Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Quillion]

The two main white mages I’d love to see are Princess Garnet from Final Fantasy IX and Shionne from Tales of Arise. Thankfully, both of these characters have more to pull from beyond just healing magic with Garnet using her racket and summons and Shionne using her gun, black magic, and potential pairing with Alphen. I’d like to see each have one healing move if it can be balanced properly though.

It would be better than the overused sword-wielding teen/young adult hero that plagues JRPGs of all kinds admittedly.

I feel like Yuna in FF10 has the best chance by virtue of her story technically being the focus of that game while Tidus's story is surprisingly not focused on that much kinda like Pythra and Rex in XC2. Plus, Yuna starred in her own game where she's undoubtedly the protagonist.

 

[Gengar84]

It would be better than the overused sword-wielding teen/young adult hero that plagues JRPGs of all kinds admittedly.

I feel like Yuna in FF10 has the best chance by virtue of her story technically being the focus of that game while Tidus's story is surprisingly not focused on that much kinda like Pythra and Rex in XC2. Plus, Yuna starred in her own game where she's undoubtedly the protagonist.

I love Final Fantasy X but never cared much for Yuna as a character. I’d still love to see her in Smash because all of her Aeons are awesome and a summoner character would be really cool.

 

[Sucumbio]

Smashboards was acting weird. Did I miss anything?

Just another day in paradise.

This tho...

 

[Geno Boost]

did you miss the part where i described the hearts as effects not attacks? also how dare you claim toad came from nowhere

Toad doesn’t need to be a part of Peach moveset especially the fact that it’s just another type of counter Peach can have something else that would be better

 

[Sucumbio]

And this!!

Come on RE and FF rep!

 

[fogbadge]

Toad doesn’t need to be a part of Peach moveset especially the fact that it’s just another type of counter Peach can have something else that would be better

nothing “needs” to be part of her moveset but the idea that it’s completely made up is just false

besides we all know toad should be playable

 

[Quillion]

nothing “needs” to be part of her moveset but the idea that it’s completely made up is just false

besides we all know toad should be playable

I've always been in favor of Toadsworth replacing Toad in that move. That said, the playable Toad needs to be the good Captain.

 

[Geno Boost]

nothing “needs” to be part of her moveset but the idea that it’s completely made up is just false

besides we all know toad should be playable

Alright prove me wrong
when did Toad ever use spores in any Mario game?

 

[Sucumbio]

and this too? Meow? Go Chun-Li!

 

[fogbadge]

Alright prove me wrong
when did Toad ever use spores in any Mario game?

mario tennis if I recall correctly

yep just checked, Mario tennis 64

 

[Ivander]

Byleth was thought to be the last character in the game and that really pissed people off,

Not true. The 2nd Fighters Pack was revealed on Terry's showcase, before Byleth's reveal. That was probably what kept people from losing all of their **** because they knew more characters were coming after Byleth.

And Min-Min hardly generated any hate, because we were told ahead of time that there was going to be an ARMS character for the first Fighter Pack 2 reveal. And even then, people didn't really lose their cool at the ARMS reveal because it was a new franchise for Smash and one that Sakurai did want in base game Smash Bros, but due to timing, couldn't focus on it at the time. Hence why Rex/Pyra/Mythra were heavily anticipated after Min-Min since Sakurai did want to add a Xenoblade 2 character as well and Xenoblade only had Shulk. Min-Min and Pyra/Mythra hardly got any hate aside from the group of people complaining about "representation" and "horny bait characters".

 

[Gengar84]

Byleth didn’t piss me off but I was a bit deflated in all honesty. I did laugh a bit at the reveal just imagining other people’s reactions though. I loved Three Houses but I’m not a huge fan of avatar characters, especially as Smash reps. I’d have been a lot more excited for Edelgarde or Dimitri. I was still excited about Joker since he was representing a new series that I’ve been a big fan of since the PS2 and he has a cool design.

 

[Geno Boost]

mario tennis if I recall correctly

yep just checked, Mario tennis 64

Alright you got a point

 

[Ivander]

So my idea for skins, which I’ve seen a few other people mention as well, is to have a custom color editor so we can make our own skins. Several other games like Soul Calibur and Warriors Orochi already have this feature and it would allow the alts to focus more on model swaps since we could choose our own colors.

