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Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

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smashbot226

Smash Master
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Sep 1, 2007
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Waiting for you to slip up.
Well, in spite of the above poster's complaint, here is my accumulated Tier List:
I swear to God, if ANYONE remarks a certain something on my list, I'll rip their cheekbones out!


Top:

Falco
Diddy
Fox
Lucas/Ness (Highly Debatable)
Wolf
Toon Link
Mario

Upper:

Marth
Captain Falcon
Snake
Peach
Zelda & Shiek
Pokemon Trainer
Link
Lucario

Middle:

Ice Climbers
King Dedede
Pit
Meta Knight
Samus & Zero Suit Samus
Pikachu
Sonic
Olimar
Jigglypuff
Luigi
R.O.B.
Mr. Game n Watch
Yoshi
Wario

Lower:

Bowser
Donkey Kong
Ike

Bottom:

Kirby
Ganondorf
 

KingofCereal

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 30, 2007
Messages
252
Location
DC
The crazy character combinations (Lucas/Ness?) aside I need to know what this list is based off of, smashbot226. I question your placement of nearly every single character. Wario is bottom? Meta Knight below Yoshi? or Link? or pretty much anyone? Captain Falcon as high tier? Mario is top?
 
Joined
Dec 18, 2007
Messages
45
Location
Diamond Bar
Out of my gameplay and other comments about the characters, i say this- There is no tier list. No one can classify the brawl characters correctly after a month has gone by. YOu must have a longer playing period in order to establish a correct tier list. The previous tier lists sound good and maybe correct, but we do not know for sure if it is the officlal list. Also, people overlook characters. Pikachu, Game and Watch, Donkey Kong, and others got improved. Everyone is almost balanced. But still make tier lists, its interesting to see how other players rank the characters.
 

smashbot226

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 1, 2007
Messages
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Waiting for you to slip up.
To King of Cereal:

Lucas/Ness means that which one is better is highly debatable, hence the /.

Wario is bottom IMHO because his overall offense is relatively weak, not strong enough to keep up with Ganondorf or Charizard, yet not fast enough to outrun even Mario or Lucas.

This gives him a balanced stance with short range moves.

Wario's B moves...

His Chomp, just forget defending it. It's got shorter range than it takes for item grabbing range and is easily counterable.

His Corkscrew is incredibly unsafe if missed, and the overall vertical, not to mention horizontal, distance is bloody terrible.

The Waft is useful to a small extent. It actually has KO potential out of his B moves at a full charge, yet even THAT takes at least two minutes.

The Bike is his best B, if any, move. It gives him extra vertical and horizontal distance, and with a total of four jumps, (His normal two jumps, Bike, and Corkscrew) he's got fantastic recovery. He's also unrivaled, except by Jigglypuff, in aerial capabilities.

Overall, he's a pretty bad character.
 

WolvyDaPope

Smash Rookie
Joined
Sep 5, 2007
Messages
11
You can't deny the existence of tiers. I hate them, but I know it is near impossible to make a completely balanced fighter, as all it takes is one adavntage over someone else to prove tiers in a game.

Mario is better but is by no means high, and Wario is not low.

I honestly think there will be four tiers, a small top (3-5), high middle (12-14), low middle (13-15), and a small bottom (3-5). The nice balance makes a large middle split by minor differences and very small extremes. I am not super-pro, so I won't list my exact tier list (Ganondorf is definitely bottom), but I think my general idea for the list is a reasonable idea.
 

Icege

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 12, 2005
Messages
94
Location
Charleston, SC
As opposed to people posting individual thoughts with no intention of debating their views or willingness to change their minds, why don't we actually begin to discuss a tier list?

Almost every single list has Toon Link as a top tier character. I think it's pretty easy to say then that he's definitely top. In my own opinion, he's the best character in the game, but that's neither here nor there. I wouldn't be surprised if I were wrong, but from my current experience (or lack thereof), Toon Link is a beast.

There's also a universal agreement on Gannondorf and Captain Falcon both being at the bottom of the list. My question here is: Which one is the worst? Why? If they're not bottom, where should they be and why?

