Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Wonder Smash]

Just want to say that even Nintendo themselves call Smash Bros a fighting game series:

The Official Home of Kirby™ - Official Game Site - About

Nintendo’s official home for Kirby. Games, videos, and more. Find out all about Kirby and friends.

kirby.nintendo.com

 

[Will]

VGA 2019.

Let’s start this page with some common sense, yeah?

I remember when everyone was dead set on Takamaru and we got Duck Hunt, good times

Takamaru would be so baller.

 

[Louie G.]

Maybe the reason is just insecurity. Insecurity of seeing "Party games" as lesser, causal trash or maybe something prove to the Big Boys Club at FGC that Smash hang with rest of them. I don't know

Based on the way you've talked about this before and the way you phrase this now, this really seems like a personal problem. It's more like you personally don't want Smash to be classified as a fighting game, you seem very spiteful toward the idea. The way you're accusing people of being adverse to admitting Smash is a party game, just in reverse. It doesn't seem like this is a good faith argument and it's a bit silly to hear you try to project it onto others.

I'd like to say also that nobody is denying the party elements of Smash Bros. There's just no reason why a "party fighting game" can't also be a thing, or isn't already very much a thing. You play as a character who goes head to head with other characters, you punch and kick and aim to knock the opponent out. It also has wacky items and random events to spice up and interrupt a match. These aren't elements that anyone is denying exists, but rather most people here agree that this doesn't not disqualify Smash from being a fighting game. If you want to discuss whether or not Smash Bros is a "serious" fighting game, one that should be held in esteem in a competitive or tournament setting, that's another conversation. But those aren't the only games to qualify for a wide encompassing genre which, like many other popular genres, evolves and spreads out into different avenues. Just as there are action RPGs, or puzzle platformers, and so forth. Smash, maybe by accident, pretty much invented a new subgenre.

Is ARMS a fighting game? What about Power Stone? WWE? None of these play like Street Fighter, but I think you'd have a hard time denying they are classified as fighting games. No amount of quirkiness or simplified mechanics really take that away from them. They won't be center stage at EVO, but that doesn't really matter. The intent is clear.

"Party game" is more of a description than a genre - there are games of many genres that appeal to that high energy group environment. Is Mario Kart a racing game? Of course it is, nobody in their right mind would say it isn't, but it's not Gran Turismo. Is Smash a fighting game? Debatable apparently, but it is also a "party game". Nobody should be denying it, I haven't seen anyone here do so either. That's just not a category Smash feels any need to lock itself into, measures have been taken to balance it further and appeal to players who treat it more like a competitive fighter. Sakurai has outright talked about frame data and made a self aware joke about it. Like it or not, the series has willingly adopted this expectation and has played further into it.

So with all that said I feel like the series will continue to speak for itself. Smash's ability to be whatever game people want it to be is probably its greatest strength and whatever genre it is, the only thing that's really important to me is that I love playing it.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Smash is a fighting game with party game elements.

Of course to balance that out we should be having a series of party games with fighting game elements. Capcom needs to step up and having one Street Fighter Party title featuring the cast (M Bison taking your money if you land on the wrong space being optional).

 

[Will]

Smash is a fighting game with party game elements.

Of course to balance that out we should be having a series of party games with fighting game elements. Capcom needs to step up and having one Street Fighter Party title featuring the cast (M Bison taking your money if you land on the wrong space being optional).

Tekken Ball is getting its own spinoff let’s goooooo we’re gonna see Paul Phoenix in a Speedo

 

[Ivander]

Of course to balance that out we should be having a series of party games with fighting game elements. Capcom needs to step up and having one Street Fighter Party title featuring the cast (M Bison taking your money if you land on the wrong space being optional).

I mean, Smash Tour had potential. If they streamlined the board/dice part more towards Mario Party and allowed you to pick a character from the beginning(with Random also being a choice) instead of having no fighters at first and forcing you to collect random fighters on the field, Smash Tour probably could've been more fun.

 

[Perkilator]

I remember when everyone was dead set on Takamaru and we got Duck Hunt, good times

TBH, Takamaru should've been fully playable in Sm4sh as well. Especially since Mysterious Murasame Castle was on 3DS in 2014.

 

[Ivander]

TBH, Takamaru should've been fully playable in Sm4sh as well. Especially since Mysterious Murasame Castle was on 3DS in 2014.

I thought part of the reasoning for Takamaru being speculated was because of the Mysterious Murasame Castle bit on Nintendo Land, which was technically it's first appearance outside Japan IIRC.

 

[Louie G.]

