup. Game and Watch goes even with Ganon, and actually might have an advantage.
Game and Watch's shield is almost a non-issue in this matchup, simply because of Game and Watch's mobility. He can also duck Ganon's jab, which is really important. Ganon's moves are slow enough for G&W to react with a move of his own and hit Ganon before his move comes out.
Game and Watch's shield is almost a non-issue in this matchup, simply because of Game and Watch's mobility. He can also duck Ganon's jab, which is really important. Ganon's moves are slow enough for G&W to react with a move of his own and hit Ganon before his move comes out.
Jeyfar
Smash Apprentice
Unfortunately, I'm basing my opinion on experience. G&W has huge disadvantages against Ganon. He's outprioritized, outranged, has less weight (too much less), has limited defense options, and he lacks a good dodge. Believe I have tried for years to beat with G&W various Ganon's I never can. No matter how much I try to adapt my metagame. Maybe it's purely because I suck, but I think that Ganon really is one of his worst match-ups. G&W is just a bit quicker, much longer lasting hitboxes, and a bit of an unpredictable recovery (but you have to sweet spot, else you are dead). Remember G&W has comparable power, but that's it. If you're playing againts a good Ganon, don't get your hopes up. Heck I even see the space animals, Shiek, Marth, Falcon, Puff and Peach as much better match-ups.
DualCats
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Dec 24, 2009
- Messages
- 502
G&W vs Ganon is a tricky matchup. What it basically comes down to is that whoever has more matchup knowledge wins. Which generally goes without saying but both characters can exploit eachother pretty effectively. A G&W player really needs a smart approach and excellent spacing to pull this matchup off. It's really easy call G&W's approach once someone is used to his shenanigans. Ultimately, I think it's in Ganon's favour but it's definitely not that bad at an ideal level of play. That is to say, both players have sufficient matchup knowledge and solid fundamentals.
People often seem to argue matchups at completely different levels of play. Obviously, a character like Ganon will **** G&W at less-experienced levels of play. I tend to contextualize matchups based on my level of play (whatever that is) so I really have to force myself to think in broader terms.
Ganon is extremely easy for G&W to combo and subsequently easy to get off stage from which it is relatively easy to get gimps. G&W vs. Ganon should be a spacing battle that ends in G&W capitalizing on Ganon's laggy moves for opportunities to start combos. G&W can also poke Ganon out of most of his aerials pretty easily if you can call them. G&W's bair is extremely safe on stage in this matchup because Ganon really has no options to close space quickly out of shield. It's particularly useful if you can edge-cancel. The biggest problem with this matchup is that you have like no margin for error so for all the time you put into carefully dancing around his ****, you can **** up once and get wrecked.
People often seem to argue matchups at completely different levels of play. Obviously, a character like Ganon will **** G&W at less-experienced levels of play. I tend to contextualize matchups based on my level of play (whatever that is) so I really have to force myself to think in broader terms.
Ganon is extremely easy for G&W to combo and subsequently easy to get off stage from which it is relatively easy to get gimps. G&W vs. Ganon should be a spacing battle that ends in G&W capitalizing on Ganon's laggy moves for opportunities to start combos. G&W can also poke Ganon out of most of his aerials pretty easily if you can call them. G&W's bair is extremely safe on stage in this matchup because Ganon really has no options to close space quickly out of shield. It's particularly useful if you can edge-cancel. The biggest problem with this matchup is that you have like no margin for error so for all the time you put into carefully dancing around his ****, you can **** up once and get wrecked.
I also have matchup experience. I have played against Kage and almost beat him in a money match (went to fifth game, final stock). I also play with a local Ganon a lot, and he'll tell you that G&W is a hard matchup.
G&W should never shield against Ganon, because he doesn't have to. All of Ganon's moves can be avoided and punished. Every time Ganon jumps, Game and Watch can fair before a move comes out. I think the only exception to this is Ganon's bair which can be outspaced easily.
You shouldn't be looking to "outprioritize" Ganon's moves. You should be looking to attack before and after his moves have hitboxes.
G&W's defensive options are fine against Ganon. His fair and nair, even bair can beat Ganon's moves before they come out. Bair especially cuts through everything Ganon has.
Spacies, Sheik and Marth are definitely harder matchups than Ganon is.
G&W should never shield against Ganon, because he doesn't have to. All of Ganon's moves can be avoided and punished. Every time Ganon jumps, Game and Watch can fair before a move comes out. I think the only exception to this is Ganon's bair which can be outspaced easily.
You shouldn't be looking to "outprioritize" Ganon's moves. You should be looking to attack before and after his moves have hitboxes.
G&W's defensive options are fine against Ganon. His fair and nair, even bair can beat Ganon's moves before they come out. Bair especially cuts through everything Ganon has.
Spacies, Sheik and Marth are definitely harder matchups than Ganon is.
Jeyfar
Smash Apprentice
You are right in some areas, there are some Ganons I do beat, good ones, but the only ones I beat are rusher-style based mentality. My brother however uses a "watch opponent, look for opening, hugely exploit any mistake" gameplay, so he's really hard to beat. I've only been able to leave him with one stock using G&W and can only win with my own Ganon on rare occassions. As for G&W nair don't use it to counter Ganon's fair, I think it's a waste of time since Ganon's can eat it out, you can however, wave dash back --> parachute or Shoe box or credit card ( i call it the shoe box) or just know as fair
(maybe I'm just saying this stuff out of ignorance, I'm pretty nooby to G&W, started using him like 5 months back, I've just used Ganon my entire life from 2005 to now, so my G&W isn't that super fast or great, but I consider it decent at best)
(maybe I'm just saying this stuff out of ignorance, I'm pretty nooby to G&W, started using him like 5 months back, I've just used Ganon my entire life from 2005 to now, so my G&W isn't that super fast or great, but I consider it decent at best)
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Ganon is certainly way easier than spacies & Sheik. I dunno enough about Marth vs GaW but spacies and Sheik are super duper rough on GaW.
