Next Tier List on 5th June - What do you think we have to expect?

[.AC.]

Ken went to a tournament in Socal after being "coerced" by his crew members (he was told they were going to get something to eat, ended up being driven to a tournament, LOL), but didn't participate in the tournament, and pretty much only sat around watching/talking/playing friendlies.

as far as i know he did enter and lost to tkd and someone else who is ranked,the tourney results are somewhere on aib.

 

[Sephirothdotcom]

IC's and Diddy goin up, probably DDD, and pretty much the A tier takes a hit with Marth Falco and GnW dropping

 

[Popertop]

I hate when people say "I think this is pretty even" with no matchup experience or valid claims as to why,
people need to stop doing that

 

[yummynbeefy]

According to the matchup thread IC's go 30:70 against Snake, don't they? So you'd still have him to worry about.

meta too ya kno

 

[fromundaman]

Wow, why do people keep saying that. It was said one time by some Marth (can't remember who) and everybody throws it around now.

It seems to be a slight advantage to ROB, so any matchup that is truly 50:50 is more even than this one.

Oops, my bad. I remembered seeing it somewhere in one of the two boards' matchup threads (I thought it was Marth, but I could be wrong) and hearing it from a bunch of other people, so I assumed it was truth, since I can't really judge for myself considering I play neither character.

 

[smashkng]

DDD is a huge target that relies on throws, u tilts, and bairs. Every other move that he has is a disrupter, a sort of "GTFO move if you will." His f smash has terrible startup time, his d smash is horrible, and he has his share of horrible match ups.

.

It's always good have and early kill move though it's situational

Wario has a grab release glitch....enough said. Hes good if you can avoid getting grabbed (Melee FTW) but characters like Snake, MK, Marth, and DK all destroy him.



.

The only with advantage matchup are MK and Marth


Snake actually is even or Wario advantage, offstage Wario ***** Snake.

Wario is one of the hardest matchups of Meta Knight due Wario's unpredictability to get racked damage and Meta Knight has NO GRAB RELEASE option on Wario.

Wario can chain grab 0-death on DK so forget DK has advantage .

 

[demonictoonlink]

Meta has a debatable advantage matchup...

 

[Popertop]

It's not a zero death, it's like a 0-120
they can DI the Fsmash you know

and DDD ***** Wario, that guy talking about DDD doesn't know ****.
DDD ***** a lot of characters, pressures by just walking up to you, and has a great offstage gimp.
and he can retreating pivot grab with a **** ton of range, like half a stage worth.

 

[demonictoonlink]

OIC...forgot about DDD...

 

[B!squick]

and DDD ***** Wario

Lol, no. Just, just no.

 

[Shaya]

Dedede and Wario is a very curious match up.

Every statistic, piece of information, etc etc certifies that the match up should be 70:30 or worse (in D3's favour).
Damage output is heavily in D3's favour,
D3 outranges
D3 outlives
D3 kills earlier (and with guaranteed set ups from the grab release...)

It's all come down to Wario's ability to avoid the grab/run out the timer through 'air camping', a fighting style that somewhat or somehow (pick your term) pushes the match up to 50:50 or 60:40 in Wario's favour.
It could be over come in time. Top Warios (Fiction, Reflex, DMG, etc) are still yet to battle it out with the top Dededes (CO18, Seibrik, Atomsk, Lain to maybe?) IIRC. Wario's previous tier placements were heavily criticised due to D3, something that the Wario's feel they've now overcome.

Wario right now is relying on:
D3 has the worst aerial momentum.
Wario's aerial momentum is faster than Dedede's dash speed.
and "That it's really really stage dependant"

Ball is in D3's court, or maybe it's already been hit back over.
East Coast America, the place with the highest spread of high-level MKs and Dededes (successful even in travel) has not really, if ever, been tipped upside down by Wario's presence. With Wario supposibly being one of MK's hardest/most even matchups other than himself, and supposibly beating Dedede, why isn't Wario stepping it up in East Coast?

Maybe my informations wrong, but it's just my view of the whole thing.

Falco was overhyped in the previous tier list, pushing him up to 3rd,
Is this new tier list going to be the same "hype" with Wario coming out 3rd or is it the real deal?