If there's any disagreement on the current status of these three characters, please post your reasons. Any posts that contain flaming, trolling, snippy remarks, refusal to accept other views, or blatant idiocy will be ignored.

So far then...

Top Tier
Toon Link

Bottom Tier
Gannondorf
Captain Falcon

The rest: TBD

Any objections?

I'd like to discuss where Pit and Meta Knight both stand next. If you have a detailed opinion on a different character, feel free to post it up. Please make sure you explain in detail why you put the character where you do. Not just garbage like, "He/She/They is teh f4st."
 

WolvyDaPope

Smash Rookie
Joined
Sep 5, 2007
Messages
11
O god, are Lucas ans Ness the new Roy and Marth in this tier war? If so, despite being close, I'd have to say Lucas competes better against "top tier" characters than Ness, and a slightly better recovery might help. These may make or break the tier war 2.0 (the space animals might add some heat to this fire).

Lucas - Has more "PK" oriented attacks, has good upsmash, I think his pk fire is better (keep space), and pk freeze is nice. Better wavebounce, if I'm not mistaken?


Ness - More physical than Lucas in my opinion (mind you, I play Lucas a LOT more), yo-yo ok for juggling, and that's the extent of my knowledge.

Not that in depth but at least not "LUKIS HAZ BLOND HAER WICH = GHEY BOTTOM TIER"
 
Joined
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Location
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Yes. I see that Lucas has a better moveset than ness and has a better competitive edge. Lucas can be higher than Ness., but other players may object to that. And I do believe TOon Link deserves to be top/high. Hes fast and strong. A lot of people agree to that. THe other character, i dont know.
 

WolvyDaPope

Smash Rookie
Joined
Sep 5, 2007
Messages
11
Toon Link is by far top tier, enough said. His speed and attacks are amazing.

Now for Ganondorf/Falcon. I never play Falcon, so I cannot give a good opinion, but I know, for at least to me, Ganondorf is not just slow but awkward. He is just painfully slow, has sucky fast attacks, and is a worse Falcon, who appearantly is crap. I am confident Falcon can dominate Ganondorf completely. I move that Ganondorf is lowest.
 

Icege

Smash Apprentice
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Nov 12, 2005
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94
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Charleston, SC
Also, I think the tier listing for 2v2s would be a bit different. Once we get 1v1 taken care of, I'd like to try and figure something out for 2s :)
 

WolvyDaPope

Smash Rookie
Joined
Sep 5, 2007
Messages
11
Two vs Two will be a tad different for sure, but I never saw any indepth character specific 2vs2 strats, so I'm asssuming Brawl will follow suite and be pretty close.

I was thinking that it might be easier to classify the "clones" first (space animals, mother brothers, dorf/falcon, mario brothers, links,am I missing anyone?). I know they are all amazingly luigified and almost unique, but it is an easy start.
 

P.c. Chris

Smash Lord
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Jan 5, 2005
Messages
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Location
Port Chester Stadium
Well, in spite of the above poster's complaint, here is my accumulated Tier List:
I swear to God, if ANYONE remarks a certain something on my list, I'll rip their cheekbones out!


Top:

Falco
Diddy
Fox
Lucas/Ness (Highly Debatable)
Wolf
Toon Link
Mario

Upper:

Marth
Captain Falcon
Snake
Peach
Zelda & Shiek
Pokemon Trainer
Link
Lucario

Middle:

Ice Climbers
King Dedede
Pit
Meta Knight
Samus & Zero Suit Samus
Pikachu
Sonic
Olimar
Jigglypuff
Luigi
R.O.B.
Mr. Game n Watch
Yoshi
Wario

Lower:

Bowser
Donkey Kong
Ike

Bottom:

Kirby
Ganondorf
i could of thrown characters in a random generator and came out with a better list than this x_x.
 

.kR0

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 2, 2006
Messages
410
Location
New York
I'm just going to post what characters will probably be top and high tier because thats the part of the tier list that actually matters.

