Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Noipoi]

With E3 not being a thing anymore, do you all still think we'd get a "newcomer blowout" of multiple character reveals in, say, a general Nintendo Direct, or will that kind of thing now be confined to Smash-specific Directs?

I think Nintendo tries to keep the spirit of the summer direct going, even if E3 isn't really a thing anymore. Just look at this last year, we got 3 big Mario games announced at once. Sure part of that was probably to ride the hype of the movie, but still.

I could see them still revealing one or more big deal characters during a June direct, just out of tradition at this point.

 

[Gengar84]

I love the idea of the play between Alphen’s heavy hitting melee attacks that can drain his own health to power up with Shionne’s healing abilities and long range fighting style. I think the two would make for an awesome duo character. Add that to the fact that Alphen can’t even use his flame sword without Shionne’s help story wise and that’s the perfect reason for a tag character. The two even perform combo attacks which is a bit unrealized in Smash.

Velvet has really cool fighting mechanics of her own and has a really unique demonic arm and blade weapons that could be a ton of fun as well.

 

[Guynamednelson]

As someone who's supported Meowth for a LONG time, seeing this kind of hurts a bit as I had always believed Meowth to be a given for a Smash Bros. game. Given his recurring status throughout the anime (which Smash draws heavy inspiration from to pick their Pokémon characters), the idea that the little guy might have actually missed the boat is unbelievable to think about right now...

I think Smash speculation may have a tendency to not notice TPC marketing Pokemon that aren't Whatever New Starter's The Most Human™, but unfortunately it looks like Meowth's no longer going to be one of them. Better hope Gen 10 adds a third regional form for it.

 

[Wonder Smash]

I see the doomslayer as the fps rep before master chief.

Same here at this point.

 

[Gengar84]

Same here at this point.

I agree. While I don’t think it’s a hard stop, I feel like too many people are disregarding the fact that Master Chief and Halo has never been on a Nintendo console. While that doesn’t make it impossible, I would imagine they would prioritize characters of comparable popularity and legacy that don’t have that issue.

I’d love to see Joanna Dark since Perfect Dark and GoldenEye are the two FPS games I most closely relate to Nintendo but I’m probably biased towards RARE. DOOM has had plenty of games on Nintendo consoles but I never really found it synonymous with Nintendo the same way I do with RARE’s shooters.I feel the same way about Killer Instinct for the fighting game genre.

 

[dream1ng]

I agree. While I don’t think it’s a hard stop, I feel like too many people are disregarding the fact that Master Chief and Halo has never been on a Nintendo console. While that doesn’t make it impossible, I would imagine they would prioritize characters of comparable popularity and legacy that don’t have that issue.

I’d love to see Joanna Dark since Perfect Dark and GoldenEye are the two FPS games I most closely relate to Nintendo but I’m probably biased towards RARE. I feel the same way about Killer Instinct for the fighting game genre.

I think it's less disregarding and more disagreeing on the significance. There's no consensus on whether a game is necessary, and if a skin counts as an appearance. That's going to lead to varying opinions off which people build conflicting conclusions.

So far there's been no difference made between fairly minor, spin-off appearances, and a long history of exclusives. Characters can get in all the same, and it doesn't seem to affect chances. Some people draw the line in the sand there, and others say that if having close to nothing is just as good as having ample history, having even less may be sufficient as well.

Same here at this point.

It's news to me there was a point you didn't.

 

[Gengar84]

I think it's less disregarding and more disagreeing on the significance. There's no consensus on whether a game is necessary, and if a skin counts as an appearance. That's going to lead to varying opinions off which people build conflicting conclusions.

So far there's been no difference made between fairly minor, spin-off appearances, and a long history of exclusives. Characters can get in all the same, and it doesn't seem to affect chances. Some people draw the line in the sand there, and others say that if having close to nothing is just as good as having ample history, having even less may be sufficient as well.


It's news to me there was a point you didn't.

That’s fair. To me, the only reason for that limitation is to ensure that people that are primarily Nintendo fans would still have some connection to the character. Master Chief is iconic enough that most gamers know who he is so that part isn’t really a problem. What makes no sense to me is why a minor appearance as a skin in Minecraft would impact the decision at all. I see no logical reason for that. I don’t think there’s a single person who is only a Master Chief fan because he had a skin.

I say either limit it to characters that have had some kind of actual substantial appearance or throw out the limitation altogether. Maybe I’m missing something though, can anyone tell me what the purpose of the Nintendo appearance limitation is if it’s going to be disregarded on a technicality like that? I’m cool with doing away with that restriction entirely as there are plenty of characters I’d love to see that never appeared on Nintendo like Illidan or Zegram but it just doesn’t make sense why they’d keep it at that point.