I think Smash should start making DLC outfits for existing characters besides just Miis in the next game. That seems like a huge missed opportunity. There are so many great options and I think they could sell really well.

Custom Colors may not happen because of the 3rd Parties. Sonic and especially Pac-Man in particular really feel like their owners did not want their colors to change much. That's not even counting the possible extra licensing to allow other 3rd Party characters to have their colors edited.

That said, no DLC outfits for non-Mii characters is a missed opportunity. Even if they can't do DLC Alternates for 3rd Party characters, they have plenty of 1st Parties that they could add DLC Alternates for. Although it makes you wonder what exactly may be keeping them from doing DLC Alts.

 

[osby]

Custom Colors may not happen because of the 3rd Parties. Sonic and especially Pac-Man in particular really feel like their owners did not want their colors to change much. That's not even counting the possible extra licensing to allow other 3rd Party characters to have their colors edited.

That said, no DLC outfits for non-Mii characters is a missed opportunity. Even if they can't do DLC Alternates for 3rd Party characters, they have plenty of 1st Parties that they could add DLC Alternates for. Although it makes you wonder what exactly may be keeping them from doing DLC Alts.

This is just a baseless assumption but seeing how every character has precisely 8 alts, it might be because they don't want some characters to have more appearance options than the others.

 

[Gengar84]

This is just a baseless assumption but seeing how every character has precisely 8 alts, it might be because they don't want some characters to have more appearance options than the others.

That’s definitely possible but I think it’s a mistake on their part if true. Some characters just have a lot more to work with as far as alternate costumes go than others. 8 slots is a bit too few even if you do want to keep everyone the same. What happened to poor fire flower Mario?

 

[Diddy Kong]

Yeah, but Mythra already fills the role of the blazing-fast swordsman with inhuman speed. There is nothing Lyn can do that Mythra isn't doing.

They aren't the same characters, so of course Lyn would bring a lot to the table that Mythra doesn't. I for instance don't think Lyn would be that fast, and she'd be the first katana weilder in Smash too. You're only basing this on extremely superficial characteristics. Even Meta Knight could fit under this description.

Though a lot would have to be made up of course cause the GBA sprites of her source material wouldn't quite be enough (compared to say, Ike, who uses many moves actually used in his source games).

Impa's been a recurring secondary since the very beginning (albeit in the manual in that case). Tetra was always an important character for the "Wind Saga". I'd count on those two at least.

Even then, you gotta admit that the actually interesting options are one-shots. It's actually not too different from Kirby having its newer recurring characters Bandana Dee and Galacta Knight having generic and/or copypaste abilities while the actually interesting characters in that franchise are one-shots.

Who is to say what character is interesting and which one isn't? I find Impa interesting, since the very beginning she appeared again in Skyward Sword. I thought a Zelda mainstay character with a revival role as her would be great, and she had the potential to be a archetypical monk fighter with magical abilities and typical Sheikah stealth and alethics as her moveset, but alas. I found her two Hyrule Warriors appearances very interesting too, especially the Age of Calamity version (though I prefer her looks in Skyward Sword and HW1).

Age of Calamity is also the first Zelda spin off that's based around the story of an existing game, an alternative reality of an existing game, and it's the most successful Warriors game too, and Impa is one of the most popular characters in the game.

Sure I see the merits in other Zelda characters, I'd love Ganon, any of the Champions, Skull Kid or Midna, but I think Impa should take priority over them, or just maybe not Ganon.

However Impa and Ganon become increasingly likely if there's a reboot. Cause I could see all Zelda characters but Link and Zelda be kicked out honestly

 

[osby]

That’s definitely possible but I think it’s a mistake on their part if true. Some characters just have a lot more to work with as far as alternate costumes go than others. 8 slots is a bit too few even if you do want to keep everyone the same. What happened to poor fire flower Mario?

I mean yeah, but considering the massive roster size, it makes sense they don't want to expand that too much.

Even adding two new alts would require developing over 170 new ones which would probably add up to some significant work.

 

[Gengar84]

I mean yeah, but considering the massive roster size, it makes sense they don't want to expand that too much.