TBH, Takamaru should've been fully playable in Sm4sh as well. Especially since Mysterious Murasame Castle was on 3DS in 2014.

I always thought Takamaru would have been a great contrast for Little Mac, who was fairly obscure overseas and plays to much more western sensibilities. Like come on, he's a boxer from the Bronx. And then Takamaru is a stoic samurai from a beloved classic JP only Famicom game. East vs West, punch is mightier than the sword yadda yadda. It would have been a really fun way to frame it.

It is kind of interesting how that decision process works more one way than it does the other, though. Little Mac's relative obscurity in Japan didn't prevent him from being playable, but Takamaru's absence from the west did. Perhaps it's a matter of accessibility and Sakurai not knowing Murasame Castle was being ported over to 3DS, but it does seem like more emphasis is put on characters being known out west than in Japan. It makes sense since the market is bigger, but just interesting since it seems like most people are under the impression Smash usually works the other way around.

 

[Opossum]

I thought part of the reasoning for Takamaru being speculated was because of the Mysterious Murasame Castle bit on Nintendo Land, which was technically it's first appearance outside Japan IIRC.

Takamaru had been in the general conversation since the late 00s, namely after Samurai Warriors 3. Everything after that just continued to bolster it.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

TBH, Takamaru should've been fully playable in Sm4sh as well. Especially since Mysterious Murasame Castle was on 3DS in 2014.

The project proposal was drafted on April 26th, 2012. The international release of Murasame Castle wouldn't be until May 29th, 2014 (August 7th in US).
Hell, the 3DS release in Japan wouldn't happen until July of 2013.


....come to think of it, Nintendo Land also came after Smash 4's project proposal. So the last thing Takamaru would have had prior to that point would have been Samurai Warriors 3.

 

[AreJay25]

Takamaru always struck me as a "wrong place, wrong time" type of character.

Didn't make it in prior to Smash 4 because his game didn't have an international release.

Didn't make it in during Smash 4 because the international release was way too late.

Didn't make it in Ultimate because "Everyone is here!" which meant not as many resources for base game newcomers, and a majority of the newcomers we did get were longstanding fan requests so he more than likely just wasn't that high up on the priority list.

Maybe next time things will be different.

 

[fogbadge]

View attachment 384649​

VGA 2019.

Let’s start this page with some common sense, yeah?



Takamaru would be so baller.

i don't think the game awards are the best judge of genre

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Takamaru had been in the general conversation since the late 00s, namely after Samurai Warriors 3. Everything after that just continued to bolster it.

Apparently not enough prior to the project proposal since digging a little bit, Sakurai mentioned a lack of popularity in general on why he didn't end up in For. Nothing about having no international presence like the Melee times.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I keep saying this but I kinda feel like Ice Climbers were the one and only time Sakurai added a "Retro rep" (or really, NES era character) just for the sake of that.

Everyone else was either heavily requested by fans (Pit) or, in Sakurai's words, really a "surprise character" (R.O.B, Mr. Game & Watch, Duck Hunt, and yes, even Piranha Plant). It's just that former four characters mentioned here happened to be old.

I think that's just Sakurai changing is terminology over time. Ice Climbers were a "surprise character" before he started calling them "the surprise character".

VGA 2019.

Let’s start this page with some common sense, yeah?

To be fair, VGAs are the same guys that nominated Dave The Diver, a game published by Nexon, for indie game of the year.

But yes, Smash is a fighting game.

I’m at the point id just be happy to get another retro character lol.

I'd kill for more retro characters! Just...none of the ones that Nintendo is missing.

 

[Opossum]

Apparently not enough prior to the project proposal since digging a little bit, Sakurai mentioned a lack of popularity in general on why he didn't end up in For. Nothing about having no international presence like the Melee times.

I mean honestly, unless you were a megaton type request like Mega Man, Ridley, Geno, or (in the west) Little Mac, and considering most big fan congregation sites were here, Gamefaqs, Neogaf, and random YouTube videos, I don't really think Nintendo had their hand on the pulse of the requests pre-ballot, or at least not for the west. Allegedly this even extended to not realizing K. Rool was as popular as he was until the ballot, for whatever that claim is a worth. So a grassroots sort of request like Takamaru really did fly under the radar. It doesn't help that a lot of his support base only happened post-Nintendo Land, when he started getting pushed a lot harder by fans.

He really was the epitome of wrong place, wrong time imo.

 

[Kirbeh]

On the topics of the past couple pages:

Smash is a fighting game. It is also a party game. Being multiple things at once is crazy right?

