Official BBR Tier List v7

[Luigi player]

Donkey kong doesn't have a bad
falco mu?
or diddy mu?
or ice climbers mu?
pikachu mu?

nope he doesnt

 

[Meru.]

I annoyed with all of the people complaining about the quote on quote name of the tiers. It's you're opinion on something small and essentially irrelevant to the whole point anyway.

Actually, I don't find it irrelevant at all. The tier names are supposed to accurately reflect the level of the character and eventually the balance of the game. We also could have called the tiers ULTRA GOOD, SUPER GOOD, VERY GOOD, QUITE GOOD and ALMOST GOOD but that just doesn't seem to make any sense because hardly can we call some characters any good.

Some balanced fighting games communities name their tiers with SS+, SS, S+,.... etc to like A-, just to indicate their even though there are tiers, the game is rougly balanced and the last characters are not even that bad. I remember many Tekken tier lists looking like this, I don't know if they still do.

This 'mid and low tier' make the mid tier and low tier sounds better than they are, especially relative to the other characters. Ganondorf isn't a low tier and I disapprove of calling Pokemon Trainer a mid tier. Fox and Peach and their friends are in the middle of the list and they are all 'pretty average' characters so why not just call them mid? They are mid in every sense they can be.

We're trying to trick ourselves if we say that Brawl has 29 characters that are at least "mid". Every character from R.O.B. on should be called low because they're lacking and they fit the criteria of low tier characters. Calling them mid tier characters would be an insult to every mid tier character existing and the same goes to the current "low" tier characters.

 

[ぱみゅ]

^Also, the fact it is called "official" implies they should have give formal, proper and professional-like names to every tier.
Like this, it sounds very informal and that they don't care at all.
Just sayin'.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Anyone around Kirby is like the definition of an Okay, average, mid tier character. Even distribution of good and bad matchups, moderate placings in tournament, and safe-but-not-super-safe options.

 

[stingers]

ROB is better than a lot of people above him though, so you'd be wrong there yay

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Actually, I don't find it irrelevant at all. The tier names are supposed to accurately reflect the level of the character and eventually the balance of the game. We also could have called the tiers ULTRA GOOD, SUPER GOOD, VERY GOOD, QUITE GOOD and ALMOST GOOD but that just doesn't seem to make any sense because hardly can we call some characters any good.

Some balanced fighting games communities name their tiers with SS+, SS, S+,.... etc to like A-, just to indicate their even though there are tiers, the game is rougly balanced and the last characters are not even that bad. I remember many Tekken tier lists looking like this, I don't know if they still do.

This 'mid and low tier' make the mid tier and low tier sounds better than they are, especially relative to the other characters. Ganondorf isn't a low tier and I disapprove of calling Pokemon Trainer a mid tier. Fox and Peach and their friends are in the middle of the list and they are all 'pretty average' characters so why not just call them mid? They are mid in every sense they can be.

We're trying to trick ourselves if we say that Brawl has 29 characters that are at least "mid". Every character from R.O.B. on should be called low because they're lacking and they fit the criteria of low tier characters. Calling them mid tier characters would be an insult to every mid tier character existing and the same goes to the current "low" tier characters.

This is like 100% true.

Tier list should be like:

Top:
MK through Snake

High:
Falco through Toon Link

Mid:
Wolf through Pit

Low or bottom:
Everyone else.

The reality is probably that brawl has a lot of high tier characters but a very small "middle tier" and a really big low tier. Most of the cast is balanced, but most of the cast is also unviable.

Top being strong constant tournament threats, high being strong characters with inconsistent results, mid being viable but with several counterpicks, and low/bottom being more or less invisible in the tournament scene.

For this reason I don't understand Ike and Sonic's position in the tiers they're in. You can argue theorycraft **** all day but it's 2012 and they still do work. They're both definitely mid tier characters, like they probably won't win things very often, but they can definitely place. We've got tons of empirical evidence to back that up.

 

[Tesh]

Lucas seems pretty obviously better than Luigi and PT.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Lucas seems pretty obviously better than Luigi and PT.