 

[SPEN18]

I think Nintendo tries to keep the spirit of the summer direct going, even if E3 isn't really a thing anymore. Just look at this last year, we got 3 big Mario games announced at once. Sure part of that was probably to ride the hype of the movie, but still.

I could see them still revealing one or more big deal characters during a June direct, just out of tradition at this point.

A big summer general Direct, potentially with a newcomer trailer and/or first trailer for Smash, is one thing. I was talking whether that would potentially include like 3+ unique newcomer reveals at once. One or two "big deal" characters wouldn't constitute a "blowout" like I was talking about.
I don't think we're likely to see something like Brawl's E3 trailer again. Smash 4 had sets of multiple characters revealed at E3, but it wasn't all concentrated in a single Direct presentation. Ult had EiH as the E3 focus with Ridley as the only newcomer trailer. So without an E3 or other similar event allowing for multiple presentations which showcase newcomers in a short span, maybe it seems less likely we'd get 3+ newcomers revealed around the same time. Which would be a shame, because rapid-fire character reveals can be some of the most fun. They were already moving away from that style regardless of the E3 situation, but it's another nail in the coffin maybe.

 

[Wonder Smash]

It's news to me there was a point you didn't.

I'm always open to the possibility that something could change...but as of right now at this point, I see Doom Slayer as having a bigger chance than Master Chief.

 

[Gengar84]

I'm always open to the possibility that something could change...but as of right now at this point, I see Doom Slayer as having bigger chance than Master Chief.

Doomslayer does have the added bonus of already having a Mii outfit over Master Chief. That shows that Nintendo is open to working with the property.

 

[Noipoi]

A big summer general Direct, potentially with a newcomer trailer and/or first trailer for Smash, is one thing. I was talking whether that would potentially include like 3+ unique newcomer reveals at once. One or two "big deal" characters wouldn't constitute a "blowout" like I was talking about.
I don't think we're likely to see something like Brawl's E3 trailer again. Smash 4 had sets of multiple characters revealed at E3, but it wasn't all concentrated in a single Direct presentation. Ult had EiH as the E3 focus with Ridley as the only newcomer trailer. So without an E3 or other similar event allowing for multiple presentations which showcase newcomers in a short span, maybe it seems less likely we'd get 3+ newcomers revealed around the same time. Which would be a shame, because rapid-fire character reveals can be some of the most fun. They were already moving away from that style regardless of the E3 situation, but it's another nail in the coffin maybe.

Ah, well. In that case then yeah, huge info dumps will most likely be reserved for Smash specific presentations.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Doomslayer does have the added bonus of already having a Mii outfit over Master Chief. That shows that Nintendo is open with working with the property.

Yeah, that and the company contacted Nintendo themselves about it, showing how seriously they wanted Doom Slayer to be a character in Smash.

 

[Gengar84]

The only real hurdle I see for Doomslayer is the amount of gore and violence in DOOM. It’s basically the same issue as Mortal Kombat but to a lesser extent. We did get Bayonetta as a playable character though and that series can be pretty bloody itself so I definitely think they can work around that. Same goes for Mortal Kombat if the lack of presence in Japan isn’t a barrier.

 

[dream1ng]

That’s fair. To me, the only reason for that limitation is to ensure that people that are primarily Nintendo fans would still have some connection to the character.

That makes sense on paper, but I really don't think that's their goal with third-parties. Most of the the ones who have the strongest Nintendo connections are the ones that got in via fan demand, not because they were selected by Sakurai or Nintendo. In theory, had they been for a character with limited association, it would've been them instead.

And then with the others, they're really all over the board in terms of Nintendo connection. More seem to have a pretty loose association than not. The commonality more seems being notable gaming characters in general.

Because, if the goal was to ensure Nintendo fans had a connection to the character, there are better choices to pick than Cloud, Sephiroth, Joker, Terry, Kazuya, etc. I think their goal is actually the opposite; to draw people from other fanbases towards Smash by casting a wide net.

Master Chief is iconic enough that most gamers know who he is so that part isn’t really a problem. What makes no sense to me is why a minor appearance as a skin in Minecraft would impact the decision at all. I see no logical reason for that. I don’t think there’s a single person who is only a Master Chief fan because he had a skin.

