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Norcal/Bay Area/DBR:NorCal Nevers: Everything in Moderation. Including Moderation.

choknater

choknater

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Dec 25, 2002
Messages
27,296
Location
Modesto, CA
NNID
choknater
1: Cort ($435.60) (Snake)
2: PC Chris ($237.60) (Snake)
3: Nuro ($118.80) (Snake)
4: Jinx (Metaknight)
5: Solid Jake (Snake)
5: Darc (Snake)

....hahahah
 
HyugaRicdeau

HyugaRicdeau

Baller/Shot-caller
Joined
Jun 4, 2003
Messages
3,883
Location
Portland, OR
Slippi.gg
DRZ#283
Jokes are dumb. Laughing is for fgts.

Hey guys I bought StarCraft yesterday. I never even played it up until now. Someone teach me to **** noobs. There is no greater pleasure in life than just obliterating faces of noobs.
 
W

whiteboyninja

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 2, 2005
Messages
550
Location
Milpitas CA (bay area)
choknater isnt kidding. starcraft is up there if not the top of the list for most skill oriented competitive computer/videogames. it literally takes more tech skill than brawl because micro is so much harder in starcraft than warcraft, and then having to macromanage your base and army, its tough stuff. i used to play that game every day for months, and i never made it past decent.
 
darkatma

darkatma

Smash Hero
Joined
Dec 10, 2005
Messages
5,747
Location
St Louis, Missouri/Fremont, CA
whiteboyninja said:
choknater isnt kidding. starcraft is up there if not the top of the list for most skill oriented competitive computer/videogames. it literally takes more tech skill than brawl melee because micro is so much harder in starcraft than warcraft, and then having to macromanage your base and army, its tough stuff. i used to play that game every day for months, and i never made it past decent.
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fix'd
10char
 
TheZhuKeeper

TheZhuKeeper

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 2, 2007
Messages
2,908
Location
Philadelphia, PA
sidefx said:
yeah cause your opinion is so valued, since you play the game so much and youre so good at it
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well, after playing the game extensively, even though i disagreed with Yuna in the past, i am agreeing with him now in saying that Brawl has a major balance problem. For example, i like the changes made to Peach's moves, and it makes a lot of them more viable, but they took away any killing power she had in Melee. Usmash is he only reliable kill move, but on some characters, (i.e. Lucario or anyone with a decent dair) landing that move is nigh impossible. Then, there are characters like Marth. Even though his range was decreased, his speed was increased, and tipper strength was given to all of his moves, even jabs. He can also KO very well, and can combo into his KO moves. His moves at the tip also aren't affected heavily by the Stale Moves system. A lot of characters in Brawl just don't have any shot of winning against anyone, of course assuming both people are of similar skill level. This game is just a travesty, IMO. If you are gonna play Smash in a competitive enviroment, just keep playing Melee...

-Mike G
 
H

Hostility

Smash Ace
Joined
May 16, 2007
Messages
552
Location
Concord CA
TheZhuKeeper said:
well, after playing the game extensively, even though i disagreed with Yuna in the past, i am agreeing with him now in saying that Brawl has a major balance problem. For example, i like the changes made to Peach's moves, and it makes a lot of them more viable, but they took away any killing power she had in Melee. Usmash is he only reliable kill move, but on some characters, (i.e. Lucario or anyone with a decent dair) landing that move is nigh impossible. Then, there are characters like Marth. Even though his range was decreased, his speed was increased, and tipper strength was given to all of his moves, even jabs. He can also KO very well, and can combo into his KO moves. His moves at the tip also aren't affected heavily by the Stale Moves system. A lot of characters in Brawl just don't have any shot of winning against anyone, of course assuming both people are of similar skill level. This game is just a travesty, IMO. If you are gonna play Smash in a competitive enviroment, just keep playing Melee...

-Mike G
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Balance problem? So far there are way more playable characters in brawl than melee. If you wanna talk about balance problem, why was it that almost 2/3 of the melee cast were low or bottom tier? because the 5 best characters absolutely destroyed the rest of the cast. Seems pretty funny that you point out that brawl has a couple broken characters, but the character imbalance is nothing like what melee had.

Your peach example is awful, Peach is a fast character who can link a lot of her moves together, why should she in addition have a powerful killing attack like a slow heavy character would have? If peach with all her speed and her great ability at racking up damage also had many different options to kill quickly, she would be broken, and regardless, Up smash is not her only kill move, she has fair and Fsmash also. Peach is a good character in brawl.

You are spot on about marth, he's broken, no question. However, I can't think of one fighting game ever which was 100% balanced with no tiers whatsoever. There will always be some characters better than others in a fighting game where each characters have different movesets. But marth in brawl is not nearly as bad as fox or falco or marth or sheik were in melee. The tier gap is much smaller in brawl than in melee.