If only Squirtle were a solo character...

 

[PMC66]

Lucas seems pretty obviously better than Luigi and PT.

Lucas is terrible, i'm sorry but people think he should be mid tier i have one argument for you.

His matchup average is worse than Samuses, that alone and in itself should day something about the character. I know MU's don't decide tier placement but that says alot.

 

[infiniteV115]

Well, ideally, a character's placement on the tier list is basically their weighted MU spread, cause MUs make the character. You can't be a good character without a good MU spread; the only problem is that a lot of people disagree with MUs so we can't refer to the MU chart as 100% correct.

That said, I think Lucas' MUs are better than Samus' because I think Lucas is a better character. There are probably multiple people who agree with me XD

 

[Blacknight99923]

nope he doesnt

I'll get you for this

 

[Tesh]

If you are talking about the unweighted listing on the matchup chart, it also puts Yoshi above Sonic Sheilda/Kirby above Fox. Some matchups matter more than others.

 

[Lukingordex]

Lucas seems pretty obviously better than Luigi and PT.

 

[Aaven]

No, they just have to be renamed. Borderline is stupid, just call it mid, call those 'mid tiers character' low tiers (they're just no good!) and call the low tiers bottom tiers.

It's far more accurate and gives a more realistic picture.

Sorry, I should have been more efficient in the way I worded my statement. I agree with what you're saying, I believe the name "Borderline Tier" just seems silly, and the characters in it should have became the High or Mid Tier, I like them becoming Mid Tier better though, as you said.

 

[Meru.]

ROB is better than a lot of people above him though, so you'd be wrong there yay

That means his tier placement would be wrong then. I must admit I can't really imagine R.O.B being a low tier and I wouldn't mind him joining ranks with the true mids. The same goes for Lucas: their placements (possibly alongside the placements of other characters) should be reconsidered if tier names were to change.

Sadly I don't think a small edit is going to happen but I do wish that the tier names will be more accurate in the next version.

Sorry, I should have been more efficient in the way I worded my statement. I agree with what you're saying, I believe the name "Borderline Tier" just seems silly, and the characters in it should have became the High or Mid Tier, I like them becoming Mid Tier better though, as you said.

No need to be sorry, it was not directed at you. Don't worry, I'm full of love.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Yaaay you don't even play the game, everything you say is thus invalid.

 

[Mew2King]

Ironic cause you just play this game for money. You said it yourself.

i actually obsess over possibilities in this game a lot, but i never actually play it except like once a month at tournaments (recently closer to once every 2 months). It's mostly cuz im a loser w/ nothing better to do and I have OCD and can't stop myself. I can't even bring myself to do homework until the VERY last second when i have no other choice but to do it. I have a lot of problems and multiple times through the day (a day that i play it, so that means a tournament) i hate the game and then love it and it constantly changes. I guess u could say both the best and worst experiences ive had in life that i can recall atm both stem from the game maybe that is why idk

 

[Esotera]

I've noticed a lot of top level players and people that have played this game since it came out to be kind of burnt out on it... It's kind of depressing to see this as a person who is relatively new to the scene. What would you say makes you have such a love/hate relationships with this game, M2k? I'm interested in it from a psychological standpoint, really.

Also, I'm not familiar with other fighter game tier lists, but it seems to me like Sakurai didn't balance his character list very well. I think there should be 3 tiers of characters- High, Mid, and Low. It's pretty easy to see the distinction between quality of character design i think, barring a few exceptions.

 

[Claire Diviner]

i actually obsess over possibilities in this game a lot, but i never actually play it except like once a month at tournaments (recently closer to once every 2 months). It's mostly cuz im a loser w/ nothing better to do and I have OCD and can't stop myself. I can't even bring myself to do homework until the VERY last second when i have no other choice but to do it. I have a lot of problems and multiple times through the day (a day that i play it, so that means a tournament) i hate the game and then love it and it constantly changes. I guess u could say both the best and worst experiences ive had in life that i can recall atm both stem from the game maybe that is why idk

It's that kind of feeling of self-worthlessness that will bring you down. You can't let a game run your life like that. Also, you might want to blog this stuff, as people see posts like this as derailing the thread.