I say either limit it to characters that have had some kind of actual substantial appearance or throw out the limitation altogether. Maybe I’m missing something though, can anyone tell me what the purpose of the Nintendo appearance limitation is if it’s going to be disregarded on a technicality like that? I’m cool with doing away with that restriction but it just doesn’t make sense why they’d keep it at that point.

I think that's exactly why people are kinda past the limitation at this point. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

If you're willing to include a character like Joker, who's appearance on a Nintendo system was almost nothing, a spin-off on a dying system, and that character gets priority over dozens with much closer Nintendo ties... what's the point of that one last restriction? It's just ideological at that point. It's not practical.

And the logical extension of questioning it becomes that if something so minor is sufficient, well, a skin would probably be sufficient too. It's almost nothing, but it's not like the scale of attendance correlates to likelihood. It's not like the third-parties we get are those who support Nintendo the hardest. It's wildly inconsistent, there is no correlation. If inclusion was based on Nintendo association, and only those with strong ties to Nintendo got in, then of course, only having a skin in one or two games across all Nintendo platforms would be fatal. But if one low-key spin-off cuts it, then the degree of Nintendo association isn't important. And if association isn't important, is an association-based limitation as important as it's thought to be?

There's almost a contradiction in the ideology. The degree of association isn't important, but no association is? That's basically arbitrary. Which suggests the limiting factor is outdated, misinterpreted, fallible, or nonsensical. And with any of those, that's reason to take it with a grain of salt.

I'm always open to the possibility that something could change...but as of right now at this point, I see Doom Slayer as having a bigger chance than Master Chief.

Yes I know that. But if you say "at this point I believe x", the inference people make is that at another point you believed otherwise.

 

[Perkilator]

Uh... has anyone heard about this??? I have to admit, it WOULD explain quite a lot...

Super Smash Bros. Melee - The Cutting Room Floor

tcrf.net

After thinking about this, I decided to share my Meowth moveset to this thread.

Spoiler

Intro: Meowth, Jessie and James perform their infamous Team Rocket motto pose before Jessie and James jump into the air.

Stance/Idle 1: Meowth stands upright like a normal cat
Idle 2: Meowth scratches its left or right ear
Idle 3: Meowth looks up at the coin on its head

Notable Palette Swaps

1. Meowth (default)
2. White Team Rocket outfit
3. Team Magma Grunt outfit
4. Team Aqua Grunt outfit
5. Team Galactic Grunt outfit
6. Team Plasma Grunt outfit
7. Team Flare Grunt outfit
8. Team Skull Grunt outfit

Walk: Meowth walks like a normal cat
Dash: Meowth runs like a normal cat
Damage: Meowth takes the stance a cat does when hissing
Jump: Meowth jumps like a normal cat
Crouch: Meowth lies down like a normal cat

Normal Attacks
Jab: Fury Swipes; two alternating inward slashes (2% each, small knockback), followed by Meowth swiping multiple times (1-2% each hit, small knockback), finishing with an uppercut slash (4%, OK knockback)
Forward+A: Meowth leans to the side and thrusts both his claws forward (10%, OK knockback). The attack can be angled by the control stick.
Up+A: Meowth swipes the air above himself (6%, OK knockback)
Down+A: Claw Clap; Meowth claps in front of himself while crouching (5%, small knockback)
Dash Attack: Flail; Meowth performs a variation of Diddy Kong’s cartwheel attack (7%, small knockback)
Edge Attack: Tail Whip; Meowth performs a spinning tail slap (9%, OK knockback)
Get-Up Attack: Meowth gets up and kicks on both sides (7%, small knockback)

Aerial Attacks
Air+A: Aerial Ace; an aerial cartwheel (6%, small knockback)
Air Forward+A: Double Kick; Meowth does a spinning drop kick in front of himself (10%, OK knockback)
Air Back + A: Meowth does a reverse spin kick behind himself (9%, OK knockback)
Air Up+A: An overhead kick in an arc (7%, small knockback)
Air Down+A: Night Slash; Meowth slashes downwards with both hands (13% with a meteor effect, OK knockback)

Smash Attacks
Forward+A: Slash; Meowth jumps forward and spins while performing an open-handed slash with each claw (16%, OK knockback)
Up+A: Tri-Attack; Meowth leaps upward and performs a stationary cartwheel, attacking upwards with an open-handed slash, a reverse heel kick, and an uppercut (6% each hit, OK knockback)
Down+A: Meowth slashes along the ground with both claws (17% each hit, OK knockback)