And what does it even mean when you say "A lot of characters in Brawl just don't have any shot of winning against anyone" that doesn't even make sense. Are you trying to say that every character counters every character in the game? Or that not many characters are playable? Many characters are playable right now in tournament. Lucien just won a tournament with fox, and I placed second with game and watch. Zelgadis has won tournaments with dedede. Azen on the east coast plays ike and a bunch of other characters in tournament. Socal has some good warios like futile, who has beaten DSF's snake in tournament. Reno's best players play rob and donkey kong. These are just a few examples of the tremendous character diversity in brawl. In melee, every region had almost all space animals + marth and sheik with maybe a couple mid tiers. Almost everyone played the same 4 characters. Obviously there are a couple exceptions but overall, there are many more playable characters in brawl for the moment than there are in melee.

Brawl is competitive whether you choose to accept it or not. Just because you don't like it doesn't change that. It's ok not to like brawl, I can certainly understand a preference for a faster game over a slower game like brawl. But don't just make up dumb stuff to try and justify putting down a game that you don't really know much about. You're just making yourself look bad. You play your game, ill play mine and I won't try and come up with bad reasons why people shouldn't play melee. It's fun, it's a good game, I like brawl more. There is nothing wrong with liking one over the other, and both are very competitive.
 
ender

ender

open your parachute
BRoomer
Joined
Oct 7, 2002
Messages
8,027
you'd think if there was a place where no one at all liked you you wouldnt bother going there. guess not.
 
cubaisdeath

cubaisdeath

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 5, 2007
Messages
1,160
Location
Concord
Why do people still create this argument? Brawl is competitive, so is Melee. But unlike Melee, Brawl isn't fun to watch. I hate watching 7 minute matches, its stupid. The only thing that makes brawl fun is teams, because those can't really last for 7 minutes unless its double falco vs double pit or something.

Brawl is heavily imbalanced, I don't care what you say Derek. Because there are 4-5 top/high characters, tons of mid, and about 4-5 low/bottom/yoshi, that makes the top/high THAT much better. The balancing in Brawl is similar to Soul Calibur 3, which is totally unbalanced because 4 characters reign supreme on the others, and completely sh.t on the other characters chests. In some cases I can see where the balance was needed, such as making fox a little lighter, and make his shine slower so you can't do dumb shine tricks. that makes sense, but why did they nerf Ganondorf and Yoshi to the point where ANY character can beat them soundly? They weren't the best before, but now they are way worse. I'm going to use the peach example that everyone likes; Peach's moves didn't truly get nerfed as people think. Sure her downsmash isn't the **** machine it used to be, but now she has increased mobility, in fact one of the best mobility in the game, all her aerials auto cancel, her fsmash got beefed, all her tilts are now usable, and her recovery isn't that bad.

Increasing and decreasing attributes to certain characters from game to game doesn't mean balancing completely. sure, you can say "well duh the game is more balanced because of [some tweak]." But now that the tiers are so spread apart, the only characters that even stand a chance are the top. think about characters like mario, he is one of the most "average" or "balanced" characters in the game....but how do you think he does against wolf, metaknight, snake, or marth?
 
NeighborhoodP

NeighborhoodP

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 24, 2006
Messages
8,199
Location
SoCal
SuperRad said:
NeighborhoodP has to be the most tilt-inducing poster in terms of sheer trollery.
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creative. you're smart.

OH WAIT LEMME TRY:

you'd think if there was a place where no one at all liked you you wouldnt bother going there. guess not.

turns into

you'd think if there was a person no one liked at all, they would have learned to ignore him a long time ago. guess not.

edit: forgot the guess not. WHOOPS.
 
ender

ender

open your parachute
BRoomer
Joined
Oct 7, 2002
Messages
8,027
Ok, so you understand no one likes you. Why are you in this thread?
 
HyugaRicdeau

HyugaRicdeau

Baller/Shot-caller
Joined
Jun 4, 2003
Messages
3,883
Location
Portland, OR
Slippi.gg
DRZ#283
Why do you guys complain about trolls with one hand and then feed them with the other?

Isn't it easier to just NOT POST in response?
 
T

The King

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
681
Professional Darts on ESPN6 is where it's at. Badminton ain't got **** on Darts. Brawl isn't as much fun to watch right now because people are still learning how to beat campers, and campers are still camping so matches are still really campy in general. lol.

And on another note, last I checked, Brawl's balance issues easily rivals that of Melee's balance issues. There were a small handful of characters that could actually win a (real) tournament, a whole bunch of characters that could compete and still place top10 (i.e. the ****ton of mid-tier worthy characters), and some that just kinda sucked. Characters that actually won big melee tournies? Let's see. Fox, Falco, Marth, Sheik (most sheik users relied as much on Fox as they did Sheik to win matchups). Characters which could compete with them, and still place very high but could rarely, if ever, seal the deal? Add another 10+ characters to the list.