 

[Nic64]

Personally I think KD3 is number 3, but I could see Wario because of the hype he gets...I don't think Falco was ALL hype though, I think in many ways he really has gotten worse since then, not just that he was totally overrated at the time(several characters have improved their matchups against him a lot, pikachu now destroys him, IC's are becoming a more prominent character).

 

[tekkie]

I can only judge for my mains.

Wolf - down
Kirby - probably same
King Dedede - same, or slightly down
Lucario - Up slightly

 

[Red Arremer]

Ball is in D3's court, or maybe it's already been hit back over.
East Coast America, the place with the highest spread of high-level MKs and Dededes (successful even in travel) has not really, if ever, been tipped upside down by Wario's presence. With Wario supposibly being one of MK's hardest/most even matchups other than himself, and supposibly beating Dedede, why isn't Wario stepping it up in East Coast?

Because there's no or only a few top players using Wario in East Coast.

 

[Ant1]

I think Metaknight will reach a level beyond SS
Snake has been revealed to be a weakling, at least by the measuring bar Metaknight has set
Just think kakkarot, M2K has conquered the strongest brawlers in the world and he barely broke a sweat!

 

[B!squick]

M2K is the 9th best character in Brawl, didn't you know?

 

[djm111]

meta too ya kno

According to both character forums Ice Climbers have one of the better matchups against MK.
It's around even, according to both.

 

[Shaya]

Because there's no or only a few top players using Wario in East Coast.

And those few I'm pretty sure lose to the Dededes.

And then the whole argument becomes a stale mate. How can the match up be stated as IN WARIO'S FAVOUR, giving him reason to be 3rd best in the game or whatever... ABOVE dedede, if there is no certifiable highest level play been going on between the two.

I think most people started to think it was 'real' when DSF's D3 lost to Fiction back in February IIRC; I'm pretty sure we all saw that Wario definitely wasn't 70:30 disadvantaged, but to say it's in Wario's advantage? I've seen some some good D3s demolish well known Warios (even if none of these Warios have been notably 'famous' due to lack of tournament winnings).

I saw a video of Tyrant two stocking PhantomX's Wario with D3, whilst we can say that Tyrant has a lot of experience against Fiction, and Phantom seems to be adament about not air camping (I think?) I saw how WELL D3's pivot grab completely obliterates Wario's range and hitting options. Pivot grab 'camping' with D3 I hadn't seen overly exploited up until that point, and I haven't really been convinced of D3 having a disadvantage since... (Wario seems to have issues with pivot boost grab camping from several characters, one of the worst being against Marth)

Anyway... I'm sure I'm overly ignorant about many details, and this isn't a match up discussion thread...

But whilst it was fecicious to have Wario as only 8th on the tier list (in a seperate tier) before hand, him rising to top 4, with the pretence he is close to even with MK, beats D3 (?!?!) and beats Snake (!?!? All I've heard is because he owns him off stage... just like every other character does...?). Well yeah, sorry if I think Wario is being hyped up a little here.

Wario is still an amazing character though.

 

[Alus]

I can only judge for my mains.

Wolf - down
Kirby - probably same
King Dedede - same, or slightly down
Lucario - Up slightly

wait... lucario going up?

wtf is this?

 

[momochuu]

After what Lain has been doing to people, I want to see where ICs will be even more. :x They really do have more potential than I thought and I main them.

 

[Alus]

^^^

you made me

Now i want to see where the ICs Go...

 

[Mr. Wonderful]

i think G&W will take a hard fall, IC's replacing his spot.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

You have a thread/referral/resource?

I find it hard to believe that Ganon's jab is about as slow as Sonic's Forward Smash.

Ganon's jab is 8 frames, but it's 15 frames OoS. So basically, it's as slow as Sonic's Forward Smash OoS.

 

[Popertop]

Shaya, you make a lot of excellent points.

Pivot grabbing ***** Wario, and a D3 that pivot grabs is an entirely different beast to overcome.

It makes it back into the 65-35 range again, against me at least :X. I can't find anything to do against it.

He does beat snake though. Outcamps him.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

After what Lain has been doing to people, I want to see where ICs will be even more. :x They really do have more potential than I thought and I main them.