Beat!
Smash Master
I think Fox might be a little tougher than Falco.
Marth solidly beats GaW, but not as badly as spacies/Sheik. Can be tricky if you don't know the MU though.
Marth solidly beats GaW, but not as badly as spacies/Sheik. Can be tricky if you don't know the MU though.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Fox takes a massive diarrhea dump on GaW so I could see that.
Beat!
Smash Master
On second thought, I think I agree with that.
I dunno, it's between Sheik and Marth for sure. They are both slower characters. Fox and Falco can just mindlessly be agressive against GnW and actually get away with it, just because of their speed and priority. It's dumb.
Beat!
Smash Master
The reason I'm going a bit back and forth is that I play PAL, so it's a bit hard for me to tell how much Sheik's downthrow buff helps her in this particular matchup (because Marth is definitely better vs GaW in PAL).
bubbaking
Smash Hero
Well, thanks, but you know, most of this info is kind of basic and already well-known. Don't hesitate to share your thoughts, though.
Well, no offense, but you're kinda new here and you live in.....Puerto Rico. I'm not saying that you don't know what you're saying or that living in Puerto Rico invalidates your opinion, but it seems like you haven't really had the time to rack up much experience yet, and even if you did, it's probably harder to gain meaningful matchup information in PR than in the rest of the US.
Wow... Most of these chars wreck G&W much harder than Ganon does. Fox outspaces and outcamps us, Shiek completely obliterates us, Marth outzones and combos us, and Peach stabs G&W's shield much worse than Ganon can even hope to.
Don't forget uair. Ganon's uair comes out pretty fast and it covers quite a bit of range.
IMO, Sheik is way harder than Marth. Marth does terrible things to Watch w/ throws? Well, so does Sheik. Sheik gets dthrow CGs as well as dthrow>ftilt>death combos. Sheik can also outcamp w/ needles, just to be mean.
That throw DESTROYS Game & Watch. That move may just be the single most matchup-breaking attack in Melee. It kills Samus. It combos at least 3/4 of the Smash cast and leads to tech-chases on the rest. Oh, and just for kicks and giggles, it can CG, like, a quarter of the cast. Wth?!? >
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Sheik's CG goes from 0-11 if you pick the correct port, I believe. So, no, not a real argument. Her throw still ***** him, however. Tipped up smash on everything but DI away (KOs at dumb percents), and free fair on DI away (you can also get cheat regrabs this way to extend combos, etc).
I think Sheik's easy kills and the needles make her the harder MU, but I don't really care too much about which of the two is harder. I'd imagine if Marth is smart and tips F-smash on his tech options and does proper Marth combos on the DIs that force him to combo rather than tech chase then it's probably very close between the two. His shield grab is also... really gay against Gaw because of its sheer size. Makes all manner of aerial pressure unsafe unless it was done super duper low (whereas Sheik you can get away with a bit more).
Side note: I don't think Peach is really that bad at this point. I still think she has the advantage, but Gaw's mobility is really good around the level as a whole and it's annoying for her to chase that. His ability to stick gigantic hitboxes into her airspace is also good. KOing throw combos (and aerials) prevent her from dragging the stock out forever via heavy shielding (like she does vs a lot of characters).
Ganon isn't really that bad. Just awkward.
Bubbaking - Jigglypuff's down+B. That is all.
I think Sheik's easy kills and the needles make her the harder MU, but I don't really care too much about which of the two is harder. I'd imagine if Marth is smart and tips F-smash on his tech options and does proper Marth combos on the DIs that force him to combo rather than tech chase then it's probably very close between the two. His shield grab is also... really gay against Gaw because of its sheer size. Makes all manner of aerial pressure unsafe unless it was done super duper low (whereas Sheik you can get away with a bit more).
Side note: I don't think Peach is really that bad at this point. I still think she has the advantage, but Gaw's mobility is really good around the level as a whole and it's annoying for her to chase that. His ability to stick gigantic hitboxes into her airspace is also good. KOing throw combos (and aerials) prevent her from dragging the stock out forever via heavy shielding (like she does vs a lot of characters).
Ganon isn't really that bad. Just awkward.
Bubbaking - Jigglypuff's down+B. That is all.
Beat!
Smash Master
@bubbaking
Yeah, I know what Sheik's dthrow is like in NTSC. I meant vs GaW specifically.
Marth combos GaW to smithereens, and edgeguarding is free as ****. Tipper kills him at like 10% (ok, not really, but you get what I mean), and it's not even that hard to finish combos with.
In neutral game you can usually just wait for GaW to do something and choose one of several punish options. FoD should be banned.
No idea if that's enough to make him worse than Sheik though.
Yeah, I know what Sheik's dthrow is like in NTSC. I meant vs GaW specifically.
Marth combos GaW to smithereens, and edgeguarding is free as ****. Tipper kills him at like 10% (ok, not really, but you get what I mean), and it's not even that hard to finish combos with.
In neutral game you can usually just wait for GaW to do something and choose one of several punish options. FoD should be banned.
No idea if that's enough to make him worse than Sheik though.