Grab Game
Grab: Meowth grabs the opponent in the chest
Pummel: Meowth headbutts the opponent (2%)
Forwards+Throw: Rock Throw; Meowth tosses his opponent forward (9%, small knockback)
Back+Throw: Reverse Rock Throw; Meowth tosses the opponent behind himself (9%, small knockback)
Up+Throw: Meowth tosses the opponent up and handstand kicks them so high, it makes them blast off (13%, medium knockback)
Down+Throw: Meowth throws the opponent onto the ground and hops over them (7%, OK knockback)

Special Moves
B : Pay Day; Meowth flings a flurry of coins as long as B is held (5% each, small knockback). On the ground, the attack gets smaller and weaker over time. In the air, Meowth instead scatters coins in all directions (5% each, small knockback).
B + Forwards : Thief; Meowth does a backwards flip and steals the opponent’s held item after grabbing onto them (8%, OK knockback). The attack deals more damage when the opponent holds an item.
B + Up : Blast Off!; Meowth is launched high from a small explosion (9% recoil); Meowth's recovery height is determined by how much damage he's taken
B + Down : Sand Attack; Meowth tosses pocket sand behind himself over his shoulder. Upon contact with an opponent, the sand turns into a small cloud that reverses the opponent’s controls. Only one opponent can be affected by sand at a time.

Final Smash: Team Rocket; Team Rocket’s Meowth balloon floats down from the sky and James pulls out an Ultra Hand-like device while Jessie says “Look, up there!”, which also flicks a fighter slightly upward (5%). If it connects, the hand grabs the opponent and James retracts it before the Meowth balloon floats into the air and instantly K.O.’s the opponent. The more damage an opponent has, the harder it is to mash buttons and escape.

Fighter Ability: Hydrophobia
Being a cat, Meowth takes damage in water.

Taunts
Up: “Dat’s right!” Meowth imitates its pose from the first Team Rocket motto
Side: Meowth stretches out and yawns
Down: “I’m da top cat!” Meowth points an index finger at the camera

Winposes
1: “Meowth, dat’s right!” The final pose of the first Team Rocket motto
2: Meowth purrs while imagining itself in a certain someone’s lap
3: Meowth appears to be sleeping, but glares at the camera with one eye while smiling mischievously

Applause: Meowth looks down on the ground, kicks it, and then leaves with a disappointed look on his face
Icon: The Poké Ball series icon
Boxing Ring Title: World's Least Lucky Cat
Star K.O.: “Blasting off agaaaaiiinnn…!”
Victory Music: Victory! Pokémon Series

 

[Gengar84]

That makes sense on paper, but I really don't think that's their goal with third-parties. Most of the the ones who have the strongest Nintendo connections are the ones that got in via fan demand, not because they were selected by Sakurai or Nintendo. In theory, had they been for a character with limited association, it would've been them instead.

And then with the others, they're really all over the board in terms of Nintendo connection. More seem to have a pretty loose association than not. The commonality more seems being notable gaming characters in general.

Because, if the goal was to ensure Nintendo fans had a connection to the character, there are better choices to pick than Cloud, Sephiroth, Joker, Terry, Kazuya, etc. I think their goal is actually the opposite; to draw people from other fanbases towards Smash by casting a wide net.


I think that's exactly why people are kinda past the limitation at this point. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

If you're willing to include a character like Joker, who's appearance on a Nintendo system was almost nothing, a spin-off on a dying system, and that character gets priority over dozens with much closer Nintendo ties... what's the point of that one last restriction? It's just ideological at that point. It's not practical.

And the logical extension of questioning it becomes that if something so minor is sufficient, well, a skin would probably be sufficient too. It's almost nothing, but it's not like the scale of attendance correlates to likelihood. It's not like the third-parties we get are those who support Nintendo the hardest. It's wildly inconsistent, there is no correlation. If inclusion was based on Nintendo association, and only those with strong ties to Nintendo got in, then of course, only having a skin in one or two games across all Nintendo platforms would be fatal. But if one low-key spin-off cuts it, then the degree of Nintendo association isn't important. And if association isn't important, is an association-based limitation as important as it's thought to be?

There's almost a contradiction in the ideology. The degree of association isn't important, but no association is? That's basically arbitrary. Which suggests the limiting factor is outdated, misinterpreted, fallible, or nonsensical. And with any of those, that's reason to take it with a grain of salt.


Yes I know that. But if you say "at this point I believe x", the inference people make is that at another point you believed otherwise.