Top (in no particular order)
Snake
Toon
Marth (what a ***got)

High
Spacies (Fox, Wolf, Falco)
R.O.B
MK
Olimar
Lucas
D3

Mid and Low tier are probably going to have minimal differences or just characters that could be potentially good as counterpicks. Zamus, Ike, Pit, Pika, Wario and Lucario will overall be slightly better than the rest of the cast not mentioned.
 

Dynamism?

Smash Champion
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Mar 25, 2008
Messages
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Location
BC, Canaaaanada
lol I love these tier list threads. I totally disagree with everything! haha

Anyways, Random is top tier, we all know that. You can't counter pick it but a Random user can use any character to counter pick you. A no brainer really ;)

blah blah blah You've all read my massive post lol...no probably not...whatever, it's there if you want to know. My tier list is the only correct one so far *walks away proud laughing out loud*
 

Dynamism?

Smash Champion
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Messages
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BC, Canaaaanada
Ok, Pikachu not top, Luigi not bottom, Sonic is trash not high.
I'd say Pika is top lol
That's just me though I guess. Luigi can be high too, but not Sonic lol

Nice post.

I agree with most of your points, but disagree with others. Maybe this is based off your experiences, but my Sheik is wild and dominant.

Random for top tier. xD
It is based on my experience because that ultimatly is all I have to go by other than opinions from others on those I've played and from those I've played. But perceptions are always clearer when you paint them yourself. And considering I use every character equally, I seem to have a better grasp of this than many. On the other hand, that's only me and my early and minimal experience. Random is teh Broken btw lol

Sheik is freakin crazy, but the reason I don't she will last is because she is predictable and repetitive with simple tactics that work "for now" and that only goes so far. Same reason I put the likes of Lucario so low. etc...

I think Fox will probably still be top tier. Everyone's forgotten him a little because we like using the new characters so much, but just wait, Fox is still gonna take people out.
Agreed, he has some great match ups...just a lot of horrible ones too. That's what keeps him out of top. Even out of high. Mid is still reachable but he needs some dramatic changes and discoveries to overcome much of the roster ahead of him.

I wish C. Falcon had the same fate.

Tierwise, at least.
It took a good year for people like Isai to bring Falcon to the same level as everyone else. Why, is in my big *** post ^^^ lol

For **** sake, I had this bigass discussion of your theory, Dynamism, but my ****in' web browser **** the bed on me and I lost it. In short, I think you're overlooking part of the nature of the game, or a possible nature of it. In Melee, there was sort of a rock-paper-scissors with shielding, attacking, and grabbing. Also, there's the idea of "playing chicken" with people...if you're going to try to juggle someone, you don't want to commit to something and miss...you might want to jump, appearing to get ready to juggle, and making them do something stupid, like attack or jump, and then make your move....this sort of mentality will likely be applied to Brawl, especially with the newfound defensive nature of it. That being said, characters like Ike, who control a great deal of space in their immediate vicinity and killing power, will succeed. Characters like Meta Knight who have good pressuring skills and killing power will succeed.....simply because you shouldn't commit to something until you have an opportunity, and these types of characters can force opportunities or simply wait for them.
That sucks when that happens :(
That only goes so far though, I'm more or less trying to NOT overlook the other possible side to the game. Might not be the nature, but off stage play and defensive play were always part of it.

And that type of opportunity play, I think of it as Peach comboing in melee.

Here's a quote from Endrees Blog that is about Peach

Praxis wrote at 2:28 PM on Apr 3, 2008 :
Very good read, but your comments on Peach struck an interesting note with me. What you describe is EXACTLY how I play Peach- reading my opponents. I don't memorize combos or use the same series of attacks- I adjust based on who I'm playing and figure out how they tend to react. I've heard it from others who play Peach too.
(End quote)

(my quote)
Peach could combo plenty in melee and can again in Brawl. It's just not what anyone is used to. Now a Marth can't chain grabs, fairs and utilts together without thinking much. They have to follow and chase and trick. That's why I've heard from various Peach players that the transition was so easy, and it's not just because they're using Peach for many of them main other characters now and still feel the same about them.
(End quote)

You from above
"and making them do something stupid, like attack " key word, smash attack. This may sound odd but most smash attacks don't work on me anymore and wont work well on any good players in the future. Why I think this is explained in my big post but it all comes down to the defensive game and stiking on opportunity. That's why characters like Sonic (don't disregard him just yet, Falcon was bottom in melee for a while too you know) may just become a winning character after all.