So, how's the write-ups going for characters? Any news on progress? I'd check past posts, but I don't want to sift through so many pages.

 

[Sol9000]

It's that kind of feeling of self-worthlessness that will bring you down. You can't let a game run your life like that. Also, you might want to blog this stuff, as people see posts like this as derailing the thread.

So, how's the write-ups going for characters? Any news on progress? I'd check past posts, but I don't want to sift through so many pages.

Why I'm not going to move to a Smash Scene or Make One Myself or even look for other players in my state.

 

[Claire Diviner]

Why I'm not going to move to a Smash Scene or Make One Myself or even look for other players in my state.

You're completely missing the point. You can be part of the Smash Scene and create your own community, etc., but you can't let it run your life and have it be of equal or higher priority than one's own personal life. I'll end it there, before this gets out of hand, if it hasn't already.

 

[VodkaHaze]

Can someone explain how Jiggs got up a place?

 

[z00ted]

You're completely missing the point. You can be part of the Smash Scene and create your own community, etc., but you can't let it run your life and have it be of equal or higher priority than one's own personal life.

I dislike these kind of people.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Jigglypuff has a better matchup spread when weighted for usefulness (while Jigglypuff and Link both have a -4 matchup, a -4 against G&W hurts less than a -4 against Falco, as Falco is much more common) and make significantly more money per user.

 

[Claire Diviner]

Jigglypuff has a better matchup spread when weighted for usefulness (while Jigglypuff and Link both have a -4 matchup, a -4 against G&W hurts less than a -4 against Falco, as Falco is much more common) and make significantly more money per user.

This explains DK's drop in placement because of the number of Dedede users in tourneys, I take it?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

This explains DK's drop in placement because of the number of Dedede users in tourneys, I take it?

I think the -3 against Meta Knight and Olimar and -2 against Ice Climbers both have more to do with it, as the only other characters with such a bad spread against the three best characters (matchup-wise, anyway) are low tier characters. Also, the only other characters with a -4 are Bowser, Jigglypuff, Link, and Ganondorf. His tournament presence has been weak in recent times, all of which probably influenced the voting section to go negatively for him, too. Multiple troubles came all at once.

 

[Orion*]

Actually, I don't find it irrelevant at all. The tier names are supposed to accurately reflect the level of the character and eventually the balance of the game. We also could have called the tiers ULTRA GOOD, SUPER GOOD, VERY GOOD, QUITE GOOD and ALMOST GOOD but that just doesn't seem to make any sense because hardly can we call some characters any good.

Some balanced fighting games communities name their tiers with SS+, SS, S+,.... etc to like A-, just to indicate their even though there are tiers, the game is rougly balanced and the last characters are not even that bad. I remember many Tekken tier lists looking like this, I don't know if they still do.

This 'mid and low tier' make the mid tier and low tier sounds better than they are, especially relative to the other characters. Ganondorf isn't a low tier and I disapprove of calling Pokemon Trainer a mid tier. Fox and Peach and their friends are in the middle of the list and they are all 'pretty average' characters so why not just call them mid? They are mid in every sense they can be.

We're trying to trick ourselves if we say that Brawl has 29 characters that are at least "mid". Every character from R.O.B. on should be called low because they're lacking and they fit the criteria of low tier characters. Calling them mid tier characters would be an insult to every mid tier character existing and the same goes to the current "low" tier characters.

apparently my response to this wasnt posted fml I have to rewrite later

 

[Patches]

You're completely missing the point. You can be part of the Smash Scene and create your own community, etc., but you can't let it run your life and have it be of equal or higher priority than one's own personal life. I'll end it there, before this gets out of hand, if it hasn't already.

Unfortunately, that's my region's TO. This game = his life.

 

[Dre89]

I don't understand the money-usage ratio system.

If I advance char X's metagame and have good results, why should the tier list not reflect that simply because 100 other X mains suck?