All good points. I wasn’t trying to argue that Master Chief can’t or shouldn’t get in, just that I think his lack of Nintendo presence would at least be a small factor in the decision. If he was far and away the number one choice, I think that distinction wouldn’t really matter but he does have an equally iconic competing character that doesn’t have that problem. All things being equal, I feel like they would likely lean towards the character with a stronger Nintendo presence but I could always be wrong.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Yes I know that. But if you say "at this point I believe x", the inference people make is that at another point you believed otherwise.

Well I never thought otherwise. I'm just simply referring to what's going on now and the possibility that it could change later.

 

[SPEN18]

Ah, well. In that case then yeah, huge info dumps will most likely be reserved for Smash specific presentations.

I think a big info dump would have a chance to happen in a general Direct early on, either at the initial reveal of the game or, if they do a teaser like for Ult, in the first "real" trailer or Direct showcase soon after that. Not necessarily rapid-fire newcomer reveals, though, as much as I'd love to be wrong on that.

 

[Opossum]

I mean, it wouldn't be the first time Smash speculation drove itself into a corner for no reason.

Prior to Joker and Cloud's addition, neither of them was taken seriously in the slightest because everyone thought we would get more Nintendo-centric or mascot-y characters instead of them. Lloyd is likely due to his popularity among Smash fans but there's always a good chance that Sakurai/Nintendo would want to go with a different choice - possibly someone who's more popular in the Tales fandom.

It's wildly off base to say there's "no reason" for the fanbase to have "driven itself into a corner" with Lloyd. There's a very, VERY tangible reason: Sakurai's own words after Lloyd was added as a costume during Smash 4.

Lloyd:

—The Tales series has 20 years of history, how did you decide on Lloyd for the costume?

Sakurai: I’m not sure if there was any other appropriate choice?

—For example, how about the protagonist of the first game, Cress? [TN: From Tales of Phantasia]

Sakurai: I really think it has to be Lloyd here (laughs). I could have gone down the route of choosing from the first entry in the series, but for old games it’s somewhat common for the editorial supervision from the original creator to make the process difficult.

Lloyd was considered the de facto Tales choice for a Mii Costume. Yes, times change, but focusing on Lloyd is far from arbitrary.

 

[Mamboo07]

The Metal Slug character should be the SV-001 Metal Slug itself. With various squad members driving it. Like Bowser Jr.

View attachment 381604

YES YES YES YES YES

I WANNA DRIVE A TANK AROUND AND FIRE AT MY FOES

 

[SPEN18]

It will probably be based on what fighters actually get revealed early on, as that will largely shape the fandom's perception on what characters get talked about in the community.

Yes, the natures of the early reveals will steer the speculation to a large extent. Though one thing I'd watch out for is that, even if there are only going to be a few unique third party newcomers in base, it's pretty likely that one of them would be revealed very early on, like Snake and Mega Man were. Which, if the third party newcomer is one of the first 1-2 reveals, could lead some to believe the base game newcomers are going to be like the DLC, even though that wouldn't be the correct conclusion to draw from just one reveal. inb4 it happens.

Also the early reveals tend to be among the highest-priority newcomers, in which case they could end up fairly predictable picks that don't tell us a whole lot about what's coming next. Though as we saw with Villager and Ridley, they can also be characters/franchises who would seem obvious in a vacuum and/or in retrospect but were in reality far less predictable due to other factors, such as many people doubting their feasibility at the time.

 

[Ivander]

I still remember when there was that one early Smash Ultimate rumor of Lloyd and Yuri getting in Smash Ultimate with Chun-Li. Sure it didn't happen, but imagine the reception from Tales fans and Smash fans if both did get in together.

But still, I'm honestly surprised we did not get a Tales rep for Smash Ultimate and now with next Smash speculation, there's going to be alot of uncertainty and divisiveness whether the first Tales rep will be Lloyd, Yuri or Alphen/Shionne.

 

[Noipoi]

Yes, the natures of the early reveals will steer the speculation to a large extent.

Member when people thought that Ultimate had a villains theme because both Ridley and K Rool were revealed early on

Though later additions like Sephiroth don’t do a lot to disprove the theory…

 

[Perkilator]

Member when people thought that Ultimate had a villains theme because both Ridley and K Rool were revealed early on

Though later additions like Sephiroth don’t do a lot to disprove the theory…

* cries in Eggman *

 

[Speed Weed]

Do you think they’d go with a third CastleVania character before Bill Rizer? Contra is getting a new Switch game by Wayforward that actually looks really good. I would think that would help his chances quite a bit, especially if it performs well. Fingers crossed on that one.