I wonder how much IC experience M2K has........ Lain beat Ally once too right? I know he gets to play against Ambrose although I THINK Lain went D3 during that match.

 

[xDD-Master]

I also want to know where the climbers will be...

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Mufufufufu.

 

[UncleSam]

i think G&W will take a hard fall, IC's replacing his spot.

IC's won't replace him, but IC's will probably be getting a little boost
Though I have to say, the top half of the tier list seems to be pretty solid

 

[smashkng]

Wario ***** DDD in Norfair with 75-25 0.o . In Lylat, Brinstar and RC it's 60/40 Wario side, everything else except FD is 50/50. Only FD is advantage for DDD with 60/40.

So DDD do NOT **** Wario like no-one else.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Basically, the bigger the vertical area to play around it (via platforms and such), the more of a chance there is for Wario to beat King Dedede. I rather like Pokemon Stadium 1, myself.

Also, Pokemon Trainer needs to make it to Mid Tier.

 

[slikvik]

D3 vs Wario is in D3s favor. I'm not assigning a match-up ratio because its pointless. Wario is a character that is one of the best at not getting grabbed, but D3 has the best grab game. once he does, wario gets chaingrabbed into a grab-release upsmash or uptilt. I still don't see how people say its even when top level D3s are beating top level warios a majority of the time. The only other match-up that comes close in difficulty for wario is mk. mk beats him, but not as badly as D3 beats him. after, mk, his next hardest match-up is debatable between sheik and marth

 

[Turbo Ether]

Because there's no or only a few top players using Wario in East Coast.

The only good East Coast players I can think of that main Wario are Malcolm(NJ) and Slikvik(MD/VA). Wario doesn't get much representation in this region, although a few people are starting to pick him up as a secondary.

Falco was definitely overhyped on the last tier list. His chain grab only works at certain percents, and it's not hard to just not get grabbed by him. Other than that, he has his camping and a really, really good jab. The rest of moveset is mediocre. He might be 5th best.

MK is obviously #1. Snake is still #2 right now. Diddy and Wario compose the rest of the top 4, but may have the potential to surpass Snake in the future.

MK(not in a tier of his own)
Snake
Wario/Diddy
Wario/Diddy
Falco

I think Lucario is underrated and is 9th or 10th best. I think him, ROB and Marth are comparable. Lucario does better against MK than both characters, and like ROB, does ok against Snake as well.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

The only good East Coast players I can think of that main Wario are Malcolm(NJ) and Slikvik(MD/VA).

Does Alabama not count as East Coast?

If it does, then, BAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

 

[Turbo Ether]

Does Alabama not count as East Coast?

If it does, then, BAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

Sorry! I should have said Atlantic North.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Ganon's jab is 8 frames, but it's 15 frames OoS. So basically, it's as slow as Sonic's Forward Smash OoS.

Snics Fsmash is 18 frames not 15 -_-

 

[slikvik]

Does Alabama not count as East Coast?

If it does, then, BAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

You're in the south region with Florida. generally when people say east coast(in the smash world), they mean atlantic north

 

[Kinzer]

Hey Shadow, does that include the charge, or otherwise where/how did you come to the conclusion that it's 18 frames and not 15?

Edit: Oey, I might've forgotten about shield hitstun, so maybe that adds something.

 

[Shaya]

Pokemon Trainer and Sonic will have to go to mid tier.

They're mid tierish character(s).

Charizard is a solid mid tier character,
Squirtle is a Solid Wario (bandana, and his own personalised 'round' oval box, with a waft that slides horizontally instead of vertically....)
and Ivysaur is ... is... pretty mediocre.

Sonic has proven to be a cut above the rest of low tier (averages), and has an over all 'standard' match up spread (40:60 disadvantages), putting him somewhere around Bowser in terms of viability (probably slightly better due to not really getting buttraped by Dedede...)

Oh the joys~.

 

[Red Arremer]

Mufufufufu.

One of the best postings in this thread period.

 

[Teran]

What to expect?

SBR ARE *******! NUBS! SAMUS IS BROKEN CUZ I CAN'T BEET HER!

In retrospect, all I expect is Falco moving down, and Captain Falcon staying exactly where he is.