"She does lack in reliable finishers. The ones she does have take long to come out and lag so she has to be precise to get the kill."

I agree with some of this, but that above statement is completely wrong. She has so much KO power its ridiculous and they all have very little lag and the forward B is very spammable. She does fly off the stage easily, but has great recovery otherwise contrary to what people are saying about her getting gimped. I don't understand how you put her so low with this mini review, but you said good things about every character so I really don't get your list in general, though alot of it is decent.
Yes, she has kill power. I've actually used her the least because I can't Random to her often, but that statement is a little false I admit. lol And her recovery is just fine, and her speed is great. It's an old post ok?!? lol No biggy, I still don't think she is much better than many of the characters above her.
Don't get it? hahaha that's awesome. Yeah, it's not the usual thing. I've kind of taken this game from another angle and from other sides. It's not the current tier list that's for sure, but it's a futuristic one I'm sure. And every character can stand their ground, I feel comfortable in winning with anyone right now. It's really quite interesting. In melee, I wasn't comfortable with so many so soon and I was as good as I am now after about the same time span when I started melee. It's going to be an interesting couple years of smash lol

Good luck winning with yoshi.
Thanks, shouldn't need too much... ;)

Edit: Oh, and I've recently decided that I love wolves, like the actual animal. What's the matter, scared? lol I love the taunts in this freakin game!!!
 

Zook

Perpetual Lazy Bum
Joined
Jul 30, 2005
Messages
5,178
Location
Stamping your library books.
Aah, here's a Movement Speed tier list!


Top:

Sonic
Pikachu
Falcon
Diddy
Fox
Falco

Upper:

Shiek
Squirtle
ZSS
MK

Medium (Quite a doozy):

Marth
Toon Link
Lucas
Yoshi
Mario
MGNW
Zelda
Kirby
Ivysaur
Olimar
Luigi
Samus
Link
DK
Wario
Wolf

Lower:
Peach
IC
Ness
Lucario
R.O.B.
Pit
Jigglypuff
Ike
Snake
Charizard

Bottom:

Ganondorf
Dedede
Bowser
Wait, have you even played as Charizard? That fat dragon can run fast as Pika, I'm pretty sure.
As well as weight classifications:

Light:

Falco
Fox
Jiggs
Kirby
MK
MGNW
Olimar
Peach
Pikachu
Ivysaur
ZSS
Zelda
Shiek

Light Medium:

Diddy
IC
Marth
T. Link

Medium:

Link
Lucas
Mario
Ness
Pit
Squirtle
Sonic
Wolf

Heavy Medium:

Falcon
Luigi

Heavy:

Bowser
DK
Ganondorf
Ike
D3
Lucario
R.O.B.
Charizard
Samus
Snake
Wario
Yoshi
(Note that the weight list isn't ordered, just listed from memory. The Speed List isn't however.)
Yeah, I'm gonna take a guess that you used Mario's F-Smash to do this test. Well, there's one huge flaw to that...

Ivysaur takes more knockback from fire-based moves (Falcon Punch, Red Pikmin, Mario's F-Smash, etc.), whilst Squirtle is resistant to them. If you want to conduct and accurate test, use a non-elemental move.

Ivysaur is heavier that Squirle, and Squirtle's definately a light character.

This has been proven, btw.
 

Reyairia

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 3, 2007
Messages
2,473
Odd that most of the speculated high/top tiers are newcomers and therefore the ones people would practice with the most given that they do have the "new" feeling.
 