Seconding others here and saying that I do think some people tend to somewhat overstate how much of a priority Contra really is. I understand that it's a very fondly-remembered series by many and I'm not here to discredit that, and I may be somewhat biased here as a youngin who Was Not There for the series' glory days, but my perspective on it is that it's a series that has always kind of just Been Around and had a solid fanbase, but isn't really one of Konami's tentpole franchises (maybe in the 80s at most) and, when it comes to Japan specifically, isn't really anything more than Decently Well-Liked and is far outclassed in popularity by several other Konami franchises. I understand that to a certain generation, yeah, Contra is super iconic! but in my opinion it's really more of a B-tier series for Konami and I don't think they'd prioritize it over Bomberman or, yes, someone like Alucard.

 

[dream1ng]

Doomslayer does have the added bonus of already having a Mii outfit over Master Chief. That shows that Nintendo is open to working with the property.

I think that's a little less promising when you look at how none of the third-party costumes from 4 actually became fighters in Ultimate. In fact, 4 added Virtua Fighter costumes, then Persona got in instead. 4 added SMRPG costume, then we got Dragon Quest.

I mean yes it's good that they weren't like "Doom is too M-rated to even set foot in Smash", but the correlation between costume and character seems pretty weak atm. For third-parties, at least.

The only real hurdle I see for Doomslayer is the amount of gore and violence in DOOM. It’s basically the same issue as Mortal Kombat but to a lesser extent. We did get Bayonetta as a playable character though and that series can be pretty bloody itself so I definitely think they can work around that. Same goes for Mortal Kombat if the lack of presence in Japan isn’t a barrier.

I think a bigger hurdle is that Doom is not big in Japan at all. You can tone down violence, but Smash so far has been explicitly averse to series that resonate in a highly lopsided way. That's what's ultimately going to keep Mortal Kombat out more than the gore.

And no, having a costume in Smash doesn't suddenly mean Japan is big on Doom any more than the west is now all about Goemon and Tower of Druaga. And yes, I'm aware there is a fanbase for Doom in Japan. There is a fanbase in the west for Sakura Wars. Doesn't mean those things aren't still niche as heck.

All good points. I wasn’t trying to argue that Master Chief can’t or shouldn’t get in, just that I think his lack of Nintendo presence would at least be a small factor in the decision.

I mean his lack of Nintendo presence probably would be one of the facets that is weighed in his consideration. It's certainly not his strong suit, and having a Nintendo presence would also help another of his shortcomings, his visibility and presence in Japan. Plus, with Halo game(s) on a Nintendo console, he'd probably be all the more requested for it, and have gained his (genuine) demand much earlier.

It's just that if it really is a factor of more insubstantial weight, his positives would presumably be able to outweigh it. Not that that would necessarily mean he'd get in, just that that wouldn't immediately cut him off at the knees, and he could still be seriously considered, possibly included, despite that.

If he was far and away the number one choice, I think that distinction wouldn’t really matter but he does have an equally iconic competing character that doesn’t have that problem. All things being equal, I feel like they would likely lean towards the character with a stronger Nintendo presence but I could always be wrong.

There is an argument to be had of equality in iconography between Doom and Halo as games (unfortunately for Doom, I think a lot of its advantages, like influence, are less important factors for Smash inclusion). But tbh, with Doom Slayer and Master Chief as characters, the scales are far more unequal. Master Chief is a much more prolific, identifiable presence than Doom Slayer. I mean, Master Chief is the mascot of one of the big three, and has been since their earliest days in gaming.

I don't think there's anyone who would elicit a bigger pop off in Smash at this point (outside Japan). In the west, Master Chief is up there with, like, Sonic and Link. Doom Slayer is by no means a slouch, he's very well known in his own right (despite people being a little mixed on what his name actually is) but... Chief is in a very, very lofty strata of identifiability.

I mean, Doom Slayer didn't start gaining major demand until Doom 2016 came to Switch. Crash didn't start gaining major demand until the N. Sane Trilogy came to Switch. Dante didn't start gaining major demand until his games were getting ported to Switch. Master Chief has his comparable popularity with almost no Nintendo presence to show for it, and had droves memeing about him in Smash as far back as Brawl.

So I don't think all else actually is equal.

 

[Gengar84]

Seconding others here and saying that I do think some people tend to somewhat overstate how much of a priority Contra really is. I understand that it's a very fondly-remembered series by many and I'm not here to discredit that, and I may be somewhat biased here as a youngin who Was Not There for the series' glory days, but my perspective on it is that it's a series that has always kind of just Been Around and had a solid fanbase, but isn't really one of Konami's tentpole franchises (maybe in the 80s at most) and, when it comes to Japan specifically, isn't really anything more than Decently Well-Liked and is far outclassed in popularity by several other Konami franchises. I understand that to a certain generation, yeah, Contra is super iconic! but in my opinion it's really more of a B-tier series for Konami and I don't think they'd prioritize it over Bomberman or, yes, someone like Alucard.