The amount of people using X doesn't change what the current peak of its meta is, and doesn't decrease the significance of that character's best results.

I thought the whole point of the tier list was to only consider high level play, yet then they use money-usage ratios, which means the lowest level of play affects tier placement.

A character's true potential would actually just be based purely on frame data, priority, physics etc. 'Current meta' would refer to the ATs etc. currently known. People always theorycraft about mix ups in MUs, but that is really a player v player thing, not char v char.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Again, this is why if you want Olimar to move down you just have to go to tournaments and lose with him.

This system is very skewed and bad.

 

[Cassio]

Technically you can win a bit. You just cant win money.

 

[Mew2King]

I've noticed a lot of top level players and people that have played this game since it came out to be kind of burnt out on it... It's kind of depressing to see this as a person who is relatively new to the scene. What would you say makes you have such a love/hate relationships with this game, M2k? I'm interested in it from a psychological standpoint, really.

Also, I'm not familiar with other fighter game tier lists, but it seems to me like Sakurai didn't balance his character list very well. I think there should be 3 tiers of characters- High, Mid, and Low. It's pretty easy to see the distinction between quality of character design i think, barring a few exceptions.

cuz community doesn't care anymore (never did actually when i think about it but even less recently), and that makes it very hard for me to care. I think Mango's kind of the same way in melee and it's kinda got him down too. i know that doesn't really make sense much but it's kind of how i think. It's hard to have motivation when you've already been at the top 3 years and no one even wants you to win at big tournaments (like all 3 apexes for example). Things like that make it hard for me to really really want to win like before or even play well or want to keep playing, but I'll still do it anyway for the sole purpose that even on my really bad days I can still make profit (so ill still show up to events here and there while rusty just cuz it's how i make money, but the way community treats me makes my experience very unenjoyable). Lately I have been liking the game but not liking the community because of how they treat me, whereas before I used to like both when it wasn't like that so much.

 

[Dre89]

I don't want to be one of those people who complains about the service the BBR is providing, but it is pretty silly that people who have never even played the game before could potentially damage a char's tier placement. It definitely contradicts the idea that the list only concerns high level play.

That is probably the most player based way of determining tier placement.

Frame data etc. is definitely the most char based.

 

[Esotera]

Thanks for your response. I feel like we are derailing the thread with this a little bit, but it makes me sad to see read that sort of post... I think P:M might breathe some new life into the community, I know it has where I'm at. Keep on truckin M2k.

I think the system for the tier placements should be revamped also. More basis on MUs and less emphasis on results. But no one cares what I think

 

[Eddie G]

Jason you kind of put that stigma on yourself over that long course of abusive, boring kind of play that you did (scrooging, planking, stage abuse, etc.). While people still do respect your skill as a player and your excellent aggression once you gain momentum...the fact of the matter is that your instances of timing people out, scrooging Gnes back in the day, memories like that tend to stick for a lot longer. Not to mention the OoC players were more hype just for the fact that we rarely get to see them match up with our best. People were hypeed for Brood against you because he basically woke everyone up and said "THIS is the kind of **** Olimar can do", or Ocean against you because he plays ****ing ROB against one of his toughest matchups lol. At the end of the day...I don't really see how you can blame a community for cheering in their direction under those circumstances.

 

[Dre89]

Eso- Except that even MU discussions are based on mix up theorycraft and the like.

Mix ups should have no say in MUs because that is one player outsmarting another.

 

[Mew2King]

Jason you kind of put that stigma on yourself over that long course of abusive, boring kind of play that you did (scrooging, planking, stage abuse, etc.). While people still do respect your skill as a player and your excellent aggression once you gain momentum...the fact of the matter is that your instances of timing people out, scrooging Gnes back in the day, memories like that tend to stick for a lot longer. Not to mention the OoC players were more hype just for the fact that we rarely get to see them match up with our best. People were hd for Brood against you because he basically woke everyone up and said "THIS is the kind of **** Olimar can do", or Ocean againt you because he plays ****ing ROB against one of his toughest matchups lol. At the end of the day...I don't really see how you can blame a community for cheering in their direction under those circumstances.