Metro Knight

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 27, 2008
Messages
705
Location
Mississippi
Well, Falcon isn't that bad. I love how you guys just jump on the forum band wagon, and don't even try and play the characters. Falcon's knee wasn't even nerfed that much, like I was hitting my brother with it on my first attempt at playing the new falcon and it wasn't that bad, and I still had some major grab game going on. You still might be able to combo the knee after you hit them with a dair, so I don't think Falcon is all that bad. Like, he moves slightly slower. The knee still kills people and spikes at very low percentages. Well around 60-80%, in brawl that is pretty low. Also, his jump moves really ****ing fast, so if you have a strong air game with him, you might not even notice the speed difference, since you are not running. Anyways, I think saying Falcon is bottom tier with Ganon is ********. I think he is still very playable.

Ganon might be the worst character he moves so ****ing slow, I can't imagine anyone playing him seriously. I mean literally you have to use his dspecial to get around or his sidestep. Both are faster than his walk. His moves have decent priority, his upsmash and his fair will go through sparkles a lot of the time, and ness' sparkles have a godly amount of priority. But yea, I think Ganon is still the worst through, even if he has some decent attacks. The chokeslam is a lot of fun, esp when you get the suicide kill.
 

Repryx

Smash Champion
Joined
May 30, 2007
Messages
2,853
Location
Skyrim
Well, in spite of the above poster's complaint, here is my accumulated Tier List:
I swear to God, if ANYONE remarks a certain something on my list, I'll rip their cheekbones out!


Top:

Falco
Diddy
Fox
Lucas/Ness (Highly Debatable)
Wolf
Toon Link
Mario

Upper:

Marth
Captain Falcon
Snake
Peach
Zelda & Shiek
Pokemon Trainer
Link
Lucario

Middle:

Ice Climbers
King Dedede
Pit
Meta Knight
Samus & Zero Suit Samus
Pikachu
Sonic
Olimar
Jigglypuff
Luigi
R.O.B.
Mr. Game n Watch
Yoshi
Wario

Lower:

Bowser
Donkey Kong
Ike

Bottom:

Kirby
Ganondorf


??
Do you have the game??

I mean Seriously Falco top of the top tier while MK is Mid-Tier??? Blasphemy! Off with his head!

-Ciao
 

BDawgPHD

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 1, 2007
Messages
751
I'd say Pika is top lol
That's just me though I guess. Luigi can be high too, but not Sonic lol



It is based on my experience because that ultimatly is all I have to go by other than opinions from others on those I've played and from those I've played. But perceptions are always clearer when you paint them yourself. And considering I use every character equally, I seem to have a better grasp of this than many. On the other hand, that's only me and my early and minimal experience. Random is teh Broken btw lol

Sheik is freakin crazy, but the reason I don't she will last is because she is predictable and repetitive with simple tactics that work "for now" and that only goes so far. Same reason I put the likes of Lucario so low. etc...



Agreed, he has some great match ups...just a lot of horrible ones too. That's what keeps him out of top. Even out of high. Mid is still reachable but he needs some dramatic changes and discoveries to overcome much of the roster ahead of him.



It took a good year for people like Isai to bring Falcon to the same level as everyone else. Why, is in my big *** post ^^^ lol



That sucks when that happens :(
That only goes so far though, I'm more or less trying to NOT overlook the other possible side to the game. Might not be the nature, but off stage play and defensive play were always part of it.

And that type of opportunity play, I think of it as Peach comboing in melee.

Here's a quote from Endrees Blog that is about Peach

Praxis wrote at 2:28 PM on Apr 3, 2008 :
Very good read, but your comments on Peach struck an interesting note with me. What you describe is EXACTLY how I play Peach- reading my opponents. I don't memorize combos or use the same series of attacks- I adjust based on who I'm playing and figure out how they tend to react. I've heard it from others who play Peach too.
(End quote)

(my quote)
Peach could combo plenty in melee and can again in Brawl. It's just not what anyone is used to. Now a Marth can't chain grabs, fairs and utilts together without thinking much. They have to follow and chase and trick. That's why I've heard from various Peach players that the transition was so easy, and it's not just because they're using Peach for many of them main other characters now and still feel the same about them.
(End quote)

You from above
"and making them do something stupid, like attack " key word, smash attack. This may sound odd but most smash attacks don't work on me anymore and wont work well on any good players in the future. Why I think this is explained in my big post but it all comes down to the defensive game and stiking on opportunity. That's why characters like Sonic (don't disregard him just yet, Falcon was bottom in melee for a while too you know) may just become a winning character after all.