To compliment the above paragraph, characters like Luigi, Falcon, Peach, Ice Climbers, Jigglypuff, etc, were all for the most part really strong characters in Melee. None of them had the upperhand against the elite 4 of Melee. Didn't stop them from being able to compete against the best characters and often upset the pre-disposed "counter-matchups".

So far, Brawl has had a large number of characters winning tournies (though granted, no national or multi-regional tournies have really taken place yet). ROB, Snake, MK, Dedede, Sonic, G&W, Lucario, Pit, and Wolf are just characters that come to mind which have won 70+ man tournies since Brawl's release, with tons of the rest of the cast all showing appearances in top3's. And so what if a couple characters (GOD FORBID) became worse in the transition between the games? New physics, new techs, new stages and new matchups. Somebody's gotta be bottom-tier, that's just how it is.

Want a good reason why Brawl is usually boring to watch? We are still really bad at it. All of us still have holes in our offensive/defensive games a mile wide, so we try to compensate for it by not approaching, spamming moves, trying "gay" tactics, etc. Seriously, go back and try to find tournament matches from 2003, tell me how enjoyable those are to watch. THEN go find some tournament matches of the BAD players playing each other in that same 2003 tournament. I promise you, those matches were probably **** to watch as well.

King Out
 
cubaisdeath

cubaisdeath

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 5, 2007
Messages
1,160
Location
Concord
The King said:
So far, Brawl has had a large number of characters winning tournies (though granted, no national or multi-regional tournies have really taken place yet). ROB, Snake, MK, Dedede, Sonic, G&W, Lucario, Pit, and Wolf are just characters that come to mind which have won 70+ man tournies since Brawl's release, with tons of the rest of the cast all showing appearances in top3's. And so what if a couple characters (GOD FORBID) became worse in the transition between the games? New physics, new techs, new stages and new matchups. Somebody's gotta be bottom-tier, that's just how it is.

Want a good reason why Brawl is usually boring to watch? We are still really bad at it. All of us still have holes in our offensive/defensive games a mile wide, so we try to compensate for it by not approaching, spamming moves, trying "gay" tactics, etc. Seriously, go back and try to find tournament matches from 2003, tell me how enjoyable those are to watch. THEN go find some tournament matches of the BAD players playing each other in that same 2003 tournament. I promise you, those matches were probably **** to watch as well.

King Out
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I'm not complaining about the balance or anything, no game, especially a fighting game, is going to be perfectly balanced. You can only come so close to achieve it, but I haven't seen a game be truly balanced yet, and we probably will never witness one. New techniques and discoveries are bound to tweak with the balancing. I mean look at Snake... The reason he is as powerful as he is was because he was meant to be slow and powerful, but we found an exploit to make him kinda fast... and powerful.

We also look at the game differently than the developer, and chances are we are using certain techniques in ways the developers probably didn't think we were going to use them. Its fine though, thats how the game will progress.

Brawl matches are boring to watch yes... but I still like to play the game and thats all that really matters. And yeah, 2003 matches are pretty bad XD Sam vs. Ken on Mute City with items on...the good old days right? LOL
 
P

ProdigyKid

Smash Lord
Joined
May 19, 2006
Messages
1,843
Location
UC Santa Cruz / Santa Clara CA
If we want to complain about a game of imbalanced chars, look at MvC2. It has well over the number of chars in Brawl, yet to be successful, you have to pick 3 out of like 5 chars. Unless you're Justin Wong w/ Cyclops :3

And the competitive scene is still quite fresh. Every fighting game will have gheyness in some form, but people who dislike Brawl are generally upset because a.t.m. it's easier to really ghey compared to Melee.

This reminds me of Magic TCG, especially during the Type 2 Psychatog Phase =P
 
Naota21t

Naota21t

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 15, 2006
Messages
2,507
Location
The Bay Area, CA
ProdigyKid said:
If we want to complain about a game of imbalanced chars, look at MvC2. It has well over the number of chars in Brawl, yet to be successful, you have to pick 3 out of like 5 chars. Unless you're Justin Wong w/ Cyclops :3

And the competitive scene is still quite fresh. Every fighting game will have gheyness in some form, but people who dislike Brawl are generally upset because a.t.m. it's easier to really ghey compared to Melee.

This reminds me of Magic TCG, especially during the Type 2 Psychatog Phase =P
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The reason MvC2 is so popular after all these years is because its super enjoyable to watch. MvC2 has had like the top attendence in Evo for god knows how many years.

And I'd say theres like uhh 8 characters or so to pick from: Storm, Magneto, Cable, Sentinel, CapCom, Dr. Doom, Strider (only w/ Doom), Blackheart. and I'm missing a few of the more ghey characters (aka Spiral)

If you're talking about point characters (ones who don't need CapCom or Doom to ****), then theres Storm, Sent, Mag, Cable, Doom, and maybe Blackheart.

MvC2 is very much like Melee in it's appeal. It might not have super high character variation when it comes to tournaments, but it's really enjoyable to watch and surprisingly technical.
 
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