Yeah, maybe it’s either because I’m almost 40 or I just had a pretty different childhood but when I was a kid, I remember Contra and CastleVania basically being on par with each other. That could be way off since the internet wasn’t a thing back then to get more general opinions but my friends and I all loved Contra. I actually never played much CastleVania so I was more of a Contra guy.

Anyone here my age or older, feel free to correct me if I’m way off base. I just thought Contra was a pretty big deal during the 8 bit and 16 bit eras.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I gotta wonder how annoying it is that i sometimes shill for a series hardly anyone in the western world knows about when i talk about things i want in smash bros.

Because i know nobody knows what the robots im talking about are.

Yeah, maybe it’s either because I’m almost 40 or I just had a pretty different childhood but when I was a kid, I remember Contra and CastleVania basically being on par with each other. That could be way off since the internet wasn’t a thing back then to get more general opinions but my friends and I all loved Contra. I actually never played much CastleVania so I was more of a Contra guy.

Im in my 20's so i cant comment on things from the early 90's but i know people who are older than me tend to hold all the old Konami stuff in really high regard.

 

[Louie G.]

dream1ng is on fire today, pretty much saying everything I want to say. Just want to give a shoutout.

In regards to the prospect of DOOM getting censored for Smash I want to acknowledge that Halo is, all things considered, a pretty tame series. The more sci-fi, alien setting and technology make Halo's weapons and combat would be really easy to bring over to Smash with few accommodations being made. Personally I don't think censorship would restrict DOOM from getting content, but I do think Halo's ease of implementation would be in its individual favor. I stress individual because like, again I'm not trying to judge this in an either or context, I'm assessing a reason why Halo might be chosen independent of any competition.

Even without being on a Nintendo console, it feels decidedly more "Nintendo" in its tone than some of its contemporaries... does that make sense? Not really too far off from something like Metroid at the end of the day. It's no wonder Samus vs Master Chief is up there with Link vs Cloud for dream video game matchups... another point in favor of Master Chief's massive crossover appeal.

Also will echo the response to "disregarding" Chief's absence on Nintendo consoles, I've explained before that I think this boundary was as good as shattered after Cloud and certainly after Joker. I regard it and I dispute it. It's a boundary that will eventually be broken, and that's if Master Chief doesn't end up on a Nintendo console somewhere in between anyway. Which is increasingly possible.

 

[DarthEnderX]

That’s exactly how I’d want it, though maybe it can switch between them on the ground and them in the tank. Or would that work better for Jason & SOPHIA from Blaster Master?

Sophia is too big to be a Fighter. It's like the size of a Landmaster. They should be an AT.


Compared to the size of the Metal Slug. Which, if Fio was about Mario's size, would only be about the size of KRool.

Perfect Dark and GoldenEye are the two FPS games I most closely relate to Nintendo

cough We already have Dark Samus from Metroid Prime.

Member when people thought that Ultimate had a villains theme because both Ridley and K Rool were revealed early on

Though later additions like Sephiroth don’t do a lot to disprove the theory…

Don't forget Kazuya.

 

[Gengar84]

I agree. I think Master Chief would fit in really well in Smash and would be a cool pair up with Samus. If anyone remembers those Monty Oum fan battle videos, those were awesome. I also agree that I never liked the “had to be on Nintendo” restriction. It never really made sense to me to restrict for what seemed like an arbitrary reason. I think both Crash and Master Chief would be cool in Smash because they were both essentially mascots for Nintendo’s rival platforms at one point. Being able to have a match of Mario vs Sonic vs Crash vs Master Chief does sound like a lot of fun despite my lack of personal connection to either Crash or Halo.

 

[Louie G.]

Being able to have a match of Mario vs Sonic vs Crash vs Master Chief does sound like a lot of fun despite my lack of personal connection to either Crash or Halo.

Honestly, I feel like Cloud is almost just as much of a Playstation icon as Crash. FFVII is like the PS1 game, even if Cloud himself isn't exactly a mascot.

Hell, we got Snake and Kazuya too. Adding Crash to that lineup would feel like most of the biggest PS1 games are accounted for.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Hell, we got Snake and Kazuya too. Adding Crash to that lineup would feel like most of the biggest PS1 games are accounted for.