I want both Mach and Excite Biker. Nothing to do with their place in the speculation scene or Sakurai quotes. I just like them and think they could make for interesting fighters. Add Takamaru too.

Sonic should get Tails, Knuckles and Shadow all at once.

(Yes I am biased, but this isn't meant to be a prediction.)

Just handle them like the spacies. Obviously they should fight differently but you can recycle/edit Sonic's body to build the others and all could at least share the Spin Dash. Plus some similarities between Shadow and Sonic are to be expected even if they opt to make him more unique.

As much as I like Eggman I would still prioritize the others. He should absolutely get in as a boss though and maybe down the line they can make a playable version as DLC.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Sonic should get Tails, Knuckles and Shadow all at once.

(Yes I am biased, but this isn't meant to be a prediction.)

Poor old Amy... always getting skipped over. I do notice she has significantly less talk when it comes to expanding Sonic's representation compared to the above 3.

 

[Will]

i don't think the game awards are the best judge of genre

That’s just, like, your opinion, man.

 

[Ivander]

Poor old Amy... always getting skipped over. I do notice she has significantly less talk when it comes to expanding Sonic's representation compared to the above 3.

I mean, while Amy is the self-proclaimed love interest for Sonic, it's kinda understandable why she gets skipped over the above 3 and Eggman.

• Tails: Sonic's first ally, came out in Sonic the Hedgehog 2 and has been Sonic's best friend who's always been by his side since then.
• Knuckles: Sonic's first rival but eventual friend who's not far from Sonic who starred in Sonic the Hedgehog 3.
• Dr. Eggman: The main antagonist for Sonic the Hedgehog since the first game and is the Bowser to Sonic's Mario, where he's mostly an antagonist, but sometimes will ally with Sonic in certain circumstances.
• Shadow: Sonic's 2nd and remaining rival who started off as an antagonist, but has since become an anti-hero. Is undoubtedly one of the most popular Sonic characters behind Sonic.

Like Amy is popular in her own right and she did star early in Sonic's life with Sonic CD, but it's very understandable why many prioritise the above 4 over her.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Nintendo Tokyo Live Concerts for Zelda and Splatoon!

Also Statue Exhibition for Tears of the Kingdom!

 

[BuckleyTim]

Does the sora amiibo patch come out tomorrow or the day after?

Makes me wonder if we'll get any sort of balancing with the-

I'm gonna stop myself there before I get my hopes up.

 

[Serix]

Just want to say I'm feeling pretty good about the next game if it's (hopefully) a Smash 6. The idea of potentially getting veteran revamps is pretty appealing. They could maybe also allocate more resources to things like better singleplayer or online modes too. Those were some of my biggest gripes with Ultimate.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

I always thought Takamaru would have been a great contrast for Little Mac, who was fairly obscure overseas and plays to much more western sensibilities. Like come on, he's a boxer from the Bronx. And then Takamaru is a stoic samurai from a beloved classic JP only Famicom game. East vs West, punch is mightier than the sword yadda yadda. It would have been a really fun way to frame it.

It is kind of interesting how that decision process works more one way than it does the other, though. Little Mac's relative obscurity in Japan didn't prevent him from being playable, but Takamaru's absence from the west did. Perhaps it's a matter of accessibility and Sakurai not knowing Murasame Castle was being ported over to 3DS, but it does seem like more emphasis is put on characters being known out west than in Japan. It makes sense since the market is bigger, but just interesting since it seems like most people are under the impression Smash usually works the other way around.

I agree with this sentiment, he would've been a great sort of unofficial "rival"

Ideally, both him and Duck Hunt would've been added, and we'd have a 90 character Ultimate roster.

 

[Speed Weed]

It is kind of interesting how that decision process works more one way than it does the other, though. Little Mac's relative obscurity in Japan didn't prevent him from being playable, but Takamaru's absence from the west did. Perhaps it's a matter of accessibility and Sakurai not knowing Murasame Castle was being ported over to 3DS, but it does seem like more emphasis is put on characters being known out west than in Japan. It makes sense since the market is bigger, but just interesting since it seems like most people are under the impression Smash usually works the other way around.