Even adding two new alts would require developing over 170 new ones which would probably add up to some significant work.

I think that depends if those two extra slots were actual model changes or just palate swaps. I think you could pretty easily make 170 simple color edits in just a few hours, Especially if the work was split between multiple people.

 

[Quillion]

I mean yeah, but considering the massive roster size, it makes sense they don't want to expand that too much.

Even adding two new alts would require developing over 170 new ones which would probably add up to some significant work.

I think that depends if those two extra slots were actual model changes or just palate swaps. I think you could pretty easily make 170 simple color edits in just a few hours, I specially if the work was split between multiple people.

I just want all characters to have a minimum of 8 palettes while only some have more case-by-case. The roster doesn't need this form of socialistic equality.

They aren't the same characters, so of course Lyn would bring a lot to the table that Mythra doesn't. I for instance don't think Lyn would be that fast, and she'd be the first katana weilder in Smash too. You're only basing this on extremely superficial characteristics. Even Meta Knight could fit under this description.

Though a lot would have to be made up of course cause the GBA sprites of her source material wouldn't quite be enough (compared to say, Ike, who uses many moves actually used in his source games).


Who is to say what character is interesting and which one isn't? I find Impa interesting, since the very beginning she appeared again in Skyward Sword. I thought a Zelda mainstay character with a revival role as her would be great, and she had the potential to be a archetypical monk fighter with magical abilities and typical Sheikah stealth and alethics as her moveset, but alas. I found her two Hyrule Warriors appearances very interesting too, especially the Age of Calamity version (though I prefer her looks in Skyward Sword and HW1).

Age of Calamity is also the first Zelda spin off that's based around the story of an existing game, an alternative reality of an existing game, and it's the most successful Warriors game too, and Impa is one of the most popular characters in the game.

Sure I see the merits in other Zelda characters, I'd love Ganon, any of the Champions, Skull Kid or Midna, but I think Impa should take priority over them, or just maybe not Ganon.

However Impa and Ganon become increasingly likely if there's a reboot. Cause I could see all Zelda characters but Link and Zelda be kicked out honestly

What if they make things up and she ends up being similar to Mythra? We've had that problem with Greninja to Sheik and Palutena to Zelda; we don't need another one.

Spin-offs aside, Impa still doesn't do much in any of her secondary appearances. The one-shots are the ones that do everything aside from the trio.

 

[Laniv]

Curious am I the only one who thinks moveset is outdated? Like most of her attacks have no origin and I think Super Princess Peach should be used for her moveset

Yeah, of all the Melee newcomers, I think Peach's is one that shows its age the most, besides Ganondorf. Not all of her moves really "come from nowhere", but she could definitely use a refresh. Personally, I'd just decide "screw it" and make her a full-blown mage.

This post brought to you by Toad for Smash Bros. Campaign

 

[JOJONumber691]

Spin-offs aside, Impa still doesn't do much in any of her secondary appearances. The one-shots are the ones that do everything aside from the trio.

Also Tingle has his own series of Spin-offs, so if we get a new Zelda character Tingle EASILY has the most potential out of everyone.

 

[Quillion]

Yeah, of all the Melee newcomers, I think Peach's is one that shows its age the most, besides Ganondorf. Not all of her moves really "come from nowhere", but she could definitely use a refresh. Personally, I'd just decide "screw it" and make her a full-blown mage.

This post brought to you by Toad for Smash Bros. Campaign

Just replace Toad with Toadsworth, give Up Smash a fire effect, neutral air a whirlwind particle, and down-air a brief crying animation. The Calm vibe is a lost cause as a healing move though.

No need to keep the wheel stone wood, but no need to reinvent it either.

 

[JOJONumber691]

I honestly kinda want Peach to start embracing some of the Smash Tech God things. While Daisy becomes a Simple Character along the lines of Mario and Kirby since those demographics line up far better.

 

[dream1ng]

the backlash WASN'T the characters or the franchise, it was the timing.

I get the Smash community has this hateboner for Fire Emblem

There you go.

Nowhere did I say Byleth at any time would've caused the same furor. Nowhere did I say timing wasn't a factor. It was. It was a storm of factors that contributed to Byleth's reception. Timing, precedent, expectations, hype. But high among them, however, was the one that Sakurai has even addressed and agreed with, being the perception of FE's overabundance on the roster.