And that might matter, if Cloud was only repping FF7. Instead of the entirety of the FF franchise. Which was Nintendo exclusive for it's first 2 generations.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

People have often joked that Smash bros did a better job making a playstation all stars roster than the actual playstation all stars did.

 

[DarthEnderX]

People have often joked that Smash bros did a better job making a playstation all stars roster than the actual playstation all stars did.

That's literally Hadokeyblade signature.

Edit: Oh wait, that's you.

 

[Louie G.]

And that might matter, if Cloud was only repping FF7. Instead of the entirety of the FF franchise. Which was Nintendo exclusive for it's first 2 generations.

I mean...

Not that it matters anyway, regardless of what he's here to represent that doesn't take away from Cloud's status as one of the most iconic and emblematic Playstation characters. Cloud is here because he's Cloud, and his game is intrinsically tied to its PS1 legacy.

 

[fogbadge]

That's literally Hadokeyblade signature.

View attachment 381606

Edit: Oh wait, that's you.

yeah. who thinks of them when they think of PlayStation

 

[dream1ng]

dream1ng is on fire today, pretty much saying everything I want to say,. Just want to give a shoutout.

In regards to the prospect of DOOM getting censored for Smash I want to acknowledge that Halo is, all things considered, a pretty tame series. The more sci-fi, alien setting and technology make Halo's weapons and combat would be really easy to bring over to Smash with few accommodations being made. Personally I don't think censorship would restrict DOOM from getting content, but I do think Halo's ease of implementation would be in its individual favor. I stress individual because like, again I'm not trying to judge this in an either or context, I'm assessing a reason why Halo might be chosen independent of any competition.

Even without being on a Nintendo console, it feels decidedly more "Nintendo" in its tone than some of its contemporaries... does that make sense? Not really too far off from something like Metroid at the end of the day. It's no wonder Samus vs Master Chief is up there with Link vs Cloud for dream video game matchups... another point in favor of Master Chief's massive crossover appeal.

Also will echo the response to "disregarding" Chief's absence on Nintendo consoles, I've explained before that I think this boundary was as good as shattered after Cloud and certainly after Joker. I regard it and I dispute it. It's a boundary that will eventually be broken, and that's if Master Chief doesn't end up on a Nintendo console somewhere in between anyway. Which is increasingly possible.

Thanks! I'm mostly being held together by caffeine at this point, I'll attribute it to that haha.

I actually think Doom is kinda "Nintendo" too in several regards, which I get is a strange thing to say. Not in its violence or religious aspects, but in its approach to... just being a video game ass video game. It's very "here's the gameplay, it's good gameplay, and oh yeah I guess we have a story too but that's not the point". For the most part the series has been pretty "**** what the other games are doing, **** what the other FPS games do, we're Doom". Obviously they codified a genre, but then when they came back they focused on what Doom was instead of trying to chase trends. I mean, it was an FPS that focused more on its single-player campaign than multiplayer in 2016. Nuts.

Additionally, when it comes to the tone, the mature aspects are obviously out of Nintendo's wheelhouse, but the not-even-trying-for-realism isn't. I mean, you're a (mostly) silent angry **** who punches cyborg demons in the face and you're on Mars. That's ridiculous.

Plus it has kickass music. Which is also a staple of Nintendo games. Even with its current games, whereas many other modern games seem to be deprioritizing that kind of stuff.

Maybe that's why both Chief and Slayer have so successfully caught on as Smash requests. Maybe that's why Doom somehow juxtaposed so well with Animal Crossing. Obviously those games are cut with many other influences, but I do think there's a current of Nintendo DNA in them, if you look hard enough. A few chromosomes, at least.

 

[Ivander]

If we're going to talk about FPS feeling like "Nintendo", why not talk about the FPS game that Sakurai himself said had a Nintendo vibe to it? That game being Half-Life 2.

“The Feel of American Games” – Sakurai’s Famitsu Column Vol 84.85

Sakurai discusses Half-life 2, Halo 2, and the feel of American games.

sourcegaming.info

Sakurai: I was. I don’t think it has the Hollywood movie feeling though. I feel like it has more of a Nintendo vibe.

Interviewer: Nintendo vibe?

 

[Will]

If we're going to talk about FPS feeling like "Nintendo", why not talk about the FPS game that Sakurai himself said had a Nintendo vibe to it? That game being Half-Life 2.

“The Feel of American Games” – Sakurai’s Famitsu Column Vol 84.85

Sakurai discusses Half-life 2, Halo 2, and the feel of American games.

sourcegaming.info

Who interviewed him? Solid Snake?