Taking aside the simple fact of the Western market being bigger, best guess I have is the Wii revival + the degree to which Mac was requested in the West was seen by Sakurai as good enough to offset the regional imbalance. It's definitely interesting, but I think in this specific case Sakurai just saw it as the pros outweighing the cons and it being worth taking the plunge as opposed to the JP market simply not mattering. Probably helps that Punch-Out at least still came out in Japan, unlike Murasame's situation until 3DS VC. I think it's interesting, but not too indicative of the potential future addition of stuff that's almost entirely known in one region or another - I think Smash generally takes care to include stuff that's known on both sides of the pond

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

As far as the West vs. Japan in picks, I think its a bit of a push. The West gets a lot of region oriented characters for them in the base game much of the time (Ridley, Little Mac, K Rool to an extent) while the newer DLC worldwide famous fighters do appeal to both areas, but tend to be somewhat more popular and rooted in genres historically bigger in Japan such as the JRPG.

To use a remarkably poor metaphor, the West gets to pick their favorite restaurant somewhat more often while its Japan that's usually picking the toppings when they go to the pizza place everyone likes.

 

[Nabbitfan730]

Based on the way you've talked about this before and the way you phrase this now, this really seems like a personal problem. It's more like you personally don't want Smash to be classified as a fighting game, you seem very spiteful toward the idea. The way you're accusing people of being adverse to admitting Smash is a party game, just in reverse. It doesn't seem like this is a good faith argument and it's a bit silly to hear you try to project it onto others.

I adverse to the classification due many elements of the game and even those involved in development and creation of said games saying otherwise. If i said Mainline Super Mario games/Kirby/Sypro etc were Platformers and notFirst-Person Shooters, is that me having a "personal problem" or calling for how it is?

Maybe you want my disagreement to be more than what actually it is but it is really isn't.

I'd like to say also that nobody is denying the party elements of Smash Bros. There's just no reason why a "party fighting game" can't also be a thing, or isn't already very much a thing.

You play as a character who goes head to head with other characters, you punch and kick and aim to knock the opponent out. It also has wacky items and random events to spice up and interrupt a match.

So like Party games? Mario Party? Ape Escape Pumped & Primal? Pac-Man Party? Crash Bash? All fit that description with their minigames in mind.

Also I said Smash is a Party game with Fighting Game Elements. Never denied the influence

Is ARMS a fighting game? What about Power Stone? WWE? None of these play like Street Fighter, but I think you'd have a hard time denying they are classified as fighting games. No amount of quirkiness or simplified mechanics really take that away from them. They won't be center stage at EVO, but that doesn't really matter. The intent is clear.

Being a fighting games =/= Being Street Fighter. That's not my reasoning why Smash is more Party than Fighting but I'll argue games like ARMS hit that benchmark alot better than Smash. You don't have to reduce the game intensively just to barely hit the competitive mark like Smash.

"Party game" is more of a description than a genre - there are games of many genres that appeal to that high energy group environment.

No, it's a genre: The common definition that they are "video games are commonly designed as a collection of simple minigames, designed to be intuitive and easy to control, and allow for competition between many players". Pretty sure Smash fits like a glove

So with all that said I feel like the series will continue to speak for itself. Smash's ability to be whatever game people want it to be is probably its greatest strength and whatever genre it is, the only thing that's really important to me is that I love playing it.

You think that would be case on paper but arguments, gripes and complaints would say otherwise.
Also if you would love the game regardless of genre classification than then what is your gripe here on Smash being a Party game? Shouldn't bother if that was the case

 

[Pupp135]

Poor old Amy... always getting skipped over. I do notice she has significantly less talk when it comes to expanding Sonic's representation compared to the above 3.

While she’s unlikely, Amy is my most wanted Sonic character, and I love the Super Smash Flash/Bros Crusade mods of her

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I think that's just Sakurai changing is terminology over time. Ice Climbers were a "surprise character" before he started calling them "the surprise character".

To be fair, VGAs are the same guys that nominated Dave The Diver, a game published by Nexon, for indie game of the year.

But yes, Smash is a fighting game.


I'd kill for more retro characters! Just...none of the ones that Nintendo is missing.

View attachment 384651

Personally i would prefer more characters from the 2000's. That decade feels really neglected compared to the 80's, 90's and 2010's.

Despite the fact that the two most hype additions from Ultimate did debut in the 2000's. (Minecraft and Kingdom hearts)

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Smash is a fighting game with party elements.

Smash was literally created as a more accessible fighting game in comparison to arcade fighters out there after Sakurai wrecked someone in KoF.

****, the prototype is Ryu-oh: The Fighting Game, not Ryu-oh: The Party Game.

 

[Nabbitfan730]

500 Messages. I have nothing against Amy. I would definitely prefer over someone like Tails but like choices like Toad or even Bandana Dee, there are just so many better choices over her: Knuckles, Blaze, Shadow, Eggman, Metal, Infinite etc

Speaking on this "fighting game" talk, you know what would be cool? As a surprise character, Honey the Cat was picked as the next Sonic Rep but also a cool reference to Fighting Vipers as well.