Yes, she has kill power. I've actually used her the least because I can't Random to her often, but that statement is a little false I admit. lol And her recovery is just fine, and her speed is great. It's an old post ok?!? lol No biggy, I still don't think she is much better than many of the characters above her.
Don't get it? hahaha that's awesome. Yeah, it's not the usual thing. I've kind of taken this game from another angle and from other sides. It's not the current tier list that's for sure, but it's a futuristic one I'm sure. And every character can stand their ground, I feel comfortable in winning with anyone right now. It's really quite interesting. In melee, I wasn't comfortable with so many so soon and I was as good as I am now after about the same time span when I started melee. It's going to be an interesting couple years of smash lol



Thanks, shouldn't need too much... ;)

Edit: Oh, and I've recently decided that I love wolves, like the actual animal. What's the matter, scared? lol I love the taunts in this freakin game!!!
Yea, I could see you not getting hit by smash attacks, depending on how careful you are with your lag, but against characters like Meta Knight who have a dsmash that has zero startup lag, you'll have problems. The characters that get stuck in lag will be the most vulnerable, be it from a missed attack or a flubbed recovery. That's why I say characters like Pikachu and Meta Knight will be top tier, because they have negligible lag on just about everything, making it hard to punish them, yet they're very solid killers. Outside of that, it just becomes a game of being unpredictable enough to catch the other player off guard, or play a good enough control game to keep people away from you. Snake is predicted as top tier because some people know how to use snake's projectiles to really mess with people, and despite things like dodging and power shielding, good snake players keep that in mind as they try to maintain control. In addition, snake also has good control in CQC, oddly enough :chuckle:

I just think that even as your new meta game develops, a lot of ideas from the old meta game will live on because of their vast usefulness, and they will keep the defensive aspects of Brawl in check.
 

SharpSymmetry

Smash Rookie
Joined
Apr 10, 2008
Messages
3
umm the game is very balanced.. Seriously, just most people don't care to pay attention, yes some characters are better than others but not by much and at times it's not noticable at all, and some are very noticable like Toon Link being way better than link and marth being a lot worse than Melee. Donkey Kong getting an extreme boost and Luigi changing greatly and kirby with stronger aerial attacks. PERIOD.

Kabii ^.^
 

Metro Knight

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 27, 2008
Messages
705
Location
Mississippi
Egh, I agree with you Sharp, HOWEVER. I think your Toon Link > Link comment is wrong. Link is a god :o. For the most part all of the top tier people, got slightly worse, I think the Ice Climbers and Mario got effected the least out of this, even though I think Mario's flud and his cape nerf suck. Also, all the bottom tier people all got better. I think Ness got the biggest boost of all, we went from like hardly playable, to "wow, this kid owns".
And Pikachu isn't the best character whoever said that. He is better since they gave him Peach's old move, minus the absurd damage it did, but he is NOT the best character. That list, was perhaps the worst list I have ever seen. Even though, I think Tier Lists for the most part are worthless, until we see who people are actually winning at Tournaments with.
 

PIMPSLAP

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 13, 2007
Messages
1,189
Location
Snakes BAIR
thats why i made the chars that are winning tourny's
like
snake
G&W
MK

And falco have ont the most tourny i even amazingly seen a dk take first.......................wow
 

BDawgPHD

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 1, 2007
Messages
751
Egh, I agree with you Sharp, HOWEVER. I think your Toon Link > Link comment is wrong. Link is a god :o. For the most part all of the top tier people, got slightly worse, I think the Ice Climbers and Mario got effected the least out of this, even though I think Mario's flud and his cape nerf suck. Also, all the bottom tier people all got better. I think Ness got the biggest boost of all, we went from like hardly playable, to "wow, this kid owns".
And Pikachu isn't the best character whoever said that. He is better since they gave him Peach's old move, minus the absurd damage it did, but he is NOT the best character. That list, was perhaps the worst list I have ever seen. Even though, I think Tier Lists for the most part are worthless, until we see who people are actually winning at Tournaments with.
The thing is....you need to play good people that main each character before you can make a real judgment call. My friend is an excellent Pikachu, and he showed me how ridiculous Pikachu is. Trust me, I main Meta Knight, the toppest tiered character ever, for all I know I probably play people that are better than me, yet I'm good at punishing, and I don't get punished because I'm Meta Knight. But I couldn't punish his Pikachu for a while, and I was getting owned like all the time, and even worse...I was actually losing games, and not because I glide off the edge like a dumb ***. Trust me, Pikachu is top tier, I know this to be a fact.
 