The proof is as simple as characters facing backlash solely for being poorly timed or dashing hopes eventually shed that negativity, because timing is transient. Look at Isabelle or Incineroar. But a character can't shed being that character, and among the Smash roster, Byleth and Corrin are still among the least liked.

But I have no energy to keep arguing that newer FE characters get hate for being FE characters. It's one of the most self-evident things within the fanbase so much so that it's become a recurring joke. And if the argument is that scheduled differently, you would've been able to cushion the backlash, which is true, it suggests that backlash is the innate reception to getting a character such as this, and with the proper steps, it can be somewhat mitigated. Which, at this juncture in Smash spec, is also true.

Byleth was thought to be the last character in the game and that really pissed people off

No, by the time of Byleth we were well aware there were additional characters coming. I think they announced that with Terry.

 

[Sucumbio]

Tingle tho?

Nah... Eh maybe ... Haha tingle. I'm always impressed with how the smash devs stylishly bring a character to life ... Getting smashified. Hey he could be crazy strong like Luigi or something or silly but annoying like krool ..

 

[True Blue Warrior]

There you go.

Nowhere did I say Byleth at any time would've caused the same furor. Nowhere did I say timing wasn't a factor. It was. It was a storm of factors that contributed to Byleth's reception. Timing, precedent, expectations, hype. But high among them, however, was the one that Sakurai has even addressed and agreed with, being the perception of FE's overabundance on the roster.

The proof is as simple as characters facing backlash solely for being poorly timed or dashing hopes eventually shed that negativity, because timing is transient. Look at Isabelle or Incineroar. But a character can't shed being that character, and among the Smash roster, Byleth and Corrin are still among the least liked.

But I have no energy to keep arguing that newer FE characters get hate for being FE characters. It's one of the most self-evident things within the fanbase so much so that it's become a recurring joke. And if the argument is that scheduled differently, you would've been able to cushion the backlash, which is true, it suggests that backlash is the innate reception to getting a character such as this, and with the proper steps, it can be somewhat mitigated. Which, at this juncture in Smash spec, is also true.


No, by the time of Byleth we were well aware there were additional characters coming. I think they announced that with Terry.

Honestly if the fifth DLC character was someone like Dixie or Bandana Dee, they would not have gotten anywhere near the 80k+ dislikes Byleth got, I can guarantee you that. Subverting people’s expectation means little as long as it is subverted in favour of something a lot of people actually wanted. If Skull Kid was the fifth DLC character, would we really have a conversation like this?

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I do think Byleth stands out as one of the worst executions of a fighter reveal circa the 4/Ultimate era. I know people with point to the expectations of Dante or the general belief that people were merely upset that it wasn't a prominent third party character (and especially because this was an FE figure), but that only scratches the surface of how badly the whole enterprise was done.

The trailer quite frankly was underwhelming, with the fighter being given away early on and even the delivery of the "too many swordfighters" joke not landing all that well. Pair that with a mystery presentation that had little to offer those that weren't fans of Fire Emblem (no other fighter reveals, nothing close to specific dates for the second pass, and the whole thing not being presented in the context of Direct that showed off other big news) and it seemed like an event designed to maximize the dislike of the reveal.

Nothing justifies harassment or toxicity by fans, but I'm also of the opinion that if the placement of Byleth and Terry had been reversed (with the former shown off the in Sept 2019 Direct and the latter here) then I think you have a lot less overall salt to begin with because the perfect storm of elements that served to enhance the disappointment of another FE character would not be there.

 

[dream1ng]

Honestly if the fifth DLC character was someone like Dixie or Bandana Dee, they would not have gotten anywhere near the 80k+ dislikes Byleth got, I can guarantee you that. Subverting people’s expectation means little as long as it is subverted in favour of something a lot of people actually wanted. If Skull Kid was the fifth DLC character, would we really have a conversation like this?

Yeah, agreed. Subverting expectations is not inherently positive or negative, it depends what the expectations are and what they're being subverted by. Sephiroth subverted a lot of expectations, but was generally quite well received. Same with Joker. A lot of people had negative expectations about the final character, but then Sora subverted them positively.

Now, a lot of people were expecting a third-party to close out the first pass, as it had been preceded by four others, but, frankly, whether first or third-party, if the character was one people actually wanted to see, I think it would've gone down pretty smoothly all things considered.

I do think Byleth stands out as one of the worst executions of a fighter reveal circa the 4/Ultimate era. I know people with point to the expectations of Dante or the general belief that people were merely upset that it wasn't a prominent third party character (and especially because this was an FE figure), but that only scratches the surface of how badly the whole enterprise was done.

The trailer quite frankly was underwhelming, with the fighter being given away early on and even the delivery of the "too many swordfighters" joke not landing all that well. Pair that with a mystery presentation that had little to offer those that weren't fans of Fire Emblem (no other fighter reveals, nothing close to specific dates for the second pass, and the whole thing not being presented in the context of Direct that showed off other big news) and it seemed like an event designed to maximize the dislike of the reveal.

Nothing justifies harassment or toxicity by fans, but I'm also of the opinion that if the placement of Byleth and Terry had been reversed (with the former shown off the in Sept 2019 Direct and the latter here) then I think you have a lot less overall salt to begin with because the perfect storm of elements that served to enhance the disappointment of another FE character would not be there.

It was a convergence of many poor choices together. Though frankly, the theory that that wasn't the original intended way they were going to reveal the character holds, imo, a lot of weight. The spirits around that time weren't in the proper order, suggesting the schedule had been moved around, and the trailer itself is presented as if it's one of those fake-outs that pretends to not be Smash before it's revealed to be Smash. That works in a general presentation, but not in a Smash-specific presentation.

I think the original intention was to show Byleth a month earlier. Though whether at TGA or not, who knows. If that was the intention, it's possible it was moved because they realized that was not the audience to show another FE character to.

Tingle tho?

Nah... Eh maybe ... Haha tingle. I'm always impressed with how the smash devs stylishly bring a character to life ... Getting smashified. Hey he could be crazy strong like Luigi or something or silly but annoying like krool ..

People would be upset Tingle wasn't one of the more requested Zelda characters, but I think just getting a new, original, non-Triforce Zelda character would pave over a lot of bumps. That said, Nintendo has done their best to remove Tingle from prominence, so... it ain't gonna be him.

Though his moveset would probably be pretty outrageous.

 

[Diddy Kong]

What if they make things up and she ends up being similar to Mythra? We've had that problem with Greninja to Sheik and Palutena to Zelda; we don't need another one.

You're the first one I ever seen calling this a "problem". Greninja plays nothing like Sheik, Palutena plays nothing like Zelda. You're simply not speaking sense.

Spin-offs aside, Impa still doesn't do much in any of her secondary appearances. The one-shots are the ones that do everything aside from the trio.

She does, in Skyward Sword. So much in fact she has a double role that's actually the biggest plot twist of said game. She's also active in the game's most famous cutscene.

There's just no way around it, Impa is in many ways the most logical next pick for a Zelda newcomer. It's just an enormous shame she missed out on a great role in Breath of the Wild.

 

[Quillion]

You're the first one I ever seen calling this a "problem". Greninja plays nothing like Sheik, Palutena plays nothing like Zelda. You're simply not speaking sense.

Here are stuff that explain the similarities I posted from an old thread:

Being graceful, feminine spellcasters is one thing, but [Palutena and Zelda] have a distant exploding fire cast, a reflector, and a teleport. And both are floaty and light. It's not just one thing; it's a combination of various things that make them redundant, especially since Palutena had to lose her Mii-like customs out of necessity.

I explained Palutena and Zelda up above, but Sheik and Greninja have some uncomfortable similarities beyond just being ninjas; they both have a vanish move, deceptively long-range forward aerial poke, an upwards drill kick, a rapid jab, a chargeable projectile, and a "spread wings" up Smash among other things.

There's just no way around it, Impa is in many ways the most logical next pick for a Zelda newcomer. It's just an enormous shame she missed out on a great role in Breath of the Wild.

Don't get me wrong, I do agree with that. I just find it unfortunate that the most logical next pick for a Zelda character is mainly that on her recurrent status alone and not for being interesting or heavily marketed.

At least Bandana Dee and Galacta Knight are being marketed even if they're not interesting.

 

[fogbadge]

Here are stuff that explain the similarities I posted from an old thread:

you mean that thread where nobody had a clue what you were on about?

 

[Quillion]

fogbadge : Seriously, how would you feel if we got Waluigi as "the Mario spin-off character", and then we got Toad after that using moves from different spin-offs not in Waluigi's moveset? We can't have two sports/party spin-off representative characters on the roster.

There's a reason I want Captain Toad playable using only things from his game and made up things rather than the standard Toad.

 

[dream1ng]

fogbadge : Seriously, how would you feel if we got Waluigi as "the Mario spin-off character", and then we got Toad after that using moves from different spin-offs not in Waluigi's moveset? We can't have two sports/party spin-off representative characters on the roster.

There's a reason I want Captain Toad playable using only things from his game and made up things rather than the standard Toad.

I would be happy to get both those characters using any moves that make sense for them to be using, idc.

But there are more Mario spin-offs than games in many entire franchises, so there's certainly enough, in theory, to make more than one moveset from.

 

[Quillion]

I would be happy to get both those characters using any moves that make sense for them to be using, idc.

That would be like Peach being revamped to play like Mario with floating while we get Toad added who plays like a fast Mario with poorer jumping, both by virtue of their 3DW appearances.

Characters "using any moves that make sense for them" will undermine Smash's "fighting game first, Nintendo museum second" nature through redundancy. As another example, Ganondorf getting more sword moves and magic projectile specials would make him another Sephiroth.

 

[fogbadge]

fogbadge : Seriously, how would you feel if we got Waluigi as "the Mario spin-off character", and then we got Toad after that using moves from different spin-offs not in Waluigi's moveset? We can't have two sports/party spin-off representative characters on the roster.

There's a reason I want Captain Toad playable using only things from his game and made up things rather than the standard Toad.

i wouldnt care because toad would be playable

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Characters "using any moves that make sense for them" will undermine Smash's "fighting game first, Nintendo museum second" nature through redundancy. As another example, Ganondorf getting more sword moves and magic projectile specials would make him another Sephiroth.

I disagree with this, Ganondorf being a superheavy with higher damaging moves would make him feel different. I mean Sephiroth isn’t Sword Mewtwo just because they are both tall glass cannon characters.

 

[Quillion]

I disagree with this, Ganondorf being a superheavy with higher damaging moves would make him feel different. I mean Sephiroth isn’t Sword Mewtwo just because they are both tall glass cannon characters.

Yeah, but Sephy has very damaging and laggy moves to begin with. Canon-dorf sharing stats and a "general idea" in animations while just having higher weight will still make him a Sephiroth ripoff.

 

[dream1ng]

That would be like Peach being revamped to play like Mario with floating while we get Toad added who plays like a fast Mario with poorer jumping, both by virtue of their 3DW appearances.

No it wouldn't, because what you've done is reduce the characters down to one title from which to draw, and then focused on the aspects that would make them deliberately similar instead of deliberately distinct for the purposes of trying to illustrate how somehow taking from all of the Mario spin-offs would result, apparently, in Toad and Waluigi being derivatives of each other.

But that's the opposite of how original characters are made. You can tell as much by the fact that the characters you dub as imitative, like Zelda and Palutena or Sheik and Greninja all have completely original movesets totally distinct from each other and anyone else. No one is going to confuse them.

Characters "using any moves that make sense for them" will undermine Smash's "fighting game first, Nintendo museum second" nature through redundancy. As another example, Ganondorf getting more sword moves and magic projectile specials would make him another Sephiroth.

Not if you draw the boundaries as literally everyone other than you does, where thematic overlap is not actually being the same.

Because by your logic, if Toad has a Mario Kart and Party themed moveset, and Waluigi has a sport-themed moveset, it's the same thing.

 

[Sucumbio]

I think the fighting game part of Smash is in the mechanics first and then character design second. WIth the only exception being Steve based on them redesigning the stages for his inclusion.

When you make a fg you have dummy models first then you start to build your roster out the craziest hitboxes you're intending to use and from there into mind numbing territory and frankly beyond scope.