No, you're wrong, the first time I ever did this "scrooging" thing was just another idea I had of "this is a really effective way to win", but it happened to be so effective that it was now labeled as "gay" because no one could beat it. It's not my fault that my ideas that I came up with happen to be really, really good to the point that it has to be called that by the masses. Far, far before I played gay, people still did the same **** to me, so why should i change this? There are many times (such as recent set vs adhd/gnes and many other times) that I will purposely just straight up fight just to show I can just **** people normally, but it doesn't matter, because far before I did that, and afterwords, the result was the same (also, at Gen2, and the 3 MLGs, none of my matches went to time as far as i can remember except 5 seconds left when ally counterpicked me to brinstar). Since the early melee days in 2005 the only time the majority of people wanted me to win (including in my own state) was when i fought Ken; not even chu/azen/etc., so you're actually entirely wrong in what you're saying. I realized it wouldn't matter, nor should I have to change it. If I shouldn't be allowed to play to my max ability from my ideas with MK, then olimars shouldn't be able to camp with pikmin, falco shouldn't be able to run away with lasers and forward B never committing to an approach unless they are losing, snakes should not be able to camp with grenades, and ICs shouldn't be able to chain grab. It's the bias people have both against me and metaknight that brings them to think it's okay to hate on me and MK since me and MK have been winning for years and not okay to hate on anything else.

bbl, i cannot talk about this now because today and tomorrow are last day of finals and im leaving to class now

 

[Esotera]

I think the reason call the tactics that you're seemingly infamous for "gay" is because the nature of the game is to fight. Obviously, in a tourney setting, you're there to win, not to play. I personally don't have a problem with timing people out or scrooging, rules are rules, they should prepare for that. But I think people consider it "gay" because of how the tactics seem to be contradicting the nature of the game (but not the nature of competition, I must say). Also it's a pretty unmanly way to win, so that's another reason it's been called "gay".

 

[Eddie G]

...It's kind of hard to try and argue with a response like that. Like I said, the bad memories tend to stick with people a little harder than the good, or what your intentions were for that matter. I'm not personally trying to hate, just telling it like it is. Also, those other tactics are strong, yes, but other than ICs ensuring a kill with a grab...those other tactics could not possibly be compared to some of the **** MK can do on a whim.

 

[Mew2King]

i don't enjoy falcos, snakes, olimars, pits, and other characters running away to throw projectiles for as long as they possibly can, or being grabbed by ICs once at low % and dying 3 times in a row. All of that stuff may physically "appear" less gay, but it's almost as bad, and most of you haven't fought against it to the same level. MK playing dodgeball isn't even a good way to rack up %, it's just a good way to stall the timer to win, which is why, for years, I said to make the timer longer, but guess what? BBR voted it down since early 2009 so it could never pass so the rules always stayed at 8 minutes. Where is the line? Why should I willingly disadvantage myself for no reason when my income comes from this game as well as my desire to win. There is no reason to do that, except for the pure sake that people don't think it's as fun. It's not fun to watch any other character camp (including melee's metagame today btw) according to most people, and it's also evident that people in america dislike the same people winning over and over and constantly want change. Example: in melee, people hated mango's puff for a while as he was winning but then he stopped playing puff and now suddenly people want it back because they are bored and want change. The mindset of most americans (which they probably don't even realize because society shoves it down our throats a lot) is something i greatly disagree with. I tried to change the rules so the game was better 3 years ago and no one ever wants to listen so why should I not play my best? Do you understand the entire situation? It is pretty lame no matter which way you put it because of the rules and the way the community acts. It's reasons like this that I often want to leave, but for the fact that I actually enjoy playing the game, have a few friends in the community, and make money from it, are reasons that I still continue to play (at tournaments), just much, much less than I used to before.

I'm actually gonna go now, you can PM me or msg me on facebook if u want/need to talk about this more cuz this isn't the topic of the thread (facebook.com/mew2king). I have to study for real though, so later.