Dynamism?

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
Messages
2,136
Location
BC, Canaaaanada
Well, Falcon isn't that bad. I love how you guys just jump on the forum band wagon, and don't even try and play the characters. Falcon's knee wasn't even nerfed that much, like I was hitting my brother with it on my first attempt at playing the new falcon and it wasn't that bad, and I still had some major grab game going on. You still might be able to combo the knee after you hit them with a dair, so I don't think Falcon is all that bad. Like, he moves slightly slower. The knee still kills people and spikes at very low percentages. Well around 60-80%, in brawl that is pretty low. Also, his jump moves really ****ing fast, so if you have a strong air game with him, you might not even notice the speed difference, since you are not running. Anyways, I think saying Falcon is bottom tier with Ganon is ********. I think he is still very playable.

Ganon might be the worst character he moves so ****ing slow, I can't imagine anyone playing him seriously. I mean literally you have to use his dspecial to get around or his sidestep. Both are faster than his walk. His moves have decent priority, his upsmash and his fair will go through sparkles a lot of the time, and ness' sparkles have a godly amount of priority. But yea, I think Ganon is still the worst through, even if he has some decent attacks. The chokeslam is a lot of fun, esp when you get the suicide kill.
I like the way you're backing up Falcon. He is a good character that can stand his ground against many but as of now, the old tricks don't work. The new tricks, wont be enough. In melee, it to strike on opportunity characters a year to get good because they had to use their opportunities to lead into finishers that they did have. Falcon doesn't have the easy finishers and can't lead into them as well, this is what will hold him back. Other things like his Falcon Punch, Falcon Kick and mid air Side B and landing to cancel into something might even come into play more. He will always be a little too 1 tracked to be a threat to every character because this time around, speed and combo doesn't = chain and kill

Ganon has a lot of good things going for him. You could almost argue the same slow aspects with other characters. Zelda and Bowser don't move much and Ikes moves themselves are slower. Ganon just can't get from place to place that quick. When he's in that striking range from SideB and DownB, he's as much a threat as anyone really.

Yea, I could see you not getting hit by smash attacks, depending on how careful you are with your lag, but against characters like Meta Knight who have a dsmash that has zero startup lag, you'll have problems. The characters that get stuck in lag will be the most vulnerable, be it from a missed attack or a flubbed recovery. That's why I say characters like Pikachu and Meta Knight will be top tier, because they have negligible lag on just about everything, making it hard to punish them, yet they're very solid killers. Outside of that, it just becomes a game of being unpredictable enough to catch the other player off guard, or play a good enough control game to keep people away from you. Snake is predicted as top tier because some people know how to use snake's projectiles to really mess with people, and despite things like dodging and power shielding, good snake players keep that in mind as they try to maintain control. In addition, snake also has good control in CQC, oddly enough :chuckle:

I just think that even as your new meta game develops, a lot of ideas from the old meta game will live on because of their vast usefulness, and they will keep the defensive aspects of Brawl in check.
That's exactly what I talked about in my big post and exactly why I said most smash attacks. :chuckle: Unless it's as fast as a Zelda boot or multi hitting like Pika, smash attacks don't work. PS nearly eliminates them and they are just not worth it. Especially at low %, if they're used to deal damage, attack negation weakens them too much to get a kill when they can finally kill with it. Projectiles and smashes don't work on me anymore. I've spent hours at a time with my bro just PSing back and forth with different attacks and attacking between shields. It's as easy as getting DI and spacing down, it's just not something that you can do all the time like the way we're constantly spacing and DIing in the game.
It's much more difficult online btw. lol It screws with me so I don't even bother. Live, I'll PS every arrow and both hits of Pits fsmash every time. It just takes some work to figure it out. :chuckle:


Egh, I agree with you Sharp, HOWEVER. I think your Toon Link > Link comment is wrong. Link is a god :o. For the most part all of the top tier people, got slightly worse, I think the Ice Climbers and Mario got effected the least out of this, even though I think Mario's flud and his cape nerf suck. Also, all the bottom tier people all got better. I think Ness got the biggest boost of all, we went from like hardly playable, to "wow, this kid owns".
And Pikachu isn't the best character whoever said that. He is better since they gave him Peach's old move, minus the absurd damage it did, but he is NOT the best character. That list, was perhaps the worst list I have ever seen. Even though, I think Tier Lists for the most part are worthless, until we see who people are actually winning at Tournaments with.
I'm glad you're backing up so many characters. :chuckle: This game is extremely balanced to the point where it's like melees middle tier and that's it lol
worst list? mine? lol I'm fine with that. Tier lists are worthless, they will be for a year. Tournament results will be worthless for a year. The metagame will be worthless for a year. But that's why we might as well discuss it, never know what could happn :psycho:
 

Dynamism?

Smash Champion
Joined
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Messages
2,136
Location
BC, Canaaaanada
The thing is....you need to play good people that main each character before you can make a real judgment call. My friend is an excellent Pikachu, and he showed me how ridiculous Pikachu is. Trust me, I main Meta Knight, the toppest tiered character ever, for all I know I probably play people that are better than me, yet I'm good at punishing, and I don't get punished because I'm Meta Knight. But I couldn't punish his Pikachu for a while, and I was getting owned like all the time, and even worse...I was actually losing games, and not because I glide off the edge like a dumb ***. Trust me, Pikachu is top tier, I know this to be a fact.
I agree. Obviously lol :laugh:

thats why i made the chars that are winning tourny's
like
snake
G&W
MK

And falco have ont the most tourny i even amazingly seen a dk take first.......................wow
Don't be surprised by DK. Yoshi, Ness, any of them. They are very well as Top Tierish as Marth and MK and G&W will ever be at this point. How often do you see DKs in tourneys? I bet not often. Funny what happens when there is one isn't it? ;)
 

KevinM

TB12 TB12 TB12
BRoomer
Joined
Jan 30, 2007
Messages
13,625
Location
Sickboi in the 401
Well, in spite of the above poster's complaint, here is my accumulated Tier List:
I swear to God, if ANYONE remarks a certain something on my list, I'll rip their cheekbones out!


Top:

Falco
Diddy
Fox
Lucas/Ness (Highly Debatable)
Wolf
Toon Link
Mario

Upper:

Marth
Captain Falcon
Snake
Peach
Zelda & Shiek
Pokemon Trainer
Link
Lucario

Middle:

Ice Climbers
King Dedede
Pit
Meta Knight
Samus & Zero Suit Samus
Pikachu
Sonic
Olimar
Jigglypuff
Luigi
R.O.B.
Mr. Game n Watch
Yoshi
Wario

Lower:

Bowser
Donkey Kong
Ike

Bottom:

Kirby
Ganondorf

lol no
 

PIMPSLAP

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 13, 2007
Messages
1,189
Location
Snakes BAIR
I agree. Obviously lol :laugh:



Don't be surprised by DK. Yoshi, Ness, any of them. They are very well as Top Tierish as Marth and MK and G&W will ever be at this point. How often do you see DKs in tourneys? I bet not often. Funny what happens when there is one isn't it? ;)
wow... um i guess but what i'm saying is look dk is so un natrally predictible it's not funny and MK is top tier easily But your intitled to your opinion

P.S In all Honesty i counter pick i have no main. i do like certain chars but thats it.
So tier are pretty useless in my opinion but i do like going through charecter matchups and seeing everyone weakness


P.S.S. Did you get Banned only your 6 post and your here hmmm....
 
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