 

[Louie G.]

Also if you would love the game regardless of genre classification than then what is your gripe here on Smash being a Party game? Shouldn't bother if that was the case

Your stubbornness is bothering me, not the genre. I don't know why so much of your argument hinges on trying to prove to me that it is a party game, or act like we're offended that you think it's a party game, when I outright admitted that several times - you're just not giving me any reason why "party" and "fighting" aren't BOTH accurate labels for Smash Bros. A game can be more than one thing at a time, Smash Bros is a fighting game and a great party game. Clearly I'm the one less hung up on classification here because I'm not the one trying to insist it's one or the other.

And I know you didn't deny "the influence", because that would be silly, but then what's the argument here? When does influence turn into genre?

No, it's a genre: The common definition that they are "video games are commonly designed as a collection of simple minigames, designed to be intuitive and easy to control, and allow for competition between many players". Pretty sure Smash fits like a glove

Actually I feel like this hurts your point if anything, because you're expecting me to agree that Smash Bros is more like Warioware than it is like Street Fighter. "Intuitive and easy to control" and "allows for competition between many players" applies to like a dozen other genres. And calling Smash Bros a collection of minigames is insincere - there are a bunch of game modes, but we're not going to equate Home Run Contest with the main vs mode.

So if this is the definition that you're trying to sell me on, I disagree with you. I agree that Smash is a party game (and a fighting game) the same way Mario Kart is a party game (and a racing game). There's a reason Smash Bros is so popular at big friend and family gatherings, across all ages. It's a really great party game. It's also a fighting game. That's all, I really don't think that's a disagreeable stance to take from either angle.

Speaking on this "fighting game" talk, you know what would be cool? As a surprise character, Honey the Cat was picked as the next Sonic Rep but also a cool reference to Fighting Vipers as well.

But yeah, you're right this would be cool.

 

[fogbadge]

500 Messages. I have nothing against Amy. I would definitely prefer over someone like Tails but like choices like Toad or even Bandana Dee, there are just so many better choices over her: Knuckles, Blaze, Shadow, Eggman, Metal, Infinite etc

hey, don’t you be taking digs at toad, tails and bandana

 

[Hadokeyblade]

500 Messages. I have nothing against Amy. I would definitely prefer over someone like Tails but like choices like Toad or even Bandana Dee, there are just so many better choices over her: Knuckles, Blaze, Shadow, Eggman, Metal, Infinite etc

Speaking on this "fighting game" talk, you know what would be cool? As a surprise character, Honey the Cat was picked as the next Sonic Rep but also a cool reference to Fighting Vipers as well.

Dont lump Tails in with the other two, he's an actual character

 

[Speed Weed]

Speaking on this "fighting game" talk, you know what would be cool? As a surprise character, Honey the Cat was picked as the next Sonic Rep but also a cool reference to Fighting Vipers as well.

I'd rather just have actual Honey

 

[Will]

Dont lump Tails in with the other two, he's an actual character

Thats just insulting to Captain Toad and Bandana Dee.

 

[fogbadge]

Dont lump Tails in with the other two, he's an actual character

now you’re just being mean

 

[Will]

Speaking on this "fighting game" talk, you know what would be cool? As a surprise character, Honey the Cat was picked as the next Sonic Rep but also a cool reference to Fighting Vipers as well.

You took a major L, didn’t acknowledge it, and followed it up by mentioning the most random SEGA choice, a furry incarnation no less, of all time. That’s wild.

No thanks. candy wasn’t her original name?

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

We all know it's Hornet that we need most anyway.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Dont lump Tails in with the other two, he's an actual character

Okay, for real. It's 2024.

We have a nameless Piranha Plant on the roster.

Can we please stop insisting that Toad and Bandana Waddle Dee (and I'll throw Kamek in there) aren't defined individuals? I can at least understand Toad and since he shares his name with his race but c'mon, Bandana Waddle Dee literally is the only member of his species with that name. If he wasn't just called Waddle Dee in Return to Dreamland (something the remake changed by the way), no one would think he was just some random mook.

Toad and Kamek had starring roles in a major motion picture. They're named and distinct individuals.

I'm starting to question if this is a troll at this point. You don't have to want or like any of these characters, but let's at least acknowledge that the actually ARE characters.



If Yoshi wasn't included in 1999, I'd swear we have this argument